Inconsiderate Drivers (share your stories, etc.)

ruking1

So if you knew, why did you ask? Or just trolling the gutters when I was clearly speaking of traffic?

Six o'clock is a common navigation term. But I was clear and succinct in saying "6" as a flight term.

whahappan

Actually, the limits are recommended by engineers usually using the 85 percentile rule, which is the speed at which 85 percent of traffic is at or below, afik. Then the limits are often set by the politicians/bureaucrats 10-20 mph below this recommendation ostensibly for "safety" reasons, but really for revenue generation. I don't remember the specifics exactly, but there have been studies, some by the NHTSA that showed the average speed on a given stretch of highway was unaffected by raising or lowering the speed limits. However, accidents slightly increased when the limits were lowered, and actually decreased when the limits were raised. Hope this helps.

gee35coupe

While it may not be as debatable as conspiracy theories and all, they are talking about imposing a 55 mph speed limit to "save gas".

That has nothing to do with safety. Nor really does it have anything to do with saving gas since if they really wanted to do something about the worse offenders, they would require the builders of gas guzzling SUV's to abide by something close to a MPG requirement. Heck they don't even HAVE to post MPG if they don't want to. Why should I slow down if my car could get better MPG's at top speed than those trucks do?

That's what folks are talking about when they say speed limits are set for other reasons other than what the "engineers" say is "safe".

"Of all speed related fatalities, 94 percent occurred on roads with a posted speed limit of 55 miles per hour or less."

That quote should put most of this whole argument to rest. There ya go. 94% happened on roads with a lower than 55mph speed limit. Since we have pretty much agreed we are talking about speed on otherwise empty rural interstate, that means that that's only 6% of fatalities happened there.

And I saw that report too. I didn't get the point of what they were trying to say. So the police give a 10 mph cushion. It makes perfect sense to me. Why would you want to write a ticket for less than 10mph over on an interstate. That would be ignorant and would move the "speed limit" law to pure harrassment.

Could you imagine a policeman telling you that driving 67 in a 65 was unsafe? With a straight face? When he probably hit 80-90 mph to catch you in the first place. Yeah sure.

imidazol97

There was a story on ABC nightly news (I think that was the network) about needing to enforce speed limits better. It talked about how everyone believes there is an automatic buffer amount (7-10) mph over that's allowed. The story said that higher speeds cause more injuries and deaths.

Perhaps someone knows how to find this in the network's archives of their Monday night 6 pm news shows.

whahappan

fatalities per 100 million miles driven is the only relevant statistic. For example, if California has 30 times the fatalities as say, Wyoming, does this mean it's 30 times more dangerous to drive in California? No, it just means the population is 30 times higher, hence the number of vehicle miles driven is 30 times more, same odds. Simple, eh? (Just an example, I'm not sure what the numbers actually are.)

kdshapiro

Maybe simple, but it's not correct. It's impossible to normalize the statistics for some of the wide open roads out west with travel in Manhattan where the average speed is 10mph.

Of course, that is why 94% of accidents happen at under 55 mph. In the locales with huge vehicle concentrations, cars can barely move. My average speed per week according the trip computer is 25 mph. So it's safe to say if I get into an accident in most probability I will be under 55 mph.

And when you normalize these numbers across the continental United States, the number are so high level they are absolutely meaningless.

But some believe that some numbers are better than none no matter how flawed these numbers are.

gee35coupe

The ACCIDENTS don't happen under 55. They said they happen in areas where the SPEED LIMIT was under 55 mph. I'm sure with all the rural highways and interstates there are, the percentage of roadway with limits > or = 55 is much higher than 6%. That makes that quote even more telling. Most rural 2 lane roads have a 55 mph limit.

whahappan

Actually, it is correct. I wasn't comparing rural roads with Manhattan. I was merely pointing out that comparing number of fatalities without taking into account the number of vehicle miles driven is useless. The NHTSA's statistics are for the entire country, year to year. (Yes I know, they also do it by state also, but we don't need to discuss every state :P ) The only way to derive any meaning is to compare the rate per vehicle mile driven; i.e. if miles driven goes up by 10%, but fatalities only go up 5%, are the roads more dangerous? No, they are safer. Hope this clarifies.

oldharry

The reason most officers do not write tickets for speeding less than 11 over, is because unless there are other agrevating conditions, the judge is likely to throw out the charge if the perp pleads "honest error".

Harry

whahappan

A couple of years ago I was driving in the left lane of a 4 lane local road. As I approached a red light, this bozo in an SUV (What else?) pulls out of a gas station to my right, immediately crosses into my lane cutting me off, then drifts over into the left turn lane at the intersection, crosses BACK into the left through lane, forcing me into the right lane. (Hope that's clear :confuse:) I refrained from honking the horn until the second cut-off, then when I looked over at them at the red light, the woman passenger gave ME the finger! I didn't even gesture at them first, just kind of shook my head as if to say "What the heck was that?", but I guess it just shows the mentality of some people.

kdshapiro

"Hope this clarifies."

