I, generally, agree with your post. I have already complained to my dealer about this, and suggested that Toyota do the same as Mercedes, and simply offer two drivings modes--Mercedes calls them "comfort" and "sport", basically meaning "sane" and aggressive.
On the other hand, when you get to the speed bumps, if you simply shift into manual "2", the problem is resoloved. I have also found this same effect, since I must navigate 15 speed bumps in my gated community to get home. Mine are those sizeable mounds made of brick pavers, not the bumpy ones. At least in my case, I have found that the trick is to roll over them, and neither be accelerating, nor braking, when passing over. It has taken some practice, but I can drive my Avalon at 10 mph, or below, and not have any problem. Another thing I do is accelerate during both lower gear changes, which you will feel. If you have an effect of accelerating, then backing off, then switching gears, then accelerating (only at low speeds) this problem is quite marked. I know this seems annoying, but is quite simple, and for me, solves the issue.
I still also go back to the gas--this is a car that needs SUPER-PREMIUM, if there ever was one.
I know that there are many out there who think very pragmatically, in the line of thinking that this is an automatic tranny, and one should not have to think to drive it. I still think that, what I have to do to get my car to drive smoothly is a small price to pay to have a car that gets such high gas mileage, and can yet move so well with so much power.
Slack in the gas pedal or sensor is something that alan_s also investigated. At one point he made a very careful analysis and fabricated a piece of plastic that he placed in the gas pedal housing. He reported that this actually cured his car's hesitation for a few days. But the old symptoms returned, later on.
Search for "alan_s gas pedal" in the Avalon 2005+ board, or you can go directly to his message #11901 and follow its later unraveling in #11904 #11908 #11941 #12070 #12071 #12193...
In his message #12071 alan_s said "however what I omitted to convey to you all, is that recently the ECU started to compensate for the changed gas pedal position, and gradually reverted to it's previous strange behavior and "hesitation". Very frustrating."
havalongavalon: Just got back from 2 weeks fishing in your fine country--love going to Canada every year! We were at Lac la Ronge in Saskatchewan--big lake trout and walleyes. Hey--fiahing I understand and thats why the reels have a "drag" system to accomodate the varying sizes of the fish--maybe the same priniple need s to be applied to braking and gas peddle pressure! I guess that after 50+ years of driving--I thought I knew how to apply the brakes and step on the gas---duh---I guess I needed my Avalon to give me Continuing education! Breaks over--back to class!!! Bob
and wouldn't this and many other things be a condition of sometimes overapplications of technology. Closest parallel I can think of: the XP 'powered' computer that I write this from. Not too many years ago I would build and setup computers for folks and could reasonably figure out what was wrong with them. Not any more. While there is no denying that computers have improved several orders of magnitude in terms of what they can do, there is also no arguing that they have largely developed an 'intelligence' of their own and further, that problems become, for the most part, undiagnosable. Solutions to our computer problems are solved mostly by reboots, reinstallations, and/or disappear majically on their own. The same for our Avalons. Can the transmission be coaxed into situations where it has a delay in downshifting to appropriate gears - sure, is it largely avoidable with some alteration of driving styles - sure. Should we HAVE to make those accomodations - now that would be a good question. But, in any case, the handwriting is on the wall - we will adjust to the 'thinking' automobile much in the same way that Mr. Gates is dictating how we use our computers (and to some extent, how we think)- or we simply won't drive. Had the experience of driving a new 545 BMW for a week not too long ago, and while it is an absolutley superior driver's car, it is also an egronomic nightmare. Just like scrolling through multiple menus to get XP to work, I have to go through 5 menus to simply change a radio station - and that was only after I 'agreed' not to use the silly system when the vehicle was moving. The Avalon, and some of the many good cars like it, ia an amazing combination of power, economy and comfort which it couldn't be without these electronic systems just like that 545 couldn't be what it is without the ludricrous 'I-Drive". So love it or leave it, it will get worse (or better depending on your perspective) - and that frig and microwave that is 'smarter' than you are, probably now in your local stores!
Since I tend to like my Avalon for a number of unrelated reasons, and, have found this tranny issue vexing at times, I have spent some time thinking about this while driving this week. My commute is about one hour each way, and includes backed up traffic, curving mountainous roads, highway high speed driving, city streets, and speed bumps at work, probably like the ones that you experience.
That being said, I purposely tried to "pretend" that I was driving my car for the first time. I noted that, after I had been in heavy traffic, my transmission seemed to, yet again, reprogram itself. I believe that part of the issue here is, not only the shifting of the transmission, however, significant sensitivity in the gas pedal. Even though some may say that the idea of "learning" to drive a car is ridiculous, I still stand by these words. If I drive like my mother, who invaribly over accelerates and over brakes constantly--and her who life, the car drives horribly. It is imperative to have a smooth foot, not accelerating more than necessary. I think that this also may come from feeling that one has to press the gas a certain way to get the car to move.
The other effect I still claim is letting off the gas after the car revs into second gear, before it shifts to third. I found that I was able to get the car to shift smoothly--accelerating, at least, from any speed (even standing) to any speed, by GENTLY pressing the gas, AND, NOT LETTING UP until the transmission shifts TWO TIMES. The human tendency after one shift, due to the significant acceleration and power felt under your foot, say after that speed bump, is to let off the gas. Instead, stay on it, but gently all the way to AT LEAST third gear. When I did this, I never experienced any "herky-jerky" feeling.
Decelerating is similar IMO--if the car is shifting and you suddenly press the gas--it will shift less smoothly than otherwise, however, in my opinion, not rough enough to run to the dealer, or sell the car.
I hope this helps.
Another note: After about 1,000K miles on my Yoko 225/55 Advan's (the stock tires are 215 for you non-driving-enthusiasts) I'm convinced that this was the best thing I ever did. I'm starting to wonder if my stability/traction/anti-lock systems are still working, since I have yet to feel them in action. If you live where it rains a lot, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a better gripping tire this this one.
Very nice analysis. We certainly agree that " part of the issue here is ... significant sensitivity in the gas pedal."
I really like your description that "I was able to get the car to shift smoothly ... from any speed (even standing) to any speed, by GENTLY pressing the gas, AND, NOT LETTING UP until the transmission shifts TWO TIMES." This is how I drive my Avalon as well.
The basic message is: for smooth and rapid acceleration the Avalon requires gentle and continuous gas pedal pressure input. Just Press Gently and Hold and the ECU will figure out how to proceed quickly and smoothly.
