Pocket Rockets!
pocahontas
Member Posts: 802
from Edmunds.com News section that some of you may appreciate: Return of the Pocket Rockets by Brent Romans. Note that 3 out of the 5 pocket rockets mentioned in this article are also hatchbacks. ;-)
Ford Focus ZX3
2002 Honda Civic Type R 2002 Mini Cooper
What do you think... any more to add? Thanks for your comments!
Pocahontas
Host
Hatchbacks/Station Wagons Message Boards
Ford Focus ZX3
2002 Honda Civic Type R 2002 Mini Cooper
What do you think... any more to add? Thanks for your comments!
Pocahontas
Host
Hatchbacks/Station Wagons Message Boards
Tagged:
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I also think that while it might be more upscale than the rest, the GTI, by virtue of it still being at least reasonably attainable should be included in the list... with the expected upgrades for 2002, it will not be taking a back seat to any of these cars.
As far as the detuned Civic, I think people will buy it for reasons like more power than a regular Civic, better tuning that a regular Civic. I bought my Acura CL type S because it is better than the regular CL. As for the Focus, Ford has yet to produce a real sporty competitor for small cars segment in the US. I believe it when they sell them here. I can't imagine Ford making the Focus to outperform the Contour or the base Mustang.... we'll see soon.
As for the Focus... well you may not want to believe it, but Ford has already pretty much committed to producing the SVT version of the car.. it is listed on the SVT website and I doubt they are worried about it competing against the Mustang and even less the no longer produced Contour. The base Mustang is like the BMW 318s... driven by people who want to be seen driving them. The SVT will out perform the Civic Si and that is about all there is to it.
As another topic in Town Hall, cars like WRX and such are fast, but they still look ugly to many.
Yes, I've read about the turbocharged Focus. Obviously, the Focus will compete in a different segment even though the pricing might be fairly close to a Mustang GT. SVT versions are not cheap nor wil there be many of them. If you think that I am defending any of these cars based on their performance, then you are sadly mistaken. Independent tests are not available so why would I care. Once the numbers are out, that will be another topic.
As far as choosing one trim over another, that's completely different from choosing one car over another.
Can't see Focus SVTs eating into Mustang GT sales. Different people buy those cars. You're not gonna see the typical Guido Mustang driver getting into a Euro-modeled car that's a direct competitor to rice-burners.
Being under $20k definitely won't hurt the sales of these hatchbacks.
Thanks for your comments. ;-)
Pocahontas
Host
Hatchbacks/Station Wagons Message Boards
I just wish we could actually see a test of one of THOSE. Definitely the most expensive on this list, but I find it the most desirable. Just waiting to see if I can fit in one.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Of course, this assumes that the 'pcoket' means inexpensive, whcih would still mean different things to different people. A $22K Camaro Z28 with 310HP is nothing to snear at--except for the looks.
I then wonder if the term 'pcoket' refers to the physical size of the vehicle (i.e. small and fast). A 911 is certainly small in comparison to a Caddy or Lexus 400, but tis not cheap.
So, which is the more generally accepted or talked about definition of 'pcoket rocket'?
Would you please check it out.
2002 Ford SVT.............
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/firstlook/articles/46786/article.html
Edmunds.com's First Look of the 2002 Ford Focus SVT is now available. Here's the
complete story: 2002 Ford Focus SVT, Holy Hatchback! by Ed Hellwig. What do you think?
Thank for your comments. ;-)
Pocahontas
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
Pics @ www.Nissannews.com
Of course, its a sedan, but so is the WRX. I would love to see a coupe/fastback version, but I think Nissan has enough on their hands as it is.
The engine size is the key here. Everyone else is coming to the table with less displacement than Nissan. But, like you said, they will probably all get better mileage. And, who knows? The Nissan may weigh more than the others and, therefore, not be the quickest. Its going to be interesting to see this all unfold.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
both cars will have the same displacement, be a similar size(i suspect the civic will be slightly smaller/lighter), and have similar hp figures(160 vs 170).
when you compare a civic ex 2 door(1.7 127hp) to a focus zx3(2.0 130(yeah right) hp), you find that the civic ex out-accelerates the focus. which kinda has me scratchin my head a bit. as for handling, i have always found that handling is a matter of personal preference, and cannot be accurately measured except by speed thru slaloms or comparing times thru a twisty track. i find that most ppl who love their sports car (or sporty car) tend to feel that their car is the "best" handling. and i guess it is, to them. it's what they like, and what theyre used to.
it is extremely important to remember that there is way more to acceleration times than power to weight ratios. you have to take into consideration gearing, powerband characteristics, aerodynamics, etc.
like i said, neither car is out yet, but my bettin' money on the 0-60 times as well as the 1/4 mile is on the civic si over the focus svt. but only time will tell. (ever compare the times of past civic Si's with escort gt's of the same vintage? hahahahahahahahahaha)
-rob
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
btw, there are some ol' sayings that apply here. first of all, it is said that hp wins races. it is also said that ppl buy hp and drive torque. either way, low end torque feels great, but i'd worry more about the hp for acceleration, and even thru the twisties, if yu're the type of driver who can make good use of a close ratio manual trans.
spaking of manual transmissions, the only advantage i see in the svt for now is the 6 spd manual. that should be pretty cool. but, as fun as torque is, i'd worry more about hp. oh, and 170svt vs 160si? well, ford hasnt made a focus yet that lives up to its s'posed hp rating, so again, i'll wait and see.
