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Sorry fxashun, my bad on the NSX /RSX confusion. So what's so special about the RSX's engine that it can go 10K miles between oil changes? (Of course, the severe service interval is probably half that.)
And I couldn't resist pointing out that I had no sludge with 5000-mile oil changes, using Pennzoil and Fram (at first). But I KNOW the oil and filters were changed, because I did the work myself.
Scientific evidence....Yeah like someone is gonna do a real survey. Then we're gonna go to Florida and count ALL the votes. Yeah sure.
Delray I can't believe you just now went out to look under your hood after all this time. This is boring me now. I think from now on I'll just start referring to past posts or cut and pasting. We all are just saying the same thing over and over anyway.
One problem with going back to past posts in Edmunds is that there is no search feature by USER NAME. This would be most helpful.
Speaking of surveys, you are one of the few here with access to tens (hundreds?) of Toyota products a month and COULD actually do a survey. Most of us have only our own cars plus maybe a few friends' cars that we can look at.
Surveys might be one way, however I don't think having someone who has already shown a fairly clear bias is the right person to conduct it.
And then there's the dilemma of internet verification--we already agree on how inconsistent and unreliable this area is.
Incidentally,we've already seen results of some very large surveys done by professionals like JD Power--and we all know what they said.
As an example of my concerns about statements made on the net, I took a hard look at the "Carreview-- Sienna" site which is often touted by advocates as the "Mecca of all sludge reporting sites".
This site contains 92 posts (As of this AM), spanning a period of 19 months. Posts are quite detailed, involving a fair amount of one's time to post.
I counted 14 posts where sludge was mentioned. Half of these reported a problem, and the rest only mentioned it as a concern.
Of the remaining 78 posts, 65 gave the Sienna a 4 or 5 star rating. The remainder were lower ratings, for a variety of reasons.(Not sludge!)
Overall, the Sienna received an approval rating of approx. 70%--which is pretty good compared to other mini vans.
Now, this is interesting. No mention of sludge at all in the first 13 months. Up to that point, just about all posts are positive about Siennas. Beginning in 11/00, one or two posts per month, until 6/01. Then 3 in June/01, and 2 so far in July.So it would first appear that incidents are on the increase.
Until you unpack the posts themselves. Several are so similar in context, as to look like they were cloned. Are they duplicates written by different people, or the same person posting with another name? And one post was actually submitted by an individual claiming that someone else had posted a very negative review using their I.D. Try and figure that one out!!
I surveyed this site to see if it might shed any more logic on the issue. Obviously it didn't. So much for surveys!
Regards, The Pilot.
I feel that my car was mistreated, in the sense that those oil changes were not enough at 5000 miles, not for the short trips I was making. I took my van in for a much needed wash and vacuum, and vow to be a more caring owner from here on in. As I have told you fellows, I have NEVER gone 5000 miles between oil changes, with any of my previous cars!! The old saying "if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is" certainly applies here!!
I just read a report in the AERA (engine rebuilder association)
publication an article on sludge that i think might interest plenty
of peoples here.
WHAT IS ENGINE SLUDGE AND HOW IS IT FORMED??
Engine sludge is a thick, jelly-like substance that is detrimental to
the performance and extended life of an engine. Sludge obstructs
oil passages and restrict oil flow. Once built up it reduces heat
transfer, increase the operating temperature and hampers engine
operation. Sludge will ultimately lead to shorten engine life.
Although the oil appears to be at fault , it is actually the victim of
a mechanical and chemical attack. The formation of sludge is a
complex interaction of components. Each of the following factors
deserve attention.
SOOT: soot is fine powder that is a product of incomplete combustion.
this carbon substance enters the crankcase with exhaust blow-by gases
that escape past the piston rings. Since soot is a very fine powder,
it thickens oil by a process called "soot loading."It gels the oil
like a cake mix thickens milk. If your motor oil becomes excessively
thick, there will be less oil circulated through the engine. Also the
oil will leave a thicker oil film on the engine parts, wich prevents
proper heat transfer. By remaining on the hot parts, the oil will burn
and form deposits.
HEAT: Engine heat , a natural result of internal combustion, take its
toll on your motor oil. In the presence of air, oil undergoes a
process called oxidation, wich becomes more severe as the temperature
increases. Oxidationthickens the oil and produces corrosive acids.
