I agree, the price is the kind of sticker shock you want to experience. Initial estimates were $16 grand, and I figured that was without ABS given Toyota's a-la-carte pricing strategy.
Think of the engine as the one in the old CRX Si, in fact that had the same 108hp I believe. I have not driven an Echo, but it's the same powertrain. Those aren't slow (again, light weight).
I doubt it'll feel torquey like the 2.4l does, though.
Demographics will be younger, mostly due to the price.
I had been very interested in the Element, mainly for it's boxy shape. But I like the looks, price, and gas mileage of the scion more. That said, driving the Element is a lot of fun, it has a great shifter.
I see this thing as an Echo SUV. They thought the Echo would be popular with kids with price and styling but all it is is CHEAP. The tires on the Scion seem rather small in comparison to the rest of the vehicle. Disproportioned.
The Element is just more car/suv/thing than the xB. The xB is nice and all but lack of cruise control, center mounted gauges, lack of fully-independent suspension, and it's 1.5L engine make the Element the better choice for ME.
Does the base Element even come with a stereo? The stripped DX I drove had a lot less content then the bX will. As Ateixeira mentioned, A/C isn't standard.
I'm also willing to bet that the bX handles just as well as the Element, lower center of gravity and less weight.
The bottom line is, a loaded Element will probably run $22,000 while a loaded bX is about $14,000. I still like the Element better, but I think the bX is the better deal. And that's without getting into the engines, because to me, if you're driving this kind of car, it's not that important. (assuming a basic level of competency)
My 55 year old Mom just took delivery of her new Element. She got a 4WD DX with dealer installed AC, CD stereo w/6 speakers & alloy wheels. She paid 18k for it.
Everyone in my family (especially Mom)loves the car. She has finally parted ways with her 86 Volvo 240. In many ways, the Element embodies what the 240 was back when it was new. I told her not to expect to drive this one for 17 years, but since it's a Honda there's a good chance she very well may.
I think Honda did a great job with the vehicle. While they may say they are targeting the youth market, I suspect they also targeted people like my Mother who want simple, reliable, affordable and extremely practical cars.
I was very close to buying a green ex 2wd in February, but saw a used highlander for the same price and purchased it instead. I still drive by Honda dealerships and look at the element. My wife couldn't figure out why I'd want a "Barney Rubble mobile". But, I think at the end of this year I'll purchase the Element. Maybe some used will be available. Anyway, If you think you want it, GO FOR IT! By the way, I'm 54.
I'm seriously considering the element if it can fit my needs. I'd like to use it as a camper on the weekends. Don't need anything fancy - just a semi-comfortable place to sleep. Can you get a decent night's sleep with the chairs flattened out? In the winter, I'd like to use it to sleep in when I go snowboarding, maybe with an electric blanket plugged into the outlet. I'm sure it will be colder then a hotel room, but would the battery last through the night? I love the fact that you can buy the wrap around curtains for privacy - seems like they really put a lot of thought into this vehicle.
Post #2209, Yeah but at least you CAN get AC in the Element as a factory option. Not so in the xB. I will not knock anyone for buying it, it's just not for me. The Element is more car and I would be willing to pay for it.
Highlander should have good resale. By then you could get a new Element with all the bugs worked out, it might even be a positive thing.
Is it $4 grand more car, that's what you have to ask. Different shoppers will come up with different answers.
I had cruise installed by my dealer, and it's even covered by my warranty. It was less than $300. No big deal at all, I'm sure it'll be the same with the Scion.
I just placed an order for an Element 2WD EX with side air bags. The dealer told me that it should arrive in mid-June, maybe a week or two earlier. Does anyone have any more specific estimates on timing for Elements with the side air bags?
Kun3 - I've slept on the folded seats of my 99 CR-V. It's not a perfectly flat bed, but the contours actually worked well for me. All I did was crack the windows and use a 20 degree sleeping bag (this was January in the White Mountains). It was cold when I got out of the bag, but you really can't prevent that.
I'm not certain, but that A/C may be port-installed rather than factory. That's how Subaru does it, i.e. not on the assembly line. Does anyone know for certain how Honda does it?
If so, essentially that's exactly the same as having a dealer add cruise to an xB.
It's really no big deal. They put cruise on my Forester at the dealer. Took an hour of labor. There are cut-aways for it, and the switch is identical to the stock switch.
Plus, even dealer installed it'll cost about 1/4 of the price of the A/C option.
Thanks. A/C is standard on the CR-V, right? So then Honda doesn't do that.