-rob
-rob
And, if you are referring to that article, then you will notice that that same rep admitted that the Nissan may have them beat. So, yes, he did, as a matter of fact, say that their car may not be as good as another competitor's. I really give him credit for that.
Personally, I'm not buying a Ford, so I could care less. As far as acceleration numbers, my money (in a bet, not in purchasing) is on the Spec-V (although I'm secretly rooting for the MINI) if we exclude the WRX.
You asked the question "why does anybody think the SVT will be faster?" I'm just answering it for ya. I'm not saying its true in the least. I really have no idea which will be faster. If anything, I'd probably bet on the Si to be faster than the SVT around a twistie track - but, again, we don't know for sure.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
C & D (?) did a comparo between the new Infiniti Q45 and Lexus GS430.
The Infiniti's V-8 had 340hp and 333 lb-ft of torque. The Lexus's V-8 had 300hp and 325 lb-ft of torque.
And guess what...the Lexus was faster to 60 than the Infiniti by a margin of a second while kicking the Infiniti's butt in the 1/4 mile and every other speed test that they went through.
And the Lexus was heavier than the new Infiniti, too.
Honda has already announced that the new Si could do 0-60 in around 7.5 seconds. If Nissan says its Sentra, with a 20hp and a full 50 lb-ft of twisting force advantage over the Si, can do 0-60 in the "low" 7's, then I wouldn't be surprised if the Si was faster.
Honda is conservative, but I don't know about Nissan. The Infiniti Q45 got into quite a bit of trouble when all the car magazines couldn't reproduce its claimed 0-60 time.
Well, numbers are only deceptive if you choose to look at them a certain way. There are many more numbers involved in the performance equation than most people look at. The most commonly overlooked of these being gear ratios.
But, aside from that, performance is also much more than the sum of a car's parts. The computer's ability to get the most out of an engine/tranny combination, for instance. The transmissions ability to shift gears quickly and firmly, etc. etc.
So, yeah, you're right, numbers can be deceptive, but only if the person looking doesn't look at them ALL.
Uh... what the heck were we talking about? ...
When the heck are these cars coming??!!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It makes 85% of it's 145 lb/ft as low as 2200 rpms, or something to that affect, its in pretty much every article on it. So we're looking at a 15 lb/ft and 10 HP advantage over the Si.
"when you compare a civic ex 2 door(1.7 127hp) to a focus zx3(2.0 130(yeah right) hp), you find that the civic ex out-accelerates the focus."
I've got (From C&D) 8.4 and 16.7 for the 01 Civic, 8.7 and 16.8 (From C&D also) for the 01 ZX3. The Civic wins but just barely, and certainly not by enough to think anything is fishy or the Ford is overrated.
"I'd probably bet on the Si to be faster than the SVT around a twistie track"
Why? The SVT has more HP, more torque, more gears, and a more sophisticated suspension. The previous Focus' suspension was much lauded by every car rag I saw, and this should be significantly better (wider lower profile tries tires, bigger wheels, SVT tuning, bigger brakes).
As has been said, only time will tell, but right now it looks like Ford is beating Honda at their own game. The SVT's specs are better in every single thing I've seen to compare so far.
Hope to hear from you before Feb 22 via the Talk to the Press discussion or at jfallon@edmunds.com with your thoughts and contact information.
Thanks for your participation.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards
All the car manufacturers seems to be inching towards the 200HP range and at the same time trying to keep the cost around the low to mid $20,000 mark. Personally I love Hondas but I'd like to see Ford offer a 200HP compact in America for under $20,000. I just might become a Ford lover. If there is a car company that can front it, it's Ford.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Civic Si doesn't quite satisfy... it's like a Focus in disguise! >:(
There is something so menacing about that little black dot!! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The two that made my final cut were the GTI and MB C230k - I ended up with the GTI and promptly started modifying it - tightened up the suspension and did a few simple engine tweaks for 240 or so HP, 235 lb ft of torque - a blast to drive it embarrases quite a few sports cars.
http://media.ford.com/events/2002_SEMA.cfm
I'm in Memphis and bought here. Take a look at the "Honda Civic Owners: What did you pay?" discussion. Lots of good info there, including a link to a Chicago dealer who confirmed a quote to me of $15,0++. I also got lots of good info about dealers and inventory by going to Honda's site and doing dealer locate from there.
Dunno if you wanna come this far, but my dealer had at least two white ones and at least one black one last Friday. Dobbs Honda on Covington Pike; I liked my salesguy - Heath Langston.
This seems more restrictive than other cars. What is the official break-in procedure for your car? Looking for Focus SVT, Civic Si, Beetle turbos, etc.
Doug
I'm breaking in a new Si. The manual says to 'avoid' full throttle starts for the 1st 600 miles and hard braking for the 1st 200 miles.