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Comments
Common knowledge holds that you have better bargaining power if you can find one on the lot - did you find that true? Seems like the people ordering Odysseys are mostly at MSRP.
While my '89 Voyager was pretty good, I really wanted to try another brand anyway, and I really didn't have the energy to walk the lot or try to find a good DC salesperson. The Honda guys were even worse gameplayers. The salesman I landed with at the Nissan dealer was a straight shooter - naturally he quit to go sell Jeeps the week after the van was delivered :-)
Steve, Host
"Are you kidding? Who's going to buy a car at that price in this economy?" card
I think we would have been able to hit or go a bit lower to invoice had it been on the lot - since they get paid more the quicker they move the cars.
If you have the money, this might be the best time to buy a car - because of the really poor October, and November sales to date.
Wow! stop production! Honestly, one complain means nothing. I could have phoned it in from the boredom of my armchair yesterday. Of course, I don't own an armchair so really, it wasn't me.
The cost of making a full change is probably a couple of dollars/vehicle. The bean counters figure this as a cost save over the entire vehicle volume.
Regarding climbing in to the 2nd and 3rd row seats and depressing the unlatch button. I have done that. This is not proof that this or any component works. Components are tested for durability over their life. The first press may have an entirely different effect than the 1000th press. And their may be failure modes which get activated under certain usage conditions.
Please visit the NHTSA (Highway & Transportation Safety) site, there have been several, I re-checked their database, customer complaints of the buckles unlatching over the years.
In my automotive experience it is usually the customer that spots problems which sometimes slip past the company's eyes.
Anyway, peace, I have no quarrel to pick on this board.
As far as customer complaints go it is nearly impossible to analyze their claims directly as engineers very rarely get to see a vehicle with the problem currently occuring. The customer themselves would have attempted some form of repair or the dealer would have already serviced it, disturbing the condition under which the alleged fault occured. Their complaints are used as a tool to begin a preliminary investigation.
Anyway, you hit the nail on the head when you said liability is king.
The Oddy is on a downward slide in reliability and quality if I read all their problem boards correctly.
The Chrysler is improving with each year since their transmission problems have been resolved.
This puts them about even in my books.
Which books are those? Comic books
The Oddy is just an overated, uncomfortable, ugly van with a "magic" seat.
If you read the problem boards, you would see a trend, the pre 99 chrysler/dodge,... are not very good. The post 98 Oddys are not the solid vehicles that Honda is known for making.
I expect some angry retorts from the Oddy people, they have trouble with comparing vehicles, they tend to take it much too personally. Remember people, its just a van.
I know that Honda acknowledged their tranny problems, and have mentioned a fix for it, but I haven't heard of anything like it from Chrysler. I heard rumors that they did fix it in the last redesign, but I couldn't verify.
I'm not trying to ding DCs, I'm just curious as to whether or not Chrysler got around to adressing that long standing problem.
Thanks!
Honda recently had to lengthen their tranny warranty to seven years on some models of the Odyssey to waylay customer concerns too, so I'm not sure if the extended Chrysler warranty is a sign of confidence, or admission.
Hard to read with these car companies.
They did before!
The important thing to note here is that Honda admitted the problem and subsequently fixed it, after a little over 3 years of production. While I agree they could/should have covered the 99 model in their extended warranty as well, they have at least done more than some car manufacturers in the area of defect transmissions.
Although our Sebring was trouble free, our earlier Concorde was anything but, I was pushing heavily for the Honda. Checking out the new Dodge first, my wife was wowed by the power door and liftgate, the removable center console and the relatively nice leather interior (ES model). I was impressed with the 4-wheel discs, touring suspension with 17" Michelins and smoothe and torquey 3.8L. Still, the Honda seemed like the sensible choice.
Next we looked at the Ford and ruled it out immediately. Nowhere as nicely appointed as the Dodge, it also seemed "clunky" in appearance and driving dynamics. Disappointing.
