Ford C-MAX
Ford's newest minivan is scheduled for a US release in Fall of 2011, but you most likely will see it at auto shows soon. Talk about the C-MAX here!
Detroit 2011: Ford CMAX Seven-Passenger Wagon Coming to America
Detroit 2011: Ford CMAX Seven-Passenger Wagon Coming to America
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More importantly may be the hip and legroom, so that's why you really need to test drive, as well as test drive to really compare the driving differences. Then to me there's the reliability issue with the C-Max as being a first model year, as compared to a Prius whose line has been around for ages.
Personally I'd wait a year before buying a C-Max and let others work out the bugs. I bought a used Prius for about $13K that I've had for a few years now without problems.
If either the C-Max or Prius V came out with a third row option I might be interested, plus I'd like to see the next generation Prius that will be out in 2015. My Prius is Gen II, as I never liked the dash "flying buttress" center console of the Gen III, plus the Gen II seemed more solid inside. I consistently average in the upper 40s MPG with the Gen II Prius and space-wise it fits my needs 95% of the time (the other 5% of the time I wish I had a little more space and a third row)
Some distinct likes and dislikes:
likes:
-lots of acceleration power; feels almost sporty
-less road noise than prius (and the prius is pretty good on that front)
-analog speed gauge!
-seating is incredibly comfortable; slightly more-so than the prius
-hidden storage compartments under passenger floormats are pretty nifty
-built-in 115V house-style power outlet
-ability to restrict a 2nd key to, for example, not be able to use the radio or limit max speed; great for teenage drivers
dislikes:
-braking was EXTREMELY touchy. Some of this may be due to it being brand new, but having driven equally new Prius models that didn't feel that touchy, I'm not so sure. So touchy that it was almost difficult to do a smooth stop.
-Rear compartment has a large carpet "hump." Kinda awkward to imagine loading heavy/large cargo in this vehicle due to this, but it is definitely VERY roomy. (There is a storage compartment hidden under this, but I personally would rather see the bumper up at the same level as this like in the prius)
-on base model, right screen can only display leaves or compass. Almost useless. (Other package options add more functionality)
-not on the model I tested, but apparently the sunroof DOES NOT OPEN!
-lack of places to set items down. Sure, the glovebox is roomy, but sometimes it's nice to have a place to just set some paperwork or whatever small purchases down. The base model has a very tiny area in front of the radio screen, but adding ANY options to the car and this is replaced with controls.
-hybrid system gauges are somewhat difficult to interpret and not NEARLY as intuitive as the prius. With some getting used to, they display even more information, but it definitely takes more effort to interpret.
-Mainly an aesthetic issue, but why did they put gear indicators next to the shifter that are just painted on and don't indicate the gear? You have to look below the speed gauge to see what gear you are in; will be easy to get use do with some time, but I kept finding myself looking at the painted letters next to the shifter itself and being annoyed that they were non-functional (they don't even line up with the driving mode you are in!)
-When I asked about how easy it is to get at the spark plugs to change them, the salesperson said "good luck with that" and indicated that Ford does not recommend self-service due to the high-voltage cables running throughout the engine. I don't know how much truth there is to that, but it was something of a turn-off for the sales guy to be saying. The engine compartment was in fact rather busy looking, and at a quick look I was not sure how to do basic servicing that is usually pretty obvious, other than changing fluids which appeared to be all easily accessible. (The Prius' engine compartment is simple by comparison)
Plus...RWD hybrid braking ONLY would add substantially to wintertime stability.
Also, since you have a LEAF, can you estimate your dollar per mile cost for driving the LEAF? Is there some sort of energy counter on the charger, so you can tell how many KWHs are being used per month to charge the LEAF, and then can extrapolate that amount from your electric bill to see the true electric cost.
