Regarding the overseas delivery plan, does your dealership further negotiate the price down from the OSD MSRP?
(FWIW, I had previously been told by several DC area BMW dealerships that their ED prices were "non-negotiable" and set by BMW. In fact, "eurobuyers.com" let the cat out of the bag that BMW dealers are free to negotiate the price further down and, since then, I have been offered $1,000 to $1,500 over the ED invoice by several of the dealers who initially told me the ED prices were non-negotiable. So when I hear from my local Volvo dealer that the prices are fixed, I'm not inclined to take that as the bible.)
habitat and NVbanker: WHAT point? You mean the incorrect one habitat made about state air pollution law and FEDERAL tax policy?
(and I have a secret - it's not JUST California that doesnt like diesels.)
first, it is a FEDERAL tax benefit you get by buying the over 6,000 lb vehicle, not CALIFORNIA tax law
second, I don't want the air pollution regulators making tax law. I want them to protect the air quality. If they are protecting it too much, the legislators can fix that pretty easily.
everyone gets their panties in a twist over emissions and only focus on greenhouse gases. Gosh, did it ever occur to you that air pollution regulators might consider emissions other than greenhouse gases? Wow, what an epiphany.
Volvo pays the dealer a commision for OSD. If a dealer wishes to give some of that away, we can't stop them. Volvo OSD however, discourages strongly ANY altering of their pricing policy.
Fact is, on most cars it is no longer cheaper to buy through OSD instead of through regular dealer channels. The incentives available on most Volvo's take away the OSD price advantage. Most people who buy through OSD do so because of the vacation potential.
So, if I might ask, what is the amount of the "commission" that a Volvo dealer would be paid on a typical XC90?
In the case of BMW, the dealer that sells a car through ED at the published ED prices would make the same profit as if they sold a US delivery car at full MSRP. Therefore, there is a lot of toom for negotiation. I have a friend who just picked up a 545i at about $7,000 under US MSRP ($2,500 under U.S. Invoice, $1,200 over ED invoice). You are correct, if he had paid the "published" ED MSRP price, the savings vs. the best deal he could negotiate here would have been nominal. But that extra $2,500 +/- discount made the process worth it. And the dealer still made a healthy profit.
relevant to diesels: TRENTON, New Jersey (AP) -- Which is more harmful to your health -- a smoky bar or a city street filled with diesel truck fumes? Well, you might want to skip your next happy hour.
Smoky bars and casinos have up to 50 times more cancer-causing particles in the air than highways and city streets clogged with diesel trucks at rush hour, according to a study that also shows indoor air pollution virtually disappears once smoking is banned.
of course, this begs the question of safety to children (who breathe the air from auto pollution when at home, at play, etc.), since kids don't hang out in casinos. Moreover, just because casino air is worse, that does not mean that diesel-laden air isn't bad for you.
We been averaging 17.5 MPG (first 4000 miles)with our T6 driving on mixed driving (in a hilly area with some highway stretches). We don't consider ourselves slow drivers. I do occasional 90 mph streches when road conditions allow.
Anyway, with the V8 coming out, the comments about the shortcomings of T6 (mpg,4 sp tranny etc) are coming back again. In my mind these are overblown, there is no question that the T6 is more fun to drive than the T5 when is comes to additional accelerating power. (see also posting from someone who took the SkipBarber course). It all comes down to how much one wants to spend and what's more important. If the $ difference between the T5, T6, V8 is not a issue then the V8 is the way to go. But I repeat the T6 is a fine vehicle.
I x'd out the name to comply with Town Hall rules. I am still looking into the possibility of getting one of the early stateside arrivals in late 2004, but an early spring trip to Europe might be a nice alternative.
A friend wants to purchase a BMW for European Delivery & as he is quite busy, I am trying to help him get the best price. Habitat1 would you please email me as I want to find out more about ED & pricing. My email address is azhikers(nospam)@hotmail.com. Just delete the brackets & the word nospam to obtain my address. Thanks
You can get some information on the website www.eurobuyers.com. They used to post both ED invoice and ED MSRP prices, but now only post the ED MSRP prices. If you look on Edmunds, you can get an idea of the ratio between ED invoice and ED list on the base car - it's about the same percentage difference as the US MSRP vs. invoice. The ED price - invoice and MSRP - on options is exactly the same as the US prices on options. So, to get an approximation of the ED invoice price on a BMW, take the ED base MSRP price from eurobuyers.com, reduce it by the ratio between US list and invoice found on Edmunds (typically about 7%), and add up the options you want using Edmunds invoice prices on the options. There are BMW dealers out there that will do $1,200 +/- over ED invoice (and probably save you the time of calculating what that is).