A similar concept as for smooth braking with ABS -- we already know to never, never "pump" the brake pedal. Never pump the gas pedal, either, as this would send confusing commands to the ECU.
On your other note: Rain and hilly terrain are our default conditions here in Vancouver. I'll remember to check the Yoko 225/55 Advan's when my Michelins wear out, a year or two from now. I assume that these Yokos fit on your stock rims -- correct?
I am having the same problem with the hesitation/surging in my '06 Avalon when I press the gas. When I am going up a hill and I come to a sharp corner where I have to reduce speed, the car jerks forward by itself without any pressure on the accelerator after a second. Going downhill and I have to reduce speed to turn a corner, the engine races for a little bit before the gear engages. I have reported the problem to the dealership and the supervisor of maintenance says it is the computer causing it. I left it with the dealership and asked the ownner to drive it this weekend.
I continue to spend time thinking about the acceleration issue while driving, and believe that, as much as I agree with others' viewpoints, much of this really is simply getting used to the car. Having an automatic transmission--at least in my opinion, after having owned about 16 cars--doesn't mean that you don't have to adjust driving style from one car to another. Last night a friend and I went out...she asked to drive my "limo", as she calls it, and I, with hesitations (very fussy about others driving my cars) let her. The ride was less than smooth, and she had some difficulty getting the car to shift without some uncomfortable sudden lurching acceleration. When I left her and returned home, this stopped, and I didn't even have to think about my driving habits to get the car to drive smoothly.
I honestly believe, short of a true defect, it IS in fact possible to get the 06 Avalon to drive more then acceptably smooth, even if this isn't the case the first time out, or even the second or third.
As far as the tires are concerned, I really wish you could drive my car--if you spend two years driving on those inferior Michelins, you'll probably feel regretful after you finally put something deserving on the car. With each passing day, I'm more and more convinced that the stock tires are an extremely poor choice for this car--even for conservative drivers who don't care about increasing performance, like me.
Thanks for the suggestion regarding "...GENTLY pressing the gas, AND, NOT LETTING UP until the transmission shifts TWO TIMES." You're right, it does help with the speed bumps! Thanks for the suggestion!
I've had my 05 Limited just over 1 yr. and have 18,000 miles on it. Still very satisfied. I've had none of the hesitation/transmission issues. Very smooth ride, excellent acceleration and power, firm, but comfortable driver's seat (with the seat cushion extended) and the back seat room and comfort are limo like. The front passenger seat can not be raised or lowered and is not as comfortable. We've taken several 5+ hr. trips and 1 12+ hr. one day trip and were comfortable. Gas mileage is super. 30 on hilly interstates going 70 MPH with AC on. About 28 when driving 50% highway and 50% suburban streets. All on 89 octane. There is distortion when you look out the rear window, but this hasn't been a distraction for me, since I only take brief looks out of the back. I do have a couple of door dings, but they are up high, probably caused by the rear view mirrors of trucks and SUV's. So door molding would not have helped.
The only "problems" we have had was a mud shield came loose in a rear wheel well, a sun visor had to be replaced & we got a crack in the front windshield. The first 2 were covered as warranty work and the last was covered by insurance. (I was told that it was an expensive windshield.)
Don't have NAV, so can't comment on that. Love the Smart Key and driver's seat cushion extender. The rear sun shade is nice too.
I also considered and test drove a Caddy CTS, Acura TL and Lexus 330. All fine cars, but I have no regrets about this purchase. Hopes this helps someone who is considering an Avalon.
On the flip side, I own an 06 Ltd. Avalon, 4800 miles. I was experiencing minor "quirky" reactions with the trans that I thought I could live with until this morning. Over the past couple of days, I noticed the trans to be even more "quirkier" than normal (i.e. many shifts at low speeds with rpm surge and late engagement of trans), akin to popping a clutch on a manual trans. This morning, upon approaching an on-ramp to a major highway in NJ, I slowed then attempted to accelerate trying to merge with traffic. I noticed the RPMs hit 4-5 k and the trans did not engage. I kept constant pressure on the accelerator until the car finally lurched into gear. By this time I was at the end of the access ramp and had to slam on the brakes to avoid a collision. Plenty of skid marks on the Route 23 on-ramp to attest to my near miss. I've followed this site and was aware of the potential trans. issues affecing earlier '05 build cars (mine a 2006 model built in 12/05). However it appears to be systemic with this model. I am not one to whine over minor issues or react to isolated occurrences. I work in a quality compliance position with the pharmaceutical industry. I state this so I'm not represented as some gray-haired senior who has driven Buicks all their life. On the contrary, I came off a newer Nissan Maxima and have as a second car a 2006 BMW...never experiencing this before. Manipulation of my foot position on the pedal does nothing except give me shin splints. Unfortunately, I've formalized my complaint with Toyota Corporate, with expectations of applying the NJ Lemon Law if not resolved to MY satisfaction. I will nto accept a statement saying this is "normal operation". To all you future Avalon owners, throw the die (along with $34K) to see if your new Avalon will have the same problem.
yotaowner: Scary as hell--huh? I had never had any transmission problems, (06 Limited--4,100 miles), until one day about a month ago. In my case, thank goodness no oncoming traffic or I would have been in the same situation. I was on my way to the dealer for an oil change---told them about the issue--they couldn't duplicate. Has happened again 3 times--next trip to the dealer, the Service Manager and I are going for a ride--I'll show him how to duplicate!! I've been driving over 50 years---I Do know how an automatic transmission should and shouldn't work. I've owned Lincoln's, Caddy's, Volvo's, Buick's, Pontiac's, Ford's, VW's,---with both auto & manual transmissions--never had anything like the situations with the Avalon. I now know what to expect and have been using the "manual" mode and it works great. My biggest issue--I bought an atomatic--make it work like an automatic. I wrote to the National Highway Traffic Safety Associaton about 2 weeks ago--no reply yet. Bob
I have just returned from an 800 mile trip in the Ozarks and my transmission did tricks I hadn't experienced before. It lurched at times, drove me crazy downshifting to 3rd on hills going 65mph. On one occasion, I was driving about 68 and went down a steep hill and the car increased speed to about 74 and as it went up the next rise, still about 73,it went down to 3rd gear, with a loud clunk, then 4th and finally back to 5th. On the same trip, I backed out of a driveway and turned to go up a steep hill. Car didn't move even though I had the accelerator depressed. Suddenly, with another big clunk, the transmission caught and off I went. Back to the dealer when I got home, for the third time. It was put on the tester and no bad codes. Service mgr said that they have had many, many complaints and Toyota keeps saying that nothing is wrong. Dealer's opinion is that Toyota had better get their act together and fix this transmission problem.