Yep It does. Thanks. But it doesn't change my opinion the numbers are essentially meaningless.

whahappan

A few years back I was on the QEW (multilane, limited access highway) in southern Ontario (some the most oblivious drivers and pedestrians - sorry to say it, but true.) I had the cruise control on doing about 70, in the middle lane, just one car in the right lane ahead. I slowly reeled him in, and just as I was passing him, he veered quickly into my lane, almost sideswiping me. No signal, no warning, nobody in front of him to warrant a lane change, utterly incomprehensible. I was able to swerve into the left lane, as it was empty, and when I glanced at him he was totally oblivious, as if he didn't even realize what had just happened. I didn't even honk, I was dumbfounded, and just went on my way.

aquaticexplore

all roads with speed limits less than 55 to prevent injuries and deaths. All road limits shall be forthwith raised to a mimimum of 60, all in the name of good governance.

The QEW is a zoo.

li_sailor

If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess.

What was he professor of? Nihilism? :=) While I understand the notion that statistics can be selected, etc. to distort, the notion that one cannot cull any useful info or come to any reasonable conclusions from NHTSA data is without merit. Of course, I don't think the professor was wrong, but rather the overeaching conclusion from what he said.

There are thousands of variables that need to be considered for their affect in order to say anything meaningful about any one of them.

No, only to be absolutely, 100% sure to 100% accuracy. Thankfully, knowledge and conclusions can be obtained from far less. Otherwise, we would know nothing about our ultimately unknowable (to 100% accuracy) universe.

Most of the variables you list are fairly constant over a large population set and therefore can be discounted.

For example, data can show that more accidents occur at nite than the day. To claim "but maybe it rained more often at nite, so really it's safer during the day" would be specious. Rain is fairly evenly distributed over day and nite and does not affect the conclusion.

kdshapiro

"Rain is fairly evenly distributed over day and nite and does not affect the conclusion."

Actually that is incorrect and this may be the source for all of the confusion. If you talk to a meteorologist they will tell you there is a proclivity for a better probably of rain at certain times within a 24 hour time period.

Therefore rain is not evenly distributed over night and day and the whole kit-and-kaboodle is just plain incorrect. What they heck are we going to talk about now?

li_sailor

li_sailor, I don't care. Go as slowly as you want, just stay out of the passing lane.

I probably drive faster than you and I pass when I need to, which is often. It's just that I have no illusions about reality.

my quote, fronm the NHTSA:For vehicles traveling 10 miles per hour above or below the average speed, crash involvement rates are 6 times those for vehicles traveling within 10 miles per hour of the average speed."

you:
I dare say that backs up my assertion that it's the speed differential that causes more problems than just speed.

I never disputed that assertion, but it's not related to the quote I cited since that applies to all "differentials" (including none), not just large ones.

The relationship you try to establish between absolute speed and crash involvement is far from "intuitively obvious."

I qualified that as not obvious to everyone :=)

li_sailor

So if you knew, why did you ask?

I didn't ask about what I knew. I asked what you meant. I know about the Theory of Relativity, but if you refer to it as T, I would have no idea what you meant.

But I was clear and succinct...

In all the years that I've been reading your posts, I've yet to have those words come to mind :=)

li_sailor

That's what folks are talking about when they say speed limits are set for other reasons...

Sure, and often it's just to raise cash. But the question (I thought, but who knows...) was whether higher speeds increase risk of accident and bad result. Actual posted speed limits (and the rationale for them) is quite irrelevant to that.

94% happened on roads with a lower than 55mph speed limit.

Um, not exactly. Non-interstates 55 mph: 44%. Interstates 55-65 mph: 12%. Non-interstates under 50 mph: 44%. So, 56% occurred on roads at 55 mph and higher. And the vast majority of accidents occur on local roads, due to intersections, etc.

I didn't get the point of what they were trying to say.

They were trying to say that the risk of accident and the severity of the result is greater at higher speed. Which is true.

li_sailor

Actually that is incorrect and this may be the source for all of the confusion.

If only :=) Since only one statement referred to rain, that seems unlikely.

If you talk to a meteorologist they will tell you there is a proclivity for a better probably of rain at certain times within a 24 hour time period.

Really? Which times? More at day or at nite? And give us the 10 day forecast while you're at it :=)

...the whole kit-and-kaboodle is just plain incorrect.

