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Ford Focus ZX3 / SVT vs. Honda Civic Si / RSX



  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    I priced out a SVT 3 door with sunroof and it rang up to $19,695. Ford must have raised the price for 2003.
  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    I agree, wholeheartedly - the US, HB Si is an unqualified bargain at 16K.

    If Honda offered a Type R look-a-like at an SVT price? Seems like a great marketing move to me. LOL, if Honda were to produce a bunch of 'em and price 'em at 18K, Ford would have to stick to trucks.

    Marketing types - humph! Ford did the same thing with the '89 5.0 Stang; took a great value and priced it out of contention. It'll be interesting to see how many of those 19.7K SVT's actually sell in this market; I wouldn't even go test one, knowing that's the purchase price. An SVT at 19+K looks more ridiculous to me than an Si at 19+K.
  • I have no problem with the SI's high revs on the highway. It's quiet and it still has power. It's also still smooth thanks in part to the balance shafts. I had a 01 Mazda Protege ES and that thing was not fun on the highway. Suspension was great but at higher RPM the engine would run out of power and it was buzzy to boot. While the SI may not be smooth if you compare it to a LS430 or something, it is pretty darn smooth for what it is and how short the gearing is.
  • vadpvadp Posts: 1,025
    While some noisy media outlets(those which have no understanding in cars)still bitching about the N.A. Focus recalls, the other more serious publications are quietly giving the car an award after award, basing their conclusions on some other (must be scientific data).

    Here are Polk Automotive Loyalty Award winners - 2002 Model year.

    Ford Focus - a customer loyalty award winner in the small car category for the second time in the row.

    P.S. Awards are based on actual consumer transactions, with over 5 million household records per year being analyzed to determine the winners. It is based on the census of information obtained from state registration and lease transaction information.

  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    LOL, same study shows highest manufacturer loyalty going to GM and highest make loyalty going to Ford. Yum, yum! I think I'll trade for a Cavalier or a Focus, paying extra if I have to.

  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    I don't think it's a conspiracy. I dunno what's counted as 'loyalty'. Repeat buyers of the same manufacturer, line, or model? Whatever it is, it's not enough to induce me to buy GM or Ford.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    shiniest penny in the well. Could the loyal Focus buyers possibly be the same loyal purchasers of lottery tickets? You can't lose if you don't play.
    Just kidding the Focus owners a little bit.
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    I priced out an 03 Civic Si w/ side airbag at $18,249 using my zipcode on carsdirect. So, comparing to the 03 SVT it ain't that big of a difference since your qoute for the 03 Focus SVT is probably MSRP.

    I don't think you can get an accurate qoute for SVTs online. Reliable numbers are probably obtainable at the dealerships and w/ the increased rebates Ford is giving now who knows what the true price of the car is.

    But for me, I'll never buy a Ford product. Let it be a Volvo, Jaguar, Aston Martin (as if I can afford a Vanquish), Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda or whatever else they acquire in the future. Or even rent a Hertz car. I've nothing against their car. I've a personal vendetta towards their employees and they are not going to get even an extra $0.00001 cent from me in their bonus.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    Rebates do not apply to the SVT. It is listed as excluded from rebates and it is listed as excluded from low finance rates from Ford. Since no other information is available on SVT I will have to use MSRP for comparison.
    The low prices for Si in Chicago area are $16,800 for 2003 and $14,995 for 20002.
    Si is still the bargain.
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    Here's a link to a local dealership selling SVT Focus.

    Link to Varsity Ford

    There's $2500 rebate on 02 Focus SVT. Also, 02 ZX3 is only $10,400 or so. Even that comes w/ 16" rims.

    I know I priced an 03 Si and comparing it to an 02 SVT. But at least Ford doesn't have problem comparing a slow selling overpriced non-competitive SVT Focus compared to the Si. The prices that we see on the 02 Si, we can at least agree is not typical. Let's talk more once the 02 runs out and compare the 03 Si. Maybe the 03 Si will be massively discounted too. It is ironic an 02 Si w/ more HP can be had for less money and an 02/03 Civic EX.

