F-150 or Toyota?

prothero

Hi, I'm trying to decide between a Ford F-150 and
Toyota pickup. I hear Toyota is coming out with a
replacement for the T-100 this spring. Normally,
Toyota would be it, because I want to drive it well
over 100K miles, and CU reliability on all
American medium size trucks looks grim. Ford
redesigned the F-150 last year. Does anybody have
any opinions about the reliability of the Ford F150
pickup. It looks like a great design, but when I
spend that much money, I want it to LAST.

Tnx,
Bill

rite3

Bill, MOTORTREND just wrapped up their years worth of long term testing on the 1997 F150 they voted truck of the year. The review I read was glowing in most areas. The only thing that stuck out was the MPG avereaged over the years use which was 15.2 or .3. I cant say as I remember for sure. The 1998 models have been retuned a little and the MPG I saw last for the 5.4 was 12 city and 15 hwy down from 13- 16 last year. If you get a chance to pick up a copy, I would, it had alot of info in it and they sure said they liked the truck. They must have, they bought it and added it to the permanent fleet at motor trend. The new half ton TOYOTA you speak of has really thrown a monkey wrench in my truck buying plans as well. I saw the article on the T150 and I am sure once it comes out it will be impressive. The concept dousnt look bad either. I dont know if youve seen the story on the T150 yet, If you havent there is a link in the "where are all the T100's?" topic area . Check it out, and good luck.

heron

Hey, I just bought a 1998 T100 SR5 Ext. Cab. I love the way it drives. I liked the F-150 but didn't want to sacrifice the mileage and the general driveability. The F-150 was just too big for my needs. The new T150's ought to be nice but your going to lose the mileage with the 8 and personally I would give it a couple of years to work out the bugs. My T100 is going in to get a new rearend. Apparently defective after 200miles.

ekimnuarb

Take my advice and go with the T-100...you'll never regret it and, probably never go back!! If you don't trust me, try checking the reliability statistics (they don't lie!)

Mike

richflynn

I just checked out the Detroit News article that lwf suggested. The most interesting thing I noted was a US plant with an annual capacity of 100,000 vehicles.

If it were me going to get the Toyota, I would wait. First, most of the buyers are probably going to come from the smaller truck (Tacoma?) sales. Thus a glut of small trucks. The smaller trucks will get rebates tacked onto them. Then the dealers stop dealing on the T-150s to steer more people into the glut of smaller trucks. (If Toyota is doing rebates, then the dealers are being pushed to sell more small trucks.) Remember the 100,000 annual vehicle capacity? Well that is going to come into play also. Soon, a glut of big T-150s. (You can't change a production line over to a new vehicle over a weekend. It takes months of planning, etc.) Now it becomes deal and rebate time. The final point is that NOBODY can go from sales of 28,700 units in 1997 to 100,000 units in 1998 or 1999 without pain, luck and a simultaneous strike at the big three that lasts 9 months.
Rich

bobaquino

Just cause Toyota doesn't sell lots of t-100's, doesn't mean its a bad truck. Toyota misssed the mark with marketing and optioning the truck for the american market (only market since they don't really sell pickups in Japan). Reliablility ratings don't lie, the t-100 will most likey give better service over the life of the vehicle than the f 150 will. Remember all the paint jobs on f150's and Rangers back in the eighties??? I owned a 85 ranger and while the vehicle rolled down the road (paint flaking off, rust building up), it did have more than its share of niggly pain in the [non-permissible content removed] problems. The people with old toyota pickups will have to come in on this one, but I haven't met one that complained about the trucks like the folks I met that owned rangers and the like.

Bottom line: if you don't mind the V6 (has plenty of power in the 2x4 version) and the size is right, its a good truck. Hope the guy with the bad rear end is taken care of by the dealer.

danz28

I have no doubt that the T100 is a capable truck and is very reliable. However in comparison to Ford, or even Chevy and Dodge for that matter, it is way too expensive. This is the number one concern when anyone buys a new vehicle. Here in Texas where every other vehicle is a truck, I could count on one hand the number of Toyotas I have seen. Even when I worked in the truck conversion business I dont recall ever working on a T100. This in no way means that the T100 is bad just that it is way too much money. I hate to see the price of them when that finally slap a V8 in them.

richflynn

Please! I didn't say the Toyota anything was a bad truck. I just said that if it were me buying a T-whatever I would wait because I think that there's going to be BIG rebates on the new T-whatver. A new factory to produce 100,000 units a year and last years sales less than 28,000. That leaves 72,000 new customers to satisfy capacity. I don't see where those customers are going to come from, even with rebates!

reset9

The T100 is made in Japan and because of that it is subject to an import duty-tax (25%); which made it pricey - plus these trucks were not build for US customers in mind to begin with, but for Japan - and therefore did not sell well!
Now that Toyota learned its lesson, it is capable of building a very reliable, functional and competitive T150 which can sell 100,000 and a lot more a year. They proved it before with the Camry and they can do it again with the T150.
Where will they get their customers from?
Well, from GM, Ford and Chrysler who keep taking their customers for granted and keep dishing out unreliable products and don't pay too much attention to details like Japanese do!