I agree. I am now totally against kit-and-kaboodling as Inconsiderate.

alfox

I'm beginning to comprehend where most of the inconsiderate drivers come from...

xwesx

The incessant nit-picking! When that becomes the basis for a response, it is obvious the conversation is over. :sick:

"If you torture your data long enough, eventually it will confess."

What a beautiful statement! This is the essence of statistics: data manipulation. Translated to alternate terminology, be careful how you draw statistical correlations from a data set because if you want it to support an assumption, it will support it, but that does not make it true! Correlation does not equal cause and effect. Statistics can paint a wonderous masterpiece from an otherwise meaningless mountain of numbers, but you have to view the result with an open mind to come to an accurate conclusion.

Hasn't anyone anything inconsiderate to write about?

xwesx

Ohio? :P Hey, that was not very considerate.

imidazol97

>Ohio
What's Ohio about? I resemble that.

Cellphones are still my big beef. Some people must have cauliflower ear. I'm almost at the point that I wish they do get cancer of the brain from the radiation...

Left turners not paying attention and moving between oncoming cars because they're preoccupied with their cellphone -- that's a problem Then there 's the speeders with a cellphone pushed against their cheek.

xwesx

LOL! I was hoping you'd appreciate that one (for humor value, as it was intended entirely as a joke).....

Eh, cellphones.... better than someone sucking down the last few drops from a Big Gulp as traffic in front slows to a stop...... 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another..... Distractions are distractions.

imidazol97

>joke).....

This thread really needs humor. I got lost in the nit-picking and stayed away. Data misuse is one of my favorites.

Cellphone conversation takes attention away more than drinking (soda) while driving. I recently had to make cell calls while driving and it did distract me. The soda can or Speedway Big Gulp doesn't distract me nearly as much. I suppose some folks might be enjoying their Big Gulp too much and get lost in it.

It's the preoccupation on the cellphone that's got me aggravated. I'm tempted to scan the internet for jammers again.

delange

School parking lots are much scarier to me than most roads. Try picking up kids safely when there are a hundred other moms in HUGE SUVs, medium SUVS and minivans (and I am in a 10 year old Volvo 850). There are always a few in a big hurry that feel they have the right to drive where they want. Honestly, I personally have never seen a child in any danger, but can't say the same about other cars.

I haven't been hit for over 15 years on the open road. However, I've been hit so many times in carpool line, that my car has been completely repainted, one section at a time. Everytime that happened, my car was in park, once even in a parking space.

imidazol97

>hundred other moms in HUGE SUVs, medium SUVS and minivans (and I am in a 10 year old Volvo 850). There are always a few in a big hurry that feel they have the right to drive

How many of those have a cell phone in their ear?

delange

Enough that many schools around here now have a no-cell-phone policy in the school parking lot.

I've even caught some friends talking on their phone to another friend in the car behind them.

imidazol97

>no-cell-phone policy in the school parking lot
Wow, distraction is so bad even the school has made cell phone rules for the parking lot.
What happens if they are caught talking on cell phone and driving around kids? They get detention???

chillnyc

Has anyone noticed how inconsiderate school bus drivers have become lately?

li_sailor

Speaking of a chill in NYC, looks like we're getting one now, thank goodness.

Has anyone noticed how inconsiderate school bus drivers have become lately?

Not really, but give it up...what have you seen?

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they're PO'd...I can't tell you how many times I've seen oblivious drivers go right past them in the opposite direction when the lights are flashing and even when the stop sign is unfolded...it's as bad as the crosswalk ROW problem.

chillnyc

Maybe it could just be this one particular bus driver I see everyday. Not signaling when changing lanes....it drives me crazy. Oh well the school year is almost over.

li_sailor

That drives me crazy too. I'm sure that bus driver does it in his regular drive, too.

I think that's up there in "inconsiderate acts while driving". Talk about lazy...how much trouble is it to signal? I'll admit to doing it in the rare case when I'm on the interstate with no one within a 1/2 mile, but otherwise I always signal.

snakeweasel

Not sure about the bus drivers but I got stuck by one stopped school bus today. seems like the first grader (or around that age) didn't want to get on the bus. Just stood there looking at the bus not moving all the while the bus had the flashing lights on and the stop sign out.

snakeweasel

Ok I am coming into work this week going down a road that is two lanes in both directions. I am traveling north bound and traffic for whatever reason comes to a dead stop and backs up for several blocks. Now this one semi truck with a trailer going west on a side street decides he wants to make a left turn into all this stopped traffic. So he starts into the left turn to go north on this road. But since the traffic is already backed up past this stop he can only start to nose into the traffic. This means his trailer is now blocking the south bound traffic and no one moves in either direction for many long minutes.

