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Comments
"it is important to remember that the personality of a brand, the personality of a company, is an asset—as much so as people, technology, or other hard assets...."
and
"And only take the opportunity to do cross-brand cooperation in areas that don’t affect the customer experience or relationship with the brand"
Nasser has it figured out. (Boardmember.com).
That's pretty critical, because there are some of us who see Volvo, Jag, LR, and think Ford; not Premier Auto Group. We're the same crowd who see Toblerone and think Kraft. Ben & Jerry's makes me think of Unilever.
So Premier has to make sure that when ordinary car buyers see an XC90, they don't think Ford. Otherwise, why buy the brand if the stuff under the sheetmetal is the same as a cheaper Explorer.
I don't automatically think Renault when I hop in my Quest, but it's in the back of my mind somewhere.
Steve, Host
the DC "merger" has been great for Chrysler no doubt, for Mercedes it has been a disaster.
Stock price is down, quality is down etc.
Ford and Volvo do have some things to learn from each other. Ford on how to make quality decisions and not necessarily bean counter decisions, also safety technology.
Volvo on how to do something in a timely manner. The Swedes never get anything done on time.
In fact, talking to the engineers their biggest complaint is the constant prodding by the Ford people to get things done on time. The Swedes are just slow.
FYI, the 500 and Montego aren't "parts bin" cars since they don't actually use any Volvo parts.
Ford used the basic P2 design. But anyone who has seen both cars can see that the critical parts of the P2 chassis weren't used. The extra bracing was deleted and the high strength steel wasn't used in nearly as much of the chassis.
However, I want to repeat that I really think the XC90 V8 is a exceptional vehicle. In the event the opportunity arises, I will not hesitate to recommend it to anyone. And if it were purely up to me, that's the vehicle I would be on a plane to pick up over the Memorial Day weekend.
Two points, however:
Regarding your point about being offended by Acura and Lexus rebadging of Honda and Toyota products, I partially agree. But Honda and Acura, IMO, make up for it by eliminating nickle and diming. The MDX basically comes as 2 models (base and touring) with only two options that can be added to the touring (navigation & dvd). One of the things that offended my wife was that the XC90 V8 she test drove, in spite of having lots of standard equipment, also had an options list a mile long that took the price of the test vehicle up to $56,000+. And the cost of a semi-integrated hands-free bluetooth phone system (aftermarket) was quoted as $1,500. I explained to her that the model we would get would "only" be about $45k through OSD, but she still didn't take kindly to metallic paint being listed as a $450 option. So, either way you look at it, there is a "base" version of each of these vehicles for about $10-$15k less than the "premium" version.
Second, as an engineer, I think you need to re-look at the technology of the RL'S SH-AWD system. Frankly, I don't like the RL as a sport sedan, and would much rather have a good old fashioned RWD BMW 545i 6-speed. But, from what I have read, the SH-AWD system on the RL is a step or two ahead of Audi's and BMW's current AWD systems.
I'll still be around, so don't worry that we won't have more opportunities to debate. It's been to much fun to quit.
Responding to your points, I need to say;
1. I actually never liked the "packaged deals". I like individual options. I want the base luxury car to be loaded with more amenities than the base commodity family vehicle, but I also want to be able to decide, whether I want or not some non-essential options. And, actually, I did save $350 (it was that much 5 years ago) on non-metallic paint, because I liked black Volvo S80 the most. You would agree, that one way or other the cost of extra coating is included in the price of MDX, whether you have chosen the metallic paint or not. So, in case of MDX you actually pay for something that you did not get.
The OSD program has an additional attractivnes to me due to the longer list of non-packaged options.
This is typical for all the European luxury brands, and I like it. I do not want the manufacturer to decide exactly what kind of car I am going to drive.
2. I wanted to ask this question for a long time. Why does the Bluetooth phone is so important to you? I work in IT of one of largest utility companies in US, and have a first hand experience with all modern wireless technologies. As a professional, I could not get why people are so hyper about it. The "regular" GSM cell phone will work better. It also could work all around the world.
3. The combination of Haldex AWD and DSTC does very similar thing on Volvo. The AWD distributes the torque between the front and rear, and DSTC - between the left and right.
I saw XC90 going through the special trek with only one wheel touching the ground at any given point, and three hanging in the air and not spinning.
Haldex AWD is better than Audi's one. Audi uses Haldex on TT to improve performance.
Folks please go to ES 330 Price Paid Forum, look at first posts dec'03 to recent posts dec'04, 40k down to 30k for a prestigious nameplate. When you see many more people on the road drive your car, realizing they're paying far less for same privilege, it's more than a bad investment. BMW & MB will never do that. I believe Acura underpriced TL as well, I would've design a juiced-up Accord for that price range, like Avalon from Toyota, a new distinct product, a bit higher price tag with a better package, still called Honda. Look, the new Maxima cost more.