Lariat

Since the '97 F150 is a new redesign can much
really be said about it's long term reliabilty?
I sure hope lasts a long time, since I bought
one, but you really can't say either way for a
a couple more years on the new design. I took a chance because I liked what the reviews were saying about the new ford and it's styling looks good to me. It's a very smooth truck but it also kicks butt off-road. I'll have to keep my fingers crossed for long term reliablity. I've got 12,000 miles so far and not the slightest glitch yet.

rickrover

I have a 96 Tacoma 4X4 I leased on a special deal for only $200 a month for 36 months, so Toyota lease incentives do work. I leased it for my business and it goes back this December. It hasn't had any major problems but some odd ones like replacing suspension bushings at 14K miles, the horn stops working now and then (fixed twice) and the 5 speed transmission is making noise at 21K. My main problem with it is it's just a little too small. I investigated trading it on a T100 or F150 before the lease is up, the payoff on the lease is only $13,500 and it retail books for $14,500+ but the most I have been able to get for trade in is $11,500!! with only 21K miles on it. T100's are even softer here. I'm going to try to sell the Tacoma myself and buy a low mileage 96 or 97 T100 4X4, they are a screaming deal used. Whats up with Toyota's supposed high resale value??? It will be interesting to see if I CAN sell it for $13,500, I'm glad I leased it and didn't buy it. I may have to keep it a few more months until the lease runs out, no big deal, it's been a cheap, fun little truck. I would much rather have an F150, they are just too big for what I need. The T100 is the perfect size truck for me.

Benchmark

I am 6'4", and 245 lbs. I sat confortably in the Ford 150 XLT extended cab and "pretty well" in the T-100. Trouble is I have kids and the Toyota Sales Rep stated I should wait for the T-150 that will have a door like the Ford. I am probably going to lease my next vehicle and I believe that a Toyota would last longer (based on precious experiences with their Camrys and Corollas) but I really like the size of the small V-8 150 extended cab interior. Question...if you were to lease either a T-100 or 150 versus 150 extended cab...which would you choose? Reliabilty is important since I can't afford down time in the shop whereby value and return for my money is second...

Brutus

I think this topic is comparing apples to oranges. I am having a hard time believing that the new F-150 is less reliable than the Toyota. Toyota quality may apply to cars and they have been making the minitrucks for awhile, but they haven't even got their feet wet in the full size truck market. Ford has been making the F-Series for 50 years. I doubt it would be the best selling vehicle each year for as long as it has if it had reliability problems. I have a 92 F-250 with 82,000 miles. The mandatory maintenance required has been the clutch, battery and starter. Clutch replacement is more the result of the operators driving habits, so basically a few hundred bucks for the battery and starter have been it.

I suspect the Toyota will continue to have growing pains as the engineers figure out what works and doesn't work on a full size truck. Toyota is starting from scratch. The redesigned F-150 may be new, but the truck is built based on 50 years of experience. If you plan to haul heavy loads, or tow, or go off road on a regular basis, I'd be really careful about buying something other than the Big Three. If you're basically running empty, just cruising around town or highway trips, I'm sure the Toyota will do fine. At that point, it comes down to cost and preference.

I don't see the Toyota and F-150 being a good comparison. I think a better comparison would be to the lighter duty Dakota, the Ranger or the S-10. Toyota might compete favorably performance-wise, but the Toyota is far more expensive. Blame it on the lack of free trade, but I don't expect the tarriffs to come down anytime soon. The Toyota trucks are, kind of, in a class by themselves when you look at what you pay for what you get: a midsize truck for a full size price.

wesl

What kind of engine is Toyota going to put in its T-150? And also, can they get away with naming it the T-150. Its awful close to the F-150. The Toyota makes a fine light duty truck, and I'm sure their full size will make a fine light duty truck. Toyota is kidding themselves if they think they can compete with the medium and heavy duty F series trucks. By the way, for 1997, the F-150 was the highest rated full size truck in initial quality. Something like .64 problems per truck, besting Toyota. I dont think Ford has much to worry about. I would be more concerned over the new Chevrolet C/K series.

