Speed limits on wide open roads are only so relevant. Most affluent snarky old greybeards who buy new Vettes never get them past third anyway :shades:
I guess I differentiate between a fun trip and a fun drive. For those you mention, the fun is the scenery or destination, which are not really related to the drive. You'd have the same fun or more on a nice big-windowed tour bus, or as a passenger in a car. Driving isn't needed.
I prefer Fintails' words, calm, or lack of panic. Relaxed does imply inattentive, and that is no good, at any speed, whether it be 55 or 100.
I'm not in a state of panic if I'm driving for 100 miles straight on I5 in CA and happen to look down and see the speedo hit 100 (it's called speed desensitivity) when you go in a straight flat line for miles and miles and miles.
The only thing that would cause me panic if I was doing 100 MPH is if I saw a CHP car on the side of the road as I passed :P Now that would induce panic immediately.
You need to spend a track weekend or 2 at the track with a decently competently handling car. Most modern vehicles could handle a safe single emergency lane change manuever at 100 MPH without requirement of an expert driver. It's not suicidal. You are driving too much American iron or big heavy trucks!
Sure, it would take more skill and precision to be safe with my '03 Accord Coupe on skinny 205/65 R16 all-season rubber, whereas in my '06 A3 on fat/wide sticky summer 235/40 R18's even a beginner with one weekend's track training should be able to handle it easily and without breaking a sweat.
Frankly, with ESP, even someone with 2 minutes training on what to do for an emergency lane change should be able to handle it in a good handling vehicle.
What is good about the track and HPDE is it lets people safely discover the limits of traction and maneuverability, and it is usually far higher than they expect. When a driver knows the capabilities of their vehicle, it makes them a better driver since they can execute avoidance manuevers (and not resort to stopping as the only solution to an emergency situation) using the full capabilities of their vehicle.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Your idea of fun sounds like you'll be the Google Driver's first customer. That way you can enjoy the scenery even better, since you won't have to "enjoy" the drive at all.
I still enjoy the scenery along Highway 1 going fast, I just have to process the scenery much quicker :P
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Ever see wildlife on the road? (specifically, have you ever seen an armadillo? no, probably not) Ever see debris on the road? Ever see someone stopped on the side of the road?
I've seen wildlife, only rarely was it blocking all lanes though. I hit a bunny once; if I had tracked straight and not reacted, I think he'd of actually survived. As it turned out, I manuevered him right into my front right tire. I think he was pretty much pulverized and pancaked (did loosen a trim piece though). If it's so small that you can't see it in time to stop or manuever around it, then I have a hard time believing it'll "flip" you. If it's small, even if it's strong, it'll pulverize. Is the armadillo shell really that strong? Does anything other than Prius, SUV, or other high centered vehicle get flipped?
Even on a two lane highway (one each direction) the opposite lane is most likely open for an emergency lane change manuever anywhere desolate enough to have wildlife enter the roadway on occasion.
I can't see why anyone couldn't just manuever around the armadillo, he's not nearly as fast as a jack rabbit
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Last winter, there was an amateur video of a brutal crash recorded by another driver and posted online. An SUV slipped on a light snow, hit several other vehicles, entered the wrong way and was reduced to dust by an oncoming semi. The clip was intended to say: Be afraid! Be very afraid! Drive even slower!
I watched it numerous times, and the only thing that I could see was utter ineptitude of the driver. He didn't even attempt any skid correction (a basic must-have skill in winter driving), just panicked and abandoned steering altogether. In contrast, a small commercial truck, after being hit to the side by the victim, calmly corrected his course, stayed in the lane, and pulled over after that.
A real driver knows that it's the driver and the road, not the car, that makes a driving experience really exciting.
I always felt that people that said that kinda thing were always driving underpowered cars.
It seems that all this discussion just reinforces the thesis that there are drivers and there are users. One can do nothing about it. If someone is born with a different particular proclivity than you, there is no way to convey your feelings or to explain what exactly he is possibly missing.
