Ford's new 5-20 oil
I would like to know more about Ford's new 5-20 motor oil. What is the difference between this and a 5-30 that you can buy at your local auto store. Would there be any bad consequences in using a commercially available 5-30 instead of Ford's 5-20 on a new 2002 Mercury?
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I won't address the issue of whether, or not, it's adviseable to switch to 5W-20 from 5W-30, or long term relability of engines using the lighter weight oil.
Switching from 5w30 to 5w20, I wouldn't recommend doing.
Personally, I would only use it during the warranty period and then switch to a synthetic 5W30.
The dealership changed the oil in my dad's 2000 Mercury Grand Marquis and when warm, 5W20 had the consistency of water.
All this to get another 1-2% fuel economy? I don't think it's worth it.
--- Bror Jace
Although these oils are promoted as "energy conserving" they generally trade a gain of less than 0.1 MPG in Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) for shorter useful engine life.
FORD which has previously designed cars to have 10 year or 150,000 miles life has reduced the mileage life expectation to "beyond 100,000 miles" on vehicles that are operated on SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil.
HONDA only claims "useful life" as 7-years or 70,000 miles in EPA certifications for their CIVIC which uses SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil, while the previous model that utilized SAE 5W-30 Motor Oil was certified for 10 year or 100,000 mile durability.
Since both HONDA and FORD Warranty their NEW cars for ONLY 3-years or 36,000-miles the reduction in engine life expectancy is not a factor.
By contrast Mercedes-Benz recommends use of ONLY Synthetic Motor Oil that is at least SAE 5W-40! This is a recent increase in recommended viscosity from SAE 5W-30. Apparently customer research indicated that engine longevity is more important to typical MB customer than fuel economy.
Even more important is the High-Shear High-Temperature MINIMUM specification in SAE J300. In tables below you will notice that there are "two" SAE 40 specifications, one with minimum HSHT value of 2.9 cP for Automotive Oils (SAE 0W-40; 5W-40; 10W-40) and the other for Heavy Duty Oils (HDO) (SAE 15W-40; 20W-40; 25W-40; 40).
This double specification is at insistence of heavy duty engine manufacturers who have required HSHT viscosity limits consistent with good engine durability in high-load, severe service operation. HSHT value of 3.7 cP or 27% more viscous oil at 150ºC (300ºF).
Yes, a 27% increase in viscosity makes a difference between Automotive engine that lasts 100,000 miles and Truck engine that lasts 1,000,000 miles!
When you consider that most Automotive Motor Oils are ONLY 3 cP
I have received the spec sheets for both conventional, synthetic and hydrocracked from both Valvoline and Quaker State.
Valvoine conventional, Duralube Synthetic Blend, Maxlife, and Syntech were the ones I compared on the Valvoline side.
Quaker state was Conventional, 4 X 4 Synthetic Blend, High Mileage for Older Engines and Ultra Premium Full Synthetic
Synthetic blends were a little bit better on flashpoint, but generally were close to conventional oil. None of these specs listed anti-wear abilities.
Hydrocracked were much closer to synthetic oil on the sludge test, and flashpoint, but were only a little better on cold starting. They were about 5 degrees colder than conventional.
In Synthetic flash point was the highest. Cold weather starting was truly superior, and the additive package was amazing. This is the one that really should be used for extended oil drains. On most Sludge tests quite frankly, it is inadequate. Most can do double the time of conventional oil tests without any problems.
TBN for a conventional oil is 4. TBN for Synthetics is generally 10. Generally the higher the TBN the better the additives and durability.
All Climate 5W-20 is formulated with advanced additive technology and highly refined, premium quality basestocks to protect todays most sophisticated engines against wear, undesirable deposits, contamination, nad viscosity and thermal breakdown under service conditions. It is specifically designed to meed the demanding requriements for 2001 model year Ford, Mazda and Honda engines where a 5W-20 is recommended.
Valvoline 5W-20 Motor Oil advantages.
High Temperature Protection: -- resists breakdown in the most severe engine environments.
Low Temperature Protection: Flows easily at low temperature startups.
High Detergency: fights formation of sludge and varnish.
Wear Protection: contains anti-wear additives that dramatically reduce engine wear
Reduced Burnoff: formulated with advance base oils that resist vaporization, thus helping to reduce emissions.
Fuel Economy:Improves fuel economy throughout the life of the oil.
Meets API SL, ILSAC GF-3, Energy Conserving, and specific Ford Recommendations.
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I compared the specs and based on that information, and the constand referral to highly refined basestocks, it is pretty clear to me that this is a hydrocracked oil. Can't be sure because Valvoline considers much of this to be proprietary information.
While not as good as synthetics, hydrocracked oils are a very good quality.
Where did you get the info on the HSHT??
If the manufacturer recommendation is 10w20, then follow it!