Brutus

All I know about the new T-150 is that it is suppose to have a V-8. To clarify my previous post, Toyota does make a very good truck. If you check out www.fourwheeler.com, you can read an article about the Tacoma being the "Pickup of the Year" and the "Fourwheeler of the Year". To qualify for the competition, the vehicle has to be new or mostly new for the model year. The entrants this year were the Ranger, the Mazda B3000, and the Toyota. The Toyota outperformed the other two in most categories. There are a lot of skeptics that question if they can duplicate that effort in the light duty half ton market, but they have a good track record. I haven't heard anything about them attempting to enter the heavy duty market. They may be waiting to see how they do with the 1/2 ton. Like I mentioned previously, even if they do make a solid truck, they are still going to have a problem selling it. The price of the Ranger that was tested was $21,475. The price of the Mazda was $19,475 and the price of the Toyota was $26,206. Like I said, you're basically getting a midsize truck for a full size price.

Rocles

I am currently looking for a full size replacement for my S-10 and the choices are few.Only Ford seems to have a serious truck when the criteria goes beyond looks. I compare Toyota to the Honda motorcycles of the past. Everyone laughed at the notion of any company challenging Harley for cruisers or bikers. Guess what! I was one and I love my bikes from Honda so don't get too comfortable about Toyota's future in big trucks. I agree that Ford is the best;but no company should rest on it's laurels.

Brutus

Rocles,

I agree 100%. The more competition, the better the product from all of the competitors. I think the new Dodge Ram woke up Chevy and Ford. It seems like Ford and Chevy had waited quite a long time before coming out with fully redesigned models. What was it for Ford? Maybe 15 years on their heavy duty models? If Toyota can get serious about the truck market, all of the trucks will get better, sooner. I just don't see how they can compete with the tarriffs. Their vehicles will be $5,000+ more expensive.

lwf

"I just don't see how they can compete with the tarriffs."

The answer to that is they're going to build them in Princeton, Indiana.

But you're probably right anyway. Toyota, being Toyota, will more than likely have an MSRP that'll be about 10-to-15% more than a comparable Chevy, Dodge or Ford, and since Toyota seems to think that $2,500 over invoice is appropriate for their vehicles (as opposed to $200 to $400 over invoice for the big-3 pick-ups), we might very well see the T150 costing $5,000+ more than the American full-sized trucks. My guess is that it'll be $8,000. Maybe we should start a pool! Only kidding.

dkt99

Someone said that the T-150's wont sell. I disagree! The reason the T-100's are so expensive is that they are made in Japan and theres a 25% tariff placed on them when they come into the country. Toyota has plans to make the T-150 in the United states. Say goodbye to the tariff. That means Toyota quality at a reasonable price.

richflynn

Maybe there won't be a tariff on the assembled Toyota T-150; but isn't there some sort of tariff on the components imported for assembly here?

I think that the T-150 (even the T-100) will do very well as a daily driver and light weekend chores. The real test will be when someone drops a 5th wheel with 10,000 gross weight and 1,000 hitch weight into the T-150. When a rig like that makes it from L.A. to either Vegas or Phoenix without problems I think that Toyota may then have entered the American truck market.

Rich

Rocles

I agree with all of your responses. Toyota will have to prove itself and I would wait until I see the results before buying. Personally, I hope it is soon that the T-150 arrives for Brutus was correct on how it will affect the big 3. Even if one never buys one, we will all benefit.

edr3

Gentlemen,

It's fun reading the bantering back and forth! Brand loyalty rears it's head as usual, so I guess I'll jump in with my two cents worth.

The Toyota will be built in the US and I don't remember ever reading about a tariff being imposed on the parts coming in from Japan (that's why they're building them here), so price should go down or at least stay close to that of the T100 Toyota's sells today. On the other hand Toyota parts are expensive - I'll be curious to see if that changes or stays the same.

I'll admit, Toyota has slacked off in quality a bit and the US brands are catching up - finally! Yet I continue to read too much about the American brand problems (see as an example the comment from a QA consultant to industry, in the SUV section under Ford-vs-Chevy-vs-Dodge. He talks about buying a Tahoe/Yukon from the Northern GM assembly plant versus the Southern GM plant - I can't remember the exact details, but his comment was to ask where it was built and avoid buying from the plant building them in the north - major quality problems). While new car quality may be great for Ford, let's check back on that same set of vehicles in a few years. I still buy a car with the long term quality being one of my primary decision factors.

Toyota is no dummy, they didn't get to be one of the best by making basic mistakes. I bought an '88 Toyota with the (at the time) new 3.0L V6 and after 6 years and 135K miles I sold it - never having experienced a problem.
I believe the engine going into the T150 will be the same or a derivation of the engine in the Lexus LS400. As a side note - Ivan "the Iron Man" Stewart has been using a race version of the T150's engine in his desert race truck, with great success.

While I like most trucks, I need a reliable one to get me to work as well as get me, my gear and camping trailer into the hills for weekend hunting and fishing trips! I liked my Jeep, but after monthly trips to the dealer for minor problems, a factory engine replacement and 2 tow jobs due to blown seals, I finally said it's been fun, but I'm headin' back to Toyota!