Again, off the topic.
The individual options no longer exist on OSD.
We are pretty much limited to the same packages as on the regular US cars.
If the Japanese ever figure out how to effectively style vehicles.. watch out.
As for MB and BMW not pricing agressively.. MB would love to be in a position to do so (perhaps not here in the U.S., but certainly worldwide - as their goal is to compete with VW top to bottom as a nameplate - they can't for the aforementioned reasons. Part of the reason that MB quality has gone in the tank over the last 5-6 years is that they have been pursuing this goal. BMW is a small volume manufacturer, and therefore a different kettle of fish... suffice it to say that if they wanted to play a volume game, they would get killed...
However, I have to point to some contradictions in your point of view.
1.You say, and absolutely correct, that price is a reflection of what the market can bear, but in the very next sentence you say that European manufacturers HAVE TO keep prices higher, because they can not do better. Obvious contradiction right here - European keep there prices high because they CAN and the market CAN bear it.
2. Japanese manufacturers do cut every possible corner in their mass production cars - people who are involved into the car industry can attest to it.
3. Euro manufacturers can built inexpensive cars, you should not worry about them. Search internet for the one of the latest projects from Renault, that will be building full featured compact sedan for under 5000 euro. Japan still has a challenge to compete on European market with such giants as VW and Renault.
4. I did not see the accounting books of MB and BMW, but knowing how many MB is built in China (though for the Asian market) and that BMW builds quite a few cars in Mexico, I think that they can manage their cost all right. Once again, the higher prices is a reflection of the higher status, it's the price they CAN get.
5. When it comes to XC90 in particular, I do not think that Volvo can make any more of them. I do believe in their statement that they struggle to keep-up with the demand at the current pricing level. So, it is not that Volvo can not SELL triple amount of XC90, but they can not PRODUCE triple amount of them.
6. It is not that Japan can not FIGURE out how to effectively style vehicles (they could buy the same designers for Christ sake). They CAN NOT afford the same styling. Style costs money. Many people do not realize, but cheaper cars utilize less sophisticated geometry even for the exterior sheet metal. Sophisticated body panel is more expensive to produce. The difference could be small, but when we are talking about millions of them - the savings are huge, and, if luxury car lines can bear it, the mass production can not.
So. We didn't care for the MDX or the Touareg (sp?). We liked the Pilot (more cause of price, reliability, options- the styling is fairly bland) and then we drove - and loved - the XC90. Here's the thing tho - the Pilot has better safety scores than the Volvo according to many publications. The Pilot, however, has no side curtain airbags and seems to be missing some other key safety features. What gives? Is the Volvo really the safest of the mid size SUVs? Please help... there's a whopping difference in price between these two, and I need some justification for it.
Also - it's a preemptive search, but a dealer quoted a $499 lease on the 2.5T with Premium, Versatility, Metalllic and Rear Park Assist. 51 months (yikes) and nothing down. Good? Bad? Laughable?
Thanks
In my role as a director for an international bank, I have seen a reports by McKinsey & Co. and others comparing manufacturing efficiencies of several Japanese auto plants with German and Swedish ones. It was pretty clear that the Japanese plants had certain production efficiencies that European plants don't. As I recall, the Tochiga (spelling?) Honda/Acura plant was deemed both one of the most efficient and one of the highest quality control plants in the world.
Also, your preference for selecting individual options is similar to mine. However, ther is an indirect correlation between option list length and efficiency. Just compare a $52k-$65k Boxster S with a choice of over 80 individual options with a $32k Honda S2000 with none, other than color choice. Both are limited production, sold in similar world-wide volumes. Both offer similar performance and class leading technology - perhaps with the nod going to the S2000, if either.
To further go off topic
Not to say Volvo is Ferrari, just arguing for the sake of arguing (as my wife would say).
McDonalds is pretty efficient, with a consistent quality too.
not trying to dis acura, i just can't figure why they did that.
Do not even think twice - XC90 is the safest mid-size SUV on a market. The testing procedures are such that some of the unique XC90 features do not even have a chance to influence the result.
For instance:
- roll-over test is performed at relatively low speed, so a superior stability control system of XC90 does not come to a play, as Pilot can manage that speed too. However in a real life, you might need to swirl at higher speeds, and I am sure that the XC90 will be more stable than Pilot.
- there is no test, for instance, when car is actually is rolled, so there is no test that will tell you a superior strength of XC90's roof, or effrectivness of side curtains, etc.
MB, BMW and Volvo do put more into their cars than Honda/Acura. And all three of them are relatively small, with Volvo be the smallest.