I'm sure dealers install A/C on some of the Elements that come without it, though. I fact I recall isellHondas mentioning that specifically. I think they charged $1300 or so for it at his dealership.
check out the www.honda.co.jp website for the Japanese version of the "E". Ropedart, you might be interested in that it's a 5 passenger version....the hard plastic/cupholder portion of the rear seats is gone and there is a lap belt for the middle position. Wish we had the option to go with 4 or 5 seats here. They replaced the single cupholder in the rear of the centre "console" with a 2-cup holder...can't imagine anyone's arms being long enough to reach it from the back seat....should have molded a few cupholders into the rear doors. Another plus is the ability to slide the rear-seat back & forth....see the seat animation feature. Probably doesn't have the travel of the CR-V seat but it would be nice to be able to decrease the limo-like room in the back and increase rear cargo capacity somewhat. My wife is warming to the Element, so it's back on our radar. If 5 passenger/sliding rear seat options appear here, it would be more suitable to us. Actually, my ideal "E" would be a slightly-stretched 6 passenger version (2+2+2) where the seats would line up to make a bed or fold flat into the floor. That would be way-cool.
It was hard to see but I see the lapbelt. Its just attached to the seat and not the floor. I'm guessing that the seatbelt requirements for Japan are not as tough as American requirements. The same case for the sliding mechs. It would not pass American DOT tests. Who builds this unit Japan or Ohio?
I have an EX with a roof rack. When I drive under 40 it is very quiet but when I get up to 60 the wind noise is VERY loud. The reasons may be (A) The boxy shape (B) The Roof Rack (C) I have been driving a Volvo Sedan and I am not acclimated to SUV wind noise or (D) Something Else. Does anyone have the same problem and a solution? Should I seach out a wind deflector for the rack? Thanks.
On another forum, a couple of owners with roof racks had wind noise problems that were resolved--the installer had not put in the rubber seals that prevent wind from entering the holes at the rack attachement points. One guy reported that it made a loud "coke bottle whistle" noise that you could here from pretty far away at higher speeds. they may need to replace the rack if they don't still have the seals.
Varmint......my wife's from the Phillipines and I know they have big families over there, so I guess a 10 passenger CR-V would come in handy! Seriously, though, I think six passengers in some degree of comfort is more what I had in mind. Even in something as big as a Grand Caravan, the 3-passenger seat ('cause it's between the wheel wells) is not that comfortable for 3 adults. An Element with the CR-V's length and 2+2+2 seating would be perfect for us.
The more I think about it, amongst other reasons, why the Element is a 4 seater. If it was a 5 seater it would really hurt CRV sales. The Honda decision was done to protect the CRV product line from being cross-shopped directly. At first it did not hurt CRV sales but from the last report CRV sales dropped slightly. I don't think its going to come back up and its only 2 years old. Once people start to see Elements on the street and get used to the look and accept it the CRV will get into trouble. The CRV is a well respected mature reliable car with excellent fit and finish. However, the Element is cheaper, looks a whole lot bigger, more fun to drive and just plain cooler with similar performance. In time, if the Element was a 5 seater, it would just kill the CRV. If you need 5 seats please buy the CRV. It needs saving. I said a year ago the Element would create angst with Honda SUV shoppers. Juice and I was surprised the Element prototype sprouted cup holders in the middle about a year ago. It was as if Honda wanted you to not even think of putting a person there.
Ropedart - I expect we'll see more content additions for the CR-V with the Element selling so well. They may bring back the SE trim level to boost sales as the CR-V gets a bit older. That'll separate the two.
I don't think the middle seating position was an issue. That seat is most often used by Moms with kids in child seats. That was not the target audience for the Element, so I expect the designers figured no one would care. With things going the way they are (older folks buying Elements), Honda might just have to add it. I doubt we'll see it for a while, though.
I for all of my 14 driving years have always driven and owned Chevy's. My first was a Baretta which I loved and my second a Tracker which I also loved.
I have not owned a car for two years after my Tracker was totaled by a red-light-runner. I chose not to get a new car but then after a year of not having one was on the hunt again.
First I wanted a Saturn VUE but the options I wanted put it out of my range. Then The Pontiac Vibe, which was perfect. But since late last year I have been waiting on the release of the Chevy Equinox, which is everything I want.
When I first saw the Element I though "Oh God, what an ugly little vehicle", then I realized it was really quite cool. After seening many on the road recently I simply had to get a close look. And upon doing so started to betray my determination to always buy American.
At 32 years old I first thought the Element was too young for me, but now im not so sure. Bad thing is the majority of the folks I've seen driving them are folks much older than I.
Anywho, I'm a member of a car sharing program here in the Metro DC area and we just received two new Elements. I've already made my reservation to take one with me to the beach for a weekend.
