I tried one tank of the middle gas in my HH (second or third fill-up) and it did not seem to make any difference in mileage. However, we have a '93 Toyota pick-up bought in '99 that can not run on regular gas. Knocks and pings all over the place. We have to run the middle level gas in it to keep it running properly. And husband was told he has to run the super premium in his BMW (same as I was told about the Acura I traded for my HH). I've heard people say you don't have to but he's convinced he has to in a high performance engine.
I'll try but will wait a few thousand miles to ensure breakin and let the temperatures stabilize. The temps have dropped about 10-15 degrees since we first bought it.
Took a snapshot of my nav screen a few miles before my first fillup. I actually filled up at 414 miles, and my hand calculated mpg came out the same (didn't expect that). I'm pretty pleased, this being my very first tank. Thanks to all here who posted hypermiler tips; they really helped.
Most of the miles were from my ~14 mile commute each way to work, mostly highway, with small hills (well, for San Antonio anyway). Lots of p&g. Coasting down the hills really racks up the regen.
A couple of posters here asked why HH seems to be getting better HWY mileage than CITY mileage. Here is a report of an experiment we did with our Ltd, 4WDi. For readers in the CA SF Bay Area, we name the towns and freeway so you can try it.
For freeway, we reset the on-board MPG as we enter the on-ramp and take down the MPG number after coming to a stop at end of off-ramp.
For streets, we reset before moving from our house and take the measurement upon returning and stopping.
In all cases, we used CRUISE whenever possible, almost 99% of the time. Trips were taken between 1PM and 4PM on weekdays. No traffic jam, no rain, no CHP but also no abnormal hard acceleration.
The numbers below are all averages over multiple trips. I did not round up or down, simply dropped the floating point.
(1) HWY 50-miles round trip (CA, HWY101, San Martin Alum Rock, San Jose) 75-MPH got 21-mpg. 90% at 75, the rest lower. 2 trips at this speed. 70-MPH got 23-mpg. 90% at 70, the rest lower. 3 trips at this speed. 65-MPH got 26-mpg. 90% at 65, the rest lower. 6 trips at this speed.
(2) Same 2 points of travel as above but used country (Monterey HWY) highway wih 55-MPH limit. Distance increased a bit to 58 miles roundtrip. We did this 5 times. For each round trip, we drove 55-MPH for a total of 28 miles rountrip on Monterey HWY. and 65-MPH for 30 miles roundtrip on HWY 101. Average is 28 MPG.
(3) City Streets (San Martin, Gilroy area) 15 miles round trip. Multiple stops to drop off and pick up WITHOUT engine off. Without Hypermiling, only normal P&G : 30 MPG. We did this 4 times. With Hypermiling : 35 MPG. We did this 3 times.
I know this is only 1 car but still hope it satisfies the couple of posters wondering about HWY vs City mileage. The HH is achieving EPA numbers, a nice surprise.
We also found out why our winter mileage has suffered. The A/C was left ON whenever we run the air and we run it a lot. In our area, winter can still get sunny warm and the A/C will come on quietly when we use AUTO mode. This is killing our mileage. Turning A/C off has put us back into the 27-28 mpg range.
1) were these all computer calculations? would you expect actual mileage to be adjusted down slightly?
2) It never ceases to amaze me how mileage affects FE. In your country highway trip, you went half the distance at 65 mph and the other half at 55mph. if you extrapolate based on your previous 65 mph data, would you suspect you would get 30 mpg if you did a straight 55mph?
3) Does the electric motor kick on and off during highway driving? I always thought toyota hybrids got better mileage on city (as you've shown) because the electic motor makes up for the car's inefficiency during stop and go traffic. yet the highway mileage is better than the V6 highlander where I always assumed the electric motor didn't increase effiency.
1) were these all computer calculations? would you expect actual mileage to be adjusted down slightly? Yes they are computer numbers. I will adjust all numbers down 3.5%. This is based on what we see at end of tank. The on-board number is on average, 3.5% higher/better than our hand calculated MPG number at end of a tank.
"2)...if you extrapolate based on your previous 65 mph data, would you suspect you would get 30 mpg if you did a straight 55mph? Yes but only if terrain cooperates. The stretch of HWY 101 we drove has 1 small (100-ft?) and 2 larger up slope (500-ft+?). I was actually surprised it came out at 26-mpg at 65-MPH, most likely the down slope helped because the ICE shut off on the way down.
The country highway is fairly flat, and when we drove only that stretch, the mileage actually came out at 31-mpg at 55-MPH. I did not post this because I did it only once and it was not a "realistic" or "useful" trip that we would take to go places. We just drove to the end and turned around .
3) Does the electric motor kick on and off during highway driving? Yes but only when CRUISE is ON. When we drive with CRUISE OFF, the electric motor comes on much less often if at all unless we accelerate.
We now drive everywhere, city and freeway, with CRUISE ON and we no longer sweat the ICE running. Whenever the electric motor kicks in, the FE goes up so having the ICE running or not running is no longer a big concern.
We also let the CRUISE resume to a higher speed because it knows to accelerate smoothly returning around 10+ MPG during acceleration. My heavier foot always accelerate harder, netting no better than 5-6 MPG during acceleration.
To clarify, we did not use hypermiling (except where noted) for this experiment. Hypermiling means finding flat roads with few stops, few cars and no overpasses. It also means driving significantly slower that posted speed, often down to 30-35 MPH.
We did this experiment using our normally conservative style with modified P&G. No hard acceleration, lots of proactive coasting when in traffic.
So by driving with some common sense care, and without needing to hypermile, the HH is indeed capable of matching EPA MPG numbers when terrain cooperates. At least here in our area . Drive it hard (75-MPH) and the FE sinks like lead.
We also found out why our winter mileage has suffered. The A/C was left ON whenever we run the air and we run it a lot. In our area, winter can still get sunny warm and the A/C will come on quietly when we use AUTO mode. This is killing our mileage. Turning A/C off has put us back into the 27-28 mpg range.
That's interesting, my FE started going down as soon as I started using the heater in the morning. What I noticed was that when I didn't use the heater, my car would run on battery most of the way through our neighborhood. But when I used the heater, the ICE was on the whole way. I think this is because the HH wants to heat up the engine so that it can generate the heat for the heater. That overrides using the battery. I had been getting around 28 - 29 MPG each fillup (manualy calculated). With the heater on in the morning, it's dropping down to around 26.
I had 5000 miles on my HH last September 2005 and left Southern Tier New York and headed for Jacksonville Florida and running 80 miles per hour on the interstates and I got 26.6 average miles per gallon for this trip. Now in March 2006 I travel 50 miles to work each day, about 12 miles city and the rest on the highway at 70 miles per hour. I been still getting 26.3 average mile per gallon. Got 13000 miles on this HH and it is still winter here in southern New York. EPA numbers for this HH is 27 average miles per gallon. So,you all can talk about this Hybrid being bad on EPA numbers, But I don't have any problem with this 2 ton HH. If you are getting below 22 average miles per gallon, then something is wrong. I don't feather or play and other games with my HH, I just drive it and if you get in my way, I will pass you with the gas peddle to the floor.
I agree with Mike4698 - I have over 18,000 miles on my HH and my overall average MPG is 27. That includes driving it from Baltimore to Denver when I first got it plus a trip out to California and back over Christmas. My daily commute is 37 miles each way, about half "freeway" and half "city". The "freeway" portion is up and down a mountain, a change in elevation of approx 3,000 ft on limited access road where the speed limit varies from 45 to 65. The "city" part is the 2 lane road from the highway to my house (approx 3 miles, the last part dirt roads) plus driving across town dealing with signals and stop signs where the speed limit is in the 35-45 mph range. It's not heavy stop and go by any means but frequent stops.
