A slow driver is one who drives slower than conditions allow. I.e. Slower than the flow of traffic. Slower than the lane he is in is going. Slower than the trucks on the road. Someone who is just dawdling along oblivious to everything around him. Going say 55 on a wide open road with traffic piling up behind him but no one can get past because it is a fairly busy road. That is a slow driver. Note I said nothing about speed limits. A slow driver is not one who necassrilly goes right at or below the limit, however if he is holding traffic that wants to go faster, than he is a slower driver if conditions and traffic indicate a need to go faster.
So.... The speed limit, more or less, is discarded, Is that your point? The speed limit sign is open to interpretation given time of day, traffic conditions, weather conditions etc....
What if you're in a section of interstate that has a sign that says "TRUCKS USE FLASHERS BELOW 40 MPH but yet the speed limit has been posted as being 65 MPH.... What is the meaning of that? Should the police pull over large vehicles going less than forty because they have become incredibly hazardous to other motorists? A definition has been put forth that slow vehicles cause accidents, this seems to have warrant.
As you approach the grade, a sedan pulls into the left lane to pass the truck. They "appear" to being crawling but in reality, they're doing at least 70 in a 65 mph zone..... You on the other hand are doing 75 to 80 and are now outraged that they have "apparently" clogged the left lane and slowed YOU up.....
Did they really slow you up? Should they accomodate you and burst up to 80 or should you accomodate them and slow up a few ticks?
So.... The speed limit, more or less, is discarded, Is that your point? The speed limit sign is open to interpretation given time of day, traffic conditions, weather conditions etc....
That's been my experience. Over the years, I've found that each major road has its own defacto speed limit, which may or may not come close to the posted limit.
I try to drive at a speed that allows me to pass approximately 75 to 80 per cent of the cars on a multi-lane highway. In that way, I make progress without attracting the attention of law enforcement. So far this has worked; I've been driving since 1966 & haven't yet been ticketed for a moving violation.
I also make it a point to stay out of the left lane unless I'm actually passing a slower vehicle. And before I move left, I make sure that I'm not getting in front of a car that's going much faster than I am. I don't need the aggravation that comes from being tailgated.
The idea is to cover ground quickly without undue stress.
I wasn't saying the limit is discarded (although I feel that A LOT of the limits placed on our roadways are more for revenue generation than actual safety), but that any driver NOT following the flow of traffic or any driver being an hindrance to other drivers whether through oblivious means or purposely causing an obstruction i.e. left lane cruiser, is a slow driver, inconsiderate and should be pulled over and ticketed.
If a road has a limit of say 55 MPH, and traffic is actually flowing at 55 MPH - meaning good spacing between all vehicles (when does that ever happen though) and there are ample passing zones, then I would not consider a vehicle traveling at 55 MPH to be a slow driver. BUT.... if the road has a limit of say 55 MPH and traffic is flowing at 65 MPH and begins backing up behind a vehicle that is going 55 MPH, then technically, he is not breaking any laws, but he is impeding traffic. I would say that he is a slow driver.
A road I frequently travel has a limit of 45 MPH. It's a 4 lane highway with a center turn lane. The defacto speed is usually around 50, sometimes even 55. However, I have been on this road and caught myself going 60. Yet I am still being passed, or at least keeping up with traffic in front of me and not pulling away from traffic behind me. Other times traffic is flowing at 40. For no apparent reason. It'll be heavy traffic in both lanes so trying to forge ahead and force your way to go faster will do no good, so I stay put at 40 and get on with life. So.... in the times when traffic flows at 55 or even 50, someone going 45 would be a slow driver, even though he is maintaining the speed limit. In this instance, the posted "limit" is more or less discarded. I've even had patrol officers flow right along with traffic that is going 55 MPH on this road. (Usually, if you're going 60, it's a good bet you're gonna get pulled over if you get tagged)
You make a good point regarding the trucks... on a steep grade, I begin watching far ahead of me to prepare my self for any vehicles getting ready to dart out from behind the truck that is slowing down on the grade...
If the limit is 65, I am probably not going faster than 75. It does bug me when a vehicle will pull into the left lane to pass said truck, but they only go 1 or 2 mph faster than the truck. If the limit is say 65 and they maintain 65, then I really can't complain can I? So I have to slow form 75 to 65 for a couple hundred feet. If said limit is 65 and traffic is flowing in the left lane at say 70 or even 75 and a car that is the right lane traveling 55, pulls to the left lane to pass the truck climbing the grade, I would expect and hope that they would realize traffic in the left lane is going much faster than they are are and adjust their speed to accordingly at least until they get past whatever they are passing and move back over to the left lane. That is called considerate driving. If he were a considerate driver he would also realize that traffic is moving faster next to him and perhaps wait to make his move until the lane he needs is clearer, or adjust his speed as he moves over so as to not clog a whole lane of cars traveling faster than he is.
If I am passing someone, and I can tell someone behind me is wanting to get past, I will increase my speed a little so that I can complete my pass as quickly as possible. If someone pulls over into my lane and decides to go slower than I am, (say 70 in that 65 zone) then I will hang back an appropriate distance until he has room to move over and then I will increase my speed again. It doesn't bother me as long as they are at least maintaining the "posted limit". If they go slower or barely crawl past whatever it is that they are passing (when they have no reason to) then it irks me, but I don't tailgate or ride their bumper. I just deal and get on with life. I like to go faster than the "posted limit" but usually never more than 10 over.
Interesting viewpoints from everybody. It's funny because I feel like I've been a "ghost" inside your vehicle and watching different drivers.
I think the "left lane campers" do exist but are far more rare than one might think. I've seen people get "trapped out" in the left lane because disgruntled motorists behind them dart back to the right lane (or farther right lane) to get around them.
I am a resident of the right lane, always a couple ticks slower and because of this, it enables me to be a disinterested third party, casually watching the circus act that the left lane has become and the zombies that inhabit it I've seen some strange antics for no other reason than childish impatience and lack of cooperation. Don't even bring up lane discipline.
