MINI Cooper

alf3

I just came back from Borders, and picked up a couple British car magazines with articles on the new MINI: Autocar (I think it's the May 23 (?) issue - just hit the US newstands) and CAR magazine. I also read today that Topgear also has an article coming out (probably already out in the UK). Great pictures, and from the little bit I've read, great reviews.

silver_bullet

Are you going to keep your ZX3, or sell it when your Mini arrives? I'm still holding out for a well-made, fun to drive hatchback that's AFFORDABLE. After my mixed experiences with the ZX3, I decided to pass on the upcoming SVT Focus - too bad the Focus is built, sold and serviced by Ford

rickrover

I've been on the Mini waiting list at my local BMW dealer since January - I'd been bugging my BMW sales person about getting on the Mini waiting list for months before that. He was off the day they started the list and called me as soon as he found out about it the next day - I was 17 on the list on the second day of the lists existance. They stopped the list at 20 on the second day - don't know why.

I had to put down a $1,000 fully refundable deposit, they will not let me sell my place in line (not that I'd want to). When my name comes up on the list I order my car - anyway I want it - regular or S with whatever options I choose, whatever color and they will charge me straight MSRP - no add ons no matter how hot the car is at the time. If they happen to have a car in stock that I want then I can buy that and not have to order one - the choice is up to me. This is how my dealer (Fields BMW, Orlando) operates - whether I'm ordering a Z8, M3, M5 - it doesn't matter, they are a great dealer. They have a two year waiting list for the new M3 and M5 - they order your car when your name comes up on the waiting list and their allocation allows them to order the car, you come in and order it and wait 6 to 8 weeks for it to arrive - simple.

It's nice to see this Mini forum getting more active....

silver_bullet

So, the dealer gets to earn interest on your $1K for 9 months, and all you get in return is a chance to buy a car at full pop? Sure glad you're happy with that "deal". Personally, I'm getting pretty tired of the hype and feeding frenzy that seems to accompany almost every new model introduction. I went through this recently on a WRX, then passed on the car when it finally arrived because it didn't impress me all that much - and the treatment I got from the dealer impressed me even less. Looking at the Mini for a minute, I'm more than a little concerned that the hype is going to be greater than the product... "all hat, and no cattle" as we say here in Texas. Yes, I've read all the press, and I'm less than thrilled to read about the Pentastar engine and all the electronic doodads. Excuse me, but the original Mini was a simple car that offered lots of space and performance in a very tidy and space efficient package - the new car is starting to look like a four-wheeled fashion accessory and/or "lifestyle" statement. Guess I'll keep my hands in my pockets until the initial feeding frenzy subsides, and reality sets in.

rickrover

You have a point - Hey I might not like it and just ask for my money back - who knows? If I like it I'll be the first on my block to own one, we'll see.

Cooper

I sat in one, too, a couple of weeks ago. I'm the same size as alf3, (6', 185 lbs.), and I fit fine.

Interesting, the rep I spoke with stated that they're not supposed to take any money at this point.

They may have one for a week or so in a couple of months, as the cars will start to make the rounds at the selected dealers.

qbrozen

anybody at 6'5" get in one yet??

the cars are making the rounds, huh? Are they going to call you when that happens or is this just for the dealers and salespeople to see?

tommyp13

I did a long writeup at mini2.com, so I won't bore you with that here.

I still don't understand all of the comparisons between the old & new Minis. Do you honestly think that Americans would buy the original now? This is an entirely different car, and should be treated as such. The only real similiarities are basic shape, name, and some marketing gimmicks.

Many dealers have been taking $$ for months now; at least my dealer waited until it was official. And, yes, my dealer said that they will not be charging over msrp. All brand-new models seem to be selling at msrp - guess it's the price of owning something new and different. I'd really like to see someone try to negotiate on Minis in the first year - that would be a funny sight (not that I'm thrilled with paying msrp, but I'll accept it, as the Mini has everything that I want).

qbrozen

Tommy, went over there and read it. Well, good for you. That's the dealer I would be going through (I think - is prestige the one in Princeton? I would check the dealer locator, but for some reason, its like I'm running into the old one here at work and its telling me the dealers haven't been selected yet! What is the deal with that??!). Still, though, as tempted as I am, I'm not giving up $1000 for the next 9 or 10 months - especially if I don't even know if I FIT (it keeps coming back to this - but that is a problem I run into on ALOT of cars). Besides, there are too many interesting cars coming out in the near future and I haven't even completely decided on one over the other (I definitely think the mini is the best looking, though).

rickrover

I didn't know Mini's would be making the rounds of the selected dealers in a couple of months - knowing my dealer they'll throw a big viewing party for everyone on the waiting list. Hopefully they'll have an S as one of the cars - getting excited -

Has anyone thought about what color they're going to get - white roof or no? I'm kind of leaning toward the blue with a white roof, or maybe silver without a white roof - will probably get a black interior - don't think I want a sunroof.

