Ahhh, I see. People who have to do a lot of driving for work usually put a ton of miles on their vehicles. Hopefully you get reimbursed for your mileage or at least deduct it.
High mileage drivers, even with the tax "write-off" never really recoup the depreciation for trading in every 4 years or so with a high mileage vehicle. Even if mileage is remimbursed, rarely does it equal the penalty one must pay at trade-in time.
I also put about 30K/year on my cars. I replace my cars every 3-4 years....when they hit ~100K miles. I'd trade the tax deduction for a car I could keep for 10 years any day.
That sounds about right of course I can only claim work related mileage on not commuting miles, I lose about 55-60% of my miles to that. After that, I get about 28% of $0.35 (or whatever the rate this year is) or about a dime a mile.
Looking at my tax return from last year and I had 23,482 total miles. Of those 13440 were my commute and the remaining 10042 were service call related.
This years total is going to be just shy of 27K, again with about 13160 for the commute. Which means about half of my miles are service call related.
My commute is 28 miles each way times 47 weeks this year. That takes into consideration three weeks vacation and two weeks of training.
the county gives me $0.38 per mile. From what I have seen, that just about covers costs as well as depreciation of the vehicle, so I am satisfied with it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My 1954 Hudson Super Wasp just turned over 48k, original miles. Lets see a plastic japmobile make it that long {little old lady bought it new in 5/54} Should get lots of response from you foreign lovers out there. If you look hard enough, GM, Ford, D/C DO make reliable vehicles... But everyone thinks [non-permissible content removed]/European/etc are better just because they were built overseas. Ain't necessarily so?????
Well I suppose every carmaker makes a great vehicle. And my pleas to Ford, GM and DC to build a four door sedan with 6 or 8 cylinders four wheel independent suspension and an honest to goodness manual tranny have fallen on deaf ears for the most part.
They may be coming around, so we shall see. Until then, I have to look at other carmakers who still build such cars.
Have fun with your '54
TB Used to be a GM fan but they stopped making cars for me.
The local university. We have lots of international students. They sell their beaters before they go home. You can pick up a very used Subaru for less than $1000. The interiors are usually trashed but they run good.
It's also a good place to sell beaters. My sister lives in the burbs of Columbus Ohio, and should have no problem unloading her 1993 Saturn SL2 at Ohio State.
is military bases. If you can get on one. Alot of people PCSing will sell vehicles, and personal belongings for next to nothing. I remember one time in Iceland I went to the store on the base and their sat a 1989 subaru with a sign that said FREE on it! I drove that car for one year with no mechanical trouble! Still miss it till this day. When I left Iceland I parked it back in the same spot and put another FREE sign back on the window. I hope the next guy passes on the good luck!
Yup. When I was stationed at Ellsworth AFB, SD back in the mid-late '90s, I bought a '77 Corolla off a PCSing friend for $50 (it was cheaper than snow tires for my Integra.) I just used it around the base. When I sold it prior to my separation from the service, it was for $50 to another airman. Last I heard (about a year ago) it was still being passed on from airman to airman, $50 each time. When I bought it, the (5 digit) odometer had spun twice, maybe three times (the original owner, then a master sergeant, couldn't remember...she had bought it new) and I have no doubt it's still going. I think every military installation has one or two of these "base cars."
In 1995 or so, my dad walked into a dealership and was looking at a '91 Isuzu P/U space cab, 140k miles, 4wd, 5MT, fully loaded(well as fully loaded as they came back then except the A/T)... The dealer was asking about 10k for it. He offered them 4k cash, and about 5 minutes later, they said he had a deal... so he went for a test drive in it... =oP...
Needless to say, he didn't expect to buy it then, and simply offered what he was willing to pay at the time... at the beginning of this year, it had about 270k miles, had a new timing belt, battery, fuel pump, radio(died), new I/P bulbs(burnt out), a salvaged P/W switch, and rebuilt "auto" hubs on the front tires... oh yeah, clutch, exhaust, etc.
He traded it in and I think got a grand in trade... =o) so that's not too bad. I honestly think it's a balance between luck and experience... but it's just me.
There are a lot of people planning to trade in their 1990-1996s on a newer model. More likely, they won't get much more than $1000-1500 on trade. Might want to let them know that you are looking for "reliable transportation".
A lot of times they want to get rid of the old car but don't want the hassles of placing an ad and getting calls all hours of the night. Especially if they are older people and they live in a rough neighborhood.
Lot of older relatives will be giving up their cars in the next few years. Let them know that you will be looking for another vehicle. They won't drive you for top dollar.
The key thing is letting people know that you are looking. Got a friend with a 1992 Crown Vic all leather in mint condition with 120k miles. He's buying an Explorer in April. Looking to unload the old boat in March. Told him that I would like first crack when he sells it.
Hi, all. I've skimmed this entire discussion and noted a couple of warnings about old cars with low mileage (engine not getting warmed up, dry rot). Do diesel-powered cars fare better under these circumstances than gas-powered ones?