This truck couldn't make the turn due to stopped traffic and his insistence on making the turn blocked traffic going the other way. Why couldn't this idiot think for a minute and realize he is making a bad situation twice as bad.

chillnyc

that make people lose the sense that they were given. You have some that park in handicapped spaces and clearly there is nothing physically wrong with them. You have those that just pull into a parking space any which old way. Then you have those that just pull out of the parking space without even looking. You also have those that think the parking lot is their personal racetrack and then you have some that just leave the shopping cart in the middle of the parking spot waiting for you to move it.

lonestartj

Still hanging around in here, eh li_sailor?
Now I remember why I haven't been on this site in nearly a year.
PS- I'm trading in the Trailblazer for a Hummer H3 soon. See you on the highway.

xwesx

You have some that park in handicapped spaces and clearly there is nothing physically wrong with them.

It's their eyesight. If they park any further from the building, they might get lost. They drive by memory, so if they cut you off, it isn't because of the cell phone in their left hand or the burger in their right, they honestly didn't see you! :P

li_sailor

I'm hangin around in a lot of places. How 'bout you?

Now I remember why I haven't been on this site in nearly a year.

Reading your insightful, topical and considerate post, I remember, too!

I'm trading in the Trailblazer for a Hummer H3 soon.

Downsizing? Wow, the guy from Tejas is turing into an antik. Whoda thunk it?

I'd get 2 to compensate.

PF_Flyer

Let's back off of commenting on each other please... thank you!

PF Flyer
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gee35coupe

I have kidney failure. You would never know it looking at me most of the time. But sometimes I have needed it. One time I was parking in the "blue zone" and a guy commented that there didn't look like anything was wrong with me. I told him " well it's a good thing I didn't depend on HIM for the right to park there". What an anus.

Good day to be on I-75 coming out of Florida today. 04 Honda Odyssey 100mph from Tampa to the boarder. Nice.

PF_Flyer

I'm just dumbfounded... someone riding a motorcyle without a helmet, which is perfectly legal... I might think it's dumb and not in your best interests, but it's a decision you have the right to make in some states. But as far as I know, a motorcycle is a "four extremity" vehicle. You need both hands and both feet to safely operate one. So the guy I saw talking on a CELL PHONE while riding would have to be a candidate for a Darwin award wouldn't he???

On a related note, while cruising along with the traffic at 75 on I-80 yesterday, I saw a bike approaching from behind at high speed. Whe he went past me, I'm estimating he was going somewhere from 100-110mph, no helmet, not a racing style bike. A second guy was a bit behind him, coming along at the same speed, wearing a helmet, but not looking comfortable at the speed. As he passed me, he came up on a semi in the right lane, and when he hit the "dirty air", his back tire waobbled pretty good. He's gonna need to do some laudry for sure!

kdshapiro

Certainly people don't ask us here at Edmunds for the easy way to leave the earth. Riding a motorcycle at 100+ without a helmet sure is one of them.

xwesx

Hahah...... at 100+, a helmet's primary role is keeping the wind out of your eyes! :surprise:

PF_Flyer

The helemted rider of the second bike was not wearing a face shield or goggles, just sunglasses. His face was all contorted like pictures you see of the astronauts during training.

I'm just glad I didn't get to see them turn into grease spots on the highway!

imidazol97

Continually see problems from the distraction by cell phones. Just look around you at all th people flying by feel as they talk on their cell phones.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050621/us_nm/health_cellphones_dc_3

euphonium

After the crash, the driver was heard to say, "I didn't think talking on the 'phone while tuning the radio, would distract me so much. I also didn't think driving with poochie in my lap would result in the air bag exploding and killing her. I thought it was supposed to be a safety device."

chillnyc

Is using the turn signal not taught in Driver's Ed anymore? I was behind this young kid (How do I know that he is young? Because he was driving Mom's Volvo wagon) and we both just happen to be going in the same direction and not once did he use his turn signal to tell me where he was going and mind you there was several left and right turns and lane changes made during the ten minutes that I was behind him that I finally got fed up and passed him so I wouldn't have to be subjected to it anymore. Has it really gotten that difficult to use the turn signal?

stickguy

that would require putting down the big gulp and/or the cell phone. So yes, in their mind, probably too difficult to move their index finger.

snakeweasel

Actually if you read the article not only is it cell phones but any activity in the car such as talking to a passenger. Take this from the article

"Directing attention to listening effectively 'turns down the volume' on input to the visual parts of the brain," he added in a statement.

So logically it is not just cell phones but conversations with passengers and even listening to the radio.

That being said I was behind this one car stuck in stop and go traffic on I-55 going to work last week. The driver of the car was talking to the person in the passenger seat. About half the time the drivers head was turned towards the passenger. As traffic was creeping forward so was this guy with his eyes firmly on the passenger of his car carrying on a conversation. I would have hated to see what would have happened if the guy in front of him stopped unexpectedly.