Volvo dealers like volvomax don't want us to know the Volvo invoice price is on OSD (and I don't necessarily blame them). But it's only a matter of time before someone breaks the code of secrecy. My hometown dealership has offered they would, once they have information on the 2005 V8 XC90 and even though they are not particularly convenient to me, I'll buy from them just to reward their honesty.
I placed my order and paid my deposit on a 2005 V8 for OSD back in April. It's through the military sales program, but it's identical to the stateside OSD. My dealer has told me he received pick-up dates beginning in April. Of course, mine was the first order, so I guess I'll be getting mine in April. I recommend you get your order in soon before they get backlogged. After the XC90 first came out, pwople around here were waiting up to 9 months for an OSD opening.
The regular lights are good. Go to the dealer after dark and ask them to compare the Xenon and regular lights even on a parking lot. You can see the difference, but does it matter? It did not to me. I am perfectly happy with the regular lights on all of my Volvos (S80 and XC90)
Thanks Lev. I am used to driving with xenons on my current Audi A6. I don't want to "downgrade" I guess.
One other thing for the board:
What are the noticeable performance differences between the T6 and 2.5T? I wasn't really able to get out on the highway with either of them.
I can lease either vehicle with same options for approximately the same payments. Trying to decide which to go for. The only thing that bothers me is the gas mileage. On average, is the gas mileage really that much different?
People say it's there, but you have to drive both cars for the extended period of time to verify that.
I have opted for 2.5T. It's very nice car, and neither my wife, nor my two daughters nor I ever felt any lack of power.
My friend (who's regular wheels is BMW 530I 6 speed) drove it recently and complemented the drive and handling. His comment was - it is not X5 4.4, but it just like your S80 (meaning good enough).
I personally, either get 2.5T or, if I want more power, will wait for the V8, which should be here in a few month.
What are the chances that Volvo will change their lease rates for October for the 2005 T6? It's the begining of a new quarter. Trying to decide if I should wait a few weeks.
I seriously doubt Volvo will be able to price the XC90 V8 at $5,000 more than the current T6, unless they want to sell them at about $5,000 under invoice.
I just priced out a XC90 T6 w/versitility, navigation, climate and premium sound. According to Edmunds, it comes out to an MSRP of $47,770 and an invoice of $44,493. A comparably equiped Lexus GX 470, with a few additional goodies, has an MSRP of $49,883, an invoice of $43,305. I have found a dealer willing to sell me any 2004 at $1,000 over invoice, equating to a price of $44,305, essentially the same as the invoice on a T6.
I have heard of substantial discounts below invoice for the T6 but, if I were Volvo, I don't think I'd have a pricing strategy whereby I had to discount to $2,000-$3,000 below invoice to move cars. It looks like desperation and certainly isn't consistent with a luxury image.
I believe an XC90 V8 should be priced at or below a Lexus GX470 in order to be competitive in the marketplace over the long run. As such, I think Volvo needs to dump the T6 completely and price the V8 at or nominally above where the T6 was at. They can probably get away with selling a few thousand at higher prices, but given that no one is paying anywhere near MSRP for any XC90 today, I think Volvo might be well served to reinstate some credibility in their pricing. I'm not sure what I'm basing that on except gut instinct, but mine has usually served me pretty well.
Volvo has never had really competitive lease rates for the XC90's. We've had alot more success going to the local banks and lease companies if our customers have excellent credit.
I beg to differ. In the first place, tying your products price to one specfic competitor is silly. Yes the Lexus is a nice truck, but the XC90 has some things going for it as well. Volvo is eying M-B and BMW because thats who their competition really is. We actually get very little cross shopping on the GX Lexus. We get alot from Acura, BMW and Mercedes. The impression I get from your post is that the XC90 is inferior to the Lexus GX and so needs to be cheaper. The only thing the GX has is that its bigger, and bigger isn't always better. The XC90 continues to be a best seller for Volvo and a source of considerable revenue for the motor company and dealers. You don't do that if your car is priced wrong. As for the T6, it will be withdrawn sometime after the V8 launch. Volvo will bring it back in 07 with the new I6.
You may beg to differ, but you are also having to beg T6 buyers with below invoice offers. I don't think you do that if your car is priced right?
I stopped by Don Beyer Volvo (largest DC area dealer) this afternoon to take another look at the XC90 and get the latest scoop on the V8. They pretty much guaranteed me that the V8 will not be available until spring, since they showed me their entire allocation list through early January and no V8's. As far as pricing goes, nothing official, but the sales manager indicated the factory rep is projecting very similar to the current T6 MSRP pricing. Of course, the V8 may be able to achieve that level without the huge below invoice discounting, meaning that it will effectively be more expensive than the T6.
