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2005 Subaru Legacy

sube555lgtsube555lgt Posts: 78
edited March 2014 in Subaru
The rumor mill is starting to really ramp up. Now I won't give away all details, but I am hearing a 2.5GT with 250hp and plenty of torque. It is also said to very potentially carry a 6MT (probably for less warranty claims because of driver carelessness) as well as the 5EAT.

The word on the street is that they are still researching potential pricing on this matter. I would like to know where everyone sits on this. Now, I do know that everyone would like these for free, but try to be reasonable.

My ideas:
 -BASE includes: Cloth Interior, Manually-Adjusting Seats, No Sunroof, Manual Transmission, 6-Disc CD Changer w/ current premium sound (NOT Macintosh.)

*BASE Sedan GT: 25,595-25,995
 *BASE Wagon GT: 25,995-26,395

Limited or Premium Packages include: Power Leather Seating, Sunroof, Macintosh Audio
 *Sedan GT: 26,995-27,495
 *Wagon GT: 27,395-27,995
 
That would price these VERY competitively and rather reasonable. Taking away the luxury amenities (leather, power seats, etc.) for those that just want the sport and room should allow the Legacy to drop right into the given slots with the major upgrades and the cost difference. I would like to say I would love a base wagon in Silver but can't really afford to go above $26,000. I would settle for a sedan if need be. Anything significantly higher and I think they would be marketing themselves out of their price range. At this pricing, I think these vehicles would sell like hotcakes. Even if the BASE-type model was available only by order only, it would be well worth it for Subaru in my opinion.
 
Any thoughts?
«1

Comments

  • Either your base price is too high or the loaded price is too low. I'm guessing it could be a little of both. The current GT w/ leather and sunroof is $25,100 which is pretty maxed out except for the McIntosh. The price difference between NA and turbo models of Impreza (RS to WRX) is $4500 and on the Forester (XS to XT) about $1800 so I can settle on a $2000-2500 increase. Add in the McIntosh and the sedan will definitely break the $27,000 mark. I am hoping to see the most expensive model ending about $31,000 like the Outback VDC ($32,500 for wagon w/ dual sunroof). One thing that could cause an additional increase is the potential higher price of the Sportshift automatic.

    Basically, I think that a loaded Legacy needs to come in at the base price of a G35. If we're talking a G35 AWD, that will probably be about $32,000. Premium (sunroof, Bose, seat memory, power passenger, reclining rear seat, dual zone climate, etc.) is another $3200. If the Legacy doesn't hit this price, I may have a really hard time justifying the Subaru over an Infiniti.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    My proposal:

    L: delete moonroof, but keep the price the same with a slight boost in power, bigger interior, and a few extra niceties

    GT: 2.5 turbo engine substitute heated leather seats, keep pricing close to current car, maybe $500 higher. That's what I would want.

    GT Limited: equipped like the current 2.5GT, just $2000 more for the turbo.

    The current 2.5GT doesn't sell in significant volumes largely due to the price/performance. Meanwhile the L/SE is HOT and sells well, as a great value.

    -juice
  • Sorry, would have responded back a little sooner, been a little busy.

    I don't think the pricing I have up there is too far out on a limb. They used to market two varieties, a GT and GT Limited as Ateixeira mentioned. But I do see room in that line-up for yet another model. 6 models (assuming wagon and sedans of each trim) would be about minimal, right now the Outbacks are finally down to 8 (10 in 2003) models. (I just happened to look at the Subaru site which must have been updated for 2004 Legacy and Outback models with the Legacy now bearing 2 models each in Sedan/Wagon. I also notice the color selection has been updated too. Just looking over the 2004 selection, looks like they're moving in the right direction. I can see what they mean by upscale, doesn't look too significant, but none-the-less, a good change.

    Back to models, as looking at the current GT Sedan and Wagon priced at 25,095 and 25,995 respectively, there is some room to play with. I don't know how many people over here frequent NASIOC and here, but on NASIOC a couple of months back there was a huge debate brewing, many want the option of opting out of leather and power seats to make way for a better price and that is something many enthusiasts don't want. We've been crying for such a car. Making those components (cloth interior, perhaps manual adjusting seats if some of us are lucky), as an optional order-only delete Premium Seating would work fine. This wouldn't be a significant amount of work for SOA and would constitute for a small number of sales, none-the-less still sales. Other contries can have their GT this way, why can't the largest market on the planet as well? With the currently over-inflated GT pricing, loss of leather, the GT with turbo and performance upgrades over current could fall into the prcing slot perfectly. The GT Wagon may go above the pricing slot by a marginal amount though.