If your average mpg is 22 or less, I'd take the vehicle to the dealer and ask them to check if the "ISC Learn" process has been completed. As stated above, there is a TSB out on this and it DOES (negatively) impact FE if it hasn't been completed.
Yes, I butchered the name, it is the "ISC Learning" bulletin.
Got 26-mpg this last tank, normal driving 60% city, 40% freeway. Hard driving due to busy meeting schedule. Loaded with passengers and 200-lb of gear. Brisk acceleration on streets to speed limit, had to floor it twice on a couple of 50-yr old poorly designed on-ramp. First time I floor the pedal in this car. 70-mph on freeways and spirited passing. Drove 95% on out-of-town freeways that are mostly flat with gentle grade.
We have the 4WD, EPA rated 31/27 or 29 average. It is getting 26 in the Winter, in abnormally (for us) hard driving. Waiting for summer gas to arrive in April. Expect mpg to shoot back up to 28 or better.
Almost 10K miles, 100 miles to go. 25.8 mpg (manual calc) last tank, on-board computer claims 26.4. Air on AUTO all the time, been chilly lately. P&G on streets, keeping up with traffic on freeways (70-75). When passing, it is anywhere from 70 to 85.
Looking forward to summer gas as well, expect mileage to reach 28 or better this year. 10 more days to go. Gas price is up to $2.89 locally.
I bought my HH last August (I live in Tucson). I've been getting anywhere from 26.5-28 mpg in town but on my last tank, I finally got almost 30 mpg. And I was using my air conditioner almost every day (we've been over 90 degrees this week!) This is the base model, 2WD. I've only taken this on the highway three times and then I've averaged about 24 mpg (going about 80 mph on fairly straight, desert highways).
I don't read here often, but I wonder whether others have been getting better mpg? Tucson, where I drive, is fairly flat and most of my drives are under 10 miles round trip. Sorry if this topic has been posted often.
Alfie, 29.8 is spectacular for a midsized SUV in city driving.Our Honda Pilot-(2003 which gets better mpg than the later regeared Pilots) get 13-15 mpg with my wife or son driving it in the city(New Orleans).I can get about 16-17 mpg-via a Scanguage- for short city trips,but I drive with MPG in mind.I would be overjoyed to get mid 20's in the city.Now the Pilot is decent on the HY.We got 24 mpg over the 3000 miles during the Katrina evacuation(we ended up in Flagstaff for a month).The driving was all interstate,and at moderate-maybe 68 mph-speed.The speed was probably less because all the roadwork-maybe 10% of the distance-was 45-55mph.At 55 mph it gets 30+mpg. 24 mpg at 80 mph is very good. I would guess that you would get very,very close to 30 mpg at 65mph.Of course,you would also get run over by a semi;folks drive about 75-85 mph on interstates in AZ.Luck,Charlie
I returned recently from Florida to much colder northern NY (mornings in low 30s - some occasional highs in the 50s and 60s). When we went to FL we had a stuffed overhead storage unit which definitely impacted on mileage - averaged about 21 mpg going down and about 22 - 23 coming back. I had some 29 mpgs in Florida and am now around 24 to 26 in colder temps which I don't think is too bad for this time of year.
I have faithfully entered every tank of gas and mileage with this vehicle since purchase (now over 10,000 miles). I am now just starting to track gasoline brands to see if there is a difference. My recent 26+ mpg was with Sunoco but they were up to $2.99 a gallon for unleaded so went to another station.
Is anyone else tracking brands of gasoline? If so it might be an interesting topic.
I've been amazed by all the people here who have been getting such good fuel economy. I have nearly 15k miles on my 4wd Option #1 HH, and bet I haven't averaged above 22-mpg, nor achieved anything above 25-mpg (traveling down mountain grades).
I have kept track of every tank, and the corresponding mileage for about 14800 of these miles (had nearly 200 miles on it when purchased), but haven't calculated the MPG for every tank yet. Lately, I've been buying Chevron with Techtron (Regular Unleaded) because the dealer recommended it and I've read many other manufacturers recommend it. Thus far, it doesn't seem to have any affect, but it is only about my 5th tank.
Has anyone identified any specific procedures to test the performance? For example, on a flat road surface, no or very light wind, temps in the 60/75-degF range, no air conditioning, after the car has been driven for 30-minutes, and battery capacity is above 75%, accelerate from 0 at the fastest rate possible while keeping the engine OFF. How quickly can people do it? What speed can they attain before the engine kicks on? Is this a procedure that can provide a useful comparison?
I'm not much into the Pulse & Glide stuff, as it 1) doesn't seem very simple when most speed limits around here (tempe, az) are 45-mph, and 2) ridiculous when people say they can get 26/27-mpg without even trying.
I've used many tanks without AC or high-accel starts. Even constant 80-mph driving from Phoenix to LA has resulted in <= 22-mpg.
There needs to exist some sort of test criteria that can insure that each hybrid is behaving appropriately. I am an engineer, and am willing to gather data...but it won't be very useful without others providing input and formulating a good consistent test plan.
Being an engineer you can visualize this idea.. Our jobs as the controllers of these machines is to induce the ICE to shut off as often as possible. The more that you can do this the better will be your mileage. If the ICE is always running such as in cold weather or in constant acceleration then one is only driving a 3.3L ICE Highlander.
I read into your post that most of your driving is on local streets at moderate speeds. Pulse and glide is definitely possible. As a matter of fact this is the optimal situation for the HSD vehicles. An earlier poster also from AZ I think posted his results and said he was getting in the 30 range. I don't think trying to accelerate slowly from a stop is useful. Try accelerating normally up to say 48 mph and then try to 'hold' your spead as long as possible until you slow to 40 mph then do it again.
On trips to LA at 80 mph you will lose 25-30% of your FE simply due to drag. In that case 22 mpg seems very reasonable.
BTW on highway travel cruise control is useless in assisting your FE unless it's to keep you from going a 100 mph in your 'rocket'. As a few posters here have stated the power in this vehicle is enticingly addictive. It's almost a shame to have to drive it sensibly in city/suburban traffic,
Here is another consideration.. a shot in the dark admittedly. All Toyota ICE engines now are VVT-i. Variable Valve Timing - with intelligence.
The engine 'learns' your specific driving characteristices such as throttle input, altitude ( Oxygen content ), terrain, fuel, trip length and a few other variables. With all this it sets the timing of the inputs and exhausts to give the most power and be most efficient in combustion.
Some posters have mentioned going to the dealer and having the CPU controller reset to factory defaults.
I think I would give a shot at involving the dealer as well. I find that my car loves 45 mile speed limits. I also find that it is much easier to get to pulse and glide opportunities than it was before the car got to around 5,000 miles. However, I also look for opportunites to run on electric as much as possible and find that running on electric increases my mpgs more rapidly than pulse and glide (I have to go by what Scangauge is telling me as I have the base model).
It's very difficult to accellerate from a stop and stay in electric. It's better as others have posted to accellerate up to speed but then LET OFF THE GAS! Totally take your foot off the pedal which will encourage the ICE to shut down then gradually reapply pressure so as to maintain speed but not to re-engage the ICE.
Apparently there was also a TSB issued in that some dealers had notcompleted the "ISC Learn" process - you might want to ask about that as from what I've read it does impact your FE.
I live in the Mountains of Colorado, outside of Denver. I gain and lose 3,000 ft of elevation every day. I've got over 20,000 miles on my car already with an overall average of 27mpg. It was up to 30 last summer but the winter temps, winter gas brought it down. I'm seeing it start to creep back up now.