I'm surprised you would indicate the BMW (X5?) and ML as the cross shoppers considering the Volvo, but not the GX. We are looking for 7 passenger seating and although the MDX is on our list, the X5 is far too small and the ML has far too bad of a reputation for lack of build quality. The GX470 and MDX get cross shopped a lot according to my Acura dealer, so I'm not sure why the XC90 wouldn't in your area. The GX offers better serious SUV and off roading capability, whereas the XC90 (2.5) and MDX offer better gas mileage and a more car like ride and handling. If I could fit in an X5, I'd spring for a Cayenne S (or even V6 6-speed) in a heartbeat. Those are the driving enthusaist's alternative, in spite of very little "U" in the SUV.
Don Beyer also confirmed that the T6 will be phased out after the launch of the V8.
I didn't mean to imply the XC90 is inferior to the Lexus. Each has it's pros and cons, and both are excellent in their own right. I have not made up my mind, yet.
Volvo hasn't done the V8 allocation yet for anyone. Volvo hasd built V8's that they will hand out to dealers, but probably not till Nov. As for below invoice pricing, with the free Vers pkg that was possible, but we were still making money. Now we are selling 05's AND making money. The XC90 is the most profitable model Volvo has. As fir our competition, this is based on what our customers are actually shopping us against. Actually, most of our customers don't have nice things to say about the Lexus GX. They say its too trucklike, the don't like the rear door or the rear seats or the styling.
I agree with your other customers about the GX versus the 90. I also agree with the othe rposter, that if you need 7 seats, that you cross-shop different vehicles than if you ony need 5. The 90 is the best approach to carrying 7, if you have any desire for AWD/4WD. Of course, the 90 won't carry 7 adults, really. (but it sure is better than the SRX, as far as rear-most seats go)
I figured I could "get away" with seating for 6, so I also cross-shopped the Pacifica, but the 90 won. It's the one that made my wife smile, and as I get older I realize how important that is.
I agree,too. MDX, Aviator, MB were on my list, made an offer on MB @ invoice or slight below, believed in second chances(after MB reported quality issue), MDX interior sucks, Aviator little pricey on 4-wheel drive. Never serious on GX, looks good on paper, decided not to test drive after seeing the rear door and third seat. End up with XC90.
Currently own three autos, one american, one japanese, one european. Incline to go for another european, felt they are more substantial, assuming my XC90 holds up after many miles, kind worry bad design problem only shows up after lots of miles on new model.
Most people I know who bought a GX, haven't liked it, and dumped it at a loss for something else, either an LX 470, or other make SUV. Most cited it was too trucky, and not up to Lexus standards of luxury and refinement.
It's all anecdotal, but the people I know who own a GX are generally more happy with their purchase than those that own an XC90. And two of them traded down from a LX470 and Range Rover 4.6 HSE respectively, feeling that the smaller GX was quicker, more nimble, LESS trucklike than the LX or HSE. I am not polite when I question them: I ask them to give me their least favorite items/complaints. The single biggest ones on the XC90 are "pokey" performance and fear of long term durability (with towing) with the 2.5 liter engine. With the T6, it's poor gas mileage and a "jerky" transmission. On the GX, the complaints were concern over paint quality (compared to the LX470) and added maintenance of the light interior. No mechanical issues. Interestingly, one of the GX owners in our neighborhood is a "tall" family - husband is 6'2+/-, wife is 5'10+/- and they have 4 kids ranging from about 7 to 13, all of above average height. They claim they fit fine in the GX and don't have any complaints about the rear seats or rear door. They had traded down in size from a Ford Expedition and had nothing but bad things to say about Ford's lack of build quality and horrible fit and finish.
As I indicated previously, I have never intended to suggest that the GX is superior to the XC90. They are quite different vehicles. I suspect the XC90 V8, if it were available today, would likely be my first choice, depending upon price.
Just to add more confusion to the matter, my Acura dealer that also sells Mercedes is trying to tempt me with a 2005 E500 4-Matic Wagon. His pitch is that if you can get away with the "car like" XC90, am I sure we really need an SUV in the first place? An interesting question, but one which may be answered by my aversion to a $60k price tag, sports car comparable performance notwithstanding.
Has anybody considered the Land Rover LR3 as a comparable to the XC90 V8?
They both are owned by Ford and have a 300hp V8 and 7 seat flexibility. The LR3 even seems to have borrowed Volvo's Roll Stability Control with its "Active Roll Mitigation".
The Land Rover website puts the LR3 base price at $44,995.
My guess is that the XC90 V8 price won't be that different and will probably have to be less given the added off-road and towing capabilities of the LR3.
Now I'll speculate on behalf of the XC90 that Land Rover's reputation for reliabilty is so poor, that the XC90 V8 will not need to compete at all with the LR3 in terms of price.