With that weight oil I would never consider 10K intervals. Like the sludge site, compliance with the time and distance on the severe schedule will protect you during the warranty period.
If the manual says use 5W-20 and change the oil after 10,000 miles then do it. Less money out of your pocket and less time at the garage. Engines are made much better today then they were just 5 years ago. They burn much cleaner, require less fuel and have tighter construction. It makes sense that a thinner oil is necessary to lubricate the engine.
It is interesting to hear about all the new oil technology. This should tell you how far oil has come in the past 10 years. Remember the 90's when oil companies had us all brainwashed about changing the oil every 3000 miles. Now the recommentdation is every 5000 miles minimum but mostly 7500 and 10,000 miles. Which is great. it's the first step to the US becoming less dependent on foreign oil.
No doubt this same issue occurred when the switch was from 10W40, the common weight years ago, to 10W30. When the 5W30 weights first came out there were numerous reports of the oil saving gas but not protecting as well, so same scenerio here
The auto manufacturers don't want your car to last more than 100,000-150,000 miles. This new, ultra-thin 5W20 oil is designed to allow them to sneak by some EPA CAFE rules ... not designed to protect your car better. The tolerances on every Ford and Honda have NOT changed between 2000 and 2001.
Tentax, you'd be better off not typing in all-caps.
joe3891, the word "synthetic" does not necessarily mean what it did a few years ago. The oil producers are diluting their formulas with heavily processed crude oil and calling it "synthetic" even though REAL synthetic is made from ethylene gas (polyalphaolefin) or the combination of certain acids and alcohol (polyol ester).
--- Bror Jace
Since it is a breach of accepted netiquette to intentionally type messages in ALL CAPS on forums such as this, I'm afraid you'll have to get used to your messages being ignored by people who do not like reading them.
Effective communication requires cooperation between the sender and the receiver but the sender's role is more important and he/she should do everything he can to get his message across clearly and effectively.
--- Bror Jace
By Chris Pirillo
http://www.writerswrite.com/journal/dec99/pirillo1.htm
"This part of the chapter is not just for newbies; even if you've written e-mail for years, review this section carefully. Certain unspoken conventions are very important to keep in mind when you're composing e-mail messages. If you were a novice before, you need to be a professional now.
ONE OF THE BIGGEST MISTAKES PEOPLE MAKE IS TO TYPE WITH THEIR CAPS LOCK ON. All-caps might look cool to you, but experienced users will write you off as an idiot. It's okay to use all-caps for headings and/or titles in your messages, or even to EMPHASIZE certain words, but anything beyond that is equivalent to screaming at someone. Do you like being yelled at?"
If you change your oil yourself, I would use 5W-30 until the 5W-20 becomes more readily available and cheaper. Right now Jiffy Lube, Walmart (in PA) and Lube Express are charging a premium for this oil which isn't fair to the consumer.
BTW, the 2 vehicles I have seen switch to 5W-20, Ford Focus (new for 2000) and Honda Civic (major re-designed for 2001) including some engine modifications. So yes, the standards for these two vehicles has changed. I'm not aware of any other vehicles in the Ford or Honda line recommending 5W-20. But I'm sure if there are some, you will tell me.
On another note, in todays world of Firestones, Ford fiascos, Castrol mis-leading advertising, Toyota sludge, constant manipulation of quality for the sake of profit how can one possibly totally believe what a vehicle manufacturer states as the best lubrication for long term durability. They have one goal in life, stockholder value via mazimixing proft. The fine line is to give the customer the perception of quality while building in obselesence. Now if they published reports of their long term mileage tests with the 5W20 etc but to just say use it??? Personally, i will not purchase a car that recommends this weight until long term results are known. There are too many alternatives out their with proven weight recommendations. Do you honestly believe that Honda will replace engines on thousands of units where the recommended oil was 5W20 when they blow at 100,000 miles, NO WAY!!!!!
Enron apparently didn't have the goal of stockholder value or maximizing profit. Should we give them a civic responsibility award?
Maybe the 'average' owner deserves such treatment as they put little thought into maintaing their car ... but I am certainly not average in this respect.
And, as others are fond of pointing out, their motives and goals are not necessarily parallel to my own. They want to meet CAFE standards cheaply, stupidly and possibly foolishly.
I prefer to obtain VASTLY superior fuel mileage through the use of higher tire inflation pressures, superior quality electronic components, synthetic lubricants and a careful driving technique.
--- Bror Jace
BUT! (Notice the CAPS), after warranty, I say thicken up folks! I could care less if my vehicle gets .5 mpg better under perfect testing conditions....I don't want to replace the motor!