Yes, being an engineer, I can visualize such a thing. In fact, it is one of the reasons I am so frustrated because I can't imagine that I'm your 'typical' driver versus those who attain 26-27 mpg 'without even trying'. I'm also in the Renewable Energy field, so I pay attention to such things much more than your average consumer. I've accelerated up to speed and feathered the throttle as to stay in electric-only mode. I've used CC as often as possible, even on the surface streets. I've talked to the dealer, who tells me to use Chevron fuel.
I'm not sure if you've been around the phoenix area much, but P&G isn't very easy with highly congested streets unless I want people flipping me off every 3-5 minutes.
I drive at least 3/4 mile on my way into my neighborhood once or twice per day in electric-only mode. Without this, I'm not sure where I'd be...
I mention the 80mph travel, because others have claimed to attain much better FE than I on such travel.
You make good statements, but all I want is a way to gather real data for everyone to use.
A fellow semi-retired engineer here . Will leave data stuff to other posters because I have posted my share earlier this year, time to read fresh perspective from other owners.
A lot of debates were due to lack of definition so i will define at least what my family means when we "do it without trying".
Without trying means driving conservatively with saving gas in mind. We do this either driving our V8 Chevy work trucks or an old Honda Civic. Conservative means observing speed limit, no flooring, no jack-rabbit, lots of coasting and really practice smooth-is-fast literally. This technique really is not that much different than P&G.
Difference is that in a gas-engine car, the engine stays on. One's control over fuel usage is limited to speed adjustment and may be NEUTRAL in an automatic or various gears in a stick. So we adjust our style when driving an auto-tran versus a manual-tran.
In a gas-electric, the gas engine will shut off and the car can move in full electric. So we further adapt our conservative style to take advantage of these 2 added capabilities.
For the HH....
We always accelerate briskly to desired speed, then foot off the gas to shut off the ICE. This is automatic whenever it is safe to do so. Then we press gently on the gas to maintain speed. Our local traffic condition often does not allow "Glide", so we often must maintain speed.
While maintaining speed, if the ICE must come on for speed >= ~41-MPH, then so be it. If the speed is slower but terrain is steep and requires the ICE, so be it. Often, on many local streets, terrain is favorable and traffic speed of 30-40 MPH is also favorable, so our normal driving style allows full electric-only run without really doing "extra" or "trying". This is how we do it "without trying". This normally gets us 25-26 MPG easily when it is warmer than 50-F. Again, our local terrain and traffic conditions and weather must cooperate.
On streets that have many traffic lights, as in 6 lights in ~1 mile with 3 in consecutive 1-block distance, there are only 3 choices. When traffic is heavy, we can run full electric from a stop to the next light. This is perfect situation. Too slow to go fast so everyone is crawling and the HH is a gem in such situations.
When traffic is medium, and we are following a car that is doing the jack-rabbit run, we accelerate briskly on our own and do not follow the lead car. We time the acceleration so that at the right point, it is foot off gas to either maintain speed through the next light or ready to coast to a stop.
When we are the lead car or traffic is light, we accelerate briskly to a point then foot off gas to maintain speed through the next light or ready to coast to a stop.
This is basically what my family does "without trying".
The car's power is way too addictive to ignore but with local gas price at $2.91 for 89-octane, I have to drive "normal" (or without trying). If I zip along, mileage easily sinks to 24 mpg. If I really gun it, it sinks further to 22 mpg. If I do my "normal" thing, it hovers easily around 25.5 mpg with glimpses of 26-mpg.
"Normal" to me is keeping up with traffic regardless of posted speed but not over 70-mph on freeways. On streets, it could mean 40-45 mph in 35-45 MPH zones. I keep to speed limit in zones posted for 30-mph and below. There is a reason why the city wants us to slow down in these areas. I do not drive >45-mph on streets, too dangerous. On streets, I do accelerate quickly to speed (more on this later) and maintain speed, coast a lot to stops, no cruise control on streets, cruise on freeways.
On freeways, I like to find an empty space to maintain cruising speed either at 65 ot 70 depending on traffic. I will pass slower cars decisively. Decisive means accelerating quickly to 75 or 80 to pass leaving no chance for the driver to speed up just to keep me from passing. I do this when there is a clear passing lane. If not, I will just chug along and wait patiently behind a slow poke. No big deal, just trading speed for using less gas.
Coasting to stop is automatic whether it is streets or freeways.
Being stupid dangerous is not my way, I prefer an empty road and it is not always about speed, it is about using the power and steering response on all sorts of roads. I am not interested in showing off or racing with other people, it is more about enjoying a nice drive in the HH using its capabilities to the max within safety limits. Just want to be clear about that .
Now to the part about the 4WD HH acceleration that I like best.
There are a lot of stress-out drivers in our area and their antics need not be repeated here. The HH's power can be used judiciously to deal with these drivers.
If I am in the lead on city streets, whenever safe to do so, I accelerate very quickly from a stop to posted speed limit or traffic speed (over or under posted) and then maintain the desired speed. So quick that the HH often pulls away from the trailing car as though that car is sitting still. This makes 3 points immediately: (1) My HH is fast but I am not racing, just getting to traffic speed; (2) I respect everyone's need to get rolling so I am moving, please do not tailgate; (3) for cars who need to change lane, the drivers will do the right thing and change lane behind me safely, no point trying to pass a fast HH. This works 90% of the time. People just leave me along and stay back at a safe distance.
This also works on overpass when the HH reaches halfway to the top of the grade even before the trailing cars make it pass the base of the incline. At that point I just ease off and reach the top of the overpass at posted speed while the others are still struggling to climb.
After I reach my cruising speed, I let the other 10% of drivers decide what to do. If they still want to race each other to pass me, they can go ahead and I will be happy to let them pass if safe to do so. More often than not, my HH will be so far gone, they just do their stupid things behind me.
With all that, the mileage loss is only about 0.2-MPG for climbing an overpass and 0.1-mpg for flat surface. If I accelerate slowly, I will end up losing up to 0.5-mpg on flat surface and 1-mpg on an overpass.
In the 4WD version, the batteries really help with acceleration so slow acceleration is bad for gas mileage. Of course, do not gun it for that will eat up even more gas.
I am rambling, it has been a long flight, hope this helps a bit for those who are wondering how to accelerate without losing too much gas.
kdhspyder: You said: The engine 'learns' your specific driving characteristices such as throttle input, altitude ( Oxygen content ), terrain, fuel, trip length and a few other variables. With all this it sets the timing of the inputs and exhausts to give the most power and be most efficient in combustion.
Some posters have mentioned going to the dealer and having the CPU controller reset to factory defaults.
I'm interested in what might happen if you buy your car in the winter - does it "learn" to pop the ICE on more frequently? I resonate with Fletch, who says his mileage hasn't been great. Mine is improving with warmer weather in Wisconsin, but I wonder if it would be worth resetting the CPU controller now that I'm a better hybrid driver and as the weather has warmed up. Your thoughts??
I live in Florida and I am finding that driving on the interstate I get the best mileage using cruise control - even averaging 75 to 80 mph we are getting 26 to 28 mpg. And I've been experimenting in town with using cruise control at 45 to 50 mph and I get better mileage using cruise on both flat and slightly hilly roads. I've been trying all the different methods - pulse and glide, pulse and feather etc. and either I have a lead foot (entirely possible) or I simply am not doing those correctly. My mileage always goes up when I switch to cruise control in-town when I'm not in heavy traffic. in March we drove 83 miles each way on I-10 with a full car (5 adults, 2 kids) and totally flat Florida interstate. Averaging about 80 mph we got 26 mpg.
This past weekend I got my first ride in a Prius in southern Ohio. The owner doesn't do any kind of special driving - she basically drives it like a regular car and says she is averaging 50 mpg. I asked her if she used pulse and glide and she had no idea what I was talking about. She just drives.