I'm planning on an S with minimal options and plan to upgrade the heck out of it in the aftermarket. I'm sure the usual BMW tuning companies - Dinan, Hamman, Schnitzer will have all sorts of go-fast stuff for this car. I'll bet it will be easy and relatively cheap to get over 200 HP out of the S motor in the aftermarket - not unlike the VW 1.8t engine. I think this Mini will be my weekend track car, can't wait to see how well it handles out of the box, then make it even better.

tommyp13

I have heard of others having the same problem with the dealer locator. No idea why it doesn't work. Though, I think that Princeton BMW was given one of the dealerships.
I'm not all that wild about being out $1k, especially since I'm going to be looking into moving to Hoboken in a couple of months (will have to pay broker fee when I do move - that's worse than paying the $1k Mini deposit), but what's done is done.

I'll still be looking, but I really doubt that I'll find anything better.

Rickrover, I think that Mini has said that the S will debut at the Tokyo Auto Show, and I think that's in October. Before then, I hope that they tone down the mouth on the hood - looks almost as silly as the one on the older Imprezas.

I'm also not too sure that the usual suspects will cozy up to the Mini. Cooper Garages has been working on stuff from the beginning to get it closer to 200hp. I think that traditional BMW aftermarket companies may pass up the Mini for the new 1 series and ti's that are going to be coming out instead (total guess there).

alf3

The rep I spoke with in Clemmons NC a few weeks back when the new MINI was on display indicated that AC Schnitzer and Alpina are already at work on the new MINI upgrades, and as noted above, John Cooper Garages is also at work on higher-performance versions. Check out the Cooper Garages website for (IMHO) a really cool two-tone beige/blue leather interior in a new MINI, as well as some pictures of the new MINI assembly line.

Silver Bullet - yup - my ZX3 will leave once the Cooper arrives - I love my ZX3 though - do you still have yours and your fiance's ??????

qbrozen

You guys are killing me. I'm so tempted to reserve one (if i could do it for a couple hundred bucks). Performance upgrades already? That would certainly take care of any doubts I have about performance. So, that brings me down to only one question - the "do-I-fit" one. Any auto shows coming in the next 5 or 6 months where the mini will be present (in the Northeast U.S.)? All I need to do is sit in one to make a purchasing decision. My Mazda lease is up next summer, so the Mini would work out great for me (not to mention several other cars on the way).

Tone down the mouth?? I wouldn't want to see them change a SINGLE THING from the current showcar. I love it. I think it is the most beautiful car I've seen in a LONG time. This is the biggest reason why I am so taken with this car!! (with the prospect of insane handling being a close second.)

Color? Hmmm... well, if they are available on the S, I'm going to have a tough time choosing between B.R.G., Nacho, and Cloud 9. I think I'd want the white roof on it in any color (just to help keep the summer heat out).

silver_bullet

I don't blame you for ditching your ZX3. "My" ZX3 is now my fiancee's - we sold hers after it developed one more problem than I was willing to deal with in a new car. So far, the remaining car has been okay. Heaven help her if she decides to sell or trade it - the resale value must be about zero

I won't try to talk anyone into or out of buying a new Mini - it will be a fun car to see out on the road, and I'm sure most buyers will be happy with their purchase (cross your fingers to ward off the British Car Demon... surely there are no Lucas parts in there!). Enjoy!

alf3

GBrozen - I read this morning on mini2.com that the annual British car show in Bogie MD is this weekend - I have never attended, but have heard it is huge. I would bet that if BOW knows about the show, MINI will be there.