    Here is how I see the models:

    Legacy S Sedan (signify 'Sport') similar to L Anniv. - $20,995
    Legacy S Wagon (signify 'Sport') similar to L Anniv. - $21,895

    Legacy ST Sedan ('Sport Touring') using 04 GT Brakes/ Rear LSD/ 2.5L AVCS engine w/ 200/200 and sporty suspension - $22,495
    Legacy ST Wagon ('Sport Touring') using 04 GT Brakes/ Rear LSD/ 2.5L AVCS engine w/ 200/200 and sporty suspension - $23,395

    Legacy GT Sedan ('Grand Touring') with as mentioned but in cloth, manual seats - $25,595-25,995
    Legacy GT Wagon ('Grand Touring') with as mentioned but in cloth, manual seats - $25,995-26,395

    Legacy GT Limited models include: Power Leather Heated Seats, Macintosh Audio, Security Pack - $add 1,500-2,000

    As looking at current line-up, moonroofs are standard and good for the up-scale image. I don't think this increadibly unreasonable. Making a line of performance suspension, brake, drivetrain, and performance parts available that STi makes available in Japan would make these models still affordable if optioned out further for performance enhancements if Subaru would decide to. Also, being the competition of V6 models to the GT being slightly priced below those levels would make these models rather available and a worthy alternative to those 'Plain Jane' models. I really don't think this is too large a line-up.

    PPower, I think we can leave the $30k+ range for a future STi model. Pricing these models in this range would make them sell like hotcakes. In this market, it's all about affordability and value, pricing in the $30k range bar STi models and top of the line Outback models is rediculous IMHO. You're not adding that significant a package to raise the price $5,000. The current GT I would value at $1,500 less than it really costs, that's about halfway priced between a L Anniversary model and a GT, that's about how much better a GT is than an L Anniv. BTW, the Forester XT in semi comparable form to what I'd be looking for in the interior with the chassis changes and slightly upgrade engine comes in $1,000 below my suggested base Legacy GT pricing. That's just some food for thought.

    Anyone think my suggested ST model is well placed and a good idea? I find it a good alternative to a GT for those who can't quite afford the turbo or don't want one.

    Okay, fire away.
  • dcm61dcm61 Posts: 1,567
    I don't need a turbo or an H-6 but would welcome a bump in HP on the H-4. 190 or 200 HP (or even 180-185, since the new gen will be lighter) on 87 octane would work for me. I'd like an Outback ST wagon w/ 5EAT / VTD & single moonroof please.

    DaveM
  • I would just like to add that I wish that the moonroof was optional. Taller drivers don't want it, and it is an expensive piece that raises up the price. While Subaru is trying to move upscale/premium, they still are the new kids on the block and have to focus on their price. No moonroof and no power/leather seats like you mention would help out with that. Cross our fingers.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,105
    Short drivers (like me!) don't necessarily want it either. I've had several cars with them, and I almost never open them, or derive any pleasure from them. On my most recent vehicle, I specifically requested that the salesman find me a car without a roof as I wasn't prepared to pay money for that feature.

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    ST would interest me if they could tune it to run on 87 octane. That might be tough, though.

    Maybe a moonroof could be a stand-alone option. Leather too.

    Things like HIDs and Navigation could be SPT parts.

    -juice
  • I think we're more into options than Subaru is. If it was up to me, these are some of the things I would have standard, and as options.

    New Standard:
    -One-touch all windows down (not just drivers door), or selectable in single, double or 4 windows via a toggle like the power mirror toggle
    -60/40 split-folding rear seat on ALL sedans and wagons
    -Good, solid silky-smooth short throw shifter for all MT sport models
    -Standard Security Package Upgrade on turbo/H6 models

    Options:
    -Delete option for power-leather seats to manually-adjusting cloth seats (option of STi bucket seats)
    http://www.japanparts.com/Pic/pic003/027-015.jpg
    -Single fully operable moonroof (both sedan and wagon) stand-alone or available in package
    -Cold weather package (heated seats and mirrors)
    -HID Headlamps
    -Navigation System
    -Auto-Dimming Mirror
    -Factory Window Tint

    STi/SPT Options:
    -STi Sports Package: Silicone Intercooler Hoses, Sports ECU (~$300-500) good for maybe 280hp up from 250hp
    -STi Brake Package: Stainless Steel Brake Lines, Upgraded Pads (~$500)
    -SPT Handling Package: Rear Sway Bar Upgrade, Upgraded Springs, Adjustable Dampeners, Associating Bushings
    (~$1500)
    -STi Front LSD (~$750?)