We have an '87 Chevy Nova that we'd like to sell, but there are two wrinkles: 1. We took the plates and insurance off of it and transferred them to another car, so the car can't be test driven. The TMV I got from this site says it's worth $594 in average condition and $523 in rough condition if sold privately, so it doesn't seem worthwhile to get plates and insurance just to sell the car. 2. When we bought the car (used, from a private seller), the seller didn't know the exact odometer reading off the top of his head, so he entered the correct tens-of-thousands and thousands digits in the appropriate spot on one of the forms, and made up numbers for the rest. Being a perfectionist and not realizing what I was doing, I checked the box that said "not the actual mileage," and now that's what it says on the title.
So how should we go about selling this car?
By the way, I offered to donate it to our local chapter of the American Lung Association, but they said they take only 1991 and newer cars.
I don't really see the NAM on the title being a big deal on a $500 car.
As for the test drive thing, I guess you could take the plates off of the test driver's car and use them for a short time or roll the dice and test drive without a plate and hope the police don't notice.
..instead of courting jail, hop down to the dmv/sec state and for $20 or so, get 10-day paper tags and then LOSE that puppy to the first guy who knows his cars. No tags is just silly, and the kiss of death with many buyers. -m
Unfortunately for us, the State of New York does not issue paper temporary tags. (Maybe our DMV does issue special tags for transporting a car, but then we'd have to lie and say we're going to drive it somewhere.) Furthermore, we'd have to take out insurance on the car before getting the regular tags/plates, since that's a requirement for getting them. But we do have assets that need protecting from a possible judgment, so we'd do that anyway.
That also eliminates the option of illegally putting another car's plates on it, or driving it without plates. Although not long ago I did see a car being driven around here without plates or a temporary paper tag from another state. It's true: There's never a cop around when you need one!
Save yourself the hassle. Sell the car as is, where is, for $400 (cash), and let the buyer take the risk. He can start it up, make sure it runs, etc., but no test drive.
I agree, just tell them for $400 what do they want, a warranty? I sold a car last week for $400 and had no test drive. At that low a price, as long as it starts, it should sell.
If you happen to have a "assisted living" community near you you can always find some really nice old cars (better than beaters)in the parking lot with for sale signs on them. Folks take up residency in these places while still "mobile" and for economic or health reasons must later give up driving.
Beautiful 15 or 20 year old vehicles that show lots of TLC and here in Florida rust free too. Last week I bought a 1971 Chevelle H.T. 80K miles for $600.00, original paint & pristine interior. I have rejected offers of $5,000 already !
Failing that, you can look in rural communities as well . . . I've had lots of luck just driving through small towns, you can usually find some nice older plain-Janes.
Still, my favorite beater-buying strategy is just to look for cars that nobody else wants . . . like my $600 '88 Escort that will not die.
Another place to find "beaters" is perusing the local "used" car lots. One of our local used car dealers has beaters on the back part of the lot (actually they're in a vacant field adjacent to the lot). Most are listed under $1000. That's how I found my current commuter. My old 92 Acclaim had a leaky heater core and as I was tired of driving a car with no heat (December 2002) I started looking around. Happenned to stop in at this dealer on a Saturday afternoon and found a 1990 Acclaim 2.5L/3 speed with only 110k miles. Only problem was peeling paint on the roof. I merely asked about it and he dropped the price from $400 to $300. I told him if he could get it started and mechanically it checked out he had a deal. Short story - they got it fired up and after a few minutes it ran fine. Test drove it - everything seemed okay except slight pull to the right. Gave him $100 down and the balance the following Saturday. I ended up putting another $500 in maintenance, tags and insurance but it has run like a champ for 35K miles. It looks like hell but underneath the hood is a fine running engine and it does the job I need it to do - transport me to and from work. Plus it has heat, working A/C, AM/FM ,the interior is in decent shape and I'm averaging about 25 mpg to boot. Not bad for a $300 beater. With my 2nd daughter wanting a vehicle I found another Acclaim for $600 - has peeling paint but the interior is in decent condition. I haven't test drove it yet so I'm not sure how good this deal may be yet. Waiting until I have sufficient funds available.
Say what you want about K-cars and their derivatives (commonly known as EEK'S - Every Extended K Car) I have found them to be very reliable. (The 92 Acclaim was bought new and had 302K miles when I finally parked it). Plus I had a 1986 Chrysler LeBaron that went 273K before I had to trade it (needed a minivan - growing family).
I had a 89 Dodge Daytona I bought new, and put 151K miles on it. I gave it to my brother in law, and he put another 91K on it. It wasn't the engine or tranny that went (it was a 2.5L/5spd), but the suspension had become too worn out that he didn't want to fix it. That 2.5L 4 cyl was a great engine, not a lot of power, but ran like a champ.
I replaced it with a 94 Spirit with a 3.0l V6. Put 147k on it, but got tired of the oil leaks that I could never seem to fix.
