Who can identify this 1910 or 1911 FIAT? Maybe a 'modded' S.74?

autonarr

It resembles the S.74 (14.3liter), but I have never seen them with large exhaust systems. FIAT used this kind of exhaust pipes on the S.76 (28,3ltr) record car in 1911.
Is it a 'street' conversion of the S74, with added lighting, fat tires and exhaust pipes?
More footage or its story?
Someone claims it is a Vanderbild 1910 racer - is this really true? Google research did not help, I cannot identify this unique model.

Thanks for any hints and links!
m

Kirstie_H

You might see if the folks in Mystery Car Pix know: http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/4285/general/x/mystery-car-pix#latest

I'll send them a link to this discussion too.

fintail

Scroll about halfway down, maybe the same car?

http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/news/editors-picks/bill-harrahs-legacy-in-pictures

B&W pic looks to be from the 30s-40s, and I suspect those wheels aren't period correct.they look like the stubbier 1920s style artillery wheels.

If the car was at Haarrah's, it might be able to trace ownership since the collection was broken up.

autonarr

Thanks for the info and link!
I did see a small part of Harrah's collection many years ago, when living in the U.S.A.
Indeed his 1911 '41' FIAT appears to be a S.74 WITH the same - rare- side exhaust of its 14ltr engine. Racing pics of that time did not show them with these pipes or hood openings, at least not the ones in my collection.
And I do agree that the picture above was taken at later time.

So far all indicates that this IS indeed a S.74, but in an unusual modified 'street version' state, for whatever reason. A 'one off'?

Must have been fun to drive this car on regular roads.
Almost as much fun as Count Sukhanov had when driving his acquired 28.3ltr record 'beast of Torino' S.76 through Russian St. Petersburg, before both got butchered after the revolution..
FIAT used incredible engines back then, with bucket sized cylinders and arm length rods, cool!

daniellefiat

nice.....

Scuderia_Tartaruga

I know this thread is a long time since active, but can anyone tell me the source of the PHOTOGRAPH of the S74 posted here in 2014? I believe I can place the time and place that the photo was taken, but would like to verify that. The original poster of this thread does not appear to be active on the forum, but I would appreciate it if they or anyone could tell me anything more about the photo itself....I am quite certain this is the S74 that Louis Wagner drove in the Grand Prize in Savannah in 1911 and That Caleg Bragg won the 1912 Grand Prize in at Milwaukee. In 1913 Caleb Bragg sold it to Vincent Astor who modified it for street use with the headlamps, exhaust etc... It is restored and running today, but the current owner has removed the modifications that Astor did.

autonarr

Hi,
I was the poster of the original question and photo, several years ago. The real photo is NOT in my own collection nor do I recall where I dug it up back then. A Google reverse search may shine some light on its true origin.
I scanned my own archive for photos of Louis Wagner and HIS own FIAT S.74, did find a couple of interesting shots dating back to 1911 and 1912. But they do not reveal enough to identify the race car being the same as shown above in its weirdly modded 'street attire'. See attached.
Personally I was/am hooked to the S.76, from childhood on, when seeing a photo of F.Nazarro at the wheel of this true monster for the first time. It burnt into my brain for decades, until I read that the only survivor was rebuilt/restored by Duncan Pittaway. Today the S.76 is more known to the public again, and impresses with its incredible appearance and sound. It was an S.74 on steroids, and was also converted to a (Russian) street vehicle as mentioned and shown above. The good ol' times, before catalytic convertors, seat belts and air bags...

Scuderia_Tartaruga

Hi... Thank you so much for replying and providing your insight... I have tried a google reverse image search for that photo and only come up with a few incarnations of this version, which appears to be a screenshot, as there is a cursor visible in the upper left corner. If you found the image online in 2014, it's actual source now does not seem readily available. The car is the one Wagner drove in Savannah in 1911 #41 as pictured in the additional photos you attached. (can you provide the source or citations for those 2 photos of the #41 car?).. I don't believe Wagner drove that particular S74 again after that. It was one of 3 S74s brought over to the USA for the 1911 season. After Savannah it was brought to Los Angeles by E. Hewlitt. It was later driven by Caleb Bragg in 1912 with some success at Santa Monica and taking first place at the Milwaukee Grand Prize. Caleb Bragg then sold it to Vincent Astor in Nov. 1912 and Bragg went on to drive a Mercer. Vincent Astor added the exhaust and the other street modifications and owned the #41 car until the 30's . It had been stored for many years unused in his garage by that time, but was brought out and revived by some local mechanics in 1934. The car then apparently went from Astor to George Waterman, then to Harrah's collection, as shown in the link in a previous post above, then to it's current owner Goerge Wingard. If anyone else can point to the source of that photo with the smaller wheels on it c.1935 I would very much like to know where that photo came from. Thank you.

autonarr

That's indeed an interesting story of this unique S.74 street mod and its many whereabouts.
Driving such beasts on regular roads must be really cool.

If this is indeed "#41" it has been redone and put back into the original 1911 configuration as I found in this 1991 photo from Monterey. All the unique features are gone, I sort of liked the 'street rod conversion' more:



The ancient photos of Wagner's (#41 and #23) racers are from a pile of ca. 400 photos I once grabbed online.
They were published under 'Racing 1910 - 1919' as a bundle. I grabbed them for the ludicrous "1911 Brooklands Lion Peugeot Voiturette 1.9Ltr" shot and other race oddities of that era. Some of these old photos are still online at a site 'Sahallin'.

If interested in the entire stash (100MB) please drop a private message and I will send you a private temporary link.
In case you care about its big brother 'S.76' I can also offer the probably most comprehensive collection of photos (original factory build, record races and rare private shots, also the recent rebuild), compiled over the last 20 years or so.

Scuderia_Tartaruga

Thanks for your kind offer of the images Autonarr, I will PM you about that. Yes, the current owner of #41, George Wingard did remove the street modifications Vincent Astor did, as he apparently preferred the car to look as it did in it's racing days... I also personally prefer the look of the street modifications, but can sympathize with the desire to emphasize it's racing heritage. There are several videos of Wingard with the car on in action on the track one of which I will include a link to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V5HCzLF8II

Also, not related specifically to this car, but one of the other three S74s brought over in 1911, I will include links to it'a appearance in two films released by Keystone Studios, one film starring Charlie Chaplin. The owner of Keystone, Mack Sennett, bought the car from E Hewlett in LA and adapted it to street use similarly to Vincent Astor's, and you will see this in the Chaplin film. In the other film, It is as it appeared when it was raced by Teddy Tetzlaff, who also stars in the film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ei3WtfikoE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIYpG-R9COA&t=63s

Attached is a photo of the #41 car in 1965 at the Old Car Festival in Dearborn Michigan. Can anyone identify the driver with the children in the car? (possibly a young George Waterman?)





Still would love to know where the photo that the thread started with came from... If anyone can provide that information

TE300i

Could this be the same car, posted today on a facebook group for my hometown of Rhinebeck NY because of the relation to Vincent Astor (who lived here). This is the text in the post:

"Matt Verrilli, who just wrote the first part of a history of the Astors for our November newsletter, sent me this great fact about the photo below.
The car is the 1911 Fiat S 61 race car that Vincent Astor bought in 1912. It was raced by David Bruce Brown in the first Indianapolis 500. This was the first of two Fiat grand prix race cars Astor purchased that year."