Drift off the accelerator and rediscover the right lane, you'll be in for a treat. Don't tell the zombies though, I like all the space over here!
Drift off the accelerator and rediscover the right lane, you'll be in for a treat.
That's for sure! One of the most interesting things to see (driving related) while traveling is the behavior of other drivers in and around cities; it is truly bewildering. I guess, though, if you are part of that day in and day out, you can get so caught up in it that you do not see the foolishness of it all.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Many times when I worked the freeways, and if I noticed the traffic in front of me was slowing down which was evident by their brake lights coming on, and if, there was a lead car in usually the left hand lane at speeds of 10-20 mpn lower than the maximum, I stopped and cited them.
It was not so much the max speed limit as much as it was in my opinion, was the vehicle slowing the flow of traffic and/or was that driver creating congestion.
I have mentioned the vehicle on n/b I 5 coming up from Bakersfield, the slow driver in the left land driving at 35 mph as 20-30 vehicles including mine behind him. Almost all of the vehicles behind this gentleman changed lanes and sped up and once past this driver, changed back in the fast lane and increased their speed to the limit of 70 mp.
The real issue for me if I was still on the CHP, was, is that driver impeding the flow of numerous by the slow speed? If I concluded yes, I stopped the car and cited the driver.
And if the driver is traveling the max. speed, i.e. usually 65 posted or 70 posted I did not stop because there was no violation. I guess the best way to say it is was the driver traveling too slow for conditions and does he/she create congestion/or danger (if other drivers get upset and drive dumb) or not?
This was automatic in the left lane, but I did know other CHP officers zap a slow driver in the middle lane. And finally, I stopped an elderly gentleman in the left lane of the Eastshore Freeway, traveling 15 mph, honest!!! And yes I cited him. :shades:
"It was not so much the max speed limit as much as it was in my opinion, was the vehicle slowing the flow of traffic and/or was that driver creating congestion."
I understand that. I was out West I think and just as the speed limit sign said "70" it also said "Minimum Speed 50". If someone finds it reasonable to do 45 mph on a high speed roadway, they obviously do not understand physics and the dangers this creates for other motorists - especially when traffic is light. They need to be pulled over IMMEDIATELY. I think this activity is actually more dangerous than the speeder.
A member of law enforcement I spoke to said "It's usually an elderly driver terrified of night/bad weather driving or the vehicle is having mechanical problems." I'm not sure but I think the actual citation is "Obstructing a public thoroughfare" or something like that.
For better or worse, difference in speed is common factor when vehicles traveling in the same direction collide, that's for certain. I have hauled a few loads between Fairbanks and Anchorage that have required significantly reduced speeds (30-50 mph on a 65 SL road). It is absolutely amazing how much traffic is on a major highway, even when it seems "light" on any other trip (where the driver can actually go the speed limit!).
Emergency flashers, attentiveness, and courtesy have seen me through all these trips with no problems but, especially when a tractor-trailer is bearing down on you 30-40 mph faster than you, serious situations can materialize rather quickly.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
I was out in the yard, getting ready to have some fun with a yellow jacket nest, when up the street I heard a series of three high-pitched beeps, the screeching of tires, and then an anti-climatic sort of crunch, more akin to jumping on a cardboard box than metal smashing. Well, cars today are more cardboard than metal anyway, so that would probably stand to reason, but I digres... :P
Anyway, up the street, I saw this scene:
This pic was taken about 10 minutes after it happened. The 300M evidently tried to make a left turn from that side street, and got hit by the Kia Optima which was coming down the hill, in the left lane. The Kia driver moved the car to the side of the road a couple minutes later.
My guess is, both of 'em were inconsiderate. The 300M driver had a good 500 feet of visibility looking up the hill, and back my way, probably 600-700 or more. I took this pic from the edge of my yard, with the camera zoomed in. Speed limit on this road is 30 mph, yet speeds of 60+ are common. So, the 300M driver probably wasn't looking when he pulled out, and the Kia driver was probably speeding. And considering they almost missed each other, as the Chrysler is mostly on the proper side of the road, I wonder why the Kia driver didn't try to swerve to the right?
These things can happen so fast though, that often you don't have time to think. And I think it's probably first instinct to actually swerve in the direction of the other vehicle. If you see someone about to pull out in front of you, most people will swerve to the left to go around it. But, if it keeps on pulling out, you're going to hit anyway, and by that time, it might be too late to swerve back to the right, behind the vehicle.
Anyway, the Chrysler got towed away.so I guess damage was bad on that side? If it hit at the rear wheel, it could have messed up the rim, or thrown it out of alignment. Two cop cars showed up after the fire engine left. And now, about an hour and 15 minutes later, the Kia is still sitting there, alone and forlorn.
Not much of an accident, in the overall scheme of things. But not much happens around here, so to us this is news! And, thankfully, it looks like everybody walked away more or less unhurt!
I wonder why the Kia driver didn't try to swerve to the right?
Maybe he did but didn't have the room (or the 300M didn't get out of the way quick enough). Now let me play devils advocate here for a moment. It is possible that the Kia was driving along at the legal limit and at the very last minute the 300M ran out in front of the Kia. If the Kia continued on its course or even went straight while slamming on the brakes the result would have been a T-bone accident. However the Kia driver applied enough force to slow down and maneuver to the right striking the rear of the 300M. A possible way it happened but not the only way.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yesterday, I was driving in the carpool lane with 3 passengers during carpool hours. Traffic was flowing at about 45 to 70 mph between stretches (there are 3 regular lanes and 1 carpool lane).
I stayed in the carpool lane with the cruise control set at 67 mph (the legal speed limit was 65). There were other carpoolers in front of me, but they were about 15 car lengths ahead of me.
I admit I was drving slower than a lot of people, but I was still driving over the speed limit.
Should I have gotten into a slower lane to let faster carpoolers pass? Does a carpool lane count as a "passing lane" during carpool hours? Or do I have the right to stay camped in the carpool lane and let faster drivers pass me on the right if they wish to pass?