Both my wife and I owned Reliants in our mid-20s, and we noted that you just could NOT kill those cars, not even with the worst sort of systematic abuse.
I ran mine to 168K without ever once being stranded on the roadside. It had an idle-speed problem in cold weather (it idled at about 1800 RPM) but apart from that, it still even looked good! I rarely washed it, routinely went 8000 miles between oil changes, left it parked outside in blizzards, etc., etc.
As much as I would love to join this love fest on the Reliant, I have a different memory.
I got 192K on my Reliant before the front steering arms went out (and the dealer wanted $1400 for the repair). I was NOT unsatisfied with how long the vehicle lasted.
However, the repairs to keep the car on the road was another issue. No engine or transmission problems but a ton of the $200-300 repairs, maybe 5 or 6 per year driving 18k miles a year.
I must have replaced the valve cover gaskets 8-10 times, the CV boots and seals a number of times. Finding a good mechanic to fix the beast was a problem. In general, the Chysler dealerships were the WORST to deal with and their work was the poorest.
In its defense, the car did drive well and the car had a lot of power. But the cost of repairs and maintenance ...
What finally forced me to park the 92 Acclaim was the dang heater core developing a leak which would have been to costly to repair. I think it was over $500 in labor charges not including disconnecting the A/C. In fact mine had an oil leak at the base of the dipstick tube - lost a quart every 1500 miles, had a film of oil everywhere, and was developing a headgasket problem but yet it still went like a tank. Seems the K-cars and related vehicles were pretty reliable - it's just that the suspension components and other stuff could nickel and dime you to death. I still wouldn't hesitate to buy another "beater" such as a k-car - just need to give it a thorough inspection so I know what I'm getting into.
I guess my conclusion is that I would RATHER by an Olds or Buick beater and take my chances than buying another Chrysler product. Just as durable but without a lot of the problems.
The last year for Spirit/Acclaims was 1995 and I've seen some for sale as low as $1500. Seems like they got the K car improved, then dropped it for more buggy cars.
Trust me, I know what you're talking about. Everybody else who ever owned one looks at me weird when I talk about my old K. It's been my experience that Chryslers are "all or nothing" cars: if they're built well, they'll outlast anything; if not, they'll eat your soul.
The K-cars were durable to the extent that if you were willing to make the equivalent of a car payment every other month, the car would run forever.
However, since I've made the switch over from Chrysler vehicles, I am no longer a "good drinking buddy" with my mechanic, if you catch my drift.
What I found peculiar with the K Cars is the variability. My parents had one that was a "Hail Mary" car - three Hail Marys and maybe, it would hit 60. However, I was getting pulled over for speeding left and right in mine.
was the last car payment that I EVER made in my life! $132.84 in January 1986. Bought the car in 1985 for $6,800 from Avis Rent-a-car in Richmond, VA.
After years of driving a Chevette, I was booked doing 70 mph in a 50 zone. State trooper pulled me over in Lancaster Co., VA. Asked me if I knew what I was doing. Failed to tell him that I was doing a lot faster than he clocked me at.
I should mention that the 92 Acclaim had over 302,000 miles when I took it off the road. We purchased it new in Nov 1992 with 4 miles on the odometer. During that 302K miles it suffered only one major failure. The tranny gave out at 191K miles (clutch packs wore out) - replaced with a 3 speed from a 1986 Lancer and went another 110K miles. Otherwise it was never in the shop except for regular maintenance. Based on my experience with this car, the previous 1986 LeBaron GTS (273K miles) and my current K car (1990 Acclaim) I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one. In the year I have owned the 1990 I have only put roughly $800 into it and all of that was maintenance or wear items (tuneup, belts, filters, new tires, struts) - comes to a whopping $67 a month. Hardly a car payment at todays new car prices.......
I still see quite a few K car variants running around - at least in my area.
And I'm sure you can find any model vehicle that has some that run forever and others that need alot of TLC........
"And I'm sure you can find any model vehicle that has some that run forever and others that need alot of TLC........"
Exactly. I'll be that, 15 years from now, there will be at least one Kia Rio out there with 280k miles, having functioned flawlessly the whole way. Probably not three, but at least one.
In Chicagoland, it seems like the only ChryCo cars over 10 years old still running are Acclaim/Spirits or minivans. Also, a few early LH cars are hanging in there.
But the most popular "beater" these days is any 89-94 GM car that has the 3800 V6 in it. Go to any low income hood and count them. It's like it's 1992 again.
And a fine choice, too. Thing about those GMs is: The engines are really stout. The automatics are excellent, and they usually last. And finally, the HVAC system tends to give less trouble than Chrysler and Ford. So odds are, the three most expensive systems are not likely to give more than occasional trouble. As for styling, fun-to drive, seat comfort, build quality, etc...