I consider the 10w30 about as thin as I can stand (I live in NC so don't have any problem with extreme cold), I prefer 10w40 (I know, a lot of VI but have never had a problem with it,,just change it very regular...) and personally, during the summer.....gasp!!!.....believe that 20w50 is the way to go....After the motor has worn in it has some wear that opens up the clearances anyway.
The folks that want us to use 5w20 just want the vehicle to rate a little better gas mileage (CAFE)(heavy push by the gov't probably can't blame them) and could care less about us keeping it long term....Personally I am more interested in keeping the vehicle a long time, I get kinda used to'em.
That's my opinion, I'm sticking to it, y'all with me or am I swinging the bat in all directions???
see y'all in a bit
Rando
http://www.salemboysauto.com/faqs/faq-29.htm
"If you drive your car hard and you are in the city 95% of your time, then you can use either a 5-30 or 10-30 SH or SJ oil. We should use an oil that protects us between the temperature range we live in. Using a 5W-30 or 10W-30 oil will generally give you 1-3% better gas mileage than a 30 weight or 20-50 weight oil. Thinner is better, both for your engine and your pocketbook.
I know that putting a thinner oil in your car goes against everything you have been taught. Most of us cringe at the thought of putting a 5W-30 in our engine. First, you must understand what motor oil is supposed to do.
1. Oil is used to provide lubrication between two moving parts to reduce wear. Most internal engine tolerances are measured in thousands of an inch and many tolerances are no thicker than a human hair. So, if you wanted to fill an opening with oil that was no thicker than a human hair, which would do a better job, peanut butter or sewing machine oil?
2. Oil is used to gather or absorb heat from the internal engine parts and carry it away. Let's say two pieces of metal are rubbing against one another at say...50 times a second or 60 MPH. If we want to flush this joint with oil and keep a continuous stream of oil running through and over it to gather the heat generated and carry it away, would you use peanut butter or sewing machine oil?
3. Oil is also used to flush the metal particles from the bearings of your engine. This one should be easy...peanut butter or sewing machine oil?
4. 90-95% of all mechanical engine wear occurs in the first 10 seconds of a cold engine start up. That initial cold start wear can equal hundreds of miles of warm engine wear.
So.... you it's your choice, peanut butter or sewing machine oil?
There are situations that call for a thicker oil. In the event your car consumes an abnormal amount of oil between oil changes, using a thicker oil would be beneficial to you. A thicker oil would, in this case, help you control the oil consumption. An abnormal amount is generally described as more than 1 quart every 1000 miles or so.
But keep in mind that every car made in 1993 and newer recommends a 5W-30 or a 10W-30. We must work to overcome the idea that thicker is better unless of course there is a reason.
I hope by now you are convinced that peanut butter type oils no longer belong inside your engine. We now know thinner is better."
BUT,
For an engine that has more than 50k on it, even a modern engine, during the heat of summer, I still think some additional viscosity comes in very handy. When it is in the 90's and the engine is trying to handle the heat of the ac running plus normal generated heat...even 20w50 is not all that thick. The comparison of peanut butter and sewing machine oil is a bit extreme, I would probably have used corn oil(10w30) and peanut oil(20w50)...with water being the 5w20...
I do think that during cold weather thinner oil performs great, helps avoid lack-o-lube for that first minute or two.
I still believe that the manufactures are under significant pressure to get better gas mileage and thinner oil helps (a couple of percent may help the CAFE but doesn't help me).Any gas mileage gains come at the expense of engine longevity which they are NOT under as much pressure to provide..and is MY main concern.
It would be nice if there was a 5w50 that REALLY performed like the 5w50 implied without all the VI side effects..I guess I'm still just part of that old F--- club too huh?
So that say a 5w-30 oil eventually became something closer to a 5w-20 after so many miles. Also oil drain intervals are getting longer and longer. Some manufacturers reccomend up to 10,000 mile change intervals.
While, like many others, hesitate on the 5w-30, my thoughts are as follows. If it is OK to run regular 5w-30 oil at 5,000 miles when the viscosity has broken down some, why is it not OK to run synthetic 5w-20 which will not break down nearly as much if at all? I can see resistance to 5w-20 dino oil, but I think synthetic should be alright - don't know about the blends like motorcraft.
Interestingly it took me a long time to switch from 10w-40 because I thought 5w-30 was way too thin. Part of the reason we used 40 weight back then was to counter the rapid breakdown of the SC rated oil that was used back then - compared to SL (think that is the most recent) that is available today.
Just a personal thing with me I guess, but the only vehicle I ever used 10w30 on , engine died an early death. I sincerely hope everyone else has better luck than me on that issue.
All the arguments for using the thinner oils make sense, just my experience says it does not work for me.
That one engine caused me more $$$ and headache than all the repairs and $$$$ on all my other vehicles so far put together, like I said though, probably just statistics catching up with me...
I don't particularly care for black cats either, and I don't walk under ladders.
see y'all
Rando