Left unchecked, your oil would degrade into a tar-like mess.
While you want your engine temperature above 210 F to evaporate
unwanted contaminants, above 250 F the oil is more prone to oxidation
At temperature of 300 F this process occurs rapidly.Oil companies have
some addidives that contain powerful oxidation inhibitors. As long as
these inhibitors are presents, no signifiant oxidation will occur.
However , these additives are consumed with time. After their
depletion, oil oxidation proceeds rapidly. Regular oil changes are
needed to remove the unwanted products of combustion and to replenish
the supply of oxidation inhibitors.
FUEL: Fuel enters your crankcase with exhaust blow-by gases in
unburned and partially burned forms. It is chemically unstable;
therefore , it reacts with itself and the oil to form gums, varnishes
and asphaltic-type compounds.These resinous substances are also
unstables and react further to cause even more oil thickening.
WATER: Water gets into your crankcase typically through condensation
or in exhaust gases that escape past the piston rings.It is your
engine job to get rid of this moistureby operating at sufficiently
high temperatures. However , all engines operateperiodically at low
temp and experience some water contamination. When this occurs, Water
becomeemulsified. That is , it is absorbed by the oil, which thickens
the lubricant. As a result, the oil does not flow or cool well. The
increased can cause the oil to burn, creating engine deposits.
Unfortunately, there is not much that engine oil can do to reduce the
harmful effects of water. Oil changes every 3000 miles are the best
way to take care of this problem.
ACIDS: When fuel burns, some product of combustion react with moisture
to form acids. These include sulfuric,hydrochloric and organic acids.
Sulfur-based acids attack the oil reducing its detergency. Organic
acids react withunburned fuel to promote sludge and varnish. In
addition, acids can cause additive setting, or dropout.
DIRT: Peoples associate dirt with engine wear. It can also play a role
in sludge formation. Wear of piston rings and cylinder walls cause an
increase in piston blow-by.Since exhaust gases contain harmful
by-products, their presence in the crankcase should be minimized. Some
of these compounds will escape past the rings.
ENGINE COOLANT(Anti-freeze):Coolant is your engine oil's number one
enemy. Engine sludge is enevitable when oil meets engine coolant.
Contamination of your oil with coolant promotes sludge by two means.
First, it introduce water into the oil. This presents problems that
we've prviously discussed. Second , it brings into contact oil and
coolant, which are incompatibles fluids.
Oil and coolant react to form deposit as they experience temperature
changes in your engine. Some are gooey or gel-like. Others are hard,
brittle deposits that plug oil passageways, reducing oil flow. These
two types of deposit guarantee a shortened life for your engine.
No oil additives will help solve this problem. The only solution is to
drain the oil and locate the source of contamination. Then , have the
mechanical problem repaired. These are the enemies of your engine oil
--Soot,Heat,Fuel,Water,Acid,Dirt,&Engine Coolant.
Sludge formation is the result of one or more of these factors:
--severe service driving with improper drain intervals
--mechanical malfunctions
--inadequate engine maintenance
SEVERE SERVICE DRIVING
1-Short trips/stops & go
-going to the corner store
-driving in crowded downtown
2-Extended idling
- sitting in trafic
- delivery truck operation
3-High temperature operation
- low speed driving at high ambient temperatures
4-Extreme cold
-starting engine below 0 F
5- Heavy loads
-operating in hilly region
- trailer towing
6- Dusty conditions
- more common than expected
Although some of these situations may not seem severe, they all put
additionnal demands on your motor oil. Under these conditions,
automakers require that drain interval be reduced to 3 months or 3000
miles. Severe conditions are not uncommon. It is estimated that we
operate our vehicules 80% of the time under severe service.
MECHANICAL MALFUNCTIONS
A clogged or defective PCV valve can contribute to sludge formation.
If this valve does not operate properly, harmful exhaust gases remain
in the crankcase. These gases, which contain water, acids, soot, etc,
promote sludge.
POOR ENGINE MAINTENANCE
Lack of maintenance is probabely responsible for more sludge engines
than all other categories.
Use the proper oil for your engine. Never use oil that is rated less
than the minimum API Service Category specified by your car
manufacturer.
Some other condition that promote sludge are : clogged air filter, low
oil level, low coolant level, bad fuel , etc.