I understand that it is much cheaper to drive a beater car because of many reasons. My question is this: would it still be cheaper to keep a used car, say my '90 Accord EX, if the body is in good shape but it needed a new transmission and engine down the road? My point is if I like the vehicle and want to stay away from a new car payment, wouldn't it still be worth it to replace these two major components? Opinions or comments, please.
OK - so you go out and buy a new Accord LX for maybe $18-20k with tax and fees.
You'd have a payment of ~350/month over 5 years or so (depending on credit and life of loan)
So if your old car needs a new transmission at maybe $2000 that would be just under six months of new car payments.
Similar logic hold for the engine. Rebuilt engine for ~ $2000.
So for one years worth of payments you get a rebuilt transmission and engine. Or another way to look at it is that for every year you keep the beater you could spend up to $4000 and still come out ahead. If you spend less than that (which is very probable) then it's all gravy.
Your post mentions that the car doesn't even need a trans or an engine yet. Maybe they'll go on for a few more years - who knows.
You tell me - Is it worth it to keep the beater.
Also worth considering are the lower cost of insurance and registration tags for the old beater versus a new car.
You need to weigh those factors against the 'pain-in-the-butt' factor of dealing with older car problems and the enjoyment of owning a new car. Is it worth it to you ?
Just purchased a 2004 Saab 9-3 for a sales manager. The car has been in the shop for 15 days with problems with the various sensors. Sure, the car is under warranty and we do generally get a loaner.
Have a 2003 Intrepid SE. Had it put into the shop for two days to replace the gas tank.
And those are not as bad as the '02 Volvo that I justsent to the auctions. That one was out for a couple of weeks with tranny problems.
My '96 beater has been in the shop one day in the past four years and that is only because the idiot who drives it kept delaying the schedules tune ups.
In 20 years of old cars (mostly models rated low by Consumer Reports), I have never replaced a tranny and engine. In fact, I think about $600 has been my largest repair. Granted, I spend more than the average bear on oil changes and all that stuff. And I have some pretty good people helping me pick the beaters. That is, no "buy here, pay here" lots.
Besides, if my car in the shop, Enterprise rents cars for about $20 per day and they are five minutes away.
The residual value on your 90 Accord isn't going to dip much lower than it is right now. Any mileage you can drive without major repairs is "free" mileage.
Now would be a good time to start saving for the next vehicle. Take the money you would be paying on a car loan and deposit it into a separate bank account. 1. This will allow you to see if the vehicle payment will strain you without actually having a loan and 2. You will save up some cash for a downpayment or 3. You will have money for that major repair.
Just to inject some common sense into the beater crowd let me tell you about my used car experiences:
I have owned lots of cars. I usually bought em used to keep the costs down. I never bought trashed cars, only 5 to 8 year old cars in good shape with maybe 80 to 110 k miles on em. Where I live in Southern California, rust is never a problem. I wouldn't really classify any of the cars that I have owned as true beaters. They were good cars with a few miles on em.
Well, I had really good luck with them all. I averaged expenses including interest/depreciation/repairs etc of less than $100 a month to drive maybe 18-20k miles a year(Try to lease a car anywhere close to that !).
But then my last faux-beater was a 1995 Buick Riviera. I bought it with ~100 k on the speedometer and kept it for a total of 16 months. This was the cleanest most luxurious car that I have ever owned and I loved driving it. However, If you drive lots of used cars you're bound to run into a car like this sooner or later.
The car just wasn't reliable. I put over $5500 in repairs in it in 16 months including a rebuilt engine. I bought the car from a retail lot and sold it to a private party. So between the repairs and the spread from retail to private party I took a real bath. This car - by far- was the most expensive car per month to drive that I have ever owned. I couldn't take it anymore so I sold it and bought a new car. I always could afford a newer car but I just didn't want to part with the money. Also If you trade cars all of the time older cars don't depreciate so much so it's more affordable.
At least at this stage my thinking is that - I am done with older cars. I did have very good luck with older cars for quite a long period but the Buick did me in. If I buy another used car in the future it will be a car that's only a year or two old.
Before you go whole hog on the beater plan just think about what your time and peace of mind are worth when you drive a beater. For me, I am now unwilling to work much on my car or to pay someone else to do it for me. I think, even if you save money, that there is a limit to how much hasstle anyone will put up in a car. Like Clint E says - A mans got to know his limits.
It's true - new cars can break too - as Jlawrence01 points out in his post. However, in general (Saabs aside) newer cars have much fewer problems than older cars.
I still have another older car - a 19 year old Corvette that I drive on the weekends. But I need another newer car that I can rely on.
New cars seem to take several trips to the dealership to get them right. I have a friend who has been at the dealership with a Honda Civic with paint issues that she is *trying* to get resolved. If I had to lay the kind of $$$ that some of these cars (out of MY pocket) cost and having all of these problems, I would be walking into dealerships in a homicidal rage.
BTW, dealing with the Chicago Volvo dealerships were FAR WORST than the Saab.