I would encourage you to call Toyota Corporate and log a complaint (800-331-4331). Get a person on the phone and start a file. Have your VIN number available. I am by no means trashing Toyota or the car, in fact I like the ride, great mpg and room for my family of 5. But...I refuse to have to contend with this type of transmission performance on a brand new $34k automobile, particularly if it has safety implications as outlined in my original email. Having read through many of the postings on this board, and having owned many cars with automatic transmissions, this is NOT NORMAL, regardless of what Toyota claims. Lemon laws in most states do get the attention of auto makers.
All With Transmission problems: Time we all call the 800-331-4331 number and "en masse" beseiged them with complaints--free call--maybe we'll get someone's attention. When the dealers admit Toyota has a problem that needs to be fixed--they have a problem that needs to be FIXED!! I'm caling now--give them a call--together maybe we can get the issue resolved. Bob
Mine built 02/05, a Touring now with 32k (16 months)and never have I experienced anything like happened to you - although I can intentionally get the tranny to exhibit some unusual behavior especially when reapplying hard throttle, accelerating from lower speeds. Systematic may be a good description for the problem, but you need to read some comments from new Camry and Sienna owners if you would be thinking that this is unique to Avalons. It is the transmission control software that is designed to maximize those treasured mpgs (and minimize torque steer issues) that is the bulk of the cause and it would seem past time for Toyota to offer a software fix to those of us that prefer more drivability - probably, at the cost of a few mpg. With several hnudred thousand vehicles out there (between the new Camrys, Sienna, and Avalons) would be a helluva recall/TSB? My car - wouldn't take it in if I knew my 27 mpg would suffer and really think that the car has 'taught' me how IT WANTS to be driven. Kind of the same way that the word processor I use tells you how IT WANTS me to write a letter... Isn't all this silly technology wonderful! And the 'funny' part of all this, have kept a close eye on the several glowing Avalon (and now Camry) reviews by the consumer and enthusiast mags. and have never read a thing about unusual transmission behavior - actually quite the opposite!
Its our 1 year anniversary of buying our Avalon too, was nice to get a card from our sales rep checking to make sure we were still happy.
At 12,500 miles we haven't experienced the problem yet, but if and when we do, we will really appreciate your having done that. We sure would call now if we were having the problem!
Glad to see you got a case number from Toyota. My wife and I toured the NUMMI plant in Fremont, CA a couple of years ago, and they really seemed to have their act together in many ways. I'm surprised - though do not doubt for a minute - a problem like this exists. It's amazing how technologically involved car design and production has become! Sometimes I long for the days of my '70 Bonneville, but not its 12.5 MPG!.
:lemon: I looked for some time at sedans for less than $35K. I immediately fell in love with the Avalon and bought the 06 Touring in 8/05 for a bit more of a sporty/youthful feel (I am 35). Surprisingly, I have had numerous problems with the vehicle. Broken trim over glove box (2x), complete replacement of moonroof (2x), broken tuner antenna, Tech bulletin replacement of catalytic converter, replacement of faulty A-pillar (front & rear passenger) trim.
Throughout the process Toyota Service Tech's have been fabulous and gone out of their way to be courteous and supportive including loaners cars (full days shop visits since purchase = 10).
I went into this aware of Toyota's build quality so I want to believe I bought a bad instance of a great car. A bit disappointed and am considering trading it in on an alternative vehicle.
On the interstate today with almost no traffic and car in D, I slowed down to 40MPH twice and 30MPH once and all three times then "floorboarded it", the RPMs shot up at the same time the car accelerated like a scalded cat with no hesitation or lag at all. My '05 Limited transmission works.
limiteddriver: Try coasting to a Yield or Stop sign in a secluded area and then "floor it" like ya did on the interstate and see what happens-- as you watch, I'm "almost POSITIVE" the RPM's will shoot to 3,000-5,000 and then the tranny connects and with a SIGNIFICANT lurch--off ya go!!! If it doesn't respond as outlined--I'll be amazed!! I was one of the original sceptics--until the "lurching" tranny sensation has happened to me about 10 times now! Bob
FYI; There are a lot of emails debating/discussing foot placement on the gas pedal (toeing vs whole foot) and how this may help the engine/transmission hide and seek game.
I did as you suggested. i tried speeds of 15, 20 and 25 MPH and had the same results as before, RPMs increased and the scalded cat reaction was still there with no lurch from the transmission. You have read the posts on foot placement on the accelerator pedal which seems in some cases to solve the transmission issue? Hope you get your problem resolved.
Bob- since you have had your car a while and hadn't (apparently) noted too much objectionable behavior - would suggest to you that you have 'discovered' how to get the tranny to hesitate. In exactly the situtation you outline (coasting dwon to low speeds,) the transmission is holding onto higher gears than necessary, creating the need for multiple gear downshifts (and the hesitation/rpm surge) when you really punch it hard to accelerate. I can get my car to do it as well. the solution I have found has been to avoid that situation, firmly but gradually reapplying the throttle. The car will actually accelerate more quickly that way - which, as noted by limiteddriver is like a scalded cat. Toyota, rightfully or wrongly, is forcing us to change the way we drive - the new Camrys (5 and 6 speed) and Siennas all exhibit the same sort of behavior. While it is certainly true that some of the other mfgrs. find ways to make all this electronically controlled 'garbage' work more seamlessly, I doubt there is anything 'wrong' with your car - it is working as Toyota has designed it!
captain2/limiteddriver: I just make sure I'm in the "manual" mode--no problems and I KNOW it works--so if I need to go like a "scalded cat" I can!! I can't believe that in a 21st Century car i have to "teach" it how to work. Wish I had my F-150 tranny--it shifted smoothly and quietly. I thought we were 'supposed" to make everything work more effortlessly and smoothly as we progressed in car making?!! Love the car--i've resigned myself to "manual" shifting when I know the situation calls for it. What I ewanted limiteddriver to do was--slow "WAY DOWN"--almost to a stop and then step on the gas as normal--mine is fine as long as its going 10 MPH or more. Bob
Okay I did as you wished, I tried 5MPH, 3MPH and almost a dead stop after going over a speed bump and the transmission did not hesitate, I only got fast acceleration. After all these tests I have ruined my average MPG on this tank full. LOL Hope this answers your questions.
