Ford V-10 vs PSD
The new issue of Trailer Life magazine has an
interesting article pitting the V-10 against the
Power Stroke Diesel for towing and cost of
ownership.
They tested two F250 super dutys, one with V-10
and 4.30 axle; one with PSD and 3.73 axle. The
reason for the difference in axle ratios is that
they wanted to test trucks with identical tow
ratings (both rated at 13,800 lbs.).
Each truck was hitched to identical 6,800lb.
travel trailers. The trucks accelerated virtually
the same, and pulled grades neck and neck. The only
real difference in performance was the fuel
mileage (PSD had the better milage of course).
They figured you would have to tow for 86,000
miles for the PSD fuel savings to break even with
the additional sticker cost of the PSD ($4500).
I see that many of you bought the PSD. I was
wondering, keeping the above info in mind, why so
many folks get the PSD. Personally, I would
probably trade for a new truck when I rack up that
many miles, so it would be a wash for me. Actually
the PSD would still cost more because I would be
paying interest on that $4500 as part of the loan.
Any opinions, comments?
interesting article pitting the V-10 against the
Power Stroke Diesel for towing and cost of
ownership.
They tested two F250 super dutys, one with V-10
and 4.30 axle; one with PSD and 3.73 axle. The
reason for the difference in axle ratios is that
they wanted to test trucks with identical tow
ratings (both rated at 13,800 lbs.).
Each truck was hitched to identical 6,800lb.
travel trailers. The trucks accelerated virtually
the same, and pulled grades neck and neck. The only
real difference in performance was the fuel
mileage (PSD had the better milage of course).
They figured you would have to tow for 86,000
miles for the PSD fuel savings to break even with
the additional sticker cost of the PSD ($4500).
I see that many of you bought the PSD. I was
wondering, keeping the above info in mind, why so
many folks get the PSD. Personally, I would
probably trade for a new truck when I rack up that
many miles, so it would be a wash for me. Actually
the PSD would still cost more because I would be
paying interest on that $4500 as part of the loan.
Any opinions, comments?
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Comments
All that racket inside would get to me after a long drive I would think. I drove a Ram Cummins diesel once, and it was pretty loud, I think the Ford is a bit quieter, but still...
Based on a 7.99% interest rate for 60 months it would cost $900 in INTEREST for the PSD option over the V-10. That makes it roughly a $5400 option. Wow!
I agree with you about the weight. I would have liked to see that test with the trucks towing something closer to their upper limits.
I don't have any experience with diesels, but I have a feeling the PSD would outshine the V-10 the heavier the load gets. That's why I posted this question... I want to hear from you PSD folks! How much better is it when you're pulling those big honkin' 5th wheels?
Chevy 3500-HD
GVRW~14K
Price~$26K
Engine~454, 410 ftlb, 300 hp
4.63 rear
mileage mostly highway, empty: worst 8.5, best 10.5
Chevy 3500-HD
GVRW~14K
Price~$29K
Engine~6.5, 440 ftlb, 220 hp
4.63 rear
mileage mostly highway, empty: worst 10, best 13
Ford F450
GVRW~12K
Price~$31K
Powerstroke, 235hp, 500 ftlb
5.13 rear
mileage all highway, worst 7, best 12
Ford F550
GVRW~12K
Price~$26K
V10, 275hp, 410 ftlb
5.13 rear, automatic transmission
mileage all highway, worst 6, best 9
the real kicker here is performance:
In these trucks, I rate them this way performance wise:
1. Ford Powerstorke
2. Chevy 454
3. Ford v10
4. Chevy diesel
You can really feal the powerstrokes low end grunt when taking off from a stop. But other than that, these engines are all pretty close. Once you get over 10-15 mph, the Chevy 454 feels more lively than the powerstroke. i think the truck that had the v10 might be better than the Chevy had it not had an automatic in it (which they have had trouble with).
The chevy diesel has good low end push, but poorer upper end horsepower than the rest of the motors.