I have always wondered, even with our Prius (~42 MPG, 1841 gallons), that if one could disconnect the hybrid batteries it wouldn't get better gas highway cruise control (relatively contant speed) fuel mileage.
Seattle to Portland, ~140 miles, it seems to discharge and then recharge the hybrid batteries about 5 times, via the ICE of course.
It is easy to get mileage of around 22 mpg if you have to drive like I do on some days which is lots of low hills and constant stopping and starting. I may have 5 or 6 places to go and all within a 20 mile round trip radius. I am driving one mile and turning off the vehicle, driving two miles and again turning off the vehicle and so on. The constant turning on and off of the engine really does impact mileage. I don't have a regular commute (I work at home) which would be a different situation. I have found that using cruise control for certain trips (it's a 3 lane road with rolling hills to Target and about 5 miles each way) really improves my mileage if I'm only going to one destination. It would be great if I could leave the keys in and the vehicle "on" if I was just running into dry cleaners or shoe repair, for example, but we don't live in the kind of world that makes it safe to do that.
I'm curious about your "toting around a battery" and what you meant by that?
I've now had my HH for one year and 8,000 miles and while I've never gotten the kind of mileage mentioned by some folks here (I do get around 28 on the highway) I'm still really happy with my vehicle and would buy it again.
You said "I'm curious about your "toting around a battery" and what you meant by that? "
Well, the delta between the gas highlander and hybrid highlander is about 400 pounds, and that extra weight is primarily due to the battery. The whole point of the hybrid system, at least as far as my perspective goes, is to use the battery as much as possible as a way of extending the gas mileage. I'm actually quite shocked that i can get up to 35mph with my highlander before the engine kicks in, so when I'm driving in a residential area, I can basically travel from stop sign to stop sign (I live in an area witha lot of schools, seems like there are stops signs every few blocks) and never engage the engine.
Of course, if there is some one behind you and you are accelerating so as to stay all electric you are likely to solicit their use of their battery, namely their horn!
But the bottom line is Hybrids have huge batteries, and efficiently managing their use is really the key to getting good mileage.
I'm surprised about all this "hills kill mileage" stuff... seems to me that every hill you go up returns energy using the regnerative braking going down, and I drove my HH in San Francisco up and down some of the biggest hills in the City and got an average of 30.5 for the day... anyone care to elaborate? Admittedly, I haven't done any big time mountain driving yet, but I'm not seeing a huge drop off, but then again, in SF you're not trying to do 45mph going up a hill unless you're filming the sequel to Bullitt...
Hilly terrain is challenging especially when there are many turns and many shallower dips and posted speed is 40 or higher. The turns, depending on angles, require constant speed adjustment, slowing down and speeding up. The uphill run requires gas assist and the shallower downhill also often needs gas assist because they are not steep and long enough to coast at posted speed. With cars trailing, there is little chance of a full-electric or a constant speed ride. This kind of environment will impact the MPG of any car.
SF is actually different than the curvy hills in CONN. SF streets can be steep but are mostly straight. Often, one climbs as much as one descends so the MPG gain and loss can even out somewhat. About the only curvy drive is the famous Lombard st. by Hyde.
Take a trip to the Pinnacles National Monument from the 101-side outside Gilroy and you will come through a stretch of curvy up and down at moderately high speed before the entrance. That is the stretch that will test the gas mileage and handling of the HH.
Other fun drives to really enjoy the handling of the HH are HWY 1 South to Santa Cruz, HWY 1 North through Pt. Reyes to the Oyster farms . Hwy 152 from Gilroy to/from Santa Cruz. Hwy 129 from 101-side to/from Watsonville. All curvy, all moderately high speed, all with constant changing elevation. Enjoy (them safely)!
25.5 on fourth tank traveling to and from Finger Lakes area, New York from around Phila suburb. Mostly highway driving but a lot of hills though. Interstate speed avg 75mph, AC on all the way. Not to bad for around 1200 miles on vehicle. I'm enjoying it.
I just purchased a Highlander Hybrid 4WD-i last week and the first tank ended up at a calculated 26.9 MPG (370 miles, 13.75 gal). That was with 60% highway, 40% city driving and substantial use of the AC as it was 90+. The average MPG as indicated on the computer agreed closely with that number.
So far I'm very happy with my choice of the Highlander Hybrid.
Apologies the long post, but I’m experiencing several problems with my HH and am curious if anyone else has seen the same issues. I’ve been driving an HH for 2.5 months. It got 30+ mpg off the lot, but soon began to drop. After it fell under 20 mpg, I took it in for service. When I picked it up, Technician #1 told me he had driven it with his manager and that they got 24.5 mpg, showing me the display as proof. He said they reset the “computer”, which I took to mean clearing the memory so it would begin learning again. I’m still getting terrible mpg – I now believe they took the easy way out and just reset the fuel economy counter.
I went back to the same dealer yesterday and spoke with someone more knowledgeable of the hybrid system. I detailed the following problems to him: • Extremely low gas mileage. Over the past three tanks of gas, I’ve gotten 18.7, 19.4, and 20.3, respectively. These are my calculations based on miles driven and gallons pumped, but closely match what the onboard computer tells me. (Tech #2’s response was that the HH is not built for fuel economy, but for zero emissions. (Tech #1’s explanation was “it’s built for performance.”) Tech #2 went on to tell me that 10% ethanol now in use lowers fuel economy, and that my city’s (Houston) gas is the lowest quality anyway because the good stuff is sent to other states. Oh, and I shouldn’t expect to get anywhere near what was on the sticker anyway (not that seriously believed I’d hit the EPA averages). Seems there are plenty of excuses.) • Car is so sensitive to weight that I get poor gas mileage just by filling up. I’ll see 24 mpg if I reset the MPG meter with less than a quarter tank, but get 18-20 with a full tank and no one but me in the car. Forget it if there are passengers. • ICE engages between 5 and 10 mph from full stop. (Tech #2 explains that no one, not even Toyota, can predict when the ICE will engage.) • When in motion, the kW meter will show energy being used from the battery but the LCD display doesn’t show the hybrid drive as activated. Which one is right? • Battery level display never shows fully-charged battery. It always stops two levels below what’s shown in the manual. (Tech #2 says the battery meter will never show fully charged.) • Under normal driving, battery can begin at highest level of charge displayed, fall to lowest level, and recharge completely in <5 minutes. (Tech #2 says rapid discharge/recharge is perfectly normal.) • When fully stopped, display shows discharging of electric motor from forward motion
I don’t drive aggressively. I make smooth starts and stops, and pay close attention to the instant mpg, actively trying to minimize use of the ICE. What I come back to is that I was getting over 30 mpg, and now I’m not – not even close. Tech #2 polled the primary onboard computer and showed me that it’s recorded no errors or even warning events. The dealership’s response so far is that the vehicle is performing within expected norms, the manual depicts system displays that will never occur, and the displays are not meant to be accurate representations of what’s happening under the hood. As a first time Toyota owner, I’m left thinking either the company lies about its products, or that I have a critical problem with my vehicle, perhaps even a lemon. I’m utterly frustrated that no one will even admit that I’m having a problem. This feels like a Twilight Zone episode.
Side Note – I’ve also seen the following:
• Under low-light conditions when lights are set to “auto”, the exterior lights engage after turning key in ignition, but remain lit if switch is immediately turned off. They only turn off if the driver’s door is opened, and will remain on indefinitely if I turn on the car from the passenger side to eject a CD, for instance. The tech says this is perfectly normal, and that he frequently sees cars with discharged batteries because of this. Sounds like a serious design flaw.
• Car no longer emits sound when doors are locked, engaging alarm. Tech confirmed the piezo device is bad and needs to be replaced. Could this be an indication of some overall electrical problem with the car?