If you want to compare effectiveness (cost wise) - you need to compare VW or Renault. Their cars are very competitive in price with the Japanese cars, both here and in Europe.
I was referring to scores compiled by Consumer Reports. The Pilot received "Excellent" marks for the 4 areas (ie driver, passenger front, driver passenger side) and a "good" (which is the best) offset score. The XC90 got all excellent but for passenger side, which was still "very good." Offset was also "good." Granted, one of four - and only a small step down from excellent - isn't much. But given the lack of side airbags and gyroscope technology I was surprised they were close at all. Anyway, you have a good point - the tests are ikn controlled situations. I was just looking for more hard data on body construction, etc.
I don't know what "publications" you are referring to. Go to the XC90 vs MDX discussion board and there are some pictures of a couple of MDX which were involved in accidents. The Pilot is essentially the same vehicle.
The XC use High strenght steel for the roof structure. It's stability control is the best in the business. Yes the Volvo is the safest of the mid size SUV's.
Looked at the pics. Yikes. And as you probably saw after you psoted your message, I was pulling from CR - but saw the same results elsewhere. Of course, they were results from the same tests. But again, they put the Pilot at a shade safer (within those parameters). Basically, I was looking for stats that support the Volvo being safer. Trust me - it is the SUV I want to buy. But I want to be able to justify spending the extra dollars.
The scores you referenced are based on the NHTSA and IIHS crash tests. You are better off using the scores in their original formats. They can be found here, along with the supporting details:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/ncap/ and http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ratings.htm
Overall vehicle safety is a very complicated business. If you are truly interested in safety, I strongly recommend you visit the following sites that provide information on the factors that contribute to vehicle safety, along with the descriptions and limitations of current crash testing. NHTSA testing is especially deficient in my opinion. Their rollover ratings are almost laughable.
http://www.safecarguide.com/exp/intro/idx.htm
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/sfsc.htm
That said, I again must ask those that are advocating Volvo safety above all else - would you have voted for or against the maximum speed governor that was kicked around a few years ago? The idea was to increase the maximum highway speed in the US to 70 everywhere, but, in exchange, all US cars would have a fuel cut off at 72 mph. Some hair brained congressman (guess the party) came up with that one. Died in chambers.
The point is a good one, however. The laws of physics, which specify that force is mass times velocity squared, mean that a single vehicle accident at 70 mph will have twice the "destructive power" as a one at 50 mph and about 5 times more than one at 35 mph. Going an extra 10-15 mph on the highway in a Volvo would likely put your family in more danger than driving the speed limit in a Hyundia, in the event you were in an accident. It's not an either or - you can buy a safe car and drive safely - but I seem to recall a few posts here or in another forum of a Volvo driver testing the limits of the stability system with family in the car.
I'm not throwing stones - I drive an M5 - but the speed with which I drive with my wife and kids in the car takes into account my familiarity with these laws of physics.
Sorry to digress. My brother in law and his wife are down to debating the XC90 (V8 model) and the LR3. I think it's funny that SHE feels safer in the bigger, taller, heavier LR3 and HE likes the way the XC90 drives.
Volvo XC90 Upgrades to a V8 (Inside Line)
Steve, Host
I'm sure you meant to say kinetic energy (mv2/2) and not force.
tidester, host
This projects pad life to 35,000 miles front and 120,000 miles for the rear! Not bad for such a heavy vehicle.
Just yesterday I noticed a little whine from the back. One wheel bearing was starting to get noisy and was replaced under warranty. This is not unusual up here, with all the de-icing salt, rough roads and cold.
Also, the paint on one wheel was flaking out. Oddly, underneath was the exact same color, so it was not very visible. They ordered a new wheel anyway.
That's it!
This projects pad life to 35,000 miles front and 120,000 miles for the rear! Not bad for such a heavy vehicle.
The elation will disappear when you reach the 22.5k service.
Seems they wear faster the thinner they get.
Ours was fine at 15k but had to be replaced at 22.4k.
Volvo Rockets Into Space With XC90 V8 Promotion (Inside Line)
Steve, Host
What do you think? Too dark? I wished they had the ash gold or crystal green for the V8.
OSD xc90 v8 in May 2005.
Xenon lights also require the Prem pkg.
As for the GX, I am not at all impressed with it.
Its slow, its a truck and that rear door would drive me nuts. They should be discounting the hell out of that thing because its not up to the standards of the class.
If the only reason that you are considering it is because of the discount I'd re-think that. You might save a couple of bucks now, but down the road you may wish you spent a little more and got something else. I see it every day, someone got a "deal" on a car and now they can't stand it. Needless to say they are buried in their "deal"
It has the most attractive interior in the class. The Lexus Nav is second in useability only to Acura's. The GX does, in fact, accelerate better than the Volvo T5 & T6 (albeit not the V8). The GX is exceptionally capable off-road. And the adjective that describes the typical GX's reliability is "bulletproof."