If I fall for this vehicle, it will be my first departure from a domestic brand.
It's hard to determine what "American" means. For instance, the Element is made in the USA.
Say you get a Vue Redline instead. That car will get a Honda V6, and who knows, the engine might be made in the plant in Ontario, Canada.
The Vibe is a Toyota design rebadged as a Pontiac. It's essentially a Corolla with a Celica powertrain.
Jeep is now German owned, and many Americans are boycotting German products (!).
Subaru is Japanese, right? Well, the biggest shareholder is GM, and most cars they make are built in Indiana. Saab and Isuzu are wholly owned GM subsidiaries.
Volvo now belongs to Ford. You want a funny example? Look at the V40. It's Swedish right? No, Ford owned so it's American. But no, it's made in a Mitsu plant, so it's Japanese. But no, the plant is in the Netherlands, so it's Dutch. But wait, Chrysler owns Mitsu, so it's American. But wait again, Daimler really owns Chrysler, so it's German! Argh, what is it?
The auto economy is globalized, so you can't even tell any more. Buy the most competitive product for the price, which supports Capitalism. That's American.
The JDM and UK Accord use a 190 hp version of the 2.4L that uses regular gas (rather than the TSX's which suggests premium). Since all JDM and UK Accords are built in Japan, that engine is more of a possibility. They'd have to ship them to the Swindon plant (since the US market is supplied by both plants), but there are existing supply lines for that route.
That could prove interesting for the Element, too.
"Buy the most competitive product for the price, which supports Capitalism. That's American."
Thank you so very much for the lesson in globalization however, I assure you I am not in need of it. To be quite frank, I did not even solicit your lesson in economics.
I am quite aware of 95% of the things you mentioned.
What I mean by "American" is, traditional domestic US auto-makers. Those would be GM, Ford and Chrysler. What you mentioned is very true but why should you be offended if I choose to purchase domestic vice an import?
If you read my message without the intent of attacking me you would have realized that I said I also owned a Geo Tracker, which is just a re-badged Suzuki Sidekick but obviously you think that because I want to buy an American automobile that I'm anti import.
Fact of the matter is, I'm pro America and no ones gonna make me feel bad about it.
Having said that ......... I still can't wait to get into an Element.
I don't think Ateixera, was attacking you... he was just commenting on the state of the auto industry re: globalization.
No reason to get offended.... we're just talking cars here, nothing more.
Now this is NOT directed at you npgmbr ...
"Buy the most competitive product for the price, which supports Capitalism. That's American."
That's the best advice right there. IMO, buying an inferior product just because it is "American" is the UN-patriotic thing to do.
The traditionally American car companies can build cars that are better then the imports, but as long as people blindly buy their inferior products, they have no need to and won't.
I know what your saying, but your making an assumption that I buy domestic because they are American.
That assumption is incorrect. When I look at a car the first thing I notice is it's looks. Imports have never attracted my attention until Toyota released the RAV4.
Yes many people think domestics are inferior products but my two Chevrolets were great vehicles for me. I never experienced any of the negetive things many people say about domestic brands.
However, in the past few years I have seen imports like Nissan inparticular take really drastic strides to get more drivers into their vehicles. That I think is great because it gives the domestics a big run for their money.
And as a result, were seeing more innovation and faster redesign of model line-ups from all the auto-makers.
Varmint - put the 190hp in the SE only, and build all those in Japan. I bet they sell. It's the best equipped Odysseys and Pilots that have the highest demand.
My "rant", as I called it, was not meant to be a lesson or an attack. Sorry if it sounded that way. I never implied I thought you were anti-import.
I am not offended by your purchase choice, in fact choice is what I support most.
Besides, I'm from Brazil, so you'd have to buy a Mini Cooper S (engine made in Brazil) to make me happy, if that were even important to me! Or a new VW Golf (production moved from Mexico to Brazil).
I am a little surprised that you keep Chrysler on your list despite the German ownership. Zetsche has the thickest accent I've ever heard in my life. It was a hostile takeover of a traditional American company, plus they were less than honest about the "merger of equals".
Comments
Think of the engine as the one in the old CRX Si, in fact that had the same 108hp I believe. I have not driven an Echo, but it's the same powertrain. Those aren't slow (again, light weight).
I doubt it'll feel torquey like the 2.4l does, though.
Demographics will be younger, mostly due to the price.
-juice
They do feel cheaper, but they are priced accordingly, and they seat 5. Gas mileage is fantastic, too.
If you don't need AWD, they'll probably be more economical to own, put it that way.