I could have sped up, but I didn't want to risk getting a ticket, and I could have gotten over into the 2nd lane to let the speedies pass, but it was crowded and I didn't want to drive slower than 65.
First off everyone is an inconsiderate driver at one time or another.
Now you stated there were cars in front of you in the car pool lane, was the space between you and them getting greater? If yes then maybe you should pull over and let faster traffic go by. I say maybe because my understanding of car pool lanes is that sometimes some of them limit your ability to get into and out of.
If you were keeping pace with the cars directly in front of you then would moving over do any good for the people behind you? They would just have to slow down again 30 seconds later.
As for the speeding ticket in the vast majority of cases you won't get one one doing a bit more than 67 in a 65, especially if traffic normally goes 70+.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
While I am a strong advocate of the "Keep Right Except to Pass" law, my understanding is that carpool lanes are not passing lanes. I have no beef with anyone who uses a carpool lane and drives the speed limit. If I want to pass them because I want to drive 5 mph over, then I need to move to the passing lane (which in this case is one lane to the right).
Besides, when traffic is heavy, it is hard to move to the right and then get back in. And as Snake says, many times the person behind you will have to slow up in a few yards anyway.
I grew up and lived in San Leandro and Oakland. If you were traveling at the speed limit then you are legal and can continue to drive at 65 mph as far as you desire. But I would offier a caveat that if it's the Nimitz, you may get run over by some nut going 80 mph. And if its the Mac Arthur, probably a little less traffic and still you may get run over.
Be careful there too as you were two miles over the max speed limit and technically breaking the max speed limit law.
In 1968, I was a CHP there for about 4 years before I transferred out and I pictured you driving (almost) legally in the far left/next to the left lane and being tailgatted by some jerk. And the tailgater is dangerous as much as a high speed driver, JMO, because there are big consequences if there is an accident on those two freeways.
And back to 67 mph, I worked with a minority of officers that would cite for 5 mph over the limit and i knew one officer, (thank God he's retired too) that cited for 2 over. To me that was wrong, but then we each had our quirks.)
Nimitz has no shoulders near the red brick wall, and there is some visibility near the 78th Ave. area.
Mac Arthur is like a contour course (also SR 24 from the Caldocott Tunnel to the interchange) and that seemed to make drivers speed up from High Street to the interchange for SF. I.e. it is deceptive.
Thanks for the memories and I hope you, your passengers, and all others here stay safe. What I said, is JMO. :shades:
Hi I was on the highway and the two lanes were merging into one. Traffic was at a crawl and the lane to the left was merging into my lane. A big rig wanted to merge in front of me but I refused because he did not pay me the same courtesy earlier ... He moves into my lane to intimidate me but I refuse to move out of my lane (which would have been off the road onto the shoulder). Who is to blame? Is the blame shared even though he deliberately hit my car and took off?
I agree with this one... If you are keeping pace with the cars in front of you (be they 15 car lengths or 5 car lengths in front of you) then I say you are fine, if you are in the car pool lane. Especially since a lot of car pool lanes "limit" (I say limit because are merely lines on the road and not actual barriers, hence the only thing "limiting" you is the a line on the road and a ticket if caught crossing it) when you can and cannot enter it. If you are not keeping pace with the traffic in that lane, no matter what speed they are going, then yes you are being inconsiderate. If traffic is flowing at 72 MPH (even though the limit is 65) and you decide to go only 67, then I would say you are being inconsiderate. If your only reason for going 67 is because you don't want to get a ticket for going faster, I would say that you will not get a ticket. Indeed, I would bet that an officer would rather you go 72 instead of 67 just to keep traffic moving. I would say increase your speed to match the speed of the traffic in that lane. If someone roars up behind you and insists on going faster than the flow of traffic, you are in the car pool lane, not a passing lane. Let him decide how to get around you. He can either slow up and go with the flow, or he can wait for a break in the passing lane (which would be to the right during car pool hours) and pass...
crazygrrrrrrrrl, carpool lane or no carpool lane, you are fine if you are keeping up with car-ahead at reasonable highway speed with a 15 car gap. optimal gap at that speed is 1.5 car lengths per every 10 mph, so you were almost exactly optimal with your 15 car lengths!
it's unfortunate that anti-vehicle zealouts vote to set road/carpool-lane policies such as california's which increase pollution and fuel-use and cause unnecessary collisions/injuries/deaths.
It's nice to see another bay area native on the forums!
I was driving on I80 (I think it's westbound) coming from Sacramento and heading towards Oakland. I used the carpool lane whenever one was available and saw several carpool cheats along the way. Many of whom cut me off and used the carpool lane as a passing lane.
I sure would love to see more CHP on the freeways. If we ticket every speeder, carpool cheat, cell phone talker, and texter, California's budget deficit would be solved.
I was afraid of getting a ticket. That was precisely why I was only doing 2 mph over the limit instead of following the flow of traffic, which was speeding up and slowing down in pockets. Everyone else was following the changing flow while I was driving steady. I always did catch up with the cars ahead of me, but for the most part, I left about 15 car lengths empty in front.
Had I let the faster drivers over, I would be stuck in the passing lane, which was crowded and slower. It would be difficult to try to get back into the carpool lane because it was going faster/smoother than the other lanes, and there was always a steady line of cars coming.
I want to be considerate, but at the same time, I feel that I shouldn't have to speed if I'm not in the passing lane.
Did you get his license plate and report him to the highway patrol?
IMO you had the right of way, but in real life, might makes right and the bigger vehicle always wins.
I would have let him in. There's a chance you were in his blind spot and he didn't see you down there. Many times I find that they don't even bother to look, assuming that everyone would just get out of their way.