Personally, I like to raise my own beaters. Buy a car that is 4 or 5 years old and wear it out and drive it until the boss asks me to park it down the street. That way, you tend to avoid some of the worst abuse that you get when you buy a car with 100k miles. I am not above buying someone else's but if I can avoid it, I will.
What you have to do, IMHO, is set some kind of limit on what you are going to spend. If I am going to pay under $2k for a car, I ditch it when the engine blows or the tranny goes out. However, I never had it happen ... yet.
I would have a change of heart if I ever "positively, absolutely had to be there" - i.e. cardiac surgeon, etc. However, I have any number of back-ups - train, bus, and the many new car owners that I am constantly driving to the dealership and who owe me a favor - that I am never stranded. And I always have teh 3rd car - Enterprise if I get into a jam.
"I understand that it is much cheaper to drive a beater car because of many reasons."
I disagree. The best deals can be had in the region of $5-7k purchase price and NOT in the nether regions of the market. 2001 Prizm, 30-40k miles, $6k appears to be the going rate. That's the bottom dollar for people with good credit and good driving record.
You CAN drive beaters, but you'd better be really lucky. Buying car for $1,500 and then dealing with them can drain your bank account mighty quickly.
Stein13: I re-read your article, which I generally agree with and thought made alot of sense.
However I'll make the following observations:
The Geo/Chevy Prism may indeed be a great value but that car has to have the most uncomfortable seats of any car made.
Your analysis made comparisons between a newer Prism and older Accord indicating that the Prism was the better value. In terms of dollars that you'll spend the Prism will indeed be less money however the prism is a compact car and the Accord is a midsize/fullsize car. So based on anything except your dollar outlay the comparison is an apples to oranges comparison and not really useful. What would be more interesting (to me) would be to compare the economics of an older Accord versus a newer <Your midsize car name here> or an newer Prism versus a older <Your compact car name here>.
When you take the total expenditure for a car which includes depreciation, repairs-maint, interest on your outlay, insurance, registration, and gasoline, then the money that is saved on driving older cars is maybe 20 percent of the total outlay. Not chump change but not tremendous savings either. My opinion on driving older cars has changed in the last year or two.
"that car has to have the most uncomfortable seats of any car made."
They can't be any worse than the seats in my 02 Saturn SL. Which will be a fantastic beater in a few years. Wait a minute, I paid 7500 for it last year, its probably not even worth 6K now, so its already a beater!
Thats the catch - the 5-7K beaters are nothing special. You are not going to get Accord comfort from a Prism or a Saturn or an Escort. But hey, seat cushions are 15$ and seat covers are 30 or so bucks. Turn up the stereo to cover the road noise. Get a 5 speed if you want to have a little fun.
steine has a good point. Unless you do your own repairs and/or are lucky, a 1500 beater could easily cost you another grand or two in repairs and maintenance every year. With labor rates around 90/hour its almost impossible to get any repair done at a shop for under $200 and most seem to be in the $350-$500 range. Im talking alternators, starters, rotors all around, struts, oil/cooolant leaks, converter or exhaust replacement, timing belt or chain replacement, computer/sensor failures - these are the kind of things that a 1500 beater is likely going to need. A 3 year payment on a 6000 loan at 8% is only 188/month, or 2256/year. And the odds are that Prism wont need anything but routine maintenance during that time.
>> these are the kind of things that a 1500 beater is likely going to need. A 3 year payment on a 6000 loan at 8% is only 188/month, or 2256/year. And the odds are that Prism wont need anything but routine maintenance during that time. <<
Ah, yes. Back to the new vs. used or newer used versus the beater argument or however you want to phrase it. I am pretty much convinced that in the long term, you are better off spending less money on a sled and placing the difference in appreciating assets.
The person who buys new(er) guarantees a larger outlay up front and possibly payments. In addition, they pay more sales tax, property tax, ad valorem and any other tax the governor decides to impose. They pay higher insurance costs. Those are guaranteed outflows.
The ONLY upside is that they will pay less in repair and maintenance expense. I say LESS because even "PERFECT" cars like Hondas, Toyotas, and Chevy Novas need maintenance.
For years, people have been telling me that I will be buying a new tranny or a new engine or make some huge repair expense. I guess that the transmission gods are shining on me as I am still waiting for the mythical repair. If I do get one, I probably end up sending the sled to the crusher for readjustment and start over with the next older car. Meanwhile, that you have tied up on your purchase is depreciating while I have to figure out where to invest the money I have saved.
Do realize that if calamity strikes - something like a Mack Truck hits both of our cars, a lot of your costs are sunk and are unrecoverable whereas I am out a lot less.
My way is not the only way. It works for me. I get the opportunity to drive a variety of vehicles at work which satisfies my need to drive something besides the "grandma mobile" periodically. Also, I have been know to *gasp* jump on a bus or L-train or ride the shoe-leather express to get around.
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Car_man
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I also put about 30K/year on my cars. I replace my cars every 3-4 years....when they hit ~100K miles. I'd trade the tax deduction for a car I could keep for 10 years any day.