    The biggest thing, make the parts affordable. People will buy them. I've heard Subaru was disgusted when they saw Subaru fans with their WRX's and non-Subaru parts on the cars. It's inevitable, people want a chance to customize their performance vehicles. Subaru can get in on this too, but that have to offer some reasonable parts at reasonable prices. Comfort is one thing, that's easy to offer those options, but catering to enthusiasts is something else. They will always look for areas to improve a car, they just have to know what we're looking for and listen to the customers. That is why SPT/STi parts haven't sold too well over here so far. Not everyone bases their decisions on luxury options.
  • big_guybig_guy Posts: 372
    I 2nd the vote for making the moon roof an option . . . not STANDARD equipment. I think that they should be optional on ALL cars. I really like Subarus and would love to own one but they always package all the "fun-stuff" and their higher end models with a moon roof. Because of this, I don't fit into the Subaru models with the moon roof (BTW, I'm 6'-7" tall).
  • bigelmbigelm Posts: 995
    I'm 6'5" and I can't see myself with a moonroof. Yes, it may sacrifice an inch or so but I like opening the roof just about every sunny day....

    But I do agree, it should be an option unless packaged with other worthwhile options like navigation, 10 way power seats (as opposed to 8 way)....

    Just throwing some things out there just for understanding before I get flamed....
  • Have you visited the Subaru Global site? They show a beautiful vehicle, with NO air scoop and optional sunroof. Now if we could only get the top tech specs with premium cloth seats, I would buy today. Does anyone really think the air scoop looks good? I was sad to see they junked up the supercharged Forester with one. I am hoping for the best.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    is not there to look "pretty;" it's there to feed the turbo's intercooler. Only turbocharged Subarus get the hood scoop.

    BTW, the Forester XT is turbocharged, not supercharged.

    Bob
  • I think the TMIC (Top-Mount Intercooler) scoop looks great on a Legacy, far better than any other model. As Bob pointed out it is there for function over form. Mounting the intercooler there is optimal location on a Subaru to reduce the most amount of plumbing for the turbo setup, in turn increases efficiency and performance. The reason the IC on the new Legacy is much more subdued is the profile of the vehicle. The Legacy has always had more efficient lines which get more air to the TMIC therefore reducing the extra height needed to pull air at higher speeds. It's a good thing in more ways than one.

    Oh and yes, I want a new turbo Leg BAD! Bob, you know this. ;) Though I'd settle for a WRX Wagon, WRX STi Wagon would be supreme! I'm all about the performance over luxury or comfort though. ;)
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Yes, there are other turbocharged cars without hood scoops, Volvo for one. However, all Subaru rally racers have hood scoops, again to better feed the intercooler, so there must be good sound engineering reasons for turbo Subarus to have hood scoops.

    While it does serve a marketing purpose, in that the hood scoop makes it easy to ID the turbos from other Subies, that's more of a byproduct than anything else.

    Bob
  • It mostly has to do with the efficiency in exhaust and intercooler plumbing on a Boxer config. As bob noted there are others that use different intercooling methods, but those are all other engine configurations as well.

    Also as noted, some of the earlier Subarus 97-99 Legacy(96?) GT and OB models, 98-01 Impreza RS and OBS had hood scoops for the performance image. Now we're finally starting to get past the image deal and into function! Yippee!
  • I stand corrected on the turbocharged thing, but after six years with a non-functional scoop on my 1997 Outback, I do not think they will improve the image of what should be a first class sport sedan. Is it really necessary? Understand that the boxer engine is different, but audi and saab keep clean lines on their sedans, to their great benefit.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The top-mounted intercooler is easy to access, plus it's just a Subaru styling cue.

    FWIW, at Summit Point there was an EVO and the guy was having a problem with the plumbing on his front-mounted intercooler. Access was horrible, he was showing me. He actually left the track twice and never really got any track time.

    -juice
  • setzersetzer Posts: 127
    what's the point of the Legacy wagon? All it is is an Outback.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    Not everyone likes the Outback. A Legacy GT wagon is my preferred variant.
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    is a raised suspension version of the Legacy. Different tires, more ground clearance, lower cladding. And up to now (not sure about the '05's) the Outback was the only Subaru available with an H6.

    -Brian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Actually, Legacy came first. The Outback variant was added and became a huge success, but still it's that model that was based on the Legacy, not the other way around.

    The L/SE model was successful, the current 2.5GT was not. The L/SE did a lot of volume, not quite matching the Outback, but contributing significantly to Subaru's bottom line.

    -juice
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,469
    "what's the point of the Legacy wagon? All it is is an Outback."