Last stop, Honda. The dealer had two Oddessy's available and was proud of that, pricewise! Without leather, the dealer had built the aditional sticker up to 32k, with high-dollar items like floormats, mud guards, hood visor, a lot of crap! OK, we'll take a drive. Less torquey than the Dodge, but once the RPM's built, it moved along well. Seemed noisy, though. Back at the lot, we climbed all over it. Drum brakes in back, no leather available from the factory (and $1800 from the dealer!), poor stereo and less than substantial feeling power doors that seemed less cooperative than Dodge's. Loved the "magic" seat, however, and there was no arguing the Honda reputation and resale value. However, once the dealer told me they wouldn't budge off the add on's prices, and ordering a van in the color we wanted would result in an "indefinite" wait!
Back to Dodge and we drove out in a loaded to the gills GC ES, at almost 7k off sticker! Two years and 28000 miles later, we made the right choice. Only significant problem was a squealing from the rear brakes at 10k miles. Dealer claimed to rear pads were glazed due to driving with the emergency brake on. No Way! Only possibility was recent mountain trip with a full load, probably cooked the brakes coming down the mountain. Dealer got the pads covered under warranty, I paid the labor ($175) and drove off questioning the Dodge decision. 18k miles later and that has been the only blemish. I'm constantly amazed at the Van's handling and poise at highway speeds with a full load. Just returned from a 1300 mile trip to FLA, all interstate at 80+ mph. As stable as any full-size sedan I've driven, minus the BMW and Mercedes class vehicles.
Overall, I can't be happier with the Dodge and now that they are available with a factory moonroof and DVD entertainment system, we may be looking for a new one.
Like many others, I found the Ody interior to be too spare, though I like the simplicity of controls. I haven't seen many mentions here, but I found the Ody stereo to be a joke, and I would have replaced it immediately if I bought the Ody, whereas the TC with Infinity speakers, etc. blows it away. I put on a lot of miles so I care a lot about the audio setup. Also, we all(there were four of us) found the overall noise level to be much lower in the TC, with vastly more comfortable seats. I realize that to some extent this is a matter of opinion, but the Ody seats are flat, no side bolsters at all, though the seatback is OK. In driving, I found the Ody to feel more top-heavy and van-like, I agree with majority of reviewers that the T&C ride is head and shoulders above the competition.
Pros for the Odyssey IMO, were the feeling of size inside. The large expanses of glass and high straight roof make it feel huge. The engine is very nice and quiet, I think VTEC is great, but really needs a manual tranny. One needs to really keep the hammer down to achieve 245 hp. Nevertheless, an excellent(and nearly silent) engine. The 3rd seat is nifty, but I don't imagine folding or removing the seat very often at all. The tight turning radius would clearly come in handy as well.
I had actually put down a deposit on the Ody, because I had tried every other MV besides the Chrysler. I hadn't checked the Chrysler because I've never had a particularly good impression of the company, and the old MV's clearly had some issues, but I decided I had to check out the granddaddy of MV's before closing the deal, and as I said earlier, the ride blew us away. Then I checked JD Power for reliability, and when I found that the T&C was rated equal to ODY in mechanical quality and better in body & interior quality, my choice was made.
Sorry for the lengthy post, but I thought I'd share my $.02
The Chrysler dealers were slimy dishonest weasels, but unfortunately I couldn't beat their price at the other relatively close dealerships, but they definitely will never receive my service dollars.
...and my dealer is the best I have ever dealt with. He is a small dealer in the Boston area and is very much customer oriented. From some of the posts I've read he must be a rare find.
Happy motoring,
Lee B.
I like the DGC sport with 3.8, upgraded speakers, split rear seats. I priced the GC at around 28. I liked the 0% financing Dodge offered and the free DVD player plus I was able to get a discount of 1% under dealer cost. I wife wanting to test drive the Ody. We went to our local dealer and found an EX/L with the DVD system in the color we liked. The Ody contained heated seats, side air bags plus a host of other features that the GC does not have or are additional options. The Ody
listed for 30,360. The dealers advertised price was 29,260. My final price was 28,250!
As other have mentioned, the radio stinks for a $30,000 van and the controls on the steering wheel and the window controls do not light up. But for the price, the Ody offer much more than the Dodge. (I still like the look of the GC better) but I had to go with the Ody. I hope I will learn to love it.