Long post. I'll do my best to answer as much as I can based on my experiences. First of all, please don't be frustrated. This is a good vehicle. While it may never get the EPA mileage, it does very well in comparison to other 4wd's with 270hp. I think the EPA test includes 5 minutes of idling as part of the equation for city, which completely skews the test results. I highly doubt that your vehicle is a lemon. I've recently gotten 16 in the city over 100 miles as well as 32 on the highway over the same distance. The Kw meter measures total output from the hybrid (gas and electric). The synergy drive is designed to optimize the use of both motors. It is completely normal to have the ICE come on at 5mph. As for the battery, it's designed to have quick cycles. The charge fluctuates around the middle of total charge to promote battery life. I read somewhere that it won't charge above 80% or discharge below 20% , which is actually the total range displayed on the screen 20-80. I have noticed that the FE is better when the charge is at the higher range. I once got close to 36mpg over 10 city miles after being on the highway for 45 min. My current mpg is between 16-19. Why? About 97% of my time in the car is spent on trips 2mi or less and it has been very hot. The A/C is pure electric and uses the hybrid battery. City driving also uses the battery more than highway driving. The hybrid battery is charged by the ICE. The ICE charges the battery most efficiently when on the highway, which in my case doesn't happen often. As a result, I get poor FE . One thing which should not happen is to have power going from the battery to the wheels when fully stopped. I too have noticed this on mine. I found that if you press the pedal a little further, it cuts the power off. As for electrical issues, with the cars of today, your dash would be lit up like a christmas tree. Toyota has been making good hybrids for a long time. They will continue to improve them. For now I like mine.
Thinking about getting a HH. What was your experience with cruise control going thru the hills? Did it remain steady or shift up to maintain speed? I saw your post on what you bought, so I assume it is a 4x2 Limited based on MSRP. If I am wrong, let me know. Interesting to know that you can get 5k off MSRP.
On my 2nd tank I calculated 28.6 mpg (380 miles, 13.26 gal), 25% freeway, 75% city driving. I used the AC about one third of the time.
I'm not a hypermiler by any means. I just drive normally and move along at the same speed or slightly faster than the rest of the traffic. I've really not adjusted my driving habits specifically for driving the hybrid, except to try and keep the KW meter below 75 when accelerating.
If I might comment regarding the previous post asking about cruise control in hilly environments - the Highlander Hybrid has a CVT transmission, so there is no shifting. When the cruise control is engaged and you reach a hill, the KW meter goes up as the engine makes more power, and you might hear the engine get a little louder, but with 268hp on tap, you do not have any issues maintaining speed on hills with the cruise control.
I realize the numbers seem a little extreme but that is what I get. (s&g = stop & go, nt = no traffic) Depending on how much TIME I spend on city or highway determines my overall mpg. It's been very hot lately in NYC and I get on the highway maybe once a week for 20 miles or less, so you know what my average per tank has been. In comparison to my last SUV, which was similar in power and size, I am still getting about twice the MPG. Overall I am very happy with this vehicle's performance.
... but does the HH keep track of MPG on the car's computer? How can I access that? The manual was no help and I can't seem to find an average MPG over a tank of gas or a number of miles -- all I see is that constantly-shifting graph of what mileage I am getting. Please help!
Gweiswas, If you have the NAV screen, the MPG number it shows at the end of a tank is the average over the life of the tank. This assumes you reset the number when the tank was filled. If you do not have the NAV screen, you can compute MPG by hand or use a ScanGauge. Check out their link below. Several owners have reported successful installation of the gauge.
Took a trip down to Disneyland from San Jose. Round trip mileage was 690 miles with 675 miles on various freeways. Got 26.5-MPG by hand calculation round trip. On freeways, speed was 85% 70-mph, 10% 60-65 mph, a few 75-mph for passing. Once on HWY 5, we set it to cruise on 70 and that was that. On city streets, we were so fully-charged that it was 90% on full-electric.
Very nice to be able to make it to Anaheim on a hair over 3/4 tank of gas in a car with such nice performance. Went up and down the mountains of 152 and Grapevine like flatland. After a whole year, we are still amazed by the ease with which it takes to steep grade and then still returns respectable gas mileage.
For this same drive, our Sienna van could do no better than 21+ mpg and our truck used to yield a dismal 17+ mpg.
First and foremost, Toyota designed the Highlander with performance in mind. Which means it isn't ever going to come close to the Prius, or even the Camry. It does get significantly better MPG, and of course spews less harmful emissions than other SUV's in that horsepower range, which are mainly much larger SUV's.
I have noticed that more than a few are unhappy with their MPG, and I have to chalk that up to poor research before buying the car. If a person had in mind fantastic MPG, even using the government's figures, they should never have chosen the HH. If they wanted to get significantly better MPG than other SUV's, without sacrificing power and performance, it makes good sense to buy it.
I assume many HH drivers will improve their mileage, like others who have posted in these forums, by paying attention to the displays and moderating the way they drive, especially the way they start at traffic lights, etc.
Just like I was taught in Driver's Ed....like there is a raw egg under the gas pedal...slow and steady, especially when the next light is only one block away, and you'll likely have to stop there as well.
And, that manner of starting up has big mileage gains no matter what type of vehicle you are driving, btw.
Comments
mmreid
Our Sienna pings when we use medium so we have had to us premium.
Most of the miles were from my ~14 mile commute each way to work, mostly highway, with small hills (well, for San Antonio anyway). Lots of p&g. Coasting down the hills really racks up the regen.
But "R" is definately for "really fast," right?
"2" is for "too fast."
And everyone, from grade school, knows what "D" is for.
For freeway, we reset the on-board MPG as we enter the on-ramp and take down the MPG number after coming to a stop at end of off-ramp.
For streets, we reset before moving from our house and take the measurement upon returning and stopping.
In all cases, we used CRUISE whenever possible, almost 99% of the time. Trips were taken between 1PM and 4PM on weekdays. No traffic jam, no rain, no CHP
The numbers below are all averages over multiple trips. I did not round up or down, simply dropped the floating point.
(1) HWY 50-miles round trip (CA, HWY101, San Martin Alum Rock, San Jose)
75-MPH got 21-mpg. 90% at 75, the rest lower. 2 trips at this speed.
70-MPH got 23-mpg. 90% at 70, the rest lower. 3 trips at this speed.
65-MPH got 26-mpg. 90% at 65, the rest lower. 6 trips at this speed.
(2) Same 2 points of travel as above but used country (Monterey HWY) highway wih 55-MPH limit. Distance increased a bit to 58 miles roundtrip.
We did this 5 times. For each round trip, we drove 55-MPH for a total of 28 miles rountrip on Monterey HWY. and 65-MPH for 30 miles roundtrip on HWY 101.
Average is 28 MPG.
(3) City Streets (San Martin, Gilroy area)
15 miles round trip. Multiple stops to drop off and pick up WITHOUT engine off.
Without Hypermiling, only normal P&G : 30 MPG. We did this 4 times.
With Hypermiling : 35 MPG. We did this 3 times.
I know this is only 1 car but still hope it satisfies the couple of posters wondering about HWY vs City mileage. The HH is achieving EPA numbers, a nice surprise.
We also found out why our winter mileage has suffered. The A/C was left ON whenever we run the air and we run it a lot. In our area, winter can still get sunny warm and the A/C will come on quietly when we use AUTO mode. This is killing our mileage. Turning A/C off has put us back into the 27-28 mpg range.
I had a couple of observations/ questions:
1) were these all computer calculations? would you expect actual mileage to be adjusted down slightly?
2) It never ceases to amaze me how mileage affects FE. In your country highway trip, you went half the distance at 65 mph and the other half at 55mph. if you extrapolate based on your previous 65 mph data, would you suspect you would get 30 mpg if you did a straight 55mph?