Looking at my tax return from last year and I had 23,482 total miles. Of those 13440 were my commute and the remaining 10042 were service call related.
This years total is going to be just shy of 27K, again with about 13160 for the commute. Which means about half of my miles are service call related.
My commute is 28 miles each way times 47 weeks this year. That takes into consideration three weeks vacation and two weeks of training.
FWIW,
TB
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They may be coming around, so we shall see. Until then, I have to look at other carmakers who still build such cars.
Have fun with your '54
TB
Used to be a GM fan but they stopped making cars for me.
It's also a good place to sell beaters. My sister lives in the burbs of Columbus Ohio, and should have no problem unloading her 1993 Saturn SL2 at Ohio State.
kcram
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Needless to say, he didn't expect to buy it then, and simply offered what he was willing to pay at the time... at the beginning of this year, it had about 270k miles, had a new timing belt, battery, fuel pump, radio(died), new I/P bulbs(burnt out), a salvaged P/W switch, and rebuilt "auto" hubs on the front tires... oh yeah, clutch, exhaust, etc.
He traded it in and I think got a grand in trade... =o) so that's not too bad. I honestly think it's a balance between luck and experience... but it's just me.
Might want to let them know that you are looking for "reliable transportation".
A lot of times they want to get rid of the old car but don't want the hassles of placing an ad and getting calls all hours of the night. Especially if they are older people and they live in a rough neighborhood.
Lot of older relatives will be giving up their cars in the next few years. Let them know that you will be looking for another vehicle. They won't drive you for top dollar.
The key thing is letting people know that you are looking. Got a friend with a 1992 Crown Vic all leather in mint condition with 120k miles. He's buying an Explorer in April. Looking to unload the old boat in March. Told him that I would like first crack when he sells it.
We have an '87 Chevy Nova that we'd like to sell, but there are two wrinkles: 1. We took the plates and insurance off of it and transferred them to another car, so the car can't be test driven. The TMV I got from this site says it's worth $594 in average condition and $523 in rough condition if sold privately, so it doesn't seem worthwhile to get plates and insurance just to sell the car. 2. When we bought the car (used, from a private seller), the seller didn't know the exact odometer reading off the top of his head, so he entered the correct tens-of-thousands and thousands digits in the appropriate spot on one of the forms, and made up numbers for the rest. Being a perfectionist and not realizing what I was doing, I checked the box that said "not the actual mileage," and now that's what it says on the title.
So how should we go about selling this car?
By the way, I offered to donate it to our local chapter of the American Lung Association, but they said they take only 1991 and newer cars.
As for the test drive thing, I guess you could take the plates off of the test driver's car and use them for a short time or roll the dice and test drive without a plate and hope the police don't notice.
No tags is just silly, and the kiss of death with many buyers. -m
That also eliminates the option of illegally putting another car's plates on it, or driving it without plates. Although not long ago I did see a car being driven around here without plates or a temporary paper tag from another state. It's true: There's never a cop around when you need one!
Beautiful 15 or 20 year old vehicles that show lots of TLC and here in Florida rust free too.
Last week I bought a 1971 Chevelle H.T. 80K miles for $600.00, original paint & pristine interior. I have rejected offers of $5,000 already !
HUD
Still, my favorite beater-buying strategy is just to look for cars that nobody else wants . . . like my $600 '88 Escort that will not die.
Say what you want about K-cars and their derivatives (commonly known as EEK'S - Every Extended K Car) I have found them to be very reliable. (The 92 Acclaim was bought new and had 302K miles when I finally parked it). Plus I had a 1986 Chrysler LeBaron that went 273K before I had to trade it (needed a minivan - growing family).
Doug D
I replaced it with a 94 Spirit with a 3.0l V6. Put 147k on it, but got tired of the oil leaks that I could never seem to fix.
I ran mine to 168K without ever once being stranded on the roadside. It had an idle-speed problem in cold weather (it idled at about 1800 RPM) but apart from that, it still even looked good! I rarely washed it, routinely went 8000 miles between oil changes, left it parked outside in blizzards, etc., etc.
Kinda miss that car.
I got 192K on my Reliant before the front steering arms went out (and the dealer wanted $1400 for the repair). I was NOT unsatisfied with how long the vehicle lasted.
However, the repairs to keep the car on the road was another issue. No engine or transmission problems but a ton of the $200-300 repairs, maybe 5 or 6 per year driving 18k miles a year.
I must have replaced the valve cover gaskets 8-10 times, the CV boots and seals a number of times. Finding a good mechanic to fix the beast was a problem. In general, the Chysler dealerships were the WORST to deal with and their work was the poorest.
In its defense, the car did drive well and the car had a lot of power. But the cost of repairs and maintenance ...
Durable if boring drives.
However, since I've made the switch over from Chrysler vehicles, I am no longer a "good drinking buddy" with my mechanic, if you catch my drift.