I have a friend who is on his third or fourth Range Rover. He buys 2-3 year old, low mileage versions that are being sold at huge discounts. Like $29k for a vehicle that had an MSRP of over nearly $70k new. He has an excellent independent mechanic that keeps his vehicles on the road, but it takes a lot of work and you need to have patience.
Of all the vehicles we are considering, I would have a tough time cross shopping the Land Rover against the XC90, given my low tolerance for pain on the probelm front.
In my recent drive from Portland, ME to NYC I got average 20.2 mpg; and I was going pretty fast - 80 mph most of the time. My wife's daily commute between Long Island and Brooklyn shows about 17 mpg. I don't think it is bad for a vehicle of this size and power. And no this 1-2 gear transmission problem by the way.
A Mercury Mountaineer getting 20.3 mpg in the city? On a vehicle with EPA ratings of 15 city and 20 highway?
We have friends that leased a 2003 Mountaineer for 24 months, having moved here from Ireland and, like us, are now looking at a replacement SUV. Their experience has been 14 mpg in the city, 18-19 on the highway, comparable to our Isuzu Trooper. And that's with a pretty pokey 6 cylinder engine. They borrowed another friend's Honda Pilot for a weekend trip to the shore last week and it got 22 mpg in a mostly highway mix. Not to mention a "much better driving" vehicle in thier opinion.
Fortunately, they didn't purchase the Mountaineer. They indicated that the current trade in value of of theirs (30k miles) would only be about $16k, meaning they would have lost about 50% of the purchase price in only 2 years. They are looking forward to handing the keys over to Mercury this November and buying something that will actually hold its value better than a share of Enron stock. They are leaning towards the MDX, but are also considering the XC90 with us, with the possibility that both of our families would do the OSD program.
At 20.3 mpg, are you sure your wife doesn't have a boyfriend out in the country? :-)
Gee, thanks for sharing all of that negative energy. I'm sure the Pilot is a dream, but I don't care for it. The 20.3 is with the 6, and it's real. There is some in-town freeway involved, but it's real. If you don't believe me, nothing I can do about that.
My business partner recently acquired an XC-90 at my suggestion. I love the car, and certainly would consider one. But there's not a damn thing wrong with the Mountaineer. We've had one Explorer, and 4 Mountaineers, and every one of them has been an amazing machine for us. Of course, YMMV - a consideration you didn't offer to me.
I'm not surprised that people coming from a Range Rover and a LX470 would think the GX470 was an improvement and less truck like. I think semi-truck drivers would think the GX470 is less truck like as well.
Lexus has an excellent reputation for service and customer care, but I don't find their cars impressive. I always get into a Lexus and think, "Gee, a Toyota used to be pretty nice before they created Lexus." Now you get to pay Lexus prices for that level while Toyota has decontented so much that side airbags were options until 2004. To me, someone buys a Lexus to eliminate concerns about treatment from a dealership and they don't mind driving a rather nondescript car.
I think Volvo dealers vary in quality more than Lexus dealers (all older brands have that problem), but I'd rather drive a XC90 (especially the V8) when compared to a GX470 (based off the 4Runner).
On the "truck like" vs. "car like" driving impressions, I think that one is very subjective depending upon your needs. As I think I previously posted, my Acura/Mercedes dealer has tempted me with a very good offer on a Mercedes E500 4-matic Wagon, if I decide I can get by with a real "car like" AWD vehicle. We travel to the snow belt relatively frequently and I'm thinking we probably want a real SUV. But the capabilities of the 4-Matic Wagon and XC90 are not that far apart, with the exception of more ground clearance for moderately deeper snow with the XC90. Ten to twelve or more inches of snow is going to bog down either vehicle compared to the GX470 or other "truck like" SUV.
Even the Don Beyer Volvo sales manager volunteered that they do not recommend the Volvo XC90 for anything representing deep snow duty, serious off roading or boat towing. That was the subject of previous debate in this forum, which I don't want to rekindle, but frankly I am MORE inclined to buy from Don Beyer based upon their honesty, rather than trying to claim the XC90 is the perfect SUV for all applications. Honesty equates to integrity in my book.
As for the Lexus vs. Toyota comparisons, I tend to agree with you. I have never found any sedan model by Lexus (or Toyota) viscerally appealing. They make vanilla ice cream better than anybody. Neither is the GX470 particularly exciting, but I've resolved that excitement isn't the highest priority in our SUV purchase. Nothing on the SUV front, short of the X5 3.0 6-speed or Cayenne V6 6-speed would I describe as "fun to drive" and neither of them can hold much more in passengers or cargo my Acura TL sedan (6-speed, as if I needed to mention).