It may vary from state to state, but generally, when a lane ends and traffic has to merge over, it's up to that traffic to merge safely, and if they cause an accident, they're usually held at fault. It might depend on who hits whom, though, and where. For instance, if he's way ahead of you, and only the last few feet of his rig snag you, they might try to say that you had the opportunity to avoid the accident, and hold you at fault. Or, if he managed to get in front of you, slammed on his brakes, and you hit him. But, if he's right beside you and tries to come in, my guess is that it would be the trucker's fault. If he can't fit, it's up to him to stop coming over if you don't let him in, otherwise he runs the risk of hitting you.
Years ago, I knew someone whose girlfriend got run off the road. She was on the left lane and it was ending. She tried to merge over, but a pickup truck wouldn't let her in. The two collided, and she spun out and went off the road, and the truck kept on going. She called the cops, and they told her that she should be thankful the truck kept on going and didn't stop. She would have been held at fault for failing to yield the right of way. Seems to me that leaving the scene of an accident should be an offense though, even if it's not your fault. However, it all probably happened so fast that she didn't get a chance to get the tag #.
Now if there are signs that say "alternate merge", you might be required to let the truck in. But if there was a sign that says "merge right" the trucker would most likely be held at fault.
As for "shared blame", I don't know if that comes into play very often or not. After all, usually accidents aren't always 100% the fault of one person or another. I have a cousin who, years ago, got into an accident when someone ran a red light. He thought he made the big time, and that he was gonna get rich. Well, unfortunately, he had done a jackrabbit start, the second the light turned green. And I'm not sure who hit whom. But, he was found partially at fault, and his "hundreds of thousands of dollars" back in 1981 or so turned out to $200 per week, with no adjustment for inflation, to run out when he turned 65. He lives in his mother's basement now. :sick:
I agree with this one... If you are keeping pace with the cars in front of you (be they 15 car lengths or 5 car lengths in front of you) then I say you are fine
The only real problem I see with that is that around here if you leave that much space between you and the car in front of you it will fill up quickly especially during rush hour. There have been times I have gotten behind someone who wanted to leave a big space between them and the car in front of them only to have other cars fill that space so the driver would fall back to crate the space again only to have more cars fill it up.....
So in effect even though they would have likely followed the car in front of them at the same speed they went slower than the flow of traffic trying to keep a larger distance between them and the car in front of them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Today's winners: graybeard in a Cayenne pulls directly in front of me in urban traffic, nobody behind me, then goes around a corner at 3mph. These boomers are going to be scary as hell when they get to be really old - far too much money than they deserve, and far too little sense. Second place - old [non-permissible content removed] in a TC sits at a free right turn and makes the light sequence before going...selfish old [non-permissible content removed] deserves a beating. Third place - woman pulling a horse trailer pulls on to the road from a driveway in front of traffic...even though after the 2 cars had gone by, there were no others for a mile. Then goes 10 under the limit. Anyone driving something like that should have to pass a rigorous license endorsement, same for motorhome drivers.
And about the previous mention of a cop who would bother with someone going 2 over...it's that kind of BS that makes growing resentment against LEOs to be justified.
I got behind someone like that not long ago - clapped out old Grand Am wouldn't get less than about 10 car lengths behind the car in front of it. There was a steady stream of people passing it on the right, which would make the Pontiac slowly lose speed even more. Highways are no place for the timid.
Not too many cars were cutting in front of me because they didn't qualify as a carpool. Like I said, I was in the carpool lane during carpool hours which isn't the same as a passing lane. If there was no carpool lane, I would have stayed in the 2nd or 3rd lane from the median and let others pass.
I think I would have driven with the flow of traffic had I been driving my own car, but I was driving my mother's 2001 Toyota Avalon, which is like a Japanese Buick. It's a boat of a car. It takes forever to accelerate and even longer to slow down and stop. I wouldn't feel safe driving closer than 10 car lengths behind someone at highway speeds.
Yeah, you being in the carpool lane makes the scenario different.
Around here, I laugh at what I call the "carpool pylons"...as so many so-called motorists around here are afraid to go 60 even on a wide open road, and will crawl down the carpool lanes at 54mph even in the most perfect conditions.
It was the non-cheaters who I observed being VERY impolite to me during 1990s when I often used the carpool lane safely & politely to get past stop&go traffic, while always ridin solo, ridin solo.
Back then it was a ~$268 ticket, but didn't count on insurance points or license points - not a moving violation? Amazingly I never got cited by CHP, but got thousands of impollite hand-gestures from other drivers. Maybe if I had served tea & crumpets through my passenger window before smiling and waving while solo-passing in carpool lane, that would have been more considerate!
Back east the carpool lanes are more like a roach-motel - once you are in , there is a barrier keeping you there for miles. It's a much safer approach - And it prevents using the lane as a passing lane to get around gridlocks. And total fuel use and pollution is increased substantially, exactly as per the design of carpool lanes. Hoorah!
.....I often used the carpool lane safely & politely to get past stop&go traffic, while always ridin solo, ridin solo.
The plans here for the tollway is to make the far left lane in most areas where it's 4 lanes into a car pool lane during the rush hours. However they will let solo drivers use it for an increased toll.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
to ride to work with you so you can use the HOV lane?
For $25 round trip, a teen ager could ride to work, take mass transit home and back again for the return trip. Would a highly paid employee find it worth $25 a day or $100 a week?
For instance, would a Microsoft exec living Browns Point pay to have a passenger so he could travel to Redmond a lot faster? Is this a valued service niche?
"Back east the carpool lanes are more like a roach-motel - once you are in , there is a barrier keeping you there for miles."
They cost more money. I think the reason some HOV lanes are not cordoned off with hard concrete barrier and gates is, simply cost.
The municipalities and highway authorities were probably counting on (hoping actually) for driver respect and altruism in this matter and they could in turn, keep taxes, tolls and fees down.
As abuse continues or rises, I'm sure you'll see the highway department forced into constructing, well, your phrase " roach-motels".
More restrictions, more barriers, more taxes. Don't blame the solo motorist that respected the HOV and resisted the incredible temptation to "just get by this one car".....
As far as enforcement is concerned, My experience with HOV lanes is now almost non-existent but the last time I was in rush hour adjacent to one, the police set up a team and had literally a line of scofflaws pulled over, at least five or six cars!