Often the oil seems to be at fault. But more often oil is the victim
of mechanical malfunctions, extended oil drains or a poorely tuned
engine.
Sorry if this report is so long .
I just hope that you find it interesting and that is give you another
point of vue on this subject.
Jacques.
I am curious if there is any other make that issues a sludge warning in it's owner's manual?
In general, I still have trouble believing that an engine can get so sludged in 15,000 miles that it would destroy the engine, particularly without someone noticing something at the time the oil changes were done. Seems like some pretty nasty stuff would have to be coming out of the crankcase... or not coming out as the case might be...
Sludge is essentially thickened oil... so if you have syrup coming out, wouldn't it be noticable?
Oh,and Faxshun, thanks for the info, I appreciate it.
I guess we can all agree that the engines are failing due to lack of maintenance. But in this case the maintenance requirements seem to be a little more extreme than even the owners manual suggests. I guess if I knew this I would warn customers in some way just to cover my butt. I would put a card or something with every new car....Hey doesn't Toyota do that. hmmmm....
Sounds pretty clear to me--there's no other answer to the problem, according to the Fxashun doctrine!
But wait a minute--is this the same person who just published a copy of an excellent treatise on sludge, spelling out very clearly that there are a variety of other reasons for sludge development?
And didn't the article clearly show where the cause of the problem would most likely be?
I guess I have to call into question the abrupt and premature"Leap to a solution" here, for two reasons.
First, that article was written by an obvious expert on this issue, and unquestionably points toward reasons other than mechanical.
Second-- and I remind you of a point made repeatedly here--neither you or anyone else in this forum has provided any ironclad proof that statements like yours simply cannot be supported. So far, there isn't any evidence!
Therefor, I challenge you to provide substantive proof to support your stated claim-- that Toyota is guilty.
I personally know of 5 people who own other makes of cars, and have experienced gunked engines (needing repairs) at fairly low mileage intervals. To my knowledge, none of these people blame the manufacturer, and admit to harsh driving habits, and/or irregular oil change intervals.
But that's anecdotal evidence, and other than telling you about it, I can't really verify it it. (And one of those cars was an expensive, high end European sports coupe! The others were US Big Three products.)
So why aren't we looking to other makes as one source of info? How come the question--"Ever had Sludge?" hasn't been asked elsewhere?. That's how the discussion got started here, by the way!
Reading this topic makes me nervous about my Accord's engine. I am going to ask the guy who did my oil change to see if there is any sludge problem on my car.
Once again Pilot you are not reading my posts. I agreed that the engines were not recieving the maintenance they required. I have always said that if you change your oil every 3500 miles you should have no problems. I have said that since the beginning back in 1999/2000. BUT the owners manual DOES NOT require such frequent oil changes. Therefore Toyota IS liable if someone comes in and shows they have changed their oil according to the factory specs laid out in the owners manual. What's the problem with that?
Also if someone is looking for a Camry they should "be aware" that even if the maintenance history is provided with the car, they should check for a dirty engine.
Tcpip-Do a search under sludge and Honda in Dejanews.com. There are Honda's that sludge. They are sporadic and I couldn't see a case where there were two posts that implicated the same engine. Also check the year and mileage vs. oil change history. Some of them are extreme.
catgem-Mercedes,BMW, and GMC Chevy trucks have a computer that calculates oil change interval. I put 7000 miles in a year of ownership of my Silverado and the oil change light came on once at around 5400 miles. One of the major magazines had 8000 mile interval on a Benz. Delray says the Acura MDX has 5000/7500 intervals. And the salesman at the Acura dealer where I drove the RSX proudly proclaimed 10,000 oil changes on it.
Pilot-I'm glad to be your poster of choice to try to contradict. But I have been talking about this for over 2 years now. Go back to Camry one....I've never bashed Toyota or anything such as that. I just tell what I have seen. I didn't believe it myself until I went out and checked out a few Camrys on my own(actually more than a few). What I saw with my own eyes was verified by looking on the internet. There is NO engine that has the sludge track record of the 2.2/3.0. This includes all other Toyota engines. When you search Deja there is no mention of any of the other toyota engines with the frequency of these. If it were a "we hate Toyota" campaign why limit it to these engines?
Have you considered calling Mike Wallace at "60 Minutes"?