limiteddriver--CONGRATS--glad no problems--send me the bill for the gas--Ha Ha!! Just to check again, I just returned from an errand and sure nuff--the ole tranny was up to her quirky tricks!! Back to the manual mode--it works!! Was your car dealer stock or did you order? I ordered mine early Jan 06 and it was delivered within 3 weeks--just was wondering when yours was made? I'm getting 26+ MPG running around the hilly Ozark country and over 30 MPG at 75+MPH on the road. Good luck--the Avy, despite the tranny quirk which I know "over ride"--is one helluva car. Bob
Bob, I used to live in southern AR but I've been to the Ozarks. Please take the money you think you owe me for gas and get yourself a great steak dinner. My dad used to say that every thing looks better after a great steak and I agree. The Avalon is a great car how ever you drive it. My wife says after 15 years with a convertible and two years without that we need a new covertible so we're looking at hardtop convetibles especially the VW EOS and Volvo C70. We'd keep the Avalon.
Would contend to you that this 'teaching' and 'learning' by the inanimate is a condition of the 21st century. Not too long ago we could all diagnose and repair many of our automotive problems - now it has become difficult even for the people to do it that have the proper equipment. Have a friend that got stuck in a heavy traffic jam on a hot day in his new Nissan Titan, after a while in the traffic the transmission 'decided' to stop working altogether. Towed back to the dealer, the computer indicated (error code) that it happened BUT for no apparent reason. The solution - reboot the computer and the truck has been fine ever since! BMWs, who most people will agree make a helluva automobile, are becoming so infected with electronic gremlins that they can become almost undriveable.
In all fairness, however, to all these computer systems that we are now having to deal with - the great combination of power and economy that we all enjoy with our Avs is largely because of systems like this and further makes possible these 'safety' systems that most people regard as a 'must have'. Toyota's implementation of electronic control on its transmissions may indeed leave something to be desired - but, there is a reason for it - MPGs.
Let's assume that the engine/transaxle really is "learning", somehow trying to predict what the driver's next "move" will be and acting accordingly.
Back long ago, say in the fifties when Ford starting building more cars with automatic transmissions, many of us learned that if we wanted the transmission to upshift more quickly than otherwise, normal, we could just momentarily lift the accelerator pedal slightly.
There are now lots of indications that this delay/hesitation "symptom" has something to do with the way we "treat" the accelerator pedal.
Suppose, as the driver, I'm looking ahead and see a stop sign coming up, as a rule I would lift the accelerator pedal completely. That should be a "message" to the engine/transaxle ECU that I DO NOT wish to enter cruise mode, rather that I either wish to coastdown to a lower speed or come to a full stop.
But now lets suppose that just by happenstance I keep just the slightest level of pressure on the accelerator pedal during the time I'm coasting down to stop at the upcoming intersection.
Might the ECU just "sit" there in a "what do I do now" stage or would it look to my past driving history for a clue? My guess is that it would "upshift", thinking that my real intent was to enter "cruise mode".
Quite a number of posters have indicated that foot placement seems to help to alleviate this symptom. The higher you place your foot on the accelerator pedal the more foot pressure it will take for a given position of the throttle. Obviously that would make it more difficult to "feather" the throttle, hold the accelerator in a slightly throttle open position.
High foot placement would therefore likely result in less "confusion" on the part of the engine/transaxle ECU.
So, for those of you with these experiences, try this.
When, or while, you are certain you wish to come to a full stop, remove your foot fully from the accelerator pedal. Do the same when you have the need to slow, say in the merging situation, lift the throttle completely until or unless you reach the point wherein you make the decision that actual acceleration is needed.
I don't see any of these complicated instructions in the owners/operators manual. When I purchase an auto, I want it to do the thinking, since I'm busy watching out for dangerous drivers that infest our highways. In other word's a drivers attention should be on driving and not trying to satisfy/figure out what a transmission in goint to do.
Cj- it follows, then, that if you want to do the thinking then you would also have no use for things like stability/traction control systems and even ABS because that's is exactly what happens when these system activate, the car is making decisions for you! I, personally, also have a problem with anything in my car that makes those kind of decisions for me - my Touring not VSC/Trac equipped. Few folks would agree, however. Maybe it's in the way I drive or possibly in that the car has 'trained' me to operate it smoothly but, after 32k miles have not really found anything terribly annoying (or dangerous) in the way my tranny behaves.
We hedged our bets by throwing the die for an XL instead - for only $25k, and "saved" $9k. Almost as cheap as the Camry XLE with a couple of extra options, guess it all depends what you want to drive!
I'm no lawyer but....if the transmission problems that keep being posted are real, wouldn't Toyota now be in serious trouble if an accident occurred? With all the postings on this site and a few articles in the press, Toyota couldn't claim ignorance. Either Toyota is really stupid or the problem does not exist or someone at Toyota has not talked to the legal department.
I have a 2000XLS and have been reading this site as I think about a replacement. Think I'll hang on to it until I feel assured that the tranny can be trusted
Almost all of these engine/transaxle delay/hesitation complaints, if not all of them, involve FWD or front biased AWD vehicles.
When you are coming to a stop, coasting down to a stop, if the roadbed happens to be quite slippery there is a real danger that almost any level of engine compression braking will/can result in complete loss of directional control.
What is, will be, the very first thing you would do, instinctively, if you felt the vehicle was not following the direction set by your stearing inputs?
Lift the accelerator pedal..QUICKLY...!!
If you are very near coming to a full and complete stop and the transaxle has already downshifted into 1st gear the level of engine compression braking could well be high enough to cause the front wheels/tires to completely break traction with the slippery roadbed.
I have been involved in moderately slippery roadbed conditions with a RWD wherein the ABS was so active the vehicle would literally not come to a complete stop. I'm quite sure that had it been a FWD with just a slight level of engine compression braking the ABS would have been ineffective, maybe totally so.
It is in these conditions that the AAA is currently recommending that drivers practice and learn to quickly shift a clutchless FWD vehicle's transaxle into neutral in order to increase the probability of maintaining directional control.
It is hard for me to believe that Toyota would go to these measures to increase the safety factor of their FWD and front biased AWD vehicles and then silently endure the adverse publicity without speaking up with an explanation.