At full MSRP ($50k+), the GX470 would not be on my list. But at $44.5k for a loaded (3rd row, Nav/ML equiped) GX470 with a real V8 and Lexus reliability and resale, it is tempting. But so is the XC90 2.5 through OSD. I'd love to have the XC90 V8 here to tempt me before the end of the year, but unfortunately that appears not to be the case.
A few more test drives are in order.
P.S. nvbanker: Sorry about the negative comments on the Mountaineer. Sounds like you have had good luck and are very happy and I was a bit out of place with my comments. Maybe I'm just jeleous - My 2004 Acura TL 6-speed, rated at 20/30 mpg, is only achieving 16-17 in a city/mix driving. So if you are beating the EPA highway rating in the city, you are to be congratulated.
I would definitely agree that the XC90 is not something I would want to take off road, like the Acura MDX, BMW X3/X5, Lexus RX330, Toyota Highlander, etc.
I haven't been following the quality of the E series Mercedes. The C series has been pretty bad. Has the E series been a more reliable model for them?
I completely understand your feelings about the V8 XC90. If I were in the market, I'd have to wait for that. I think that the biggest item holding the XC90 back is the current choice of engine/transmissions.
I'm surprised to hear your '04 TL is getting that kind of mileage. Has it been a good car otherwise? I almost waited for that to come out before I bought my sedan.
Volvo updated their XC90 website to include more details on the V8. There are some technical differences that I have not seen mentioned previously. (such as increased fuel tank capacity)
I just returned from another test drive of the XC90 2.5 and I have to admit, after owning an Isuzu Trooper for 7+ years and 75,000 miles, the 2.5 would be just fine for my wife.
However, the dealer manager also indicated that she received additional pricing info last week that suggested the V8 will be almost identical to the T6 in pricing, and therefore only about $2,000 more than the 2.5 comparably equiped. She is going to call me next week to let me know the earliest she will be able to get me on the OSD program for a V8 and in the meantime I'll need to decide if we want to wait until early 2005.
Regarding the E class Mercedes, I am under the impression they are pretty good since the 2000 model. I would not have too much concern with a new one accompanied with a 7/100 extended warranty.
I'm a little dissapointed with my TL city/mixed driving mileage, but it does get 30+/- on the highway at 70-75 mph in 6th gear. The Tl engine revs so effortlessly that I often find myself shifting at 4,500 to 5,000 rpm whereas I would shift at 3,500 to 4,000 rpm in my Maxima. Other than mileage and some lack of seat comfort (good side bolsters, bad back/neck support), no complaints on the TL. The performance, handling, sound system, nav system, bluetooth phone and overall build quality are all superb.
Back to the XC90, I'm wondering how many "I told you so's" I will get form other Volvo loyalists if I end up getting an XC90 2.5??
Comments
Regarding the overseas delivery plan, does your dealership further negotiate the price down from the OSD MSRP?
(FWIW, I had previously been told by several DC area BMW dealerships that their ED prices were "non-negotiable" and set by BMW. In fact, "eurobuyers.com" let the cat out of the bag that BMW dealers are free to negotiate the price further down and, since then, I have been offered $1,000 to $1,500 over the ED invoice by several of the dealers who initially told me the ED prices were non-negotiable. So when I hear from my local Volvo dealer that the prices are fixed, I'm not inclined to take that as the bible.)
(and I have a secret - it's not JUST California that doesnt like diesels.)
first, it is a FEDERAL tax benefit you get by buying the over 6,000 lb vehicle, not CALIFORNIA tax law
second, I don't want the air pollution regulators making tax law. I want them to protect the air quality. If they are protecting it too much, the legislators can fix that pretty easily.
everyone gets their panties in a twist over emissions and only focus on greenhouse gases. Gosh, did it ever occur to you that air pollution regulators might consider emissions other than greenhouse gases? Wow, what an epiphany.
If a dealer wishes to give some of that away, we can't stop them.
Volvo OSD however, discourages strongly ANY altering of their pricing policy.
Fact is, on most cars it is no longer cheaper to buy through OSD instead of through regular dealer channels.
The incentives available on most Volvo's take away the OSD price advantage.
Most people who buy through OSD do so because of the vacation potential.
In the case of BMW, the dealer that sells a car through ED at the published ED prices would make the same profit as if they sold a US delivery car at full MSRP. Therefore, there is a lot of toom for negotiation. I have a friend who just picked up a 545i at about $7,000 under US MSRP ($2,500 under U.S. Invoice, $1,200 over ED invoice). You are correct, if he had paid the "published" ED MSRP price, the savings vs. the best deal he could negotiate here would have been nominal. But that extra $2,500 +/- discount made the process worth it. And the dealer still made a healthy profit.
As for BMW, their margin is considerably healthier than Volvo's.
TRENTON, New Jersey (AP) -- Which is more harmful to your health -- a smoky bar or a city street filled with diesel truck fumes? Well, you might want to skip your next happy hour.