Good revenue source there!!!!!
Probably a last post in this arena, nothing new. Subtleties will always exist in interpretation of motor vehicle laws, when the motorists start "interpreting" a little too creatively and then whine about restrictions, congestion, tolls, barriers, cameras (please O' please get more cameras) and big brother, who's to blame?
Same old same old, because a certain few can't behave properly on roads and highways, everybody else has to pay.
On a parting note, I saw one of those "Good Sam" stickers on a late model car the other day. It was kind nice to reminisce...
I tried to find an online link about the accident, but I bet they have all been taken down.
Anyway, about 3 weeks ago a local police car, and a police car from the little town (my town isn't very large either) just up the highway,according to the new article had just turned a car loose from a 'mutual respond' at the edge of both towns, and the two police cars were going down the road to a location for a 'talk' when they collided. One turned into the other. Supposed to have totaled both cars.
This happens in our town somewhat often, police car accidents. And the initial accident may be reported in the paper, but never any followup as to any dicipline, etc.
However they will let solo drivers use it for an increased toll.
Presume you mean the Illinois Tollway. How will they set up charging an increased toll for solo drivers to use carpool lane? Will that lane be physically separated from the other lanes?
I recall that LSD in Chicago had physical barriers that raised up, lowered to reconfigure amount of lanes in each direction depending on am or pm rush hour. Lots of stuff to maintain there, plus danger of driver hitting the barrier.
The HOV lanes around Salt Lake City are differentiated by a double white line. Not a physical barrier, just something you could get ticketed for crossing. I only saw a couple of people cross the solid double when I cruised through there last week. To be legal you're supposed to use the dashed lane stripes to enter and exit the HOV lane.
The signage says that solo drivers can pay a toll and use the HOV lanes. There are no booths so you have to get a transponder.
Hey I think the majority of officers do get in at least one accident. When I came out of the academy in my duty station, I backed up into the Captain's vehicle and he was not too happy.
I think many officers have accidents. Several officers either struck a horse, or a deer on the freeway. My last t/c was with a deer at night. No damage to my vehicle but the deer lingered until it died.
The next day when I went back to my patrol area, the deer was gone. I hope it helped feed someone.
What annoyed me about the HOV lanes in the Puget Sound area, is that they apply 24/7, unlike the more intelligent application in the Portland, Oregon area, just 2 hours to the south.
Around Portland, the HOV lanes apply only to traffic headed into the city during the morning commute hours. They apply to outbound traffic during the evening commute. The remainder of the time, HOV lanes are available to all traffic.
This does not seem to create any confusion and it enhances traffic flow during both peak and off-peak hours. When it was suggested that such a system would improve the universally acknowledged horrific traffic problems in the Puget Sound region, the Washington DOT admitted that it would probably improve the situation, but sadly, "funds were unavailable to alter the signage." :sick:
Intelligent traffic management has been deemed illegal in most of western WA. Slowling down traffic gives more gas tax revenue and grants exposure to local businesses located in congested areas. I'm only halfway kidding. It would also make well compensated traffic "engineers" have to do some work.
Carpool lanes on 405 are open to all from 7pm-5am, and on 167 are usually likewise, but the latter is on a transponder-pay system.
I'm just curious if anyone has seen a driver in the three or more land driving in the car pool lanes with two or three fake people aka "dummies" in their car. Happens frequently at the Bay Bridge going from Oakland to SF?
Its rather nice to see the CHP stop them and cite them.
Like when we drop a donut on the floor? Absolutely espcially when you are driving at 70 mph and you drive with one arm on the wheel, and pick up the donut with the other arm and then dust off the donut by wiping it on your leg.
How about disposing your coffee by throwing it out the window while driving on the freeway and then you discover the window is shut?
Oh well my pants can be cleaned and the window can be washed but my ego sure suffered.
Comments
What if you're in a section of interstate that has a sign that says "TRUCKS USE FLASHERS BELOW 40 MPH but yet the speed limit has been posted as being 65 MPH.... What is the meaning of that? Should the police pull over large vehicles going less than forty because they have become incredibly hazardous to other motorists? A definition has been put forth that slow vehicles cause accidents, this seems to have warrant.
As you approach the grade, a sedan pulls into the left lane to pass the truck. They "appear" to being crawling but in reality, they're doing at least 70 in a 65 mph zone..... You on the other hand are doing 75 to 80 and are now outraged that they have "apparently" clogged the left lane and slowed YOU up.....
Did they really slow you up? Should they accomodate you and burst up to 80 or should you accomodate them and slow up a few ticks?
That's been my experience. Over the years, I've found that each major road has its own defacto speed limit, which may or may not come close to the posted limit.
I try to drive at a speed that allows me to pass approximately 75 to 80 per cent of the cars on a multi-lane highway. In that way, I make progress without attracting the attention of law enforcement. So far this has worked; I've been driving since 1966 & haven't yet been ticketed for a moving violation.
I also make it a point to stay out of the left lane unless I'm actually passing a slower vehicle. And before I move left, I make sure that I'm not getting in front of a car that's going much faster than I am. I don't need the aggravation that comes from being tailgated.
The idea is to cover ground quickly without undue stress.
If a road has a limit of say 55 MPH, and traffic is actually flowing at 55 MPH - meaning good spacing between all vehicles (when does that ever happen though) and there are ample passing zones, then I would not consider a vehicle traveling at 55 MPH to be a slow driver. BUT.... if the road has a limit of say 55 MPH and traffic is flowing at 65 MPH and begins backing up behind a vehicle that is going 55 MPH, then technically, he is not breaking any laws, but he is impeding traffic. I would say that he is a slow driver.