So let's suppose that the insurance industry held a meeting with the automotive industry executives and told them that if they didn't in some way act to reduce or alleviate the number of accidents, injuries and deaths due to FWD engine braking they would go public and start charging a premium for policies involving operation of FWD and/or front biased AWD vehicles.
We all know that BA, Brake Assist, involves monitoring the rate at which the brake pedal is applied and ASSISTING the level of braking if the application rate indicates a PANIC stop.
So what if they are now also monitoring the RATE at which you lift the throttle and then quickly upshifting the transaxle accordingly. A simulation of the AAA recommendation.
And no individual company dare go public absent an agreement amongst all FWD manufacturers.
Look at Honda/Acura, the SH-AWD system specifically, who among us would have ever thought of that marque to the first to break ranks and begin the move away from FWD??
It is hard for me to believe that Toyota would go to these measures to increase the safety factor of their FWD and front biased AWD vehicles and then silently endure the adverse publicity without speaking up with an explanation. which is precisely why I don't buy your argument - if Toyota had developed a means to minimize the effect of compression braking i.e. keeping the tranny in higher gears and/or programming a delay into lower gear selections - they would be promoting the bejeepers out of it. Why - because then they have that PC nirvana called a 'safety ' feature that nobody else has. Still contend that the main motivations behind the tranny behavior has to do first with maximizing FE and secondly with minimizing torque steer.
As for your continuing contention that FWD is inherently unsafe - that would be a subject for some future debate.
See my earlier post about duplicating the trans. hesitation when the car is in cruise control. This occurred on a straight, dry road surface, with moderate inclines. I was nursing my shin splints which resulted from awkward repositioning of my foot during my feeble attempt at re-learning how to drive a late model Toyota.
You are over-looking a rather important facet of the whole issue. Were Toyota to publicize this new "feature" it would represent an acknowledgement that all FWD vehicles, of ALL marques, absent this "feature" are unsafe to drive in wintertime adverse conditions.
But in a weird way the issue is being publicized.
Look at the online movies touting Honda/Acura's SH-AWD system. Read up on the operation of the new GS300 AWD system. And lastly read up on the 4runner's AWD mode.
and this, if true, would be no different to the weight sensors/deployment rate variances/disable options etc. that were later added to car airbag systems - after if was discovered that children [and others] were being killed?
Here's a follow-up to my transmission "issue" (see earlier post about merging/trans hesitation). I picked up the car from the dealer and noticed that the "reported problem" was categorized as "normal operation in comparason to other Avalons at this time". Sort of like comparing a broken part against other broken parts (at this time) to confirm that nothing is broken. Granted, I was not expecting a new transmission, or any direct admission of a problem which couldn't be fixed, but this wording is just bizzare.
It all boils down to these 4 words "VOICE OF THE CUSTOMER". When you lose sight of it, the market will lose sight of you.
yotaowner,wandering if your state has a lemon law, if so, follow the instructions to a tee, maybe that will get some attention.
I can sympathize with you as my 06 Avalon is doing the same, I've been told by the Service Manager that, "the hesitation is normal", of course I ask, "if those that don't do it, are they abnormal?"... I got no answer.
If you're wondering, I am keeping a comprehensive record and I will be using the lemon law if I get no results after one more trip to the shop. Georgia law states that you have to give the dealership 3 trys to correct the problem.
will be interested if there can be a satisfactory result using 'lemon laws'. It gets down to Toyota has 3 chances to correct a 'problem' that they would certainly contend is not one. While lemon laws in all states are consumer protection legislation, I don't believe that the consumer is necessarily the judge of what a problem really is - that would definitely open up a can of worms that could be unfair to the mfgrs. Suggest some qualified 3rd party opinions on your specific car, as well as some testimony from other owners with the same complaints, probably along with a TV lawyer - could get expensive.
I guess I can be added to the list of people with an avy that has transmission issues. I was on the highway last night....had to slow down quick...then when I stepped on the gas, for a moment nothing happen...then all of a sudden...BAM it hit in gear and lurched forward...thankfully I wasn't tailgating. I have noticed other issues with a delay from the time i step on the pedal to the time the car actually realizes it. Sometimes it is ok and runs normally, other times it is unpredicable.
I am rather disappointed with these kinds of issues for a 30k car. I had a tacoma before this and was so happy with the reliability, now I cringe every time I take the avy out cause I am not sure when the transmission will act up. I called my local toyota dealer..and said this is common for all newer cars...??? Transmission lurch, delay, etc is normal? Does that mean I need to go back to buying pre-2000 cars to get one that goes when you step on the pedal? Or that doesn't dangerously lurch forward when it decides it does want to go? I hope toyota gets their crap together and puts out a recall.
For you and others experiencing this delay/hesitation problem would you be willing to try something?
Disconnect the MAF/IAT sensor while the engine is running and then simply reconnect it and restart the engine. For the next few driving cycles the VSC/Trac system will be disabled.
I'm wondering if the engine/transaxle ECU control firmware's "ASL" need/desire to quickly upshift to improve FE and then just as quickly downshift as the need, driver's input, changes sometimes conflicts with the VSC/Trac systems firmware in the need/desire for it to prevent a serious level of engine compression braking.
If the VSC/Trac firmware were to be inactivated for a period of time....
An explanation, of sorts.
Say you're trying to take a tight turn rapidly, at a high acceleration rate. I could readily see the engine/transaxle ECU sending a "message" packet to the VSC/Trac ECU asking "how much torque can I generate safely". The VSC/Trac system must then look at its 3 minutes of recent driving history for any indication of wheel/spin/slippage and likely other parameters.
The result, as many of you already know and have experienced, is a reluctance to allow you to accelerate rapid into a tight turn. Not altogether a bad idea at its core(***) but certainly opens the door for two separate firmware packages, running on two separate ECUs, to become "dead-locked".
*** With FWD or front biased AWD it is often not a good idea to have high engine torque delivered to the front drive wheels while they are also under a heavy traction load due to directional control inputs. With RWD it can often be a bit exciting but not necessarily leading to loss of directional control.
As I have said before these delay/hesitation reports, of certain specificity, seem to be much more predominant with FWD and front biased AWD Toyota/Lexus vehicles.
Comments
I, generally, agree with your post. I have already complained to my dealer about this, and suggested that Toyota do the same as Mercedes, and simply offer two drivings modes--Mercedes calls them "comfort" and "sport", basically meaning "sane" and aggressive.