The 454 really does run right with the powerstroke. I advised my dad to look into getting a powerstroke because i wasn't sure the 454 had enough low end. I was surprised at the power the truck has with all that weight on its back. The transmission is geared really well on that truck, every time you downshift, you hit about 1800 rpm, feels really strong and runs up quickly if you want to put your foot into it. holds 75 mph effortlessly at about 2300 rpms. Acceleration to highway speed in the 454, V10, and powerstroke truck were all about the same.
in these trucks, the diesel doesn't give a big advantage over gas, at all. they are no fuel savings, and in the past, the diesels have cost a couple thousand dollars more than the gas engines each in repairs up to the 200K mile mark. there is especially no big advantage now (at least in my part of the country) where diesel is the same price, sometimes higher priced, than gasoline. I think the Fords would have done a lot better in the mileage department if you could get a higher rear end than the 5.13.
i can't argue for diesel longevity either, since i've seen several HD trucks with 350's and 454's make it all the way up to 250, 300K miles before pooping out. if the truck is still in good shape, spend 1500 bucks on a rebuild, and you still come out ahead of the diesel.
I guess I should have left the "Ford" out of the topic title, since Dodge has V-10 and diesel also. I just want to figure out if I want a diesel or not in my next truck.
So, EXCUUUUSE MEEEEE!!!!!!! But don't expect an apology.
Like I said before, Cummins owners: feel free to put in your two cents.
Thanks for the insight. It's interesting to hear from someone that has experience with several different powerplants.
I also thought it was interesting to see the Chevy 3500 HD had a higher GVWR than the F450 and F550.
Factory GVWR's, Ford and Chevy are practically identical, the Ford 450 is the same as the Chevy 3500HD, and it is an option on the Chevy to upgrade the 3500HD to 19500 GVWR, like the F550. The Chevy just keeps the same badge.
Diesels are nice to leave running near idle. Mine will spend lots of time sitting at idle.
Can't turn it off because it's needed to power lighting and accessories (and air conditioning when the dogs are with me).
Gas motors run hotter and we always end up having to pop the hoods to keep from overheating.
In the hours per gallon comparison, diesels definitely win. (The MPG comparison will also pay by the time I rust the frame out)
It was mentioned a few posts back aout resale. Depending on the truck, that resale value can be more than worth it. On my Cummins, the option price was around 4000 smackers more than the V10, but at the (nearly) three year mark, and 45K on the odo, my truck is still worth over $2000 more than the comparable V10. Have I saved $2K in fuel so far? Oh yes I have!!! Additionally, I was right-side-up on a 5 year loan in just 2 years, so the Cummins has already paid for itself. Unfortunately for Ford, the older Navistars (6.9s and pre-Powerstroke 7.3s) were not well received in the used truck market and the Powerstrokes, for all their improvements, are taking some hits for the previous versions in terms of resale.
Maintenance is a wash. Everybody rags on the oil changes - mine cost me $40 (at the dealer no less) for an 11 quart change - pretty reasonable, and I will never have to worry about spark plugs, spark wires, distributors, caps, rotors, or "choppers" for the newer distributorless systems. Fuel price has not been an issue luckily - here in north NJ, regular unleaded and diesel are always within pennies of each other in a year-long average (gasoline is usually higher in summer, diesel higher in winter), so for me, the diesel came out ahead.
- The first part show how much more the diesel will cost if you finance it.
- Fuel mileage costs (this is normalized so you can enter how much of your driving is loaded and empty and your local cost for fuel).
- Operating costs (these costs came from my Ford dealership).
Joe
The V10 was much quieter and had much better acceleration. I was a little uneasy to see the tach jump up to 4800 rpm on the on-ramp, but it didn't seem to be winding out. If I hadn't been reading this list I would have believed the saleman's claims of 13-16 mpg for the gas engine. Of course I wasn't able to drive either under load where the impressions might have been different.
The killer for me was getting the trailer tow guide and seeing the payload for each vehicle. I need (want) the crew cab, 4x4, srw, and lwb. With a slide in camper, wife, dogs, and gear I'll need to put ~3900 lb. in the truck. This is a few hundred pounds over the V10 payload but it seems manageable. The diesel has a ~750 lb. premium and now I would be running ~1000 lb over weight. I don't want to put up with the extra cost and hassle of a dually just to carry around the extra weight of the engine and I don't want to run that much over weight ( but, I know people do it).