    In anycase, I'm on your side esp. on the rim/tire of the Si. Defnitely not worth the $19k MSRP nor the $17.4k INVOICE.
  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    That's my point! An SVT can't be bought for what an Si can, even if somebody wanted to. It looks to me like one could buy an Si, change out wheels, tires, and stereo, and still come out money ahead on an Si - even buying an '03 Si if one 'needed' to do that.
  • That's my point river. With the $2,000 I saved I can get a nice set of 17's and an intake. The SI is already competitive with the Focus in acceleration. Funny thing is I've seen more SI's around here than SVT's. Probably has something to do with Ford only selling 7500 SVT's. Honda just overestimated the market. Had they brought over 7500 SI's the prices would not be close to the $16,400 that I paid back in July or the $15,000 you can get them for now.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    The dealership mentioned does not have an SVT in inventory. They have inventory search available online and they have zero 2002 Focus SVT. It only lists a rebate for the 2002 SVT, but no SVT's to apply the rebate to. Who does have SVT's?
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868

    quote-The Focus SVT has been criticized from within and outside of Ford for extended production delays and Ford's announcement many not settle well with enthusiasts and Ford dealers who want a departure from continued embarrassing quality glitches.-end quote

    Embarrassing is correct in regards to Focus quality.

  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    My take has been that an SVT purchase would be more of a quest and more of an expense than an Si purchase and still yield a less satisfactory result even if successful.

    "Yuck, who needs it!"

    Reminds me of my approach to romance!
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    $5k left over for a whole bunch of performance upgrades. Heck, you don't even have to upgrade to 16" rims since they come w/ 16" rims at that price from the link I provided.

    It is a moot point (referring to anony) to argue that you save $2k from buying the Si over the SVT and you can use the money to buy rims.

    Face it. 02 Si are not selling. Thus the low $15k price. It is not typical. Stop using the lowest absolute price on an Si and compare it to average to high price of SVT Focus.

    If we can't find Si like the SVT Focus sold anywhere, you can bet the dealer will ream your rearend when you show interest in buying the Si. Just count our blessing for those of us who happen to like the Si and live with its shortcomings and got it for $15k. Personally, $16k for me.
  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    That's part of the point, Ham - the difficulty coming up with a real SVT price. You're actually doing what you're acusing Anony of doing - comparing real with unreal prices. 'Tain't worth arguing about.

    Talking about a 10.5K ZX3 makes sense. That puts the ZX3 in the frame I have for the Mazda Protege - good handling, a little weak in the power department, questionable reliability and resale. I.e., for me, not a bad choice but one to be opted for only if $'s are too tight for an Si.

    ZX3 vs. Pro? I'd go ZX3, mostly for the looks.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    quote- Stop using the lowest absolute price on an Si and compare it to average to high price of SVT Focus. -end quote

    I can not find any advertised price for the SVT other than MSRP. If I could find a different price I would use it. The price I used for Si is certainly not the lowest possible, other people have stated that they have purchased for less than $14,500. I do not use that price for Si because I can not confirm it.
    Heck, I can not even find an SVT in inventory.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    I did a different type of search and found about 20 Focus SVT 2002 for sale in US. 8 of them were used or demo but there was one for $15,998 in TN with 860 miles which is a great deal. Just posting so I'm not too biased:)
  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    '02 SVT with 860 miles @ 16K vs. '02 Si with 20 miles @ 15K. Yum, yum! Gimme that Ford product!

  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    Already broken/broken in/broken up, too! YUM!
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    Just to let you know, I wasn't referring to you. In fact almost all my post are referring to anony and gee35 coz' I don't have a life and I love to dissect each and every word they post.

    But can we at least agree that the average purchased price for the 02 Si is around $17k since some bought them at $18k-$19k and some of us bought them at $15-$16k. Since the SVT doesn't have mass discounting like the slow selling Si (whether because it was non-competitive, overpriced or oversupplied, whatever the reason), the average price is probably around $17k as well.

    For every Honda geek that drools over an Si, you can also find a red-blooded American who drools over a Focus SVT.