On the other hand, when you get to the speed bumps, if you simply shift into manual "2", the problem is resoloved. I have also found this same effect, since I must navigate 15 speed bumps in my gated community to get home. Mine are those sizeable mounds made of brick pavers, not the bumpy ones. At least in my case, I have found that the trick is to roll over them, and neither be accelerating, nor braking, when passing over. It has taken some practice, but I can drive my Avalon at 10 mph, or below, and not have any problem. Another thing I do is accelerate during both lower gear changes, which you will feel. If you have an effect of accelerating, then backing off, then switching gears, then accelerating (only at low speeds) this problem is quite marked. I know this seems annoying, but is quite simple, and for me, solves the issue.
I still also go back to the gas--this is a car that needs SUPER-PREMIUM, if there ever was one.
I know that there are many out there who think very pragmatically, in the line of thinking that this is an automatic tranny, and one should not have to think to drive it. I still think that, what I have to do to get my car to drive smoothly is a small price to pay to have a car that gets such high gas mileage, and can yet move so well with so much power.
Slack in the gas pedal or sensor is something that alan_s also investigated. At one point he made a very careful analysis and fabricated a piece of plastic that he placed in the gas pedal housing. He reported that this actually cured his car's hesitation for a few days. But the old symptoms returned, later on.
Search for "alan_s gas pedal" in the Avalon 2005+ board, or you can go directly to his message #11901 and follow its later unraveling in #11904 #11908 #11941 #12070 #12071 #12193...
havalongavalon
when / what post was it where he indicated the symptoms returned a few days later? i couldn't find that.
plastic is a "plastic"
but seriously, i liked very much your back and forth on this subject matter.
alan_s, if you are still visiting the forum, can you recap?
Bob
The same for our Avalons. Can the transmission be coaxed into situations where it has a delay in downshifting to appropriate gears - sure, is it largely avoidable with some alteration of driving styles - sure. Should we HAVE to make those accomodations - now that would be a good question.
But, in any case, the handwriting is on the wall - we will adjust to the 'thinking' automobile much in the same way that Mr. Gates is dictating how we use our computers (and to some extent, how we think)- or we simply won't drive.
Had the experience of driving a new 545 BMW for a week not too long ago, and while it is an absolutley superior driver's car, it is also an egronomic nightmare. Just like scrolling through multiple menus to get XP to work, I have to go through 5 menus to simply change a radio station - and that was only after I 'agreed' not to use the silly system when the vehicle was moving.
The Avalon, and some of the many good cars like it, ia an amazing combination of power, economy and comfort which it couldn't be without these electronic systems just like that 545 couldn't be what it is without the ludricrous 'I-Drive". So love it or leave it, it will get worse (or better depending on your perspective) - and that frig and microwave that is 'smarter' than you are, probably now in your local stores!
Sounds like Mercedes has the right idea. Hopefully, Toyota follows suit. Thanks for your suggestions about the speed bumps!
Buzz
Since I tend to like my Avalon for a number of unrelated reasons, and, have found this tranny issue vexing at times, I have spent some time thinking about this while driving this week. My commute is about one hour each way, and includes backed up traffic, curving mountainous roads, highway high speed driving, city streets, and speed bumps at work, probably like the ones that you experience.
That being said, I purposely tried to "pretend" that I was driving my car for the first time. I noted that, after I had been in heavy traffic, my transmission seemed to, yet again, reprogram itself. I believe that part of the issue here is, not only the shifting of the transmission, however, significant sensitivity in the gas pedal. Even though some may say that the idea of "learning" to drive a car is ridiculous, I still stand by these words. If I drive like my mother, who invaribly over accelerates and over brakes constantly--and her who life, the car drives horribly. It is imperative to have a smooth foot, not accelerating more than necessary. I think that this also may come from feeling that one has to press the gas a certain way to get the car to move.
The other effect I still claim is letting off the gas after the car revs into second gear, before it shifts to third. I found that I was able to get the car to shift smoothly--accelerating, at least, from any speed (even standing) to any speed, by GENTLY pressing the gas, AND, NOT LETTING UP until the transmission shifts TWO TIMES. The human tendency after one shift, due to the significant acceleration and power felt under your foot, say after that speed bump, is to let off the gas. Instead, stay on it, but gently all the way to AT LEAST third gear. When I did this, I never experienced any "herky-jerky" feeling.
Decelerating is similar IMO--if the car is shifting and you suddenly press the gas--it will shift less smoothly than otherwise, however, in my opinion, not rough enough to run to the dealer, or sell the car.
I hope this helps.
Another note: After about 1,000K miles on my Yoko 225/55 Advan's (the stock tires are 215 for you non-driving-enthusiasts) I'm convinced that this was the best thing I ever did. I'm starting to wonder if my stability/traction/anti-lock systems are still working, since I have yet to feel them in action. If you live where it rains a lot, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a better gripping tire this this one.
Very nice analysis. We certainly agree that " part of the issue here is ... significant sensitivity in the gas pedal."
I really like your description that "I was able to get the car to shift smoothly ... from any speed (even standing) to any speed, by GENTLY pressing the gas, AND, NOT LETTING UP until the transmission shifts TWO TIMES." This is how I drive my Avalon as well.
The basic message is: for smooth and rapid acceleration the Avalon requires gentle and continuous gas pedal pressure input. Just Press Gently and Hold and the ECU will figure out how to proceed quickly and smoothly.
A similar concept as for smooth braking with ABS -- we already know to never, never "pump" the brake pedal. Never pump the gas pedal, either, as this would send confusing commands to the ECU.
On your other note: Rain and hilly terrain are our default conditions here in Vancouver. I'll remember to check the Yoko 225/55 Advan's when my Michelins wear out, a year or two from now. I assume that these Yokos fit on your stock rims -- correct?
havalongavalon
I continue to spend time thinking about the acceleration issue while driving, and believe that, as much as I agree with others' viewpoints, much of this really is simply getting used to the car. Having an automatic transmission--at least in my opinion, after having owned about 16 cars--doesn't mean that you don't have to adjust driving style from one car to another. Last night a friend and I went out...she asked to drive my "limo", as she calls it, and I, with hesitations (very fussy about others driving my cars) let her. The ride was less than smooth, and she had some difficulty getting the car to shift without some uncomfortable sudden lurching acceleration. When I left her and returned home, this stopped, and I didn't even have to think about my driving habits to get the car to drive smoothly.