A road I frequently travel has a limit of 45 MPH. It's a 4 lane highway with a center turn lane. The defacto speed is usually around 50, sometimes even 55. However, I have been on this road and caught myself going 60. Yet I am still being passed, or at least keeping up with traffic in front of me and not pulling away from traffic behind me. Other times traffic is flowing at 40. For no apparent reason. It'll be heavy traffic in both lanes so trying to forge ahead and force your way to go faster will do no good, so I stay put at 40 and get on with life. So.... in the times when traffic flows at 55 or even 50, someone going 45 would be a slow driver, even though he is maintaining the speed limit. In this instance, the posted "limit" is more or less discarded. I've even had patrol officers flow right along with traffic that is going 55 MPH on this road. (Usually, if you're going 60, it's a good bet you're gonna get pulled over if you get tagged)
If the limit is 65, I am probably not going faster than 75. It does bug me when a vehicle will pull into the left lane to pass said truck, but they only go 1 or 2 mph faster than the truck. If the limit is say 65 and they maintain 65, then I really can't complain can I? So I have to slow form 75 to 65 for a couple hundred feet. If said limit is 65 and traffic is flowing in the left lane at say 70 or even 75 and a car that is the right lane traveling 55, pulls to the left lane to pass the truck climbing the grade, I would expect and hope that they would realize traffic in the left lane is going much faster than they are are and adjust their speed to accordingly at least until they get past whatever they are passing and move back over to the left lane. That is called considerate driving. If he were a considerate driver he would also realize that traffic is moving faster next to him and perhaps wait to make his move until the lane he needs is clearer, or adjust his speed as he moves over so as to not clog a whole lane of cars traveling faster than he is.
If I am passing someone, and I can tell someone behind me is wanting to get past, I will increase my speed a little so that I can complete my pass as quickly as possible. If someone pulls over into my lane and decides to go slower than I am, (say 70 in that 65 zone) then I will hang back an appropriate distance until he has room to move over and then I will increase my speed again. It doesn't bother me as long as they are at least maintaining the "posted limit". If they go slower or barely crawl past whatever it is that they are passing (when they have no reason to) then it irks me, but I don't tailgate or ride their bumper. I just deal and get on with life. I like to go faster than the "posted limit" but usually never more than 10 over.
I think the "left lane campers" do exist but are far more rare than one might think. I've seen people get "trapped out" in the left lane because disgruntled motorists behind them dart back to the right lane (or farther right lane) to get around them.
I am a resident of the right lane, always a couple ticks slower and because of this, it enables me to be a disinterested third party, casually watching the circus act that the left lane has become and the zombies that inhabit it I've seen some strange antics for no other reason than childish impatience and lack of cooperation. Don't even bring up lane discipline.
Drift off the accelerator and rediscover the right lane, you'll be in for a treat. Don't tell the zombies though, I like all the space over here!
That's for sure! One of the most interesting things to see (driving related) while traveling is the behavior of other drivers in and around cities; it is truly bewildering. I guess, though, if you are part of that day in and day out, you can get so caught up in it that you do not see the foolishness of it all.
It was not so much the max speed limit as much as it was in my opinion, was the vehicle slowing the flow of traffic and/or was that driver creating congestion.
I have mentioned the vehicle on n/b I 5 coming up from Bakersfield, the slow driver in the left land driving at 35 mph as 20-30 vehicles including mine behind him. Almost all of the vehicles behind this gentleman changed lanes and sped up and once past this driver, changed back in the fast lane and increased their speed to the limit of 70 mp.
The real issue for me if I was still on the CHP, was, is that driver impeding the flow of numerous by the slow speed? If I concluded yes, I stopped the car and cited the driver.
And if the driver is traveling the max. speed, i.e. usually 65 posted or 70 posted I did not stop because there was no violation. I guess the best way to say it is
was the driver traveling too slow for conditions and does he/she create congestion/or danger (if other drivers get upset and drive dumb) or not?
This was automatic in the left lane, but I did know other CHP officers zap a slow driver in the middle lane. And finally, I stopped an elderly gentleman in the left lane of the Eastshore Freeway, traveling 15 mph, honest!!! And yes I cited him. :shades:
Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
I understand that. I was out West I think and just as the speed limit sign said "70" it also said "Minimum Speed 50". If someone finds it reasonable to do 45 mph on a high speed roadway, they obviously do not understand physics and the dangers this creates for other motorists - especially when traffic is light. They need to be pulled over IMMEDIATELY. I think this activity is actually more dangerous than the speeder.
A member of law enforcement I spoke to said "It's usually an elderly driver terrified of night/bad weather driving or the vehicle is having mechanical problems." I'm not sure but I think the actual citation is "Obstructing a public thoroughfare" or something like that.
Emergency flashers, attentiveness, and courtesy have seen me through all these trips with no problems but, especially when a tractor-trailer is bearing down on you 30-40 mph faster than you, serious situations can materialize rather quickly.
Anyway, up the street, I saw this scene:
This pic was taken about 10 minutes after it happened. The 300M evidently tried to make a left turn from that side street, and got hit by the Kia Optima which was coming down the hill, in the left lane. The Kia driver moved the car to the side of the road a couple minutes later.
My guess is, both of 'em were inconsiderate. The 300M driver had a good 500 feet of visibility looking up the hill, and back my way, probably 600-700 or more. I took this pic from the edge of my yard, with the camera zoomed in. Speed limit on this road is 30 mph, yet speeds of 60+ are common. So, the 300M driver probably wasn't looking when he pulled out, and the Kia driver was probably speeding. And considering they almost missed each other, as the Chrysler is mostly on the proper side of the road, I wonder why the Kia driver didn't try to swerve to the right?
These things can happen so fast though, that often you don't have time to think. And I think it's probably first instinct to actually swerve in the direction of the other vehicle. If you see someone about to pull out in front of you, most people will swerve to the left to go around it. But, if it keeps on pulling out, you're going to hit anyway, and by that time, it might be too late to swerve back to the right, behind the vehicle.
Anyway, the Chrysler got towed away.so I guess damage was bad on that side? If it hit at the rear wheel, it could have messed up the rim, or thrown it out of alignment. Two cop cars showed up after the fire engine left. And now, about an hour and 15 minutes later, the Kia is still sitting there, alone and forlorn.