I do not drive either a DC or Honda van but do follow this message board. There is all this talk of reliability and depreciation. If you keep a vehicle long enough depreciation becomes a non-issue. Read and listen to the so called "experts" and you will know that the least expensive way of ownership is to keep a vehicle long after depreciation is an issue. Many people (me included) buy new vehicles WAY too often. I really do believe lots of people get sucked into buying an Odyssey because of what they read in the press. Spend your effort searching boards such as these and owner comments on other sites. Once you have a bad experience with your $30,000 darling you are more apt to spill your guts on one of these boards. Likewise, happy drivers will form a defensive line around their favorites. I have found Consumer Reports (I have subscribed for many years) to be nothing more than another opinion, especially the frequency of repair.
What my rambling is saying is that get ALL the information from a lot of sources and do not believe everything you read.
DC vans are just fine, I'm sure. The one thing I do notice (brought to light by another poster) is that DC owners don't stick around here too long. The first 60k on any new vehicle is easy. What happens after that is a whole different story. While Honda is not immune to problems, as their recent tranny issues attest, they do seem to hold people's attention longer (an observation). Time will tell for the recent versions of MVs by Honda and DC.
I am looking to replace my 1993 T&C FWD (~85000 miles, no tranny problem so far thank heavens!). While I love my van, I am looking at both the 2003 T&C and Odyssey. One of my chief complaint with Chrysler is that the second row captain's chairs are fixed, they don't even move aft/forward. I actually like the set up in Honda where you can have the middle seat both ways but don't care much for the magic seat. The Honda is not as luxurious as a T&C, however it has all the essentials minus the overhead console. Do any of you recommend good dealerships in the central maryland area?. I keep my cars for a long time, and this time around it seems to me luxury of T&C Ltd doesn't warrant the difference in price (and I hate the gaudy wheels!). Thanks in advance.
I had a 1996 Town & Country LXi and was embarrassed everyday that either my wife or I would be driving around a car with floral designed GOLD wheels UGGGG!!! But to each his own!
Oh but for advice on the buying process, you can basically get a T&C LTD for around $31,000, where an EX-L Odyssey is around $28,800. So the Honda is cheaper and will probably hold its value a little better in the short run, but the T&C does have many features that the Odyssey doesn't. The T&C has:
1) 2 position memory seats, mirrors, radio presets
2) 6 disc CD changer
3) 3 zone digital automatic climate control
4) Overhead console (same as '93)
5) 4-way power passenger seat
6) Removable center console
7) Power trunk
8) Optional power pedals with memory
9) Optional sunroof
10) Optional load-leveling suspension
But in the end, the Honda may still be the better value to you. It's up to you how much you value the above luxury features. If you end up with Odyssey, good luck and I'm sure you'll be happy; same goes for the T&C if you go that route. I for one am trading the T&C on an Acura, so maybe I shouldn't talk :-)
But yes, movable fore-aft bucket seats would be nice, although I must say, getting into the third row in a Chrysler is much easier with their flip forward bucket seats, which I believe your '93 has.
One more thing to note is, if you really don't like the Limited wheels, the LXi may be a better fit. Minus the extra Limited luxuries like memory seats and the chrome wheels, the LXi is more comparable to an Ody EX-L than a T&C Limited is to an Ody EX-L.
With an LXi, you still keep the automatic dimming mirrors, automatic headlights, triple zone digital climate control, heated leather seats, etc.
But again, whatever choice you make, it won't be a bad one!
The dealer is Foley Chrysler in North Quincy. If you take Squantum St. east from the SE Expressway, you will drive right into their front door. The Sales Mgr. is Rich Snyder and the Service Mgr. is Paul Sutherland. Their phone is 617 328 5400.
I knew Paul because our wives used to work together. When I was looking for my '01 Sebring convertible last year, Paul introduced me to Rich. A couple of weeks ago I picked up my '03 T&C. I haven't had any problems with either car yet but I have no doubt that I would be satisfied with the outcome.
I live in Bridgewater and am moving to North Attleborough in the spring but will continue to take both vehicles to Foley for maintenance and service.
Good Luck,
Lee B.
I posted all the options on my LXi above, and still came in below the Odyssey price.
At one time I hated Chrysler products. I now have a 2001 Sebring Limited convertible and a 2003 T&C Limited. So far they are great vehicles. Consumer Reports reviews are good on Chrysler these days.
On the Toyota side, compared with the Sebring convertible look at some of the issues with the Solara convertible. It has its share of problems.
Lee B.