Smoky bars and casinos have up to 50 times more cancer-causing particles in the air than highways and city streets clogged with diesel trucks at rush hour, according to a study that also shows indoor air pollution virtually disappears once smoking is banned.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/09/20/smoking.pollution.ap/index.h- tml
of course, this begs the question of safety to children (who breathe the air from auto pollution when at home, at play, etc.), since kids don't hang out in casinos. Moreover, just because casino air is worse, that does not mean that diesel-laden air isn't bad for you.
ourselves slow drivers. I do occasional 90 mph streches when road conditions allow.
Anyway, with the V8 coming out, the comments about the shortcomings of T6 (mpg,4 sp tranny etc) are coming back again. In my mind these are overblown, there is no question that the T6 is more fun to drive than the T5 when is comes to additional accelerating power. (see also posting from someone who took the SkipBarber course). It all comes down to how much one wants to spend and what's more important. If the $ difference between the T5, T6, V8 is not a issue then the V8 is the way to go.
But I repeat the T6 is a fine vehicle.
Dear Mr. Xxxxxx,
Thank you for yiour interest in the Volvo Overseas Delivery Program.
Unfortunately the XC90 V8 will not be ready for delivery on our program until February of 2005.
Regards,
Bxxxxx Cxxxxxxxxxxx
Volvo Overseas Delivery
I x'd out the name to comply with Town Hall rules. I am still looking into the possibility of getting one of the early stateside arrivals in late 2004, but an early spring trip to Europe might be a nice alternative.
Volvo dealers like volvomax don't want us to know the Volvo invoice price is on OSD (and I don't necessarily blame them). But it's only a matter of time before someone breaks the code of secrecy. My hometown dealership has offered they would, once they have information on the 2005 V8 XC90 and even though they are not particularly convenient to me, I'll buy from them just to reward their honesty.
I placed my order and paid my deposit on a 2005 V8 for OSD back in April. It's through the military sales program, but it's identical to the stateside OSD. My dealer has told me he received pick-up dates beginning in April. Of course, mine was the first order, so I guess I'll be getting mine in April. I recommend you get your order in soon before they get backlogged. After the XC90 first came out, pwople around here were waiting up to 9 months for an OSD opening.
You're right, spring in Europe is beautiful.
Are the regular headlights that bad that I would need the Bi-xenons? Can't decide.
Copper
One other thing for the board:
What are the noticeable performance differences between the T6 and 2.5T? I wasn't really able to get out on the highway with either of them.
I can lease either vehicle with same options for approximately the same payments. Trying to decide which to go for. The only thing that bothers me is the gas mileage. On average, is the gas mileage really that much different?
Thanks.
People say it's there, but you have to drive both cars for the extended period of time to verify that.
I have opted for 2.5T. It's very nice car, and neither my wife, nor my two daughters nor I ever felt any lack of power.
My friend (who's regular wheels is BMW 530I 6 speed) drove it recently and complemented the drive and handling. His comment was - it is not X5 4.4, but it just like your S80 (meaning good enough).
I personally, either get 2.5T or, if I want more power, will wait for the V8, which should be here in a few month.
thanks,
scott
I'm guessing the V8 will be @ $5000 more than a comparable T6.
Thanks,
Copper
I just priced out a XC90 T6 w/versitility, navigation, climate and premium sound. According to Edmunds, it comes out to an MSRP of $47,770 and an invoice of $44,493. A comparably equiped Lexus GX 470, with a few additional goodies, has an MSRP of $49,883, an invoice of $43,305. I have found a dealer willing to sell me any 2004 at $1,000 over invoice, equating to a price of $44,305, essentially the same as the invoice on a T6.
I have heard of substantial discounts below invoice for the T6 but, if I were Volvo, I don't think I'd have a pricing strategy whereby I had to discount to $2,000-$3,000 below invoice to move cars. It looks like desperation and certainly isn't consistent with a luxury image.
I believe an XC90 V8 should be priced at or below a Lexus GX470 in order to be competitive in the marketplace over the long run. As such, I think Volvo needs to dump the T6 completely and price the V8 at or nominally above where the T6 was at. They can probably get away with selling a few thousand at higher prices, but given that no one is paying anywhere near MSRP for any XC90 today, I think Volvo might be well served to reinstate some credibility in their pricing. I'm not sure what I'm basing that on except gut instinct, but mine has usually served me pretty well.
We've had alot more success going to the local banks and lease companies if our customers have excellent credit.
In NJ, Chase and Wells Fargo are more. Something like .0023
Do you think $300 above invoice is a good deal on a 2005 T6?
I didn't even haggle with the dealer.
I beg to differ.