I honestly believe, short of a true defect, it IS in fact possible to get the 06 Avalon to drive more then acceptably smooth, even if this isn't the case the first time out, or even the second or third.
As far as the tires are concerned, I really wish you could drive my car--if you spend two years driving on those inferior Michelins, you'll probably feel regretful after you finally put something deserving on the car. With each passing day, I'm more and more convinced that the stock tires are an extremely poor choice for this car--even for conservative drivers who don't care about increasing performance, like me.
Thanks for the suggestion regarding "...GENTLY pressing the gas, AND, NOT LETTING UP until the transmission shifts TWO TIMES." You're right, it does help with the speed bumps! Thanks for the suggestion!
Buzz
The only "problems" we have had was a mud shield came loose in a rear wheel well, a sun visor had to be replaced & we got a crack in the front windshield. The first 2 were covered as warranty work and the last was covered by insurance. (I was told that it was an expensive windshield.)
Don't have NAV, so can't comment on that. Love the Smart Key and driver's seat cushion extender. The rear sun shade is nice too.
I also considered and test drove a Caddy CTS, Acura TL and Lexus 330. All fine cars, but I have no regrets about this purchase. Hopes this helps someone who is considering an Avalon.
Bob
I have just returned from an 800 mile trip in the Ozarks and my transmission did tricks I hadn't experienced before. It lurched at times, drove me crazy downshifting to 3rd on hills going 65mph. On one occasion, I was driving about 68 and went down a steep hill and the car increased speed to about 74 and as it went up the next rise, still about 73,it went down to 3rd gear, with a loud clunk, then 4th and finally back to 5th. On the same trip, I backed out of a driveway and turned to go up a steep hill. Car didn't move even though I had the accelerator depressed. Suddenly, with another big clunk, the transmission caught and off I went.
Back to the dealer when I got home, for the third time. It was put on the tester and no bad codes. Service mgr said that they have had many, many complaints and Toyota keeps saying that nothing is wrong. Dealer's opinion is that Toyota had better get their act together and fix this transmission problem.
Bob
It is the transmission control software that is designed to maximize those treasured mpgs (and minimize torque steer issues) that is the bulk of the cause and it would seem past time for Toyota to offer a software fix to those of us that prefer more drivability - probably, at the cost of a few mpg. With several hnudred thousand vehicles out there (between the new Camrys, Sienna, and Avalons) would be a helluva recall/TSB? My car - wouldn't take it in if I knew my 27 mpg would suffer and really think that the car has 'taught' me how IT WANTS to be driven. Kind of the same way that the word processor I use tells you how IT WANTS me to write a letter... Isn't all this silly technology wonderful!
And the 'funny' part of all this, have kept a close eye on the several glowing Avalon (and now Camry) reviews by the consumer and enthusiast mags. and have never read a thing about unusual transmission behavior - actually quite the opposite!
Its our 1 year anniversary of buying our Avalon too, was nice to get a card from our sales rep checking to make sure we were still happy.
At 12,500 miles we haven't experienced the problem yet, but if and when we do, we will really appreciate your having done that. We sure would call now if we were having the problem!
Glad to see you got a case number from Toyota. My wife and I toured the NUMMI plant in Fremont, CA a couple of years ago, and they really seemed to have their act together in many ways. I'm surprised - though do not doubt for a minute - a problem like this exists. It's amazing how technologically involved car design and production has become! Sometimes I long for the days of my '70 Bonneville, but not its 12.5 MPG!.
Thanks,
- Paul
Throughout the process Toyota Service Tech's have been fabulous and gone out of their way to be courteous and supportive including loaners cars (full days shop visits since purchase = 10).
I went into this aware of Toyota's build quality so I want to believe I bought a bad instance of a great car. A bit disappointed and am considering trading it in on an alternative vehicle.
Bob
NWDQBLIZZARD
since you have had your car a while and hadn't (apparently) noted too much objectionable behavior - would suggest to you that you have 'discovered' how to get the tranny to hesitate. In exactly the situtation you outline (coasting dwon to low speeds,) the transmission is holding onto higher gears than necessary, creating the need for multiple gear downshifts (and the hesitation/rpm surge) when you really punch it hard to accelerate. I can get my car to do it as well.
the solution I have found has been to avoid that situation, firmly but gradually reapplying the throttle. The car will actually accelerate more quickly that way - which, as noted by limiteddriver is like a scalded cat. Toyota, rightfully or wrongly, is forcing us to change the way we drive - the new Camrys (5 and 6 speed) and Siennas all exhibit the same sort of behavior. While it is certainly true that some of the other mfgrs. find ways to make all this electronically controlled 'garbage' work more seamlessly, I doubt there is anything 'wrong' with your car - it is working as Toyota has designed it!
Bob
Bob
In all fairness, however, to all these computer systems that we are now having to deal with - the great combination of power and economy that we all enjoy with our Avs is largely because of systems like this and further makes possible these 'safety' systems that most people regard as a 'must have'. Toyota's implementation of electronic control on its transmissions may indeed leave something to be desired - but, there is a reason for it - MPGs.
Back long ago, say in the fifties when Ford starting building more cars with automatic transmissions, many of us learned that if we wanted the transmission to upshift more quickly than otherwise, normal, we could just momentarily lift the accelerator pedal slightly.
There are now lots of indications that this delay/hesitation "symptom" has something to do with the way we "treat" the accelerator pedal.
Suppose, as the driver, I'm looking ahead and see a stop sign coming up, as a rule I would lift the accelerator pedal completely. That should be a "message" to the engine/transaxle ECU that I DO NOT wish to enter cruise mode, rather that I either wish to coastdown to a lower speed or come to a full stop.
But now lets suppose that just by happenstance I keep just the slightest level of pressure on the accelerator pedal during the time I'm coasting down to stop at the upcoming intersection.
Might the ECU just "sit" there in a "what do I do now" stage or would it look to my past driving history for a clue? My guess is that it would "upshift", thinking that my real intent was to enter "cruise mode".
Quite a number of posters have indicated that foot placement seems to help to alleviate this symptom. The higher you place your foot on the accelerator pedal the more foot pressure it will take for a given position of the throttle. Obviously that would make it more difficult to "feather" the throttle, hold the accelerator in a slightly throttle open position.
High foot placement would therefore likely result in less "confusion" on the part of the engine/transaxle ECU.