I still prefer the Element, BTW.
-juice
Plus, we can't complain about cruise not being standard when A/C isn't standard on the Element.
-juice
I'm also willing to bet that the bX handles just as well as the Element, lower center of gravity and less weight.
The bottom line is, a loaded Element will probably run $22,000 while a loaded bX is about $14,000. I still like the Element better, but I think the bX is the better deal. And that's without getting into the engines, because to me, if you're driving this kind of car, it's not that important. (assuming a basic level of competency)
Honda Element vs. Toyota Scion xB
Steve, Host
Good idea to create that topic, Steve.
-juice
Steve, Host
Everyone in my family (especially Mom)loves the car. She has finally parted ways with her 86 Volvo 240. In many ways, the Element embodies what the 240 was back when it was new. I told her not to expect to drive this one for 17 years, but since it's a Honda there's a good chance she very well may.
I think Honda did a great job with the vehicle. While they may say they are targeting the youth market, I suspect they also targeted people like my Mother who want simple, reliable, affordable and extremely practical cars.
Thanks.
I lived in Japan for 8 years so by now you'd figure I was used to seeing funky box like cars like the Life and March.
I'm seriously considering the element if it can fit my needs. I'd like to use it as a camper on the weekends. Don't need anything fancy - just a semi-comfortable place to sleep. Can you get a decent night's sleep with the chairs flattened out? In the winter, I'd like to use it to sleep in when I go snowboarding, maybe with an electric blanket plugged into the outlet. I'm sure it will be colder then a hotel room, but would the battery last through the night? I love the fact that you can buy the wrap around curtains for privacy - seems like they really put a lot of thought into this vehicle.
thanks for any feedback
Hey, maybe they'll make that a DIO and call it the snowboarders' special! Right in target demographic!!!
You can't get AC in the xB as an option...because it's STANDARD :-)
-Andrew L
Agreed. But I don't think it's worth the extra money.
Is it $4 grand more car, that's what you have to ask. Different shoppers will come up with different answers.
I had cruise installed by my dealer, and it's even covered by my warranty. It was less than $300. No big deal at all, I'm sure it'll be the same with the Scion.
-juice
GM is selling kits for the Aztec and now Avalanche, but they're charging prices that are downright absurd - $400 for the Avalanche's.
-juice
Sorry, time for some coffee. ;-)
-juice
I meant that you CAN get factory AC in an Element if you want it, but you can't get factory cruise control on the xB.
If so, essentially that's exactly the same as having a dealer add cruise to an xB.
It's really no big deal. They put cruise on my Forester at the dealer. Took an hour of labor. There are cut-aways for it, and the switch is identical to the stock switch.
Plus, even dealer installed it'll cost about 1/4 of the price of the A/C option.
-juice
I'm sure dealers install A/C on some of the Elements that come without it, though. I fact I recall isellHondas mentioning that specifically. I think they charged $1300 or so for it at his dealership.
-juice
Ropedart, you might be interested in that it's a 5 passenger version....the hard plastic/cupholder portion of the rear seats is gone and there is a lap belt for the middle position. Wish we had the option to go with 4 or 5 seats here. They replaced the single cupholder in the rear of the centre "console" with a 2-cup holder...can't imagine anyone's arms being long enough to reach it from the back seat....should have molded a few cupholders into the rear doors.
Another plus is the ability to slide the rear-seat back & forth....see the seat animation feature. Probably doesn't have the travel of the CR-V seat but it would be nice to be able to decrease the limo-like room in the back and increase rear cargo capacity somewhat.
My wife is warming to the Element, so it's back on our radar. If 5 passenger/sliding rear seat options appear here, it would be more suitable to us.
Actually, my ideal "E" would be a slightly-stretched 6 passenger version (2+2+2) where the seats would line up to make a bed or fold flat into the floor. That would be way-cool.
Wheelz4 - You might be interested in the 10 passenger CR-Vs Honda sells in the Phillipines.
-juice
Seriously, though, I think six passengers in some degree of comfort is more what I had in mind. Even in something as big as a Grand Caravan, the 3-passenger seat ('cause it's between the wheel wells) is not that comfortable for 3 adults.
An Element with the CR-V's length and 2+2+2 seating would be perfect for us.
-juice
He had only 4 CRV on the lot.
The Element is actually selling above projections nationally. I guess it's a regional thing.
-Andrew L
I don't think the middle seating position was an issue. That seat is most often used by Moms with kids in child seats. That was not the target audience for the Element, so I expect the designers figured no one would care. With things going the way they are (older folks buying Elements), Honda might just have to add it. I doubt we'll see it for a while, though.