Silver Bullet - what are you driving now ?? My ZX3 has been great overall - just at 55k miles. Resale ?? Abysmal - Carmax offered $6k...

silver_bullet

alf3, I'm getting around in my old Nissan pickup - sometimes I think I should just drive the old beast and keep my money in the bank. This truck has been reliable as an anvil, and gets about the same gas mileage as the Focus - go figure. 55K on your ZX3? Good for you! I hope my fiancee's lasts that long :-0

rickrover

You have a point about the white roof with any color - I live in Florida so a white roof is something I'll definately consider, plus it's so Mini - what the heck - a white roof it is - making decisions all ready! I'm looking forward to seeing what the colors actually look like in person - Nacho may be a possibility for me as well. Is anyone going to have a British flag painted on the roof?

silver_bullet

... would be the way to go! I'm not impressed with the wheel designs I've seen so far, and it sure would be cool if silver Minilite or Panasport wheels become available - now that would be the total nostalgia package

Cooper

Yes, Princeton VW is one of the dealers. They think that they'll have a car for a little bit in August, while it's "making the rounds."

At the car show, the Mini USA Rep stated that the colors on the web site aren't very good, and they are working on upgrading that feature. They were taken with what they had at the time and they used pictures to try to match the colors, rather than actual color samples.

He said that orange (what my wife wanted) didn't make the cut to be one of the final colors, as too few people (~2%) selected it as a potential for purchase intent in consumer testing.

qbrozen

yeah, I emailed them to ask what their policy is. He told me that, right now, they are just taking names. After the final pricing and options are announced, then they will take orders along with a NON-refundable deposit. So, I guess i won't be putting my name on any list (unless I can actually SIT IN ONE!!!).

tommyp13

I don't know what your time frame is, but if you don't get your name down on something, it would be around fall of '02 before you see anything.

People have already been able to sit in one. Pricing probably won't be finalized until October or November, so you would be able to sit in one by then, and would be able to decide on it before you would have to put down the nonrefundable deposit. What's the harm in leaving your name at Prince ton anyway?

Of course, the other option would be to put down a refundable deposit somewhere else.

Cooper- sucks about the orange, doesn't it? That was one of my options as well. Maybe they'll reconsider. And, if you go to the web sites for other countries, they have different colors as well. The UK gets some pretty nice colors that we don't, for example.

rickrover

BMW dealers deposit rules get really annoying. The BMW dealers I've dealt with usually have fully refundable deposits unless you are special ordering something weird that would be hard for them to sell if you backed out. I was thinking of ordering a stripped 6 cyl. manual transmission 3.0 X5 with a sport package earlier this year - the same dealer that has the fully refundable deposit on the MINI wanted a $3k deposit on the X5 that would have been non-refundable. We're leaning toward a 2002 Audi A4 wagon instead of the X5 now.

I thought a $500 refundable deposit would have been more appropriate for the MINI. It's not like they won't be able to sell it to someone else if you back out.

s852

Is it true that a simple folding center armrest is not going to be available on any 2002 Minis?

s852

Does anyone have any specs on this system? Does it include some sort of sub woofer?

mcostello

From the website, they claim that the mini will accomodate drivers up to the 95th percentile male, which is 1.9 meters, or just short of 6'3".

tommyp13

I'm 5' 10 1/2" and the front seats were very comfy and had alot of room. I'd imagine that you could be a couple of inches over 6 feet and still be comfortable enough for a long drive. The most surprising thing was that there was headroom in the backseat as well. Legroom is at a premium, but that could be dealt with. I was totally impressed with the amount of room in the car (let's just not talk about luggage capacity when the back seat is up), and made me much happier about the wait until April.

rickrover

Tommy - Where were you able to sit in one? I can't wait to actually see a Mini in person. I haven't checked in with my dealer in a few months - I think I may head over today for an update on what's happening with them.

rickrover

The August issue of Automobile magazine has an excellent first drive article on the Mini.

tommyp13

that culminated at BMW's N America HQ in Woodcliff Lake, which is 30 minutes from where I live (one of the few pluses about living in NNJ). They had two Coopers there.

Loved the car. I'm doing a M-B Powertrip on Sunday to look at the new c230; if that's a bust, then I'm definitely waiting for the Mini. If I like the MB, then I guess that I have some decisions to make.

I'll have to check out the mag. C&D just did a little drive on it, as did Grassroots Motorsports. C&D really liked it, except for the lack of power (0-60 for Cooper of 9 secs). Hopefully, that will be resolved with the S.

gottabee

.... how did the mb c230 coupe compare to the mini?

tommyp13

Gottabee, I was going to respond to your post on the c230 forum; glad to see that I can do it here. OK: here are my caveats: I haven't driven or even heard the Mini running, and I drove the c230s today in the rain, and they were automatics.
I was pleasantly surprised by the c230. The cloth was much better than I thought it would be. Which is good for me, because I'd much rather buy a cloth version and do aftermarket leather down the road, which is available in better shades than M-B will have when they sort their supply problem.