From what I've read online, $.04 per mile is about the cost per mile for the LEAF, but I wonder if people are prorating their entire electric bill to determine that cost? So if the total KWH used for a month was 1500 and 500 KWHs was from the LEAF, if the total electric bill was $150, then you'd have to say $50 was for the LEAF, since that includes the taxes, transmission costs, etc... for the LEAF's 1/3 of the electric bill. You couldn't just look at a $0.07 per KWH cost and say the LEAF only cost $35 for that month instead of $50. So that's what I mean about the total electricity cost.
On the LEAF, your listing of the $.04 per mile translates to a $.12 utility charge per kWh (national average) as well as the car getting only 3 miles per kWh. For me, living in a 4 season climate, I've averaged 4.7 kWh (has been as high as 5.7) per mile (the LEAF shows this on the dash as well as you can access it online) and my fixed electricity rate (through next April) is only $.066 per kWh so it's only $.014 per mile so my daily 30 mile commute costs me $.42 per day versus $7.875 for something that gets 16 MPG on $4.20/gal mid-grade gas (required for the minivan) or $4.285 for the 28 MPG Miata on regular $4/gal gas. As far as the other costs for electricity, the distribution, administration fees, etc. are not variable in our area so I can look at just the incremental costs and have used prior bills to get ballparks figures on how much extra the LEAF costs me and it's not much -- some folks have separate meters from the utility as well as devices that will measure how much the 'charger' takes but these are such small amounts I haven't bothered. As my commute is more than the 21 mile electric only range for the Energi it would be a mix of EV and gas use so makes the calculations more difficult.
I'm a bit more concerned over how much storage space the Energi loses; it's stated at 5 cu. ft. but from one photo it looked like the liftover under the hatch would be much higher so we'll see when it comes out. I also should mention that our family has 4 cars and 3 drivers so my calculations for the Energi assumes dropping two gas only cars and using the Energi just myself which wouldn't necessarily be the case as my wife has a shorter commute and uses our LEAF the most (at least currently) and may switch her over to the Energi as her commute could be full under electric power. Many LEAF owners have a Prius or Volt as well and I would think that some could add/trade for a C-Max as it offers more utility -- which model depends on your driving patterns, etc. but if you already have an L2 charger (which we do) it does make it more convenient to go for the Energi.
And I'm still a little confused on how you're calculating the cost of electricity for charging the LEAF. You said, "as well as the car getting only 3 miles per kWh. For me, living in a 4 season climate, I've averaged 4.7 kWh (has been as high as 5.7) per mile."
You used 3 miles per kwh and then said you averaged about 4.7-5.7 kwh per mile, so is it miles/kwh or kwh/mile? It can't be both. I'm assuming it's miles/kwh because 5 kwh/mile for 30 miles at $0.066 = $9.9, but then if you're saying the car's computer calculated that the 30 mile trip used 6 kwh that would be $0.396 for the 30 mile trip, which makes more sense.
Also, are you just using the car's estimate of a kwh per mile and then just multiplying that by the kwh generation charge on your electric bill? If so, then to me that's really underestimating the true cost. The car is only estimating the kwh usage per mile, as it's based on driving conditions, driving style, etc... Sort of like using a car's MPG computer estimate, it probably reads higher. That's why with a gas car, you reset your trip odd, fill up, and then calculate MPG manually, not based on the trip computer.
Then if you're only using the cost per kwh as a multiplier that seems off too. So you're saying that no matter how much electricity you use, the distribution cost is the same. So if you use 2000 kwh one month and the next month go on vacation and use 100 kwh for the month, the distribution cost, taxes, fees, etc would all be identical?
In our area of Ohio, distribution costs are about 25% of the electric bill and then when you add in the fees, taxes, etc, so about 2/3 of the cost is generation and the rest is distribution, taxes and fees based on the usage. That's why to me, the only way to accurately determine the cost of charging the LEAF would be to have some sort of meter on the inverter going into the LEAF adding up all the kwh flowing into the LEAF. Plus even if the LEAF's computer indicates it only used (for example) 20 kwh to drive 100 miles, when you plug the LEAF into your house it probably will take more than 20 kwh of electricity to fully recharge the LEAF's battery.