At that time I looked at most American brands, but the American brands were either underpowered or they didn't sell the big 6 cylinders with a five speed, or the combination I wanted, a good 6 cyl. or V8 power and a manual, sucked down the gas. So I bought another Toyota and I'm anxiously awaiting the T150's arrival and more details so that I can plan my next purchase.

While I agree that the Toyota T150 probably won't haul a huge fifth wheel or horse trailer, most of us don't really need it for that - and most of the truck owners I know don't use their trucks that way either. I want the reliability the Toyota offers, and while the Toyota's initial price is high, it operating cost is realtively low over it's life time. When you factor in gas mileage estimates - I figure it will be about 25% better than the other similar (gas) trucks from Ford, Chevy & Dodge. Based on these thoughts I just can't see the other brands beating out Toyota for my "average joe" needs anyway.

I do like the advantages offered by the diesels (my dad drives a newer Dodge Cummins 2500 extended cab) but I can't see them fitting into my life. The wife and kids would probably kill me starting one up in the garage early each morning before heading off to work - that is it I could even get a full size extended cab to fit in the garage!

I have and will continue to read and research this topic and hope to someday find that the American brands are back in front - and for the long haul. Until then, I'll keep driving my Toyota and smile when my old (and young) American-brand-loyal friends make fun of my "rice burner."

'til we banter again, drive safely.

wesl

edr3:
lets banter, shall we? I agree the t-150 will be a decent truck, but it will only compete with the F-150. Even then, Toyota can only produce 100,000 trucks. They only sold 27,000 the first year on the market, making the truck a non-issue for Ford. In 1997, they peddled 700,000+ F-series trucks, making it the best selling vehicle in the World. When Ford starting taking orders for the heavy duty models, they had 50,000 orders in the first week. I know you like Toyota, but the F-150 is a great truck. Even Consumer Reports likes it. Toyota has their work cut out for them. One thing Toyota need to do is work on a decent range. I find their trucks to be one flavor only. Can't wait to see how the market shapes up. BTW, I'm a Ford fan thats waiting eagerly for the first T-150's to show up. Until then, I dream about a F-350 Supercab Diesel 4x4.

edr3

wesl,

Sorry it's been awhile, but I'm ready to banter away!

I'll have to agree with your thoughts on Ford, I do like the Ford F150 and did seriously consider buying one.
While the numbers for Ford are impressive, I think it's a bit difficult to compare an F150 line to the Toyota trucks, Ford does offer an incredible range of options and packages, with GMC and Dodge being the only ones even having a chance of coming close to those kinds of numbers. Also, it's hard not to sell that many trucks at the price they're selling them at. They've been selling the old style F250 4x4 around here for under $20K!!

On the other hand, I think it would be a great comparison to run the Ford F150 extended cab 3-door 5.2L V8 5 speed side by side with the T150 4-door 4.7L V8 5 speed. Thinking about it has me drooling!

I'm not too interested in how big or heavy a horse trailer either can tow, leave that to the new American V10s and diesels! I did look at the Ford Super Duty at the Denver auto show and was impressed, those thing are HUGE!!

But looking at this realistically, I personally use my truck 90% of the time for commuting and 10% for recreation (which are numbers I would love to reverse - but I gotta pay those bills); therefore, I'm more interested in a comparison of the typical performance numbers, on and off road comfort and performance, mpg, pricing, etc. If only Ford could find a way to get an average of 20 mpg out of the 5.2 triton, I'd love to buy it. I'm pretty sure Ford and Toyota probably don't add up to those kinds of numbers on paper, but I do know first hand that the Toyota does great in gas mileage in real life driving, at least it has when I driven them. I'm not as sure about the Fords, they've always seemed to have had slightly lower mpg numbers than comparible trucks. I do know my old 3.0L Toyota truck, and a friends Chevy Blazer 4.3L with V6s got better gas mileage than the 2.8L and 4.0L Ford V6s a few years ago.

Finally, I'll agree that Toyota has been pretty lame with their product range - the truck's style is okay, while the new Camry looks like a modern version of a 70's Chevy Nova - BORING!!! They seem to lack style. On the other hand, Toyota seems to be working with their California design studio these days and their TRD group is starting to put out some great product - maybe they're finally getting the message that American's like to be individualists. No wonder the aftermarket parts industry is going nuts.
I hope you get your F350 Diesel and enjoy it. I'll just drive my little T150 or the F150 (depending on how the show down goes) and sleep happily at night with it tucked away in my garage, where I know it will fit.

Take care guys!

jpkindred

edr3,

Just a quick not on the F150: I drive my 97 F150 Lariat Supercab on the highway and get an honest 18 mpg. It drives great and I feel like I am in a luxury car it is so well made and so well integrated

I bought one of the less than full size trucks with a back seat and we couldn't get the kids in it for more than a half hour without getting uncomfortable. That is why I went for the full size truck.