3) Does the electric motor kick on and off during highway driving? I always thought toyota hybrids got better mileage on city (as you've shown) because the electic motor makes up for the car's inefficiency during stop and go traffic. yet the highway mileage is better than the V6 highlander where I always assumed the electric motor didn't increase effiency.
1) were these all computer calculations? would you expect actual mileage to be adjusted down slightly?
Yes they are computer numbers. I will adjust all numbers down 3.5%.
This is based on what we see at end of tank. The on-board number is on average, 3.5% higher/better than our hand calculated MPG number at end of a tank.
"2)...if you extrapolate based on your previous 65 mph data, would you suspect you would get 30 mpg if you did a straight 55mph?
Yes but only if terrain cooperates. The stretch of HWY 101 we drove has 1 small (100-ft?) and 2 larger up slope (500-ft+?). I was actually surprised it came out at 26-mpg at 65-MPH, most likely the down slope helped because the ICE shut off on the way down.
The country highway is fairly flat, and when we drove only that stretch, the mileage actually came out at 31-mpg at 55-MPH. I did not post this because I did it only once and it was not a "realistic" or "useful" trip that we would take to go places. We just drove to the end and turned around
3) Does the electric motor kick on and off during highway driving?
Yes but only when CRUISE is ON. When we drive with CRUISE OFF, the electric motor comes on much less often if at all unless we accelerate.
We now drive everywhere, city and freeway, with CRUISE ON and we no longer sweat the ICE running. Whenever the electric motor kicks in, the FE goes up so having the ICE running or not running is no longer a big concern.
We also let the CRUISE resume to a higher speed because it knows to accelerate smoothly returning around 10+ MPG during acceleration. My heavier foot always accelerate harder, netting no better than 5-6 MPG during acceleration.
To clarify, we did not use hypermiling (except where noted) for this experiment. Hypermiling means finding flat roads with few stops, few cars and no overpasses. It also means driving significantly slower that posted speed, often down to 30-35 MPH.
We did this experiment using our normally conservative style with modified P&G. No hard acceleration, lots of proactive coasting when in traffic.
So by driving with some common sense care, and without needing to hypermile, the HH is indeed capable of matching EPA MPG numbers when terrain cooperates. At least here in our area
That's interesting, my FE started going down as soon as I started using the heater in the morning. What I noticed was that when I didn't use the heater, my car would run on battery most of the way through our neighborhood. But when I used the heater, the ICE was on the whole way. I think this is because the HH wants to heat up the engine so that it can generate the heat for the heater. That overrides using the battery. I had been getting around 28 - 29 MPG each fillup (manualy calculated). With the heater on in the morning, it's dropping down to around 26.
The "freeway" portion is up and down a mountain, a change in elevation of approx 3,000 ft on limited access road where the speed limit varies from 45 to 65. The "city" part is the 2 lane road from the highway to my house (approx 3 miles, the last part dirt roads) plus driving across town dealing with signals and stop signs where the speed limit is in the 35-45 mph range. It's not heavy stop and go by any means but frequent stops.
If your average mpg is 22 or less, I'd take the vehicle to the dealer and ask them to check if the "ISC Learn" process has been completed. As stated above, there is a TSB out on this and it DOES (negatively) impact FE if it hasn't been completed.
Got 26-mpg this last tank, normal driving 60% city, 40% freeway. Hard driving due to busy meeting schedule. Loaded with passengers and 200-lb of gear. Brisk acceleration on streets to speed limit, had to floor it twice on a couple of 50-yr old poorly designed on-ramp. First time I floor the pedal in this car. 70-mph on freeways and spirited passing. Drove 95% on out-of-town freeways that are mostly flat with gentle grade.
We have the 4WD, EPA rated 31/27 or 29 average. It is getting 26 in the Winter, in abnormally (for us) hard driving. Waiting for summer gas to arrive in April. Expect mpg to shoot back up to 28 or better.
25.8 mpg (manual calc) last tank, on-board computer claims 26.4. Air on AUTO all the time, been chilly lately. P&G on streets, keeping up with traffic on freeways (70-75). When passing, it is anywhere from 70 to 85.
Looking forward to summer gas as well, expect mileage to reach 28 or better this year. 10 more days to go. Gas price is up to $2.89 locally.
I don't read here often, but I wonder whether others have been getting better mpg? Tucson, where I drive, is fairly flat and most of my drives are under 10 miles round trip. Sorry if this topic has been posted often.
Alfie
I have faithfully entered every tank of gas and mileage with this vehicle since purchase (now over 10,000 miles). I am now just starting to track gasoline brands to see if there is a difference. My recent 26+ mpg was with Sunoco but they were up to $2.99 a gallon for unleaded so went to another station.
Is anyone else tracking brands of gasoline? If so it might be an interesting topic.
I have kept track of every tank, and the corresponding mileage for about 14800 of these miles (had nearly 200 miles on it when purchased), but haven't calculated the MPG for every tank yet. Lately, I've been buying Chevron with Techtron (Regular Unleaded) because the dealer recommended it and I've read many other manufacturers recommend it. Thus far, it doesn't seem to have any affect, but it is only about my 5th tank.
Has anyone identified any specific procedures to test the performance? For example, on a flat road surface, no or very light wind, temps in the 60/75-degF range, no air conditioning, after the car has been driven for 30-minutes, and battery capacity is above 75%, accelerate from 0 at the fastest rate possible while keeping the engine OFF. How quickly can people do it? What speed can they attain before the engine kicks on? Is this a procedure that can provide a useful comparison?
I'm not much into the Pulse & Glide stuff, as it 1) doesn't seem very simple when most speed limits around here (tempe, az) are 45-mph, and 2) ridiculous when people say they can get 26/27-mpg without even trying.
I've used many tanks without AC or high-accel starts. Even constant 80-mph driving from Phoenix to LA has resulted in <= 22-mpg.
There needs to exist some sort of test criteria that can insure that each hybrid is behaving appropriately. I am an engineer, and am willing to gather data...but it won't be very useful without others providing input and formulating a good consistent test plan.
Thoughts anyone?
Fletch
I read into your post that most of your driving is on local streets at moderate speeds. Pulse and glide is definitely possible. As a matter of fact this is the optimal situation for the HSD vehicles. An earlier poster also from AZ I think posted his results and said he was getting in the 30 range. I don't think trying to accelerate slowly from a stop is useful. Try accelerating normally up to say 48 mph and then try to 'hold' your spead as long as possible until you slow to 40 mph then do it again.
On trips to LA at 80 mph you will lose 25-30% of your FE simply due to drag. In that case 22 mpg seems very reasonable.
BTW on highway travel cruise control is useless in assisting your FE unless it's to keep you from going a 100 mph in your 'rocket'. As a few posters here have stated the power in this vehicle is enticingly addictive. It's almost a shame to have to drive it sensibly in city/suburban traffic,
The engine 'learns' your specific driving characteristices such as throttle input, altitude ( Oxygen content ), terrain, fuel, trip length and a few other variables. With all this it sets the timing of the inputs and exhausts to give the most power and be most efficient in combustion.
Some posters have mentioned going to the dealer and having the CPU controller reset to factory defaults.
Again it's a wild swing with this.
Apparently there was also a TSB issued in that some dealers had notcompleted the "ISC Learn" process - you might want to ask about that as from what I've read it does impact your FE.
I live in the Mountains of Colorado, outside of Denver. I gain and lose 3,000 ft of elevation every day. I've got over 20,000 miles on my car already with an overall average of 27mpg. It was up to 30 last summer but the winter temps, winter gas brought it down. I'm seeing it start to creep back up now.
I'm not sure if you've been around the phoenix area much, but P&G isn't very easy with highly congested streets unless I want people flipping me off every 3-5 minutes.