    Resale value comparison is usually done unfairly. In the past, Civics enjoyed a very high resale value coz' they were purchased a little above invoice/at invoice/below invoice. Compare this to their counterpart (American cars), they were massively discount to move. In the end, you can have a 99 Civic EX selling for the same as a 99 Ford Taurus for example. But then we tend to look at the non-discounted Taurus price and compare that to the Civic (KBB/Edmunds etc. is guilty of doing this when they factor in depreciation) and claim Honda is the king of high resale value.

    What about the people who paid $18-$19k or even more when the Si first came out. These poor people are seeing a hit of about $4k comparing to new 02 Si sitting on the lot. I would prefer if we compare it to the 03 Si which are selling around $16-$17k. Hopefully these will sell well. Otherwise, when it comes time to sell my car, I'll be lucky to get $10k in 3 years time in a private sale. Minivan looks, hatchback and puny rims + small HP doesn't help either when competition will continue to offer more HP, better cars and reliability to boot.I might have to make my current beater (the 02 Si) to be the beater of my next beater down the road.
  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    I know you were replying to Mopar and not me, but I don't get your point.
  • Before everyone falls his/her stool laughing over this comparison (btw, I could not think of where else to talk about this except the" vs. Civic Si" thread), for fun I want to point out that the January 2003 issue of Autocar (UK publication, limited availability in North America) does just that, in a full-fledged, 12-page story called "The Road Trip." The reporters race all over Germany, Spain, France and Italy, and ultimately conclude...get this..."in the wet (the Focus) was unbeatable and in the dry it was rarely left behind....So while the Lambo is truly an exceptional supercar, it's the RS that's the greater achievement."

    In 2001, I had the opportunity to do a similiar thing: drive a Focus from London to Paris, via the Eurorail car shuttle (had to swap for a left-hand drive car on the French side, Hertz's "Le Swap" lol). It was a fantastic drive and I highly recommend it. Most relevant to this board's topic, the Focus was amazing at speed. The flow of traffic was in excess of 100 mph throughout northern France, and the car was extremely stable and composed at this cruising speed, and when I punched the accelerator in 5th gear at 100 mph (the top speed I hit was 110), it wanted to keep running. It has definitely been designed in Europe for European-style driving. The visibility and driving position contributed to my sense of being in control of that car. I was passed by several vehicles: Honda S2000, Porsche 996, Japanese racing bikes, the Eurostar passenger train....but the Focus was very much in its element and is a good GT for long trips across Europe.

    As for the Honda Si, I have never driven a current one, but did once own a Honda Civic CRX Si. It was like a big go-cart: quick responses and stayed glued to the pavement no matter how hard I pushed it into corners. I can't say how stable it is at 100 mph, because I never drove it that fast. The Civic Si and Focus RS are great cars. Since I don't own either one, and haven't driven the current Civic Si, I'll reserve judgment on which one is better.
  • vadpvadp Posts: 1,025
    Focus RS against Civic Si? Are you really that funny?
    But seriously, I think you don't realize that you have mistaken the Focus RS for some other model, probably the Focus ST170.
    Or maybe you meant the Civic R instead of the Civic Si?
  • I'm not sure what you're talking about. The comparison in Autocar was RS (cost 20,000 GBP) vs. Lambo (cost 200,000 GBP). The RS was a stock RS straight from the factory.

    I did not compare the RS directly to the Si. I said that I had driven a Focus and once owned a CRX Si (the discontinued 2-seat version of the Civic Si). It's not really fair to compare a 1991 CRX to a 2001 Focus, so I did offer any opinion on which is the better car.
  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    What we're talking about here is a 32K dollars (US) Focus. The type R Civic we're so tickled about stickers at 27K dollars in the UK. Even with the same % discount we're seeing here in the US, the type R would cost about 22K dollars.

    That all seems right to me, getting what you pay for and all that.
  • vadpvadp Posts: 1,025
    Well, I'm sorry for misunderstanding, but I can only read your words, not your mind.
    "The Civic Si and Focus RS are great cars. Since I don't own either one, and haven't driven the current Civic Si, I'll reserve judgment on which one is better."
  • vadpvadp Posts: 1,025
    Nobody knows when if ever the Civic TypeR or Focus RS will ever make their way to this shores.
    But you allready seem to have all the prices lined up.;)
    My guess would be that you're really good with the stocks.;)
This discussion has been closed.