So to me that's why I think a $0.04/mile is a more accurate cost of the amount of electricity versus the $0.014 that you're using because you have to not only prorate (for most people at least) the cost of transmission, taxes, fees, as well as the true kwh used to recharge the LEAF, as compared to the LEAF's computer calculated usage. It's still probably costing you less than the average person to charge your LEAF, but I just think it's more than $0.014 per mile.
A LEAF after tax credits still costs about $5,000 more than a Prius, so even if we split the difference between $0.04 and $0.014 per mile and say it costs $0.027 per mile that would be a cost of $270 for 10,000 miles driven for the LEAF as compared to $800 to the Prius (at 50mpg & $4.00/gal gas) or $1,250 for a Honda Fit, Nissan Versa, Focus, etc averaging 32mpg at $4.00/gal.
So a LEAF will save $530/year compared to a Prius and $980/year compared to a Fit/Versa/Etc. The MSRP of a LEAF is $35,500 ($28,000 after tax incentive), the Prius $24,500 and Fit/Versa/Etc about $16,500, or about $3,500 more than the Prius or $11,500 more than a Fit/Versa/Etc.
You'd save about $1,000 per year on gas as compared to a Fit/Versa/Etc, or about an 11 year payback, or about $530 per year as compared to a Prius, or about a 6.6 year payback, but considering the size and capability of the LEAF, it would compare more closely to a Fit/Versa/etc sized vehicle.
You're right in that every situation is different and it depends on the vehicle you're replacing or if you're deciding to buy or not to buy. For me, I already own a Honda Fit (commuter/around town car) and Prius (family road trip car), both about 5 years old, so in comparing a Fit to the LEAF. If I were to replace my older Prius, the C-Max while an option, doesn't have significantly more cargo room (25CuFt vs 21CuFt) and costs more than a regular (not "V") Prius. The calculation between a plug-in or regular Prius or C-Max gets more complicated because it's hard to measure the plug-in home charging savings vs the thousands of dollars in up front cost.
There's a lot of factors when comparing cars, but electric cars and especially plug-ins have made the comparison much more difficult. I've been thinking about this a lot, so sorry for the long post of me trying to wrap my arms around all this.
It is 4.7 miles/kWh @ $0.066 rate so $0.014 per mile, some folks out west have solar on their roofs so they actually sell back electricity to the utility but that's a whole 'nother calculation based on solar panel costs, etc. My utility (as most others) will show you a comparison of what you used the same time prior year but of course with temps, etc. being different things can vary a bit. I've checked a few months and I've averaged about 750 miles driven per month and the extra electric cost fluctuates between $10 and $12 (so between $0.0133 an $0.016 per mile driven) depending on the weather (cooler months you get better mileage); trying to detail that any further, some states will give you a separate meter (at homeowner expense) but with the low rates and usage its not worth it for me --- remember mine is fixed no matter what time of day I charge it (although I typically would have it timed to turn on during off peak hours); I've heard some off-peak rates much lower than $0.066 -- some as low as $0.015!! so as always, just like gas mileage it will vary.
Also, in the case of IL, our IL EPA has a 10% MSRP cash rebate on EV's so it was another $3,750 off as well as a 50% rebate for the L2 charger in our garage -- with a trade-in of a 6 year old Mazda3 hatch my out of pocket (before taxes, license fees) was about $17K. Plus remember, the LEAF is a full EV so no gas engine related maintenance (my first 6 months was just a free tire rotation, at 1 year they inspect the battery and another tire rotation).
By the way, not sure if you knew it but Honda is offering a lease only Fit EV as well ... small numbers but they've chosen to test the waters on full EV's that way versus others like Nissan and Ford who will offer them nationwide.