    Legacy costs less, looks less garish (no cladding), handles better (lower to the ground)especially in GT form, rides better.

    The Outback has more ground clearance so it is better for real deep snow, or rough trails. The main difference is the "rugged" image that some people like.

    I am anxiously awaiting the '05 Legacy L. If it is available without a sunroof, and the mileage improves (as it did for the Japanese model) then I may consider one. I have given up on the Mazda 6 wagon. Only available with a V-6 - which uses as much gas as some SUV's.
  • trueawdtrueawd Posts: 64
    You can and will in 05 only be able to get a H6 in the Outback Wagon and Sedan. That might be a reason, plus all the others stated...ground clearance, ruggedness, etc...
  • Personally, I could see the Outback Sedan dropped. I think the USA and Canada are the only 2 places it exists and I don't see too many of them. I just can't see the purpose, Sport Utility, sedan doesn't really fit the utility aspect which is a main part of the Outback- go nearly anywhere with all your gear.

    Secondly the Legacy Wagon issue: I don't know too many people that would see it the same. They fit 2 different images for 2 different crowds. I know many people that love the Legacy Wagon but would NEVER want an Outback or have to pay for all the extra stuff it has which they would never use. My dad is one of them as well as several Legacy people I know. Therefore 2 completely different markets.

    Personally I'm torn between a Legacy GT turbo Wagon and Sedan. The sedan will be a little faster, but the sleeper is a hair less. Both look excellent and can perform very well. I can tell you though considering I am driven for performance and handling beyond stock, an Outback isn't even remotely an option.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    In Britain, at least, the Legacy is now available with a horizontally opposed, 6 cylinder, DOHC/Bank, AVCS (Active valve control system) engine with 4 valves per cylinder. Or at least that is what the website says.

    That doesn't necessarily mean that it will be available that way in the US or Canada, but it is in Britain.
  • trueawdtrueawd Posts: 64
    Thats' true they do have a 3.0 in other contries, but I've heard that will not happen here at least not this year.
  • I wouldn't necessarily bet anything against it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It's Official: 250hp, 0-60 in 5.5 seconds! :o)

    -juice
  • JUICE - Now that's a lot better than 6.3something seconds.
    Where did you find out that's it's 5.5?
    Is the 250hp v4 turbo or v6 w/out?
    Just gets better everytime I read about the Legacy.
  • Ken,
    Subaru's use boxer or H4/H6 engines. The new GT is a turbocharged 2.5 liter H4.

    http://www.need-desire.com/main.html

    -Ian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    180 degree V; let's call it an H4, Flat 4, or Boxer 4.

    That was for the Turbo. The 2.5i model gets 168hp and the same 166 lb-ft from the current engine, but with significant weight loss (including aluminum hoods on all models) it'll still be quicker, maybe high 7s with a manual.

    -juice
  • I'm really happy with all the details minus the stronger 6MT which I was told was supposed to debut in the most brutal market, the U.S. I don't take the bait on the 'Reinforced' 5MT. Sounds like just the same 5MT in the XT. The design is 20 years old regardless and wasn't designed for these stresses. Considering my encounters with 5MTs and the people I've talked to who have serviced them, I am verygunshy towards any itteration of the current MT design. If it was a completely new one based on the 6MT design characteristics, maybe I'd be a bit more confidant of it.

    Other than the drivetrain for the most part I'm really happy with the rest of the package.
  • bat1161bat1161 Posts: 1,784
    Sedan looks nice, but how come only 1 shot of the wagon? This is definitely something to take a closer look at.

    Mark
  • Hello I'm new to the forum but, not new to Subies.
    the new 05'Legacy sedan and Wagon GT will carry the Euopean version of the STI motor and it will have hp and 250ft/t .Better chasis and better brakes will standard. If you want more info go to subaru.net or go to the international auto show web site to see more pics and specs.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,105
    Welcome, legacy191. Glad to have you here in Town Hall!

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  • kenokakenoka Posts: 218
    Welcome aboard. No, the USDM Legacy GT will not carry the European version of the STi motor. It has a version of the turbocharged 2.5 liter mill found in the USDM Forester XT and the USDM STi.
  • Sorry,I got early info and found out it was wrong. The Legacy will get the 250hp version of the 2.5 that is found in the USDM STI. Again sorry about that.
  • Is it a new unit, or ported over from the WRX and/or Forrester?
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    Reinforced 5-speed manual or optional 5-Speed with sport-shift.

    http://www.need-desire.com/main.html

    Not too worried about the 5-speed manual. With the bleeder valve on the WRXs, this has been great on my car. Plenty of spirited driving, no issues.