Acura MDX (same as I reported earlier): severe service 6 months or 3750 miles; normal service: 12 months or 7500 miles.
Hyundai Santa Fe: severe service 3 mo. or 3000 miles; normal service: 6 mo. or 7500 miles.
Isuzu Trooper: severe service 3 mo. or 3000 miles; normal service: 12 months or 7500 miles.
Pontiac Aztek: has GM Oil Life System, with same recommendations as mrrogers' Buick Regal (Post #821)
So catgem, Toyota's recommendations are not greatly out of line with the above.
I thought you (or blackcoupe) said this was in the owners manual - not so? No offense intended to the honest salesmen who post here, but SOME salesmen will say anything....
Also, I hope you were able to get the Texaco dealer to give you copies of the invoices for the oil changes they performed; your credit card receipts won't be adequate, as they will only show the name of the Texaco dealer and the amount paid -- which could be argued by the other side were for filling the tank with gasoline.
My guess is that the Texaco dealer was negligent in some way; as lokki pointed out earlier, engines just don't sludge up overnight. It seems that by the 3rd oil change, they finally noticed something, by then, it was too late.
My old Subaru is every 3,500 severe, and 5,000 normal, but it is a hard working 1.8 engine.
They have a pamphlet you might want to order. Cartalk.cars.com
Oil analyzed in all at least once a year. Analysis has been fine.
After reading all posts and this board for months it seems Toyota manuals on these Siennas need revamping and if 5000 is severe and changes occur at 5000 but sludge is there Toyota needs to belly up to the bar and pay off on the warranty. Lack of oil change is not a reason to void a warranty, the manufacturer must "PROVE" the failure was due to the oil and not the failure to change it. Oil is not covered under warranty and Toyota cannot void a warranty because the changes occured at other then a dealer.
Not a Toyota factory site but interesting.
fxashun: don't get snippy. I didn't "accuse" you of anything, and I'm not going to respond to future personal attacks. I'm just skeptical of what salesmen may say. I checked the Acura website and though it does say the tune-up interval for the RSX is 100,000 miles, it doesn't mention the oil change intervals (it says to check the owners manual). But Acura's new premium SUV, the MDX, has oil change intervals of 3750 miles for severe service and 7500 miles for normal service. I can't see any reason that the RSX's engine is so special that it can go longer between oil changes.
And catgem: I didn't intend to trivialize the difference between 3000 and 5000 miles; rather I had noted that Toyota's oil change recommendations were "not greatly out of line" with those of the other 4 manufacturers. Sorry, but no engine should sludge up as soon as yours did, and I think Toyota is going to get out of it by blaming the Texaco station, especially since you give no indication the service station people are going to back you up.
AND where is the evidence that it ISN'T a problem that seems to bring more Toyotas to a standstill than any other make. I've been waiting for over a year for someone to come up with the "other makes" that have this problem. I haven't seen it yet.
The engine doesn't have to be "special". It's just a more modern and advanced design than the 3.5V6 in the MDX. That engine is getting pretty old as far as Honda engines go.
Hmmm...my Toyota doesn't have this problem nor do hundreds of thousands of others that are on the road. So, I think the statement that it's a fact that Toyota has this problem is a wee bit premature.
"AND where is the evidence that it ISN'T a problem that seems to bring more Toyotas to a standstill than any other make. I've been waiting for over a year for someone to come up with the "other makes" that have this problem. I haven't seen it yet."
Evidence of there not being a problem? Look around, there are hundreds of thousands of these cars on the road today, many (I'm guessing) with well over 100,000 miles on them.
I agree that Toyota should change the documentation in the owners manual, I also think that Toyota should be honoring their warranty when it's terms have been met.
To paint with so broad of a brush and say that this is a problem inherent with these engines is just speculation.
BTW - I'm 6'2" and I can't see around that baffle on the engine, don't know that being taller or having a better angle would make any difference. Pull the valve covers or drop the oil pan to get the real picture.
Scott
I still hope they check her out!!!
Subject: Edmunds Town Hall Engine Sludge Topic
If you go to edmunds.com, click on Town Hall, and search on "engine sludge", you will read a very interesting topic. I assume you are into Six Sigma, so I will suggest two Black Belt projects for you:
1. Increase the size of your oil filter, and see if that reduces the sludge problem in severe service Toyotas.
2. Increase the size of your oil pans by one quart, and see if that reduces the sludge problem in severe service Toyotas. Be well, mrrogers
I will let you know if I receive a reply.