In the first place, tying your products price to one specfic competitor is silly. Yes the Lexus is a nice truck, but the XC90 has some things going for it as well.
Volvo is eying M-B and BMW because thats who their competition really is. We actually get very little cross shopping on the GX Lexus.
We get alot from Acura, BMW and Mercedes.
The impression I get from your post is that the XC90 is inferior to the Lexus GX and so needs to be cheaper. The only thing the GX has is that its bigger, and bigger isn't always better.
The XC90 continues to be a best seller for Volvo and a source of considerable revenue for the motor company and dealers. You don't do that if your car is priced wrong. As for the T6, it will be withdrawn sometime after the V8 launch.
Volvo will bring it back in 07 with the new I6.
I stopped by Don Beyer Volvo (largest DC area dealer) this afternoon to take another look at the XC90 and get the latest scoop on the V8. They pretty much guaranteed me that the V8 will not be available until spring, since they showed me their entire allocation list through early January and no V8's. As far as pricing goes, nothing official, but the sales manager indicated the factory rep is projecting very similar to the current T6 MSRP pricing. Of course, the V8 may be able to achieve that level without the huge below invoice discounting, meaning that it will effectively be more expensive than the T6.
I'm surprised you would indicate the BMW (X5?) and ML as the cross shoppers considering the Volvo, but not the GX. We are looking for 7 passenger seating and although the MDX is on our list, the X5 is far too small and the ML has far too bad of a reputation for lack of build quality. The GX470 and MDX get cross shopped a lot according to my Acura dealer, so I'm not sure why the XC90 wouldn't in your area. The GX offers better serious SUV and off roading capability, whereas the XC90 (2.5) and MDX offer better gas mileage and a more car like ride and handling. If I could fit in an X5, I'd spring for a Cayenne S (or even V6 6-speed) in a heartbeat. Those are the driving enthusaist's alternative, in spite of very little "U" in the SUV.
Don Beyer also confirmed that the T6 will be phased out after the launch of the V8.
I didn't mean to imply the XC90 is inferior to the Lexus. Each has it's pros and cons, and both are excellent in their own right. I have not made up my mind, yet.
As for below invoice pricing, with the free Vers pkg that was possible, but we were still making money.
Now we are selling 05's AND making money.
The XC90 is the most profitable model Volvo has.
As fir our competition, this is based on what our customers are actually shopping us against.
Actually, most of our customers don't have nice things to say about the Lexus GX. They say its too trucklike, the don't like the rear door or the rear seats or the styling.
I figured I could "get away" with seating for 6, so I also cross-shopped the Pacifica, but the 90 won. It's the one that made my wife smile, and as I get older I realize how important that is.
Currently own three autos, one american, one japanese, one european. Incline to go for another european, felt they are more substantial, assuming my XC90 holds up after many miles, kind worry bad design problem only shows up after lots of miles on new model.
As I indicated previously, I have never intended to suggest that the GX is superior to the XC90. They are quite different vehicles. I suspect the XC90 V8, if it were available today, would likely be my first choice, depending upon price.
Just to add more confusion to the matter, my Acura dealer that also sells Mercedes is trying to tempt me with a 2005 E500 4-Matic Wagon. His pitch is that if you can get away with the "car like" XC90, am I sure we really need an SUV in the first place? An interesting question, but one which may be answered by my aversion to a $60k price tag, sports car comparable performance notwithstanding.
They both are owned by Ford and have a 300hp V8 and 7 seat flexibility. The LR3 even seems to have borrowed Volvo's Roll Stability Control with its "Active Roll Mitigation".
The Land Rover website puts the LR3 base price at $44,995.
My guess is that the XC90 V8 price won't be that different and will probably have to be less given the added off-road and towing capabilities of the LR3.
I have a friend who is on his third or fourth Range Rover. He buys 2-3 year old, low mileage versions that are being sold at huge discounts. Like $29k for a vehicle that had an MSRP of over nearly $70k new. He has an excellent independent mechanic that keeps his vehicles on the road, but it takes a lot of work and you need to have patience.
Of all the vehicles we are considering, I would have a tough time cross shopping the Land Rover against the XC90, given my low tolerance for pain on the probelm front.
My wife's daily commute between Long Island and Brooklyn shows about 17 mpg.
I don't think it is bad for a vehicle of this size and power.
And no this 1-2 gear transmission problem by the way.
On a Rover, it's European, expect European type problems from them, you'll have 'em.
We have friends that leased a 2003 Mountaineer for 24 months, having moved here from Ireland and, like us, are now looking at a replacement SUV. Their experience has been 14 mpg in the city, 18-19 on the highway, comparable to our Isuzu Trooper. And that's with a pretty pokey 6 cylinder engine. They borrowed another friend's Honda Pilot for a weekend trip to the shore last week and it got 22 mpg in a mostly highway mix. Not to mention a "much better driving" vehicle in thier opinion.