We love our LEAF and driving a second car capable of going a full commute in EV mode (some speculate that Ford's estimate for the C-Max Energi plug-is very conservative at 21 miles) would mean driving M-F without ANY gas required as well as having the range with one of these cars to go much further -- the caveat being the reduced cargo room for the extra batteries (in the C-Max Energi) so we'll see.
Right now, just like the early cell phones, full EV's as well as plug-in hybrids ARE more expensive so some will wait for early adopters. After taking into account that my state was offering incentives I took the plunge and plan that when my '12 is 10 years old all I'll need to do is refresh the battery pack and drive it for another 10 years without ever needing a drop of gas (at much less cost and hassle than replacing an engine in an ICE car)! As long as I can keep the road salt off it we should be fine --
On another subject...how is the LEAF in the winter with respect to heating the cabin? Does this suck up a lot of kwh? Also, are you a "hypermiler" or do you just drive pretty much like normal?
To me something like the LEAF would be good for the long term...
1 - Camera (19G490) $379.92
1 - Camera Mount Bracket (19H421) $ 31.80
1 - Camera Module (19H405) $257.58
1 - Nut (HN1) $ 4.00
1 - Screw (HS1) $ 8.00
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http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33010
The cargo area behind the upright rear seats seems about the same to me in the C-Max as in my 09 Fit but it may be a bit larger/wider. I'm waiting for the rear tray to come in to haul some things to the dump/recycling center. I'll have a better idea when I do that. Sorry but I haven't even sat in the rear seats yet but looking in at the rear bench seat it doesn't look bigger than the Fit but it must be because the Fit seats 4 and the C-Max seats 5. Sorry I wasn't able to help more. I'd say the ride is the biggest difference I've noticed. Low scores for the long braking distances and the turning radius is truly HUGE after the Fit. I owned a Honda Insight and I HATED it but I'm liking this C-Max a lot!
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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One post mentioned the sensitivity of the brakes, they are excellent in my opinion, good linear pedal travel and a nice firm pedal, easy and very smooth transition from regen to conventional. I got used to them in a few hours of city driving and this is the first EV I've ever owned or driven. Another was concerned about lost space due to the larger battery, it really doesn't amount to much unless you want to stuff it full from from floor to ceiling. I'll run it for a few months to give it a good breaking in and report back on mileage etc.
Regarding real world mileage I noticed that the Edmunds testers said their CMax Hybrid mileage was about 10 mpg less that that the EPA 44. I assume the car was not fully broken in so that may not be true real world mileage. (from my memory, not sure how accurate that is).
In my Fit I consistently get 36-38 mpg in mix driving.(driven conservatively but not a true hypermiler style). I will be closely following this forum to see how the CMax stacks up as owners get more miles & experience with their new CMaxes.
Thanks & please keep the information coming!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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The Good: C Max performs very well on dry roads. Out performs the Prius. More powerful than the Prius. Brakes OK, but Prius may have a slight edge. Road noise not an issue, but is a major problem in the Prius. C Max handles very well in high winds as does the Prius. A lot more extras as compared to Prius models. The C Max sound system is outstanding with the Equipment Group 202A (MyFord touch & Sirius package). Highly recommend this. In storage space the Prius has the edge. Settings easier to read than on the Prius. The out of date LCD format on Prius is a major problem, but the C Max has LED or other bright formats.
The bad: Some of the gauges and setups take some getting used to. Maybe not just as user friendly as the Prius, but not a deal breaker. No spare - I repeat no spare tire. Window tint essentially non-existent. You will have to spend $244-279 bucks to make it right.
The ugly: 23 mpg during hard city driving. 36 mpg on highway with conservative driving by a well experienced Prius driver. If you are truly interested in a green hybrid that gets 47 mpg (as advertised), then this is a deal breaker. This is a first use experience. Will give interval update.
I have a C-Max hybrid as my personal car and a Prius as a company car.