I drive at least 3/4 mile on my way into my neighborhood once or twice per day in electric-only mode. Without this, I'm not sure where I'd be...
I mention the 80mph travel, because others have claimed to attain much better FE than I on such travel.
You make good statements, but all I want is a way to gather real data for everyone to use.
A fellow semi-retired engineer here
A lot of debates were due to lack of definition so i will define at least what my family means when we "do it without trying".
Without trying means driving conservatively with saving gas in mind. We do this either driving our V8 Chevy work trucks or an old Honda Civic. Conservative means observing speed limit, no flooring, no jack-rabbit, lots of coasting and really practice smooth-is-fast literally. This technique really is not that much different than P&G.
Difference is that in a gas-engine car, the engine stays on. One's control over fuel usage is limited to speed adjustment and may be NEUTRAL in an automatic or various gears in a stick. So we adjust our style when driving an auto-tran versus a manual-tran.
In a gas-electric, the gas engine will shut off and the car can move in full electric. So we further adapt our conservative style to take advantage of these 2 added capabilities.
For the HH....
We always accelerate briskly to desired speed, then foot off the gas to shut off the ICE. This is automatic whenever it is safe to do so. Then we press gently on the gas to maintain speed. Our local traffic condition often does not allow "Glide", so we often must maintain speed.
While maintaining speed, if the ICE must come on for speed >= ~41-MPH, then so be it. If the speed is slower but terrain is steep and requires the ICE, so be it. Often, on many local streets, terrain is favorable and traffic speed of 30-40 MPH is also favorable, so our normal driving style allows full electric-only run without really doing "extra" or "trying". This is how we do it "without trying". This normally gets us 25-26 MPG easily when it is warmer than 50-F. Again, our local terrain and traffic conditions and weather must cooperate.
On streets that have many traffic lights, as in 6 lights in ~1 mile with 3 in consecutive 1-block distance, there are only 3 choices. When traffic is heavy, we can run full electric from a stop to the next light. This is perfect situation. Too slow to go fast so everyone is crawling and the HH is a gem in such situations.
When traffic is medium, and we are following a car that is doing the jack-rabbit run, we accelerate briskly on our own and do not follow the lead car. We time the acceleration so that at the right point, it is foot off gas to either maintain speed through the next light or ready to coast to a stop.
When we are the lead car or traffic is light, we accelerate briskly to a point then foot off gas to maintain speed through the next light or ready to coast to a stop.
This is basically what my family does "without trying".
When we do try, then we really go nuts
"Normal" to me is keeping up with traffic regardless of posted speed but not over 70-mph on freeways. On streets, it could mean 40-45 mph in 35-45 MPH zones. I keep to speed limit in zones posted for 30-mph and below. There is a reason why the city wants us to slow down in these areas. I do not drive >45-mph on streets, too dangerous. On streets, I do accelerate quickly to speed (more on this later) and maintain speed, coast a lot to stops, no cruise control on streets, cruise on freeways.
On freeways, I like to find an empty space to maintain cruising speed either at 65 ot 70 depending on traffic. I will pass slower cars decisively. Decisive means accelerating quickly to 75 or 80 to pass leaving no chance for the driver to speed up just to keep me from passing. I do this when there is a clear passing lane. If not, I will just chug along and wait patiently behind a slow poke. No big deal, just trading speed for using less gas.
Coasting to stop is automatic whether it is streets or freeways.
Being stupid dangerous is not my way, I prefer an empty road and it is not always about speed, it is about using the power and steering response on all sorts of roads. I am not interested in showing off or racing with other people, it is more about enjoying a nice drive in the HH using its capabilities to the max within safety limits. Just want to be clear about that
Now to the part about the 4WD HH acceleration that I like best.
There are a lot of stress-out drivers in our area and their antics need not be repeated here. The HH's power can be used judiciously to deal with these drivers.
If I am in the lead on city streets, whenever safe to do so, I accelerate very quickly from a stop to posted speed limit or traffic speed (over or under posted) and then maintain the desired speed. So quick that the HH often pulls away from the trailing car as though that car is sitting still. This makes 3 points immediately: (1) My HH is fast but I am not racing, just getting to traffic speed; (2) I respect everyone's need to get rolling so I am moving, please do not tailgate; (3) for cars who need to change lane, the drivers will do the right thing and change lane behind me safely, no point trying to pass a fast HH. This works 90% of the time. People just leave me along and stay back at a safe distance.
This also works on overpass when the HH reaches halfway to the top of the grade even before the trailing cars make it pass the base of the incline. At that point I just ease off and reach the top of the overpass at posted speed while the others are still struggling to climb.
After I reach my cruising speed, I let the other 10% of drivers decide what to do. If they still want to race each other to pass me, they can go ahead and I will be happy to let them pass if safe to do so. More often than not, my HH will be so far gone, they just do their stupid things behind me.
With all that, the mileage loss is only about 0.2-MPG for climbing an overpass and 0.1-mpg for flat surface. If I accelerate slowly, I will end up losing up to 0.5-mpg on flat surface and 1-mpg on an overpass.
In the 4WD version, the batteries really help with acceleration so slow acceleration is bad for gas mileage. Of course, do not gun it for that will eat up even more gas.
I am rambling, it has been a long flight, hope this helps a bit for those who are wondering how to accelerate without losing too much gas.
You said:
The engine 'learns' your specific driving characteristices such as throttle input, altitude ( Oxygen content ), terrain, fuel, trip length and a few other variables. With all this it sets the timing of the inputs and exhausts to give the most power and be most efficient in combustion.
Some posters have mentioned going to the dealer and having the CPU controller reset to factory defaults.
I'm interested in what might happen if you buy your car in the winter - does it "learn" to pop the ICE on more frequently? I resonate with Fletch, who says his mileage hasn't been great. Mine is improving with warmer weather in Wisconsin, but I wonder if it would be worth resetting the CPU controller now that I'm a better hybrid driver and as the weather has warmed up. Your thoughts??
This past weekend I got my first ride in a Prius in southern Ohio. The owner doesn't do any kind of special driving - she basically drives it like a regular car and says she is averaging 50 mpg. I asked her if she used pulse and glide and she had no idea what I was talking about. She just drives.
mmreid
Seattle to Portland, ~140 miles, it seems to discharge and then recharge the hybrid batteries about 5 times, via the ICE of course.
I'm curious about your "toting around a battery" and what you meant by that?
I've now had my HH for one year and 8,000 miles and while I've never gotten the kind of mileage mentioned by some folks here (I do get around 28 on the highway) I'm still really happy with my vehicle and would buy it again.
Well, the delta between the gas highlander and hybrid highlander is about 400 pounds, and that extra weight is primarily due to the battery. The whole point of the hybrid system, at least as far as my perspective goes, is to use the battery as much as possible as a way of extending the gas mileage. I'm actually quite shocked that i can get up to 35mph with my highlander before the engine kicks in, so when I'm driving in a residential area, I can basically travel from stop sign to stop sign (I live in an area witha lot of schools, seems like there are stops signs every few blocks) and never engage the engine.
Of course, if there is some one behind you and you are accelerating so as to stay all electric you are likely to solicit their use of their battery, namely their horn!
But the bottom line is Hybrids have huge batteries, and efficiently managing their use is really the key to getting good mileage.
I'm surprised about all this "hills kill mileage" stuff... seems to me that every hill you go up returns energy using the regnerative braking going down, and I drove my HH in San Francisco up and down some of the biggest hills in the City and got an average of 30.5 for the day... anyone care to elaborate? Admittedly, I haven't done any big time mountain driving yet, but I'm not seeing a huge drop off, but then again, in SF you're not trying to do 45mph going up a hill unless you're filming the sequel to Bullitt...