One thing they have to address is wheel size, the CR-V gets just 15" while the cheaper Element gets beefier rims and tires.
Bring on the Open Air, that thing was neat.
-juice
I have not owned a car for two years after my Tracker was totaled by a red-light-runner. I chose not to get a new car but then after a year of not having one was on the hunt again.
First I wanted a Saturn VUE but the options I wanted put it out of my range. Then The Pontiac Vibe, which was perfect. But since late last year I have been waiting on the release of the Chevy Equinox, which is everything I want.
When I first saw the Element I though "Oh God, what an ugly little vehicle", then I realized it was really quite cool. After seening many on the road recently I simply had to get a close look. And upon doing so started to betray my determination to always buy American.
At 32 years old I first thought the Element was too young for me, but now im not so sure. Bad thing is the majority of the folks I've seen driving them are folks much older than I.
Anywho, I'm a member of a car sharing program here in the Metro DC area and we just received two new Elements. I've already made my reservation to take one with me to the beach for a weekend.
If I fall for this vehicle, it will be my first departure from a domestic brand.
Uncle Sam, please don't beat me. :-)
Say you get a Vue Redline instead. That car will get a Honda V6, and who knows, the engine might be made in the plant in Ontario, Canada.
The Vibe is a Toyota design rebadged as a Pontiac. It's essentially a Corolla with a Celica powertrain.
Jeep is now German owned, and many Americans are boycotting German products (!).
Subaru is Japanese, right? Well, the biggest shareholder is GM, and most cars they make are built in Indiana. Saab and Isuzu are wholly owned GM subsidiaries.
Volvo now belongs to Ford. You want a funny example? Look at the V40. It's Swedish right? No, Ford owned so it's American. But no, it's made in a Mitsu plant, so it's Japanese. But no, the plant is in the Netherlands, so it's Dutch. But wait, Chrysler owns Mitsu, so it's American. But wait again, Daimler really owns Chrysler, so it's German! Argh, what is it?
The auto economy is globalized, so you can't even tell any more. Buy the most competitive product for the price, which supports Capitalism. That's American.
-juice
That could prove interesting for the Element, too.
"Buy the most competitive product for the price, which supports Capitalism. That's American."
Amen.
Thank you so very much for the lesson in globalization however, I assure you I am not in need of it. To be quite frank, I did not even solicit your lesson in economics.
I am quite aware of 95% of the things you mentioned.
What I mean by "American" is, traditional domestic US auto-makers. Those would be GM, Ford and Chrysler. What you mentioned is very true but why should you be offended if I choose to purchase domestic vice an import?
If you read my message without the intent of attacking me you would have realized that I said I also owned a Geo Tracker, which is just a re-badged Suzuki Sidekick but obviously you think that because I want to buy an American automobile that I'm anti import.
Fact of the matter is, I'm pro America and no ones gonna make me feel bad about it.
Having said that ......... I still can't wait to get into an Element.
I don't think Ateixera, was attacking you... he was just commenting on the state of the auto industry re: globalization.
No reason to get offended.... we're just talking cars here, nothing more.
Now this is NOT directed at you npgmbr ...
"Buy the most competitive product for the price, which supports Capitalism. That's American."
That's the best advice right there. IMO, buying an inferior product just because it is "American" is the UN-patriotic thing to do.
The traditionally American car companies can build cars that are better then the imports, but as long as people blindly buy their inferior products, they have no need to and won't.
That assumption is incorrect. When I look at a car the first thing I notice is it's looks. Imports have never attracted my attention until Toyota released the RAV4.
Yes many people think domestics are inferior products but my two Chevrolets were great vehicles for me. I never experienced any of the negetive things many people say about domestic brands.
However, in the past few years I have seen imports like Nissan inparticular take really drastic strides to get more drivers into their vehicles. That I think is great because it gives the domestics a big run for their money.
And as a result, were seeing more innovation and faster redesign of model line-ups from all the auto-makers.
My "rant", as I called it, was not meant to be a lesson or an attack. Sorry if it sounded that way. I never implied I thought you were anti-import.
I am not offended by your purchase choice, in fact choice is what I support most.
Besides, I'm from Brazil, so you'd have to buy a Mini Cooper S (engine made in Brazil) to make me happy, if that were even important to me! Or a new VW Golf (production moved from Mexico to Brazil).
I am a little surprised that you keep Chrysler on your list despite the German ownership. Zetsche has the thickest accent I've ever heard in my life. It was a hostile takeover of a traditional American company, plus they were less than honest about the "merger of equals".
Just my opinion, feel free to disagree! :-)
-juice