The car handled pretty well, though I couldn't push it. I tried the slk, which has the same 6-speed tranny, and that felt pretty smooth, though not Honda smooth.

Backseat: there is more headroom in the Mini, with its "block of velveeta" styling, but the MB has much more legroom, especially with the well sculpted front seatbacks. Back luggage area is better in the Benz, though the seats didn't fold flat like in the Mini. I didn't check to see if the Benz's seat bottom folded forward or anything to allow for a flat floor. With the rear seat folded, you could fit a bike in the Benz; doubt same in Mini.
Both had some really nice interior touches. The Benz had terrible power window switch placement, but a really nice armrest (none in Mini) and a James Bondy pop-out cupholder.
Fit and finish was hard to compare, because the Mini was a hand produced sample, but they both felt substantial.
Same warranty and scheduled maintenance plans. No Euro delivery on the Mini, but Benz will have at some point in the near future.
It's going to be a really tough decision for me.

If you have any specific questions, let 'em fly.

qbrozen

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we looking at a significant price difference with these 2 cars? From what I've heard and read up to this point, a fully loaded cooper S is going to come in around $21K. The MB is going to START at around $25K, correct? I mean, that's a lot of scratch and that's comparing one model's top-of-the-line vs. the other model's base.

tommyp13

The BASE price on the S is $21k, not the loaded price.

That will probably include partial leather seats, 16" wheels, a/c (not automatic), no sunroof, and tape player.

The c230 has dual-zone automatic climate control and some electronics standard that the Mini doesn't, as well as 29 extra ponies and a larger package.

Is it worth $4k more, base to base? Not sure, but you are definitely paying for the MB name. Of course, if your decision is totally based on economics, then the WRX is the best deal out there, easily.

So, if you give each car all of the bells and whistles, the Mini should reach 28-30, and the c230, 32.

qbrozen

Now that's a whole different animal. Why is it the best deal? Just because its the fastest? I don't know if I buy into the philosophy that the fastest is the best. Don't get me wrong, I would love to agree with you here because I love the WRX and wish I could afford one right at this moment. However, comparing the WRX with the Mini (or the MB) just isn't practical. My impression is that both the MB and the Mini are geared more towards luxury (albeit on a small platform) with a hint of performance mixed in. The WRX is all performance with a 6-disc in-dash changer thrown in. Then, of course, there is the whole drivetrain issue. I know this seems to be a popular theme here on the Edmund's boards, but we just can't compare the WRX to EVERYTHING on wheels.

I'll have to check what I read about the Cooper S. More than likely, you're right about the sunroof. But, i know that I saw the S comes standard with a slew of electronic features (more function and safety than convenience, though). I'd be surprised if there were still $7K in options left to put on there - but I could certainly be wrong.

I'm betting that those 29 more horses in the MB is still not going to help the heavier car perform better than the Cooper S. But, only time will tell.

tommyp13

I based the little statement on the WRX based on the fact that it has a great engine and 4wd for $24. I don't think that you can get a car that quick with that much grip without getting into the late $30k range. You're right about the luxury part of the equation, not to mention the front end of that car.
Now, on to the Mini. If you go to www.mini2.com, that's got the best info on what's going on. Not to sound like an [non-permissible content removed], but I've been watching the Mini for a long time, and my $ figures are as accurate as can be.
So far, the possible options list is pretty long (July BMW Car has full UK listing): panorama sunroof, full leather, auto, leather steering wheel, navigation system, dsc system, auto climate control, head airbag curtain system, several stereo upgrades, wheel options (including 17"), body kits, and other misc. appearance/storage stuff. That's the stuff that I know about, and could easily get you past the $28 range.
As far as performance, M-B is conservatively saying 7.5 sec. times for the c230. The current guess on the Cooper is 9 secs, and about 7 for the S. Handling is going to be much better on the Mini, of course.
One thing that the c230 has going for it is that all of the components have been proven already, while the Mini is not, especially the engine.

rickrover

I've noticed quite a few car magazines have articles on the Mini this month. Automobile, Car and Driver and Road and Track. Automobile said head air bags are standard and a fully loaded Mini adds only $2,500 to the base price, seems too low considering all the options available. A single disc CD will be standard as well as power windows, door locks etc. Road and Track mentioned the S won't be out for 6-8 months after the U.S. launch, the others intimated the S would be available here from the start. They all liked the Mini a lot and said it is really solid and handles extremely well, 3 suspensions are available. CNN had a story on the launch of the Mini in the UK this past weekend, it filmed people buying the Mini at a BMW dealership in London. I noticed that the Mini has the BMW feature of the windows lowering a half inch when you open the door and going back up when the door is closed, they were interviewing a new Mini owner as he got in his car and drove off. Total production is supposed to be 120,000 with only 20,000 comming to the U.S. in the first year.