What I found peculiar with the K Cars is the variability. My parents had one that was a "Hail Mary" car - three Hail Marys and maybe, it would hit 60. However, I was getting pulled over for speeding left and right in mine.
I also had one of the "hot-rod" Ks. It felt way stronger than the 100 or so HP they claimed.
After years of driving a Chevette, I was booked doing 70 mph in a 50 zone. State trooper pulled me over in Lancaster Co., VA. Asked me if I knew what I was doing. Failed to tell him that I was doing a lot faster than he clocked me at.
I still see quite a few K car variants running around - at least in my area.
And I'm sure you can find any model vehicle that has some that run forever and others that need alot of TLC........
Exactly. I'll be that, 15 years from now, there will be at least one Kia Rio out there with 280k miles, having functioned flawlessly the whole way. Probably not three, but at least one.
But the most popular "beater" these days is any 89-94 GM car that has the 3800 V6 in it. Go to any low income hood and count them. It's like it's 1992 again.
Thing about those GMs is: The engines are really stout. The automatics are excellent, and they usually last. And finally, the HVAC system tends to give less trouble than Chrysler and Ford.
So odds are, the three most expensive systems are not likely to give more than occasional trouble.
As for styling, fun-to drive, seat comfort, build quality, etc...
Well, Audi's gotta have the edge somewhere, nein?
-Mathias
OK - so you go out and buy a new Accord LX for maybe $18-20k with tax and fees.
You'd have a payment of ~350/month over 5 years or so (depending on credit and life of loan)
So if your old car needs a new transmission at maybe $2000 that would be just under six months of new car payments.
Similar logic hold for the engine. Rebuilt engine for ~ $2000.
So for one years worth of payments you get a rebuilt transmission and engine. Or another way to look at it is that for every year you keep the beater you could spend up to $4000 and still come out ahead. If you spend less than that (which is very probable) then it's all gravy.
Your post mentions that the car doesn't even need a trans or an engine yet. Maybe they'll go on for a few more years - who knows.
You tell me - Is it worth it to keep the beater.
Also worth considering are the lower cost of insurance and registration tags for the old beater versus a new car.
You need to weigh those factors against the 'pain-in-the-butt' factor of dealing with older car problems and the enjoyment of owning a new car. Is it worth it to you ?
Have a 2003 Intrepid SE. Had it put into the shop for two days to replace the gas tank.
And those are not as bad as the '02 Volvo that I justsent to the auctions. That one was out for a couple of weeks with tranny problems.
My '96 beater has been in the shop one day in the past four years and that is only because the idiot who drives it kept delaying the schedules tune ups.
In 20 years of old cars (mostly models rated low by Consumer Reports), I have never replaced a tranny and engine. In fact, I think about $600 has been my largest repair. Granted, I spend more than the average bear on oil changes and all that stuff. And I have some pretty good people helping me pick the beaters. That is, no "buy here, pay here" lots.
Besides, if my car in the shop, Enterprise rents cars for about $20 per day and they are five minutes away.
Now would be a good time to start saving for the next vehicle. Take the money you would be paying on a car loan and deposit it into a separate bank account. 1. This will allow you to see if the vehicle payment will strain you without actually having a loan and 2. You will save up some cash for a downpayment or 3. You will have money for that major repair.
I have owned lots of cars. I usually bought em used to keep the costs down. I never bought trashed cars, only 5 to 8 year old cars in good shape with maybe 80 to 110 k miles on em. Where I live in Southern California, rust is never a problem. I wouldn't really classify any of the cars that I have owned as true beaters. They were good cars with a few miles on em.
Well, I had really good luck with them all. I averaged expenses including interest/depreciation/repairs etc of less than $100 a month to drive maybe 18-20k miles a year(Try to lease a car anywhere close to that !).
But then my last faux-beater was a 1995 Buick Riviera. I bought it with ~100 k on the speedometer and kept it for a total of 16 months. This was the cleanest most luxurious car that I have ever owned and I loved driving it. However, If you drive lots of used cars you're bound to run into a car like this sooner or later.
The car just wasn't reliable. I put over $5500 in repairs in it in 16 months including a rebuilt engine. I bought the car from a retail lot and sold it to a private party. So between the repairs and the spread from retail to private party I took a real bath. This car - by far- was the most expensive car per month to drive that I have ever owned. I couldn't take it anymore so I sold it and bought a new car. I always could afford a newer car but I just didn't want to part with the money. Also If you trade cars all of the time older cars don't depreciate so much so it's more affordable.
At least at this stage my thinking is that - I am done with older cars. I did have very good luck with older cars for quite a long period but the Buick did me in. If I buy another used car in the future it will be a car that's only a year or two old.
Before you go whole hog on the beater plan just think about what your time and peace of mind are worth when you drive a beater. For me, I am now unwilling to work much on my car or to pay someone else to do it for me. I think, even if you save money, that there is a limit to how much hasstle anyone will put up in a car. Like Clint E says - A mans got to know his limits.