Not much of an accident, in the overall scheme of things. But not much happens around here, so to us this is news! And, thankfully, it looks like everybody walked away more or less unhurt!
Maybe he did but didn't have the room (or the 300M didn't get out of the way quick enough). Now let me play devils advocate here for a moment. It is possible that the Kia was driving along at the legal limit and at the very last minute the 300M ran out in front of the Kia. If the Kia continued on its course or even went straight while slamming on the brakes the result would have been a T-bone accident. However the Kia driver applied enough force to slow down and maneuver to the right striking the rear of the 300M. A possible way it happened but not the only way.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yesterday, I was driving in the carpool lane with 3 passengers during carpool hours. Traffic was flowing at about 45 to 70 mph between stretches (there are 3 regular lanes and 1 carpool lane).
I stayed in the carpool lane with the cruise control set at 67 mph (the legal speed limit was 65). There were other carpoolers in front of me, but they were about 15 car lengths ahead of me.
I admit I was drving slower than a lot of people, but I was still driving over the speed limit.
Should I have gotten into a slower lane to let faster carpoolers pass? Does a carpool lane count as a "passing lane" during carpool hours? Or do I have the right to stay camped in the carpool lane and let faster drivers pass me on the right if they wish to pass?
I could have sped up, but I didn't want to risk getting a ticket, and I could have gotten over into the 2nd lane to let the speedies pass, but it was crowded and I didn't want to drive slower than 65.
What would you do in my shoes? :confuse:
Now you stated there were cars in front of you in the car pool lane, was the space between you and them getting greater? If yes then maybe you should pull over and let faster traffic go by. I say maybe because my understanding of car pool lanes is that sometimes some of them limit your ability to get into and out of.
If you were keeping pace with the cars directly in front of you then would moving over do any good for the people behind you? They would just have to slow down again 30 seconds later.
As for the speeding ticket in the vast majority of cases you won't get one one doing a bit more than 67 in a 65, especially if traffic normally goes 70+.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Besides, when traffic is heavy, it is hard to move to the right and then get back in. And as Snake says, many times the person behind you will have to slow up in a few yards anyway.
I grew up and lived in San Leandro and Oakland. If you were traveling at the speed limit then you are legal and can continue to drive at 65 mph as far as you desire. But I would offier a caveat that if it's the Nimitz, you may get run over by some nut going 80 mph. And if its the Mac Arthur, probably a little less traffic and still you may get run over.
Be careful there too as you were two miles over the max speed limit and technically breaking the max speed limit law.
In 1968, I was a CHP there for about 4 years before I transferred out and I pictured you driving (almost) legally in the far left/next to the left lane and being tailgatted by some jerk. And the tailgater is dangerous as much as a high speed driver, JMO, because there are big consequences if there is an accident on those two freeways.
And back to 67 mph, I worked with a minority of officers that would cite for 5 mph over the limit and i knew one officer, (thank God he's retired too) that cited for 2 over. To me that was wrong, but then we each had our quirks.)
Nimitz has no shoulders near the red brick wall, and there is some visibility near the 78th Ave. area.
Mac Arthur is like a contour course (also SR 24 from the Caldocott Tunnel to the interchange) and that seemed to make drivers speed up from High Street to the interchange for SF. I.e. it is deceptive.
Thanks for the memories and I hope you, your passengers, and all others here stay safe. What I said, is JMO. :shades:
jensad
you are fine if you are keeping up with car-ahead at reasonable highway speed with a 15 car gap.
optimal gap at that speed is 1.5 car lengths per every 10 mph, so you were almost exactly optimal with your 15 car lengths!
it's unfortunate that anti-vehicle zealouts vote to set road/carpool-lane policies such as california's which increase pollution and fuel-use and cause unnecessary collisions/injuries/deaths.
It's nice to see another bay area native on the forums!
I was driving on I80 (I think it's westbound) coming from Sacramento and heading towards Oakland. I used the carpool lane whenever one was available and saw several carpool cheats along the way. Many of whom cut me off and used the carpool lane as a passing lane.
I sure would love to see more CHP on the freeways. If we ticket every speeder, carpool cheat, cell phone talker, and texter, California's budget deficit would be solved.
I was afraid of getting a ticket. That was precisely why I was only doing 2 mph over the limit instead of following the flow of traffic, which was speeding up and slowing down in pockets. Everyone else was following the changing flow while I was driving steady. I always did catch up with the cars ahead of me, but for the most part, I left about 15 car lengths empty in front.
Had I let the faster drivers over, I would be stuck in the passing lane, which was crowded and slower. It would be difficult to try to get back into the carpool lane because it was going faster/smoother than the other lanes, and there was always a steady line of cars coming.
I want to be considerate, but at the same time, I feel that I shouldn't have to speed if I'm not in the passing lane.
IMO you had the right of way, but in real life, might makes right and the bigger vehicle always wins.
I would have let him in. There's a chance you were in his blind spot and he didn't see you down there. Many times I find that they don't even bother to look, assuming that everyone would just get out of their way.
Years ago, I knew someone whose girlfriend got run off the road. She was on the left lane and it was ending. She tried to merge over, but a pickup truck wouldn't let her in. The two collided, and she spun out and went off the road, and the truck kept on going. She called the cops, and they told her that she should be thankful the truck kept on going and didn't stop. She would have been held at fault for failing to yield the right of way. Seems to me that leaving the scene of an accident should be an offense though, even if it's not your fault. However, it all probably happened so fast that she didn't get a chance to get the tag #.
Now if there are signs that say "alternate merge", you might be required to let the truck in. But if there was a sign that says "merge right" the trucker would most likely be held at fault.