I don't think you can beat the value of a WRX, I just can't get past the looks. The Mitsubishi Lancer Evo may be out about the time the Mini launches, that looks interesting to say the least.

qbrozen

hmmm... well, after re-reading the AutoWeek article, I'm a little less sure on the pricing than I was when I first read it (call it selective reading ). They also used that "$2500" number, but their statement reads like this: "Prices are not firm, but a nicely equipped Mini Cooper with many popular options will ad less than $2,500 to the car's base price." So, obviously, that's not loaded and its not even the S model.

However, it also goes on to say "That means the full Monty will come in under $21,000. Base price for the Cooper S will be $3,000 more than the Mini Cooper's." So, you could take that to mean that a fully loaded S will come in at around $24K.

Of course, who really knows. I wouldn't exactly trust any single source. They also say that there are about 50 options available for U.S.-spec Mini Coopers, but, again, that's not the S. The S is going to incorporate many of those options, I'm sure.

Oh, I mentioned electronic doodads before. According to this same article, the side airbags will be standard, along with ABS, Electronic Brake Distribution and Cornering Brake Control. Oh, and don't forget the tire pressure monitoring system.

The wait is the tough part. With all of the great cars just on the horizon, my money certainly may find another home. The STi, Evo, RX-8, and even some of the cheaper pocket rockets will all warrant a looksee.

alf3

First off - I LOVE the new MINI. However - there is no way that I could consider spending $28-$30K on a loaded Cooper S. No way. I read an article on www.minimania.com that talked about residual values on the MINI, which they thought would be quite good after three years - I thought the residuals were horrible !! Anyway - there are much better values out there for $28k. I am on my local dealer's waiting list for a MINI - but I'll choose my options wisely to minimise the MSRP.

kdiddy

Well... that just stinks!

mpgman

Anyone know the projected mpg on these and whether or not they require premium fuel? Thanks.

rickrover

47 MPG Highway is what I remember from an article I read. I don't know what grade of gas they'll require, I'd think the S will need premium. Even if the standard Mini requires premium it won't be a big deal, an extra buck or two a tank for premium won't break the budget.

denverboy

You want a *Mini* with an automatic? Why?

kdiddy

So I can buy one! They never make cool cars with automatics :-(

silver_bullet

... you'll never regret giving up the slushbox. One thing that makes "cool cars" so cool is the driver involvement factor - you miss a lot of that with an automatic. Plus, the engine in the MINI isn't exactly a powerhouse - coupling it to an autobox would make it a serious slug.

rickrover

I prefer a stick, I read somewhere that the Mini Cooper S will have a six speed standard - anyone else heard that?

The automatic in the Cooper is not a slushbox, it's a CVT ( Constantly Variable Transmission ) which is supposed to be faster than a stick since it keeps the engine at the perfect RPM's for economy or performance. I read that BMW is reprogramming it for the U.S. so it actually acts like it's shifting through six forward gears, they don't think americans would like the constant RPM characteristics of CVT. If I remember correctly the CVT keeps the engine at one RPM for normal economical driving and at the highest HP and torque RPM for maximum performance - no shifting through gears. I'll see if I can dig the article up on it for specifics, it's been a couple of months since I read it.

denverboy

Definitely learn to drive the manual. Today, my wife took my right-hand-drive manual Mini to work. If she can do it, you can too.

mpgman

Someone posted 36 mpgs the other day. Just read a review that predicted 26 overall. No mention of the type of fuel required though, but I'd guess premium. Do you realize that this car is as short as a Ford Festiva was?

kdiddy

Thats good, cuz thats what I'm driving now.

rickrover

Thanks for the Festiva reference point, I've been trying to find an existing car to compare the Mini to. Whenever I see a Geo Metro I imagine cutting about a foot off of that for the size of the Mini.

I've got to re-read all the articles I've collected on the new Mini, for some reason I remember reading MPG as high as 47. This months European Car has an excellent article on the Mini - they said it is geared for economy, not performance. I'd think 47 MPG on the highway wouldn't be hard to achieve, it's only turning 3,100 RPM at 70 MPH in fifth gear.

smchale

Given that these cars are made by BMW, can we expect BMW-like pricey maintenance and repair bills?