If the Texaco guys felt that 5000 miles was too long to wait before changing the oil, why didn't they say so BEFORE the problems developed?
I went with 5000-mile intervals (over 3 times a year) on my Camry before it started smoking on startup and then had the valve stem seals replaced at 57K miles. No sludge though. Now I've reduced it to 3 months or 3000 miles, just to be on the safe side.
But I'm still sticking with 6 months on my other two vehicles, which go only about 6000-8000 miles per year.
Or maybe the people who were in the Fieros that didn't blow up should have not worried about it.
I guess Honda shouldn't have issued a recall on the gas tanks of the 2001 Civic for the suspected loose bolt....Heck nobody complained about it.
Give me a break. ALL of the cars in question aren't being cared for "by the book". Most people in here say 5000 miles is too far. But Toyota said 5000 miles is fine. So right there we see that some cars are getting car beyond the requirements of the manufacturer. But that's not what is required for the warranty. Toyota specifies 5000 miles and 5000 miles should be sufficient. It ain't so they should pay for those who have documentation's engine repairs since they followed the directions set forth for them.
Those who don't will have to pay for it themselves I guess. BUT since the maintenance requirement for these engines is not correct in the owners manual that means that there are going to be a higher occurence of sludge in the cars with these engines just like I have been saying for freakin ever.
Come on-- you can do better!
Let's see a picture of catgem or fxashun smilin' next to a lacquered up old engine block with 'Toyota' stenciled on it! I think people will tire of this unless you take this bold step!
However, my experience is that they rarely if ever give statements, usually confirm or deny nothing and are pretty useless. Or worse yet, call you and verbally agree but will not place it in writing.
Good luck
But I have a real problem with comments made the armchair quarterbacks who seem obsessed with pointing fingers at the manufacturer and nothing else!
Now we've got another blanket condemnation on the table--"Since the maintenance requirement for these engines is not correct in the owner's manual, that means there will be a higher occurrence of sludged engines---yadda, yadda, yadda." (Post 840-Fxashun)
These kinds of unqualified statements are totally without foundation--a classic example of the addage that " Just enough knowledge to be dangerous!"
One can only guess at the motive behind "Off the wall" statements like that.
There even might be a sincere conviction there, or perhaps a reluctance to admit being wrong, or maybe outright deceit like we've seen displayed by some of the diehard advocates. Who knows?
Regardless of what the experts say, irrespective of documented studies by researchers, and knowledgeable diagnoses by professionals, it doesn't seem to matter to the sidewalk superintendents. It can't be any other reason--Toyota's at fault!
However,I'm not advocating any changes to the constitution in terms of one's right free speech.
What I am advocating is that all of us have a responsibility to avoid making unfounded accusations.
To statements like Fxashun's, I have only one comment: If you feel obliged to accuse, then at least have enough integrity to show proof of that accusation. If you can't, then qualify for what it is--a speculative opinion and nothing more!
If neither of those is acceptable to you, then please cut the comedy!
I have no problem with you speculating on why you think there may be an issue with Toyota engines, but when you come here and spout your theories as "fact" you run into trouble and lose all credibility.
BTW - Burnsville Toyota in Burnsville, MN recommends 3,750 mile intervals based on our climate and harsh driving conditions. They actually put out a supplemental sheet that recommends services based on the MN climate. I'll go with the advise of the techs and error on the side of caution and spend the extra $50 or so per year on oil changes to make sure it's changed every 3,000 or 3 months.
Scott
Look forward to hearing your success story here soon!
Scott
My point is, the supplemental sheet is marketing hype and in court the owner's manual is the evidence, not the dealers hype. The dealer could no more prove "via statistics and studies" that his schedule is any better then the manufacturers. Climate and harsh conditions, my butt!
Thats not happening.
Americans hate coverups ( Irangate, watergate) and i think lots of people would blow the whistle on it if there was a coverup.
My guess is that some people went to the limit on severe duty oil change interval and then maybe some one charged them for an oil change that was not done.
Whats needed is a documented " I changed the oil myself" and still got sludge story.
A third party has no reason to alter mileage in their records when they are making the oil change. Owners with engine problems have been known to create a second set of records with creative bookkeeping.