Fortunately, they didn't purchase the Mountaineer. They indicated that the current trade in value of of theirs (30k miles) would only be about $16k, meaning they would have lost about 50% of the purchase price in only 2 years. They are looking forward to handing the keys over to Mercury this November and buying something that will actually hold its value better than a share of Enron stock. They are leaning towards the MDX, but are also considering the XC90 with us, with the possibility that both of our families would do the OSD program.
At 20.3 mpg, are you sure your wife doesn't have a boyfriend out in the country? :-)
My business partner recently acquired an XC-90 at my suggestion. I love the car, and certainly would consider one. But there's not a damn thing wrong with the Mountaineer. We've had one Explorer, and 4 Mountaineers, and every one of them has been an amazing machine for us. Of course, YMMV - a consideration you didn't offer to me.
Lexus has an excellent reputation for service and customer care, but I don't find their cars impressive. I always get into a Lexus and think, "Gee, a Toyota used to be pretty nice before they created Lexus." Now you get to pay Lexus prices for that level while Toyota has decontented so much that side airbags were options until 2004. To me, someone buys a Lexus to eliminate concerns about treatment from a dealership and they don't mind driving a rather nondescript car.
I think Volvo dealers vary in quality more than Lexus dealers (all older brands have that problem), but I'd rather drive a XC90 (especially the V8) when compared to a GX470 (based off the 4Runner).
Even the Don Beyer Volvo sales manager volunteered that they do not recommend the Volvo XC90 for anything representing deep snow duty, serious off roading or boat towing. That was the subject of previous debate in this forum, which I don't want to rekindle, but frankly I am MORE inclined to buy from Don Beyer based upon their honesty, rather than trying to claim the XC90 is the perfect SUV for all applications. Honesty equates to integrity in my book.
As for the Lexus vs. Toyota comparisons, I tend to agree with you. I have never found any sedan model by Lexus (or Toyota) viscerally appealing. They make vanilla ice cream better than anybody. Neither is the GX470 particularly exciting, but I've resolved that excitement isn't the highest priority in our SUV purchase. Nothing on the SUV front, short of the X5 3.0 6-speed or Cayenne V6 6-speed would I describe as "fun to drive" and neither of them can hold much more in passengers or cargo my Acura TL sedan (6-speed, as if I needed to mention).
At full MSRP ($50k+), the GX470 would not be on my list. But at $44.5k for a loaded (3rd row, Nav/ML equiped) GX470 with a real V8 and Lexus reliability and resale, it is tempting. But so is the XC90 2.5 through OSD. I'd love to have the XC90 V8 here to tempt me before the end of the year, but unfortunately that appears not to be the case.
A few more test drives are in order.
P.S. nvbanker: Sorry about the negative comments on the Mountaineer. Sounds like you have had good luck and are very happy and I was a bit out of place with my comments. Maybe I'm just jeleous - My 2004 Acura TL 6-speed, rated at 20/30 mpg, is only achieving 16-17 in a city/mix driving. So if you are beating the EPA highway rating in the city, you are to be congratulated.
I haven't been following the quality of the E series Mercedes. The C series has been pretty bad. Has the E series been a more reliable model for them?
I completely understand your feelings about the V8 XC90. If I were in the market, I'd have to wait for that. I think that the biggest item holding the XC90 back is the current choice of engine/transmissions.
I'm surprised to hear your '04 TL is getting that kind of mileage. Has it been a good car otherwise? I almost waited for that to come out before I bought my sedan.
http://www.xc90.com/v8/
However, the dealer manager also indicated that she received additional pricing info last week that suggested the V8 will be almost identical to the T6 in pricing, and therefore only about $2,000 more than the 2.5 comparably equiped. She is going to call me next week to let me know the earliest she will be able to get me on the OSD program for a V8 and in the meantime I'll need to decide if we want to wait until early 2005.
Regarding the E class Mercedes, I am under the impression they are pretty good since the 2000 model. I would not have too much concern with a new one accompanied with a 7/100 extended warranty.
I'm a little dissapointed with my TL city/mixed driving mileage, but it does get 30+/- on the highway at 70-75 mph in 6th gear. The Tl engine revs so effortlessly that I often find myself shifting at 4,500 to 5,000 rpm whereas I would shift at 3,500 to 4,000 rpm in my Maxima. Other than mileage and some lack of seat comfort (good side bolsters, bad back/neck support), no complaints on the TL. The performance, handling, sound system, nav system, bluetooth phone and overall build quality are all superb.
Back to the XC90, I'm wondering how many "I told you so's" I will get form other Volvo loyalists if I end up getting an XC90 2.5??