    Read in C&D over a year ago that the new Legacy would also try to steer WRX owners who need want a bigger vehicle / more luxury oriented vehicle. I think the new GT does this.

    With Subaru still a small player, I would be surprised if the GT limited was priced above an Accord EX V6, even if it is faster and better handling. That would make the GT limited around $28K or less.
  • In the event that the '05 Legacy/Outback does not have a Nav option, could anyone recommend a 4 wheel drive sedan with a Nav system that is moderately priced - under 30k?
  • ntk1ntk1 Posts: 57
    Hello, I am new to this message board.
    Visited a Sub dealer yesterday to look at the WRX, good performance /value but too small for me. The rep told me about the upcoming legacy turbo but had little information hence my arrival here.
    I currently have an Acura TL type S that will be returned off lease at the end of April so the expected arrival of the legacy in June is a stretch but would be worth it if the performance was good enough. I read earlier of a 0-60 of 5.5, has this been confirmed ? was this from a road test or calculated ? also does anyone know data for 0-100 and quarter mile ?
  • I'd say get a subaru and an aftermarket nav system. You can get handheld GPS systems for a few hundred bucks.

    For a price comparable to something you'd get in an Audi or a Volvo, it'll set you back 500 to 1,000.
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    "I currently have an Acura TL type S that will be returned off lease at the end of April so the expected arrival of the legacy in June is a stretch but would be worth it if the performance was good enough. I read earlier of a 0-60 of 5.5, has this been confirmed ? was this from a road test or calculated ? also does anyone know data for 0-100 and quarter mile?"

    - No official performance data is out yet on the Legacy. The 5.5 is from Subaru and is for the manual (though, who knows, the auto might come close). Considering that the engine is very similiar to the one in the Forester XT, and that the car should weigh about the same as the Forester XT (might be even a little less), the 5.5 secs. for the manual sounds conservative. Would expect the car to do 0-60 in around 5.1-5.3 secs. Especially since the reported power numbers on the GT are higher than the Forester, and the car has to be more aerodynamic!

    Would also expect the 1/4 mile to be impressive as well.

    - Usually Subaru is conservative with their acceleration numbers. They originally posted the WRX of doing 0-60 in 6.4 secs. In actuallity, the average for the WRX has been 5.7 secs.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think the Mazda3 offers a Nav option, it may be the cheapest model to do so. My guess is they probably made one for the Volvo S40, and then figured why not let Mazda sell it also, since they share a platform?

    A 2 month gap is a long time, do you have a beater you could use in the interim?

    The Forester XT was clocked at 5.3 seconds to 60, 1/4 mile in 13.8 IIRC. The new Legacy turbo will have 40 more horses and only weighs slightly more, so do the math.

    -juice
  • This stat used to be listed in the Need-Desire.Com webstie for the Leagcy. I noticed they removed that claim around the first week of February. Hmm? Are they trying to play it safe because the automatic can't make that time. Or was it a overzealous claim? I hope the car can break the 6 sec. 0-60 mark.
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    "This stat used to be listed in the Need-Desire.Com webstie for the Leagcy. I noticed they removed that claim around the first week of February. Hmm? Are they trying to play it safe because the automatic can't make that time. Or was it a overzealous claim? I hope the car can break the 6 sec. 0-60 mark. "

    - No idea, but did see the 5.5 secs on the site two weeks ago. They were advertising the WRX at 6.4 secs, even though it was uncertain the Auto could do it (still not sure if the auto can).

    - The Auto for the GT might hit the 6 sec. mark for 0-60 though. More low-end torque vs. the WRX.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They're generally conservative. They were saying the Forseter XT would go from 0-100 kph in 6.1 seconds, the production model was quicker.

    I think that was SoC.

    -juice
  • The 05 Legacy is an option for my next car this year however I have sat in an 04 legacy and found that it did not have enough headroom. I am 6 foot 3 and I am curious if anyone has sat in the car yet and if so is there a considerable amount more headroom in the 05 compared to 04 (04 did not have power seats and had a sunroof).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Not sure about the change in front headroom. I can tell you the sedan has much, much better rear headroom.

    I took a pic of this, lemme see if I can find it:

    http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288069365&p=4194565477- &idx=47

    It's picture 47 in that album, I think you may have to register at Imagestation.com.

    I'm 6' and the rear head room leaves plenty of space above my head even with the moonroof on the sedan. The wagon is even better.

    -juice
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,469
    The Pontiac Vibe(Toyota Matrix) has an in dash DVD based Nav system, and it is available with AWD. That is the least expensive Nav/AWD I can think of.
This discussion has been closed.