A C-Max is heavier, taller, wider, and considerably more powerful than a Prius V, so physics dictates that it won't get better mileage--but surprisingly it doesn't do much worse either, with owners of both reporting numbers in the high-30s to low-40s range on Fuelly.com and fueleconomy.gov. The Prius Liftback will out-MPG either one all day long, of course.
I find the Prius dashboard computer estimated MPG about as realistic and accurate as the C-Max's EPA estimated MPG--that is, absurdly optimistic vs actual calculated MPG. (The C-Max's computer is pretty accurate.)
Personally I wonder if Ford erred in positioning this car against any Prius, because to some degree the cars appeal to different people. I respect the Prius for its mileage supremacy, but don't like the compromises it makes to eke out those last few MPG (in acceleration, handling, road noise). In short, I like to drive, and the Prius doesn't. The C-Max drives like a German entry-luxury sedan, gets the MPG of a flyweight Honda Fit, and swallows cargo and dogs like a Mazda 5 minivan. For me, that's the sweet spot.
Ford dealer has no explanation and was of no help regarding the mileage.
At this 4 month interval my conclusion based on the experience of one C Max: If you are planning to purchase the C Max to get 47 MPG, you will most likely be disappointed. If you just want a good little hybrid that is fun to drive and gets fairly good mileage, then consider the C Max. The Prius is still the hybrid gold standard for MPG, but Ford is definitely in the ball game.
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We currently own a Nissan LEAF which is 100% electric so we received a $3,725 cash rebate (the rebate is 10% of MSRP up to $4K), no tax return is necessary to get it. Another agency in IL also offers a 50% rebate on the equip + install of an EVSE (the 240V connection for faster than 120V charging) as well. The C-Max Energi has a fairly small battery so many go without putting in a charger.
On last thing about the IL EPA rebates, they're for purchased not leased cars unlike the Fed Tax Credit which could be applied against the lease or taken as a tax credit after you file your tax return. Believe me, we checked out all the angles before hand --- IL also has special 'EL' plates for $18/yr but only for 100% electric cars.
The C-Max (either version) was a possibility for us but the battery version simply lost too much storage space versus the hybrid and we found those 2nd row seats too hard and uncomfortable. For a couple, who doesn't need extra space and carry many people its not a bad commuter ... if you drive very short distances the Energi model would do well on 100% electric but it's pricey for what you get IMO.
As we'll be in the market for another short trip (30 mile r/t) car that would replace a smart fortwo coupe we're hopeful the 100% electric version will be coming to IL soon as well as the Fiat 500e and BMW i3 but as always, electric cars have be slow to come to IL so we need to be patient.
The technology is outstanding. Take some time to understand how it works, and read the manual. We live up a mountain and this car has good power climbing the hills. The sitting room is outstanding. I am 6 feet six inches tall and my wife is 5 feet two. We both have no problem driving this car. As far as cargo space goes, the two of us and our Ausralian Shepherd have enjoyed our weekly trips into the Adirondack Mts.
There is a lot to love about this car, and fun learning all the technology. Ford gets an A.
I have laughed many times over some of the posts, on this and other sites, where people who voice complaints about mileage usually expose their faults elsewhere in their post ( i.e. they do not know how to or care to drive economically). Or they complain about things that are not faults but rather the way they would like the car to be.
About the only thing I could complain about would be the Michelin tires, I think they are noisy, when I replaced the Michelin Energy tires on my wife's Fusion w, General Altimax tires the reduction in noise was amazing, and they rode better. But hard and noisy tires are part of the price you pay for mileage.
Cargo space has not been an issue for us as w/ the rear sear folded we can carry all our coolers, bins and duffels for weekly trips.
What Ford could do to improve this car IMO is to offer 1.Tinted Glass, 2. Power Passenger Seat, 3. Memory Seats. I do not feel that the lack of these items is a fault, it simply would be nice if they were available.
In my original post I said that Ford might have a winner here, after 10 months and 12,000 miles my wife and myself are convinced that they indeed do have a winner plus.