As for "shared blame", I don't know if that comes into play very often or not. After all, usually accidents aren't always 100% the fault of one person or another. I have a cousin who, years ago, got into an accident when someone ran a red light. He thought he made the big time, and that he was gonna get rich. Well, unfortunately, he had done a jackrabbit start, the second the light turned green. And I'm not sure who hit whom. But, he was found partially at fault, and his "hundreds of thousands of dollars" back in 1981 or so turned out to $200 per week, with no adjustment for inflation, to run out when he turned 65. He lives in his mother's basement now. :sick:
Two wrongs don't make a right. Not letting someone in just because they didn't offer you the same courtesy earlier is just as inconsiderate.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The only real problem I see with that is that around here if you leave that much space between you and the car in front of you it will fill up quickly especially during rush hour. There have been times I have gotten behind someone who wanted to leave a big space between them and the car in front of them only to have other cars fill that space so the driver would fall back to crate the space again only to have more cars fill it up.....
So in effect even though they would have likely followed the car in front of them at the same speed they went slower than the flow of traffic trying to keep a larger distance between them and the car in front of them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And about the previous mention of a cop who would bother with someone going 2 over...it's that kind of BS that makes growing resentment against LEOs to be justified.
I think I would have driven with the flow of traffic had I been driving my own car, but I was driving my mother's 2001 Toyota Avalon, which is like a Japanese Buick. It's a boat of a car. It takes forever to accelerate and even longer to slow down and stop. I wouldn't feel safe driving closer than 10 car lengths behind someone at highway speeds.
Around here, I laugh at what I call the "carpool pylons"...as so many so-called motorists around here are afraid to go 60 even on a wide open road, and will crawl down the carpool lanes at 54mph even in the most perfect conditions.
Back then it was a ~$268 ticket, but didn't count on insurance points or license points - not a moving violation?
Amazingly I never got cited by CHP, but got thousands of impollite hand-gestures from other drivers.
Maybe if I had served tea & crumpets through my passenger window before smiling and waving while solo-passing in carpool lane, that would have been more considerate!
Back east the carpool lanes are more like a roach-motel - once you are in , there is a barrier keeping you there for miles.
It's a much safer approach - And it prevents using the lane as a passing lane to get around gridlocks. And total fuel use and pollution is increased substantially, exactly as per the design of carpool lanes. Hoorah!
The plans here for the tollway is to make the far left lane in most areas where it's 4 lanes into a car pool lane during the rush hours. However they will let solo drivers use it for an increased toll.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
For $25 round trip, a teen ager could ride to work, take mass transit home and back again for the return trip. Would a highly paid employee find it worth $25 a day or $100 a week?
For instance, would a Microsoft exec living Browns Point pay to have a passenger so he could travel to Redmond a lot faster? Is this a valued service niche?
That bad???
They cost more money. I think the reason some HOV lanes are not cordoned off with hard concrete barrier and gates is, simply cost.
The municipalities and highway authorities were probably counting on (hoping actually) for driver respect and altruism in this matter and they could in turn, keep taxes, tolls and fees down.
As abuse continues or rises, I'm sure you'll see the highway department forced into constructing, well, your phrase " roach-motels".
More restrictions, more barriers, more taxes. Don't blame the solo motorist that respected the HOV and resisted the incredible temptation to "just get by this one car".....
As far as enforcement is concerned, My experience with HOV lanes is now almost non-existent but the last time I was in rush hour adjacent to one, the police set up a team and had literally a line of scofflaws pulled over, at least five or six cars!
Good revenue source there!!!!!
Probably a last post in this arena, nothing new. Subtleties will always exist in interpretation of motor vehicle laws, when the motorists start "interpreting" a little too creatively and then whine about restrictions, congestion, tolls, barriers, cameras (please O' please get more cameras) and big brother, who's to blame?
Same old same old, because a certain few can't behave properly on roads and highways, everybody else has to pay.
On a parting note, I saw one of those "Good Sam" stickers on a late model car the other day. It was kind nice to reminisce...
Anyway, about 3 weeks ago a local police car, and a police car from the little town (my town isn't very large either) just up the highway,according to the new article had just turned a car loose from a 'mutual respond' at the edge of both towns, and the two police cars were going down the road to a location for a 'talk' when they collided. One turned into the other. Supposed to have totaled both cars.
This happens in our town somewhat often, police car accidents. And the initial accident may be reported in the paper, but never any followup as to any dicipline, etc.
After all, it's just taxpayers money.
Presume you mean the Illinois Tollway. How will they set up charging an increased toll for solo drivers to use carpool lane? Will that lane be physically separated from the other lanes?
I recall that LSD in Chicago had physical barriers that raised up, lowered to reconfigure amount of lanes in each direction depending on am or pm rush hour. Lots of stuff to maintain there, plus danger of driver hitting the barrier.
The signage says that solo drivers can pay a toll and use the HOV lanes. There are no booths so you have to get a transponder.
I think many officers have accidents. Several officers either struck a horse, or a deer on the freeway. My last t/c was with a deer at night. No damage to my vehicle but the deer lingered until it died.
The next day when I went back to my patrol area, the deer was gone. I hope it helped feed someone.
Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
What annoyed me about the HOV lanes in the Puget Sound area, is that they apply 24/7, unlike the more intelligent application in the Portland, Oregon area, just 2 hours to the south.
Around Portland, the HOV lanes apply only to traffic headed into the city during the morning commute hours. They apply to outbound traffic during the evening commute. The remainder of the time, HOV lanes are available to all traffic.
This does not seem to create any confusion and it enhances traffic flow during both peak and off-peak hours. When it was suggested that such a system would improve the universally acknowledged horrific traffic problems in the Puget Sound region, the Washington DOT admitted that it would probably improve the situation, but sadly, "funds were unavailable to alter the signage." :sick:
Carpool lanes on 405 are open to all from 7pm-5am, and on 167 are usually likewise, but the latter is on a transponder-pay system.
I remember those barriers on LSD, they are long gone. But the Kennedy expressway has reversible lanes in the median.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Its rather nice to see the CHP stop them and cite them.
Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
How about disposing your coffee by throwing it out the window while driving on the freeway and then you discover the window is shut?
Oh well my pants can be cleaned and the window can be washed but my ego sure suffered.
Take care and drive safe.
jensad