And I say all that as an XC90 (co-)owner.
I'd knock the GX for its useless, view-obstructing third row seats.
I have done some internet shopping (about 10 dealers) for the V8 and have gotten bid as much as $800 off sticker already in NoCal... this is before the cars were even in the dealers... Dealers aren't ready to heavily discount, but there aren't people lined up around the block for these cars either. I don't think the V8 isn't unique enough to hold MSRP for very long... especially with T6 prices so low.. Work the email, you may be surprised what you get back...
I still can not get off my sand box and comprehend what is preventing people of getting $4000 discount right of the bet, with NO negotiations, by filling up a simple one page OSD order form. Even an air fair for two is free. Are we getting so lazy that an opportunity
a) save a lot
b) get true VIP sales experience
c) spend a romantic weekend (at very least) with your significant other in Sweden for free
is not attractive enough???
This is definetily a matter of opinion. I like an XC90 interior much more.
And when it comes to the exterior styling - I call it "disfigured 4Runner". The new 4Runner is very proportional, at the very least, all that plastic above the wheel wells make GX look totally out of proportion from behind. It is simply unattractive for me.
But this is just MHO.
We (my family) consider XC90 THE most attractive mid-sized SUV on a market now, with BMW X5 being distant second.
However, there are some drawbacks. They would like to have a new vehicle NOW and not have to wait 3-4 months. And then wait another 5-6 weeks after they return from the trip. In addition, they have two children that they are bringing along, so the entire 5 day, 4 night trip will cost them about 1/2 to 2/3 of the savings.
Several years ago, I picked up a 328i convertible through BMW's ED program. In addition to the manufacturers discount of about 7%, I was able to negotiate another 5% off from a dealer who wouldn't discount the car in the U.S. a nickle. He was willing to discount the ED price to $1,000 over the ED invoice because it did not affect his allocation of US cars. I traded that car 2.5 years later for my current M5 and was given only $3,000 less than I paid for it (not including taxes).
Volvo's OSD program is one of the better ones, but they do not discount OSD prices like some BMW dealers will. As such, if you are buying a hot car like the XC90 V8 currently is, the effective OSD discount is substantial. For a lower demand car, much less so. The OSD price on a new T6 was MORE than the heavily discounted US price for one sitting on the dealers lot.
tidester, host
If you trying to establish credibility for your answers, I would not brag about what you know about wireless technologies, your background or where you work for since Bluetooth has absolutely nothing to do with GSM, CDMA or any of those celluar wireless technologies.
Bluetooth is a short range wireless technology that makes your phone become an integral piece of your car’s instruments, letting you dial from your dashboard, speak into an installed microphone, and listen through your vehicle’s stereo speakers. When you reach your destination, you just pick up your phone and take it with you.
Mark my words, you will see a backlash against Bluetooth technology within 3 year time period, pretty much the same way as what we see now with the HTML based e-mail. Yes, it is cool, it is sexy, all that universal connectivity, but it also pretty much opens your computer to the world.
Microsoft spends millions and millions of dollars trying to recover all the security breaches they have created on their own through the HTML,but they still can not match a security of non-HTML e-mail services.
So, I will rather have an integrated cell phone system like on older BMW or Volvo S80 executive, when phone is integrated via plug.
It does the same thing - dial from the dashboard, speak into an installed microphone, listen through the speakers, but can not be picked by the hacker in the car next to you.
I do not know anybody, who went through the OSD and did not LOVE it.
I guess we’ll all be buying anti-virus/firewall software for our cars and phones
With that being said the idea of dropping your phone in your car and having it sync-up with your car is pretty cool; and cool is what is all about (until the punk at the light next to you hacks your car’s computer and engages your ABS system as they peel away laughing throwing cigarette butts at you heh)
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-5449795.html
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,117203,00.asp
http://www.thebunker.net/security/bluetooth.htm
Our corporate cell phone provider, Verizon, does not offer Bluetooth phones. The reason - security.
Volvo is giving away a grand prize during its promotion for the new V8 XC90....
it is a trip to the edge of outer space....
you can sign up at the volvo site.....there is a disclaimer about dangers of space travel and rest is standard stuff...
The V8 is a much better deal on OSD now and for the foreseeable future.
How can I pass that up? It's one of the more creative promos I've seen in a while!
tidester, host
It takes more than 5-6 month of planning in my circle.
It takes more than 5-6 month of planning in my circle.
LoL, I hear ya. It took us about 9 or 10 months to decide on which one to purchase after several test drives of 6 different SUV's. Since we paid with cash saved up over 6 years (after our previous vehicle was paid off) it was about as far from compulsive as one could get.