SF is actually different than the curvy hills in CONN. SF streets can be steep but are mostly straight. Often, one climbs as much as one descends so the MPG gain and loss can even out somewhat. About the only curvy drive is the famous Lombard st. by Hyde.
Take a trip to the Pinnacles National Monument from the 101-side outside Gilroy and you will come through a stretch of curvy up and down at moderately high speed before the entrance. That is the stretch that will test the gas mileage and handling of the HH.
Other fun drives to really enjoy the handling of the HH are HWY 1 South to Santa Cruz, HWY 1 North through Pt. Reyes to the Oyster farms
Mostly highway driving but a lot of hills though. Interstate speed avg 75mph, AC on all the way. Not to bad for around 1200 miles on vehicle.
I'm enjoying it.
So far I'm very happy with my choice of the Highlander Hybrid.
I went back to the same dealer yesterday and spoke with someone more knowledgeable of the hybrid system. I detailed the following problems to him:
• Extremely low gas mileage. Over the past three tanks of gas, I’ve gotten 18.7, 19.4, and 20.3, respectively. These are my calculations based on miles driven and gallons pumped, but closely match what the onboard computer tells me. (Tech #2’s response was that the HH is not built for fuel economy, but for zero emissions. (Tech #1’s explanation was “it’s built for performance.”) Tech #2 went on to tell me that 10% ethanol now in use lowers fuel economy, and that my city’s (Houston) gas is the lowest quality anyway because the good stuff is sent to other states. Oh, and I shouldn’t expect to get anywhere near what was on the sticker anyway (not that seriously believed I’d hit the EPA averages). Seems there are plenty of excuses.)
• Car is so sensitive to weight that I get poor gas mileage just by filling up. I’ll see 24 mpg if I reset the MPG meter with less than a quarter tank, but get 18-20 with a full tank and no one but me in the car. Forget it if there are passengers.
• ICE engages between 5 and 10 mph from full stop. (Tech #2 explains that no one, not even Toyota, can predict when the ICE will engage.)
• When in motion, the kW meter will show energy being used from the battery but the LCD display doesn’t show the hybrid drive as activated. Which one is right?
• Battery level display never shows fully-charged battery. It always stops two levels below what’s shown in the manual. (Tech #2 says the battery meter will never show fully charged.)
• Under normal driving, battery can begin at highest level of charge displayed, fall to lowest level, and recharge completely in <5 minutes. (Tech #2 says rapid discharge/recharge is perfectly normal.)
• When fully stopped, display shows discharging of electric motor from forward motion
I don’t drive aggressively. I make smooth starts and stops, and pay close attention to the instant mpg, actively trying to minimize use of the ICE. What I come back to is that I was getting over 30 mpg, and now I’m not – not even close. Tech #2 polled the primary onboard computer and showed me that it’s recorded no errors or even warning events. The dealership’s response so far is that the vehicle is performing within expected norms, the manual depicts system displays that will never occur, and the displays are not meant to be accurate representations of what’s happening under the hood. As a first time Toyota owner, I’m left thinking either the company lies about its products, or that I have a critical problem with my vehicle, perhaps even a lemon. I’m utterly frustrated that no one will even admit that I’m having a problem. This feels like a Twilight Zone episode.
Side Note – I’ve also seen the following:
• Under low-light conditions when lights are set to “auto”, the exterior lights engage after turning key in ignition, but remain lit if switch is immediately turned off. They only turn off if the driver’s door is opened, and will remain on indefinitely if I turn on the car from the passenger side to eject a CD, for instance. The tech says this is perfectly normal, and that he frequently sees cars with discharged batteries because of this. Sounds like a serious design flaw.
• Car no longer emits sound when doors are locked, engaging alarm. Tech confirmed the piezo device is bad and needs to be replaced. Could this be an indication of some overall electrical problem with the car?
First of all, please don't be frustrated. This is a good vehicle. While it may never get the EPA mileage, it does very well in comparison to other 4wd's with 270hp. I think the EPA test includes 5 minutes of idling as part of the equation for city, which completely skews the test results.
I highly doubt that your vehicle is a lemon. I've recently gotten 16 in the city over 100 miles as well as 32 on the highway over the same distance.
The Kw meter measures total output from the hybrid (gas and electric). The synergy drive is designed to optimize the use of both motors. It is completely normal to have the ICE come on at 5mph. As for the battery, it's designed to have quick cycles. The charge fluctuates around the middle of total charge to promote battery life. I read somewhere that it won't charge above 80% or discharge below 20% , which is actually the total range displayed on the screen 20-80. I have noticed that the FE is better when the charge is at the higher range. I once got close to 36mpg over 10 city miles after being on the highway for 45 min. My current mpg is between 16-19. Why? About 97% of my time in the car is spent on trips 2mi or less and it has been very hot. The A/C is pure electric and uses the hybrid battery. City driving also uses the battery more than highway driving. The hybrid battery is charged by the ICE. The ICE charges the battery most efficiently when on the highway, which in my case doesn't happen often. As a result, I get poor FE . One thing which should not happen is to have power going from the battery to the wheels when fully stopped. I too have noticed this on mine. I found that if you press the pedal a little further, it cuts the power off. As for electrical issues, with the cars of today, your dash would be lit up like a christmas tree. Toyota has been making good hybrids for a long time. They will continue to improve them. For now I like mine.
I saw your post on what you bought, so I assume it is a 4x2 Limited based on MSRP. If I am wrong, let me know. Interesting to know that you can get 5k off MSRP.
I'm not a hypermiler by any means. I just drive normally and move along at the same speed or slightly faster than the rest of the traffic. I've really not adjusted my driving habits specifically for driving the hybrid, except to try and keep the KW meter below 75 when accelerating.
If I might comment regarding the previous post asking about cruise control in hilly environments - the Highlander Hybrid has a CVT transmission, so there is no shifting. When the cruise control is engaged and you reach a hill, the KW meter goes up as the engine makes more power, and you might hear the engine get a little louder, but with 268hp on tap, you do not have any issues maintaining speed on hills with the cruise control.
Vehicle I purchased was an ALL Wheel highlander Hybrid (4x4)with the package which includes the sunroof, rear spoiler etc.
If you have the NAV screen, the MPG number it shows at the end of a tank is the average over the life of the tank. This assumes you reset the number when the tank was filled. If you do not have the NAV screen, you can compute MPG by hand or use a ScanGauge. Check out their link below. Several owners have reported successful installation of the gauge.
http://www.scangauge.com/
We trust hand-computation over the on-board MPG numbers. The on-board MPG is always about 0.5-1 MPG better than our hand computed number.
Very nice to be able to make it to Anaheim on a hair over 3/4 tank of gas in a car with such nice performance. Went up and down the mountains of 152 and Grapevine like flatland. After a whole year, we are still amazed by the ease with which it takes to steep grade and then still returns respectable gas mileage.
For this same drive, our Sienna van could do no better than 21+ mpg and our truck used to yield a dismal 17+ mpg.
First and foremost, Toyota designed the Highlander with performance in mind. Which means it isn't ever going to come close to the Prius, or even the Camry. It does get significantly better MPG, and of course spews less harmful emissions than other SUV's in that horsepower range, which are mainly much larger SUV's.
I have noticed that more than a few are unhappy with their MPG, and I have to chalk that up to poor research before buying the car. If a person had in mind fantastic MPG, even using the government's figures, they should never have chosen the HH. If they wanted to get significantly better MPG than other SUV's, without sacrificing power and performance, it makes good sense to buy it.
I assume many HH drivers will improve their mileage, like others who have posted in these forums, by paying attention to the displays and moderating the way they drive, especially the way they start at traffic lights, etc.
And, that manner of starting up has big mileage gains no matter what type of vehicle you are driving, btw.