It's true - new cars can break too - as Jlawrence01 points out in his post. However, in general (Saabs aside) newer cars have much fewer problems than older cars.
I still have another older car - a 19 year old Corvette that I drive on the weekends. But I need another newer car that I can rely on.
BTW, dealing with the Chicago Volvo dealerships were FAR WORST than the Saab.
Personally, I like to raise my own beaters. Buy a car that is 4 or 5 years old and wear it out and drive it until the boss asks me to park it down the street. That way, you tend to avoid some of the worst abuse that you get when you buy a car with 100k miles. I am not above buying someone else's but if I can avoid it, I will.
What you have to do, IMHO, is set some kind of limit on what you are going to spend. If I am going to pay under $2k for a car, I ditch it when the engine blows or the tranny goes out. However, I never had it happen ... yet.
I would have a change of heart if I ever "positively, absolutely had to be there" - i.e. cardiac surgeon, etc. However, I have any number of back-ups - train, bus, and the many new car owners that I am constantly driving to the dealership and who owe me a favor - that I am never stranded. And I always have teh 3rd car - Enterprise if I get into a jam.
I disagree. The best deals can be had in the region of $5-7k purchase price and NOT in the nether regions of the market. 2001 Prizm, 30-40k miles, $6k appears to be the going rate. That's the bottom dollar for people with good credit and good driving record.
You CAN drive beaters, but you'd better be really lucky. Buying car for $1,500 and then dealing with them can drain your bank account mighty quickly.
For more than you wanted to read on the subject, please peruse You can check out my thoughts on car buying at
http://www.msu.edu/~steine13/auto.htm
-Mathias
However I'll make the following observations:
The Geo/Chevy Prism may indeed be a great value but that car has to have the most uncomfortable seats of any car made.
Your analysis made comparisons between a newer Prism and older Accord indicating that the Prism was the better value. In terms of dollars that you'll spend the Prism will indeed be less money however the prism is a compact car and the Accord is a midsize/fullsize car. So based on anything except your dollar outlay the comparison is an apples to oranges comparison and not really useful. What would be more interesting (to me) would be to compare the economics of an older Accord versus a newer <Your midsize car name here> or an newer Prism versus a older <Your compact car name here>.
When you take the total expenditure for a car which includes depreciation, repairs-maint, interest on your outlay, insurance, registration, and gasoline, then the money that is saved on driving older cars is maybe 20 percent of the total outlay. Not chump change but not tremendous savings either. My opinion on driving older cars has changed in the last year or two.
They can't be any worse than the seats in my 02 Saturn SL. Which will be a fantastic beater in a few years. Wait a minute, I paid 7500 for it last year, its probably not even worth 6K now, so its already a beater!
Thats the catch - the 5-7K beaters are nothing special. You are not going to get Accord comfort from a Prism or a Saturn or an Escort. But hey, seat cushions are 15$ and seat covers are 30 or so bucks. Turn up the stereo to cover the road noise. Get a 5 speed if you want to have a little fun.
steine has a good point. Unless you do your own repairs and/or are lucky, a 1500 beater could easily cost you another grand or two in repairs and maintenance every year. With labor rates around 90/hour its almost impossible to get any repair done at a shop for under $200 and most seem to be in the $350-$500 range. Im talking alternators, starters, rotors all around, struts, oil/cooolant leaks, converter or exhaust replacement, timing belt or chain replacement, computer/sensor failures - these are the kind of things that a 1500 beater is likely going to need. A 3 year payment on a 6000 loan at 8% is only 188/month, or 2256/year. And the odds are that Prism wont need anything but routine maintenance during that time.
Ah, yes. Back to the new vs. used or newer used versus the beater argument or however you want to phrase it. I am pretty much convinced that in the long term, you are better off spending less money on a sled and placing the difference in appreciating assets.
The person who buys new(er) guarantees a larger outlay up front and possibly payments. In addition, they pay more sales tax, property tax, ad valorem and any other tax the governor decides to impose. They pay higher insurance costs. Those are guaranteed outflows.
The ONLY upside is that they will pay less in repair and maintenance expense. I say LESS because even "PERFECT" cars like Hondas, Toyotas, and Chevy Novas need maintenance.
For years, people have been telling me that I will be buying a new tranny or a new engine or make some huge repair expense. I guess that the transmission gods are shining on me as I am still waiting for the mythical repair. If I do get one, I probably end up sending the sled to the crusher for readjustment and start over with the next older car. Meanwhile, that you have tied up on your purchase is depreciating while I have to figure out where to invest the money I have saved.
Do realize that if calamity strikes - something like a Mack Truck hits both of our cars, a lot of your costs are sunk and are unrecoverable whereas I am out a lot less.
My way is not the only way. It works for me. I get the opportunity to drive a variety of vehicles at work which satisfies my need to drive something besides the "grandma mobile" periodically. Also, I have been know to *gasp* jump on a bus or L-train or ride the shoe-leather express to get around.