So, for those of you with these experiences, try this.
When, or while, you are certain you wish to come to a full stop, remove your foot fully from the accelerator pedal. Do the same when you have the need to slow, say in the merging situation, lift the throttle completely until or unless you reach the point wherein you make the decision that actual acceleration is needed.
And let us know....
Cj
it follows, then, that if you want to do the thinking then you would also have no use for things like stability/traction control systems and even ABS because that's is exactly what happens when these system activate, the car is making decisions for you!
I, personally, also have a problem with anything in my car that makes those kind of decisions for me - my Touring not VSC/Trac equipped. Few folks would agree, however.
Maybe it's in the way I drive or possibly in that the car has 'trained' me to operate it smoothly but, after 32k miles have not really found anything terribly annoying (or dangerous) in the way my tranny behaves.
I have a 2000XLS and have been reading this site as I think about a replacement. Think I'll hang on to it until I feel assured that the tranny can be trusted
How would you go about proving what happened, what led to the accident?
And look around here at all the naysayers that would be at least a portion of the trial jury.
Almost all of these engine/transaxle delay/hesitation complaints, if not all of them, involve FWD or front biased AWD vehicles.
When you are coming to a stop, coasting down to a stop, if the roadbed happens to be quite slippery there is a real danger that almost any level of engine compression braking will/can result in complete loss of directional control.
What is, will be, the very first thing you would do, instinctively, if you felt the vehicle was not following the direction set by your stearing inputs?
Lift the accelerator pedal..QUICKLY...!!
If you are very near coming to a full and complete stop and the transaxle has already downshifted into 1st gear the level of engine compression braking could well be high enough to cause the front wheels/tires to completely break traction with the slippery roadbed.
I have been involved in moderately slippery roadbed conditions with a RWD wherein the ABS was so active the vehicle would literally not come to a complete stop. I'm quite sure that had it been a FWD with just a slight level of engine compression braking the ABS would have been ineffective, maybe totally so.
It is in these conditions that the AAA is currently recommending that drivers practice and learn to quickly shift a clutchless FWD vehicle's transaxle into neutral in order to increase the probability of maintaining directional control.
It is hard for me to believe that Toyota would go to these measures to increase the safety factor of their FWD and front biased AWD vehicles and then silently endure the adverse publicity without speaking up with an explanation.
So let's suppose that the insurance industry held a meeting with the automotive industry executives and told them that if they didn't in some way act to reduce or alleviate the number of accidents, injuries and deaths due to FWD engine braking they would go public and start charging a premium for policies involving operation of FWD and/or front biased AWD vehicles.
We all know that BA, Brake Assist, involves monitoring the rate at which the brake pedal is applied and ASSISTING the level of braking if the application rate indicates a PANIC stop.
So what if they are now also monitoring the RATE at which you lift the throttle and then quickly upshifting the transaxle accordingly. A simulation of the AAA recommendation.
And no individual company dare go public absent an agreement amongst all FWD manufacturers.
Look at Honda/Acura, the SH-AWD system specifically, who among us would have ever thought of that marque to the first to break ranks and begin the move away from FWD??
which is precisely why I don't buy your argument - if Toyota had developed a means to minimize the effect of compression braking i.e. keeping the tranny in higher gears and/or programming a delay into lower gear selections - they would be promoting the bejeepers out of it. Why - because then they have that PC nirvana called a 'safety ' feature that nobody else has. Still contend that the main motivations behind the tranny behavior has to do first with maximizing FE and secondly with minimizing torque steer.
As for your continuing contention that FWD is inherently unsafe - that would be a subject for some future debate.
But in a weird way the issue is being publicized.
Look at the online movies touting Honda/Acura's SH-AWD system. Read up on the operation of the new GS300 AWD system. And lastly read up on the 4runner's AWD mode.
It all boils down to these 4 words "VOICE OF THE CUSTOMER". When you lose sight of it, the market will lose sight of you.
I can sympathize with you as my 06 Avalon is doing the same, I've been told by the Service Manager that, "the hesitation is normal", of course I ask, "if those that don't do it, are they abnormal?"... I got no answer.
If you're wondering, I am keeping a comprehensive record and I will be using the lemon law if I get no results after one more trip to the shop. Georgia law states that you have to give the dealership 3 trys to correct the problem.
9119911
Suggest some qualified 3rd party opinions on your specific car, as well as some testimony from other owners with the same complaints, probably along with a TV lawyer - could get expensive.
I am rather disappointed with these kinds of issues for a 30k car. I had a tacoma before this and was so happy with the reliability, now I cringe every time I take the avy out cause I am not sure when the transmission will act up. I called my local toyota dealer..and said this is common for all newer cars...??? Transmission lurch, delay, etc is normal? Does that mean I need to go back to buying pre-2000 cars to get one that goes when you step on the pedal? Or that doesn't dangerously lurch forward when it decides it does want to go? I hope toyota gets their crap together and puts out a recall.
Disconnect the MAF/IAT sensor while the engine is running and then simply reconnect it and restart the engine. For the next few driving cycles the VSC/Trac system will be disabled.
I'm wondering if the engine/transaxle ECU control firmware's "ASL" need/desire to quickly upshift to improve FE and then just as quickly downshift as the need, driver's input, changes sometimes conflicts with the VSC/Trac systems firmware in the need/desire for it to prevent a serious level of engine compression braking.
If the VSC/Trac firmware were to be inactivated for a period of time....
An explanation, of sorts.
Say you're trying to take a tight turn rapidly, at a high acceleration rate. I could readily see the engine/transaxle ECU sending a "message" packet to the VSC/Trac ECU asking "how much torque can I generate safely". The VSC/Trac system must then look at its 3 minutes of recent driving history for any indication of wheel/spin/slippage and likely other parameters.
The result, as many of you already know and have experienced, is a reluctance to allow you to accelerate rapid into a tight turn. Not altogether a bad idea at its core(***) but certainly opens the door for two separate firmware packages, running on two separate ECUs, to become "dead-locked".
*** With FWD or front biased AWD it is often not a good idea to have high engine torque delivered to the front drive wheels while they are also under a heavy traction load due to directional control inputs. With RWD it can often be a bit exciting but not necessarily leading to loss of directional control.
As I have said before these delay/hesitation reports, of certain specificity, seem to be much more predominant with FWD and front biased AWD Toyota/Lexus vehicles.