I actually wanted the diesel just to have the extra power and better mileage and even in a few years add a chip and exhaust to have a very impressive machine, but I'll draw the line at the dually. Now (trying to justify the V10) I'm imagining a 300hp 430ft-lb 12mpg engine that has about the same peak torque ( but not the same torque curve ) as a pre 99 diesel, but poor mileage. With a $2000 powerpak (when it comes out) it should be more like 340 hp 480ft-lb and 14mpg, but no significant weight gain. So I would have the srw with decent power, decent acceleration and somewhat acceptable mileage. Comments....corrections...?
Why, you ask? One word, TORQUE!
The joy of driving on the road with all that torque can not be put into words. The diesel is so much easier to drive.
Rich
If I did a LOT of towing or if money were no object, I might bite the bullet and get the diesel. Actually, I would like to get the diesel. But the majority of my towing is weekend trips and I just don't keep vehicles long enough for me to break even on the added investment.
Rich, I was wondering - what is it about the diesel that makes it "easier" to drive?
I would like to see that spreadsheet, but I don't think it's possible to post an excel spreadsheet here, just text.
The diesel seems to be much less affected by changes in grade. I did a lot of running from Orange county up to Fresno & Yosomite. The diesels would take the hills without much thought. I wasn't constantly adjusting the throttle (or so it seemed) like my friends gasoline Dodge. With a non-turbo 7.3L I could start in Grapevine (At 0 MPH) and long before the Fraizer Park, I was doing 85 MPH. The whole hill is about a 3300 foot gain in altitude in 6-8 miles. It feels as though the mechanical aspect of "DRIVING" is easier. I KNOW that I move the accelerator pedal much less than any of the gasoline vehicles that I drive. (Lot of rentals too.) It usually takes 3-4 days in a rental before I can keep the speed within a + or - 5 MPH. In my truck its 30 seconds and I'm + or - 1 MPH. I don't know. Maybe I'm just an old fart that can't adapt to the gasoline engine torque curves. (And no, I've never driven a big rig.)
Rich
When I moved north out of So. Cal. the U-Haul I rented struggled up the grade about 25 mph in first gear with my foot mashed to the floor!
Going down the other side I was burning the brakes trying not to plow through the traffic ahead of me. That was a scary ride!
But that's another story. Didn't mean to get off subject.
My two cents on the diesel vs gas choice are:
If you have any doubts about the diesel, go gas. The folks that are sure that they want a diesel are probably the only ones that should buy one.
Regarding your diesel and gasoline comment. I have not seen it said so eloquently in so few words! RIGHT ON!
Rich
The additional cost premium on the diesel.
The annoyance of finding diesel pumps when
you've been careless and are running out.
The louder noise in the diesels on long highway
trips.
The significantly higher maintenance costs if
the warranty runs out (valid since I'm now
doing more than 25K/year) and you haven't
been just doing highway runs (best use of
a diesel).
The mileage is annoying, I get 10.2 city (Dallas), 12 highway unloaded. If I did it again, I'd get the 3.73:1 gears. I can pull away from a light with a 7000# trailer and a full bed (2-3000#) in 2nd gear without much fuss -- the 3.73s would have given me an extra MPG or two. Towing, mileage doesn't drop much below 9-10 hwy.
As for whoever was claiming that they upgraded from an SB gas to an LWB PSD (w/ CD) -- you were paying too much for the gas truck. Check the dealer costs listed for the PSD, and you'll see.
I was looking at the Ford, because Dodge doesn't make a crew cab, and Chevy doesn't make it in the "New Silverado".
I finally found a Ford dealership that would sell me a truck for $1,000 over invoice (that is the absolute best deal I could find here in Oregon), but I would have to order it with a minimum 4 month wait. Problem is I wanted one now.
So, still looking for something off the lot, I checked out the GMBUYPOWER website and located a 99 Chevy 3500 Crew Cab "LS" 4X4 7.4L 4.10 axle long bed - pretty much fully loaded, but without the leather.
After a week of negotiating, I wrangled them down to $800 over invoice on that truck. I just drove it home last night. This morning I put on some larger BF Goodrich All Terrains.
I'm a happy camper so far, but heck - it hasn't even been 24 hours since I picked it up!
I got a fair trade on my 96 Chevy 2500 4X4, but I felt like I left a well loved pet at the pound!