I sent both my daughters to a local race tracks" Highway Survival" Course when each had 1 year of drivers experience past getting their licenses. I am not sure what they call the course now. Both took to it like ducks to water. They both indicated that the course was LOADS of fun ! (despite having some deadly serious implications behind it) The funny part is one daughter beat the instructors lap times and the other came in #2 behind and instructor !? (and not by much)
My idea of a twisty fun drive is the Dempster Highway or the Cassiar or the Trans-Labrador or the Alcan or Idaho's Highway 12 or the Magruder Corridor or a dozen others.
Steve, you're gutting me with these fond recollections! Stop it!
The most fun I've had on a drive to date was September 2009 driving the Cassiar highway in my 2010 Forester in eight hours flat. Let's see - 450 miles in 8 hours works out to an average of 56.25. Hah; I challenge anyone to drive it in that time and not have a blast while doing so. I don't care what car you're driving.
My first drive on that same road probably comes in second (for most fun). I was driving my 1969 Ford Econoline. I think the trip took 13 hours, but was 50% mud, too.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
I always felt that people that said that kinda thing were always driving underpowered cars.
And that gets us back to the proposition that it's way more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. My Tercel was a hoot; lightweight, peppy and with a 5 speed. Miatas sell well for that reason too.
Poor Juice has to drive his in DC traffic with all those inconsiderate limos.
(Xwes, I did the Denali Highway like that one time. All those people I passed caught up with me while I was fixing the flat I got on the gravel. :shades: )
And that gets us back to the proposition that it's way more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.
I totally understand the fun of twisties and good handling. I'm no drag strip 0-60 quarter mile kind of racer guy. I'd prefer something modestly powered that handles well to something that is fast in a straight line but handles like a tank anyday!
However, having said that, I'd have way more fun driving a:
Cayman S or Cayman R over the regular one. Boxter S over the regular non-S one. 911 turbo over the regular one. S4 over A4 S8 over A8 M3 over 335i TTRS over TT
And on and on and on. Just because a car handles well, doesn't mean you have to have an under powered engine and be pokey.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The only thing that would cause me panic if I was doing 100 MPH is if I saw a CHP car on the side of the road as I passed...
Why would you panic? You always tell us that you only drive as fast as is reasonable and safe on a given road--posted limit notwithstanding. If 100 mph is reasonable and safe for the road you're on, I'm sure the officer will understand that.
If not, undoubtedly you'll have a rock-solid case to take to court--85th percentile etc. etc.
If not, undoubtedly you'll have a rock-solid case to take to court
I see my efforts to educate you are not working!!!!
1) I hate having to go to court and deal with their purposeful waste of time and money (whether you win or not you'll waste time and money/gas/effort/energy).
2) You can't argue with most cops. "Tell it to the judge," is something I've heard uttered more than once from their smug mouths.
3) You can't argue safe, reasonable and prudent if you were going 65.0001 MPH or more in CA (unless the sign says 70) in which case you are still screwed if you were going 70.000000001 MPH or more.
4) I recommend setting the cruise control to 99 MPH, because 100 MPH can carry a hefty fine in CA and fall under a different vehicle code than regular "speeding." These "over 100" VC's exist to generate EVEN more revenue and bleed you even dryer.
5) It has gotten to the point that I'm always marginally panicked when I see an LEO on the roadway. Everytime I see one I have to try and see if I can remember all 40,000+ vehicle codes within seconds to make sure I don't give him an excuse to pull me over. If you can compute 40,000+ rules and laws in a second, then you have a pretty good CPU!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Everytime I see one I have to try and see if I can remember all 40,000+ vehicle codes within seconds to make sure I don't give him an excuse to pull me over.
There's an easier way... just drive safely, near posted limits. Greatly reduces stress and eliminates panic.
just drive safely, near posted limits. Greatly reduces stress and eliminates panic.
I always drive safely, maybe not near posted limits (10-15 over), but safely nonetheless.
Still, driving at the speed limit only keeps you safe from "legitimate" speeding tickets. There is still the threat of an errant speeding ticket, or 39,999 other violations (afterall, safety is subjective to the eyes of the beholder).
For instance, I didn't see a "No-U Turn Sign," a few years back. It wasn't posted in a location where it was easily visible. There were 3 lanes on each side of the roadway, plenty of room to make a u-turn. The sign didn't spell out the words, it was a U with a red circles crossed diagonally.
I honestly didn't see the sign. I made the U-turn safely. I caused no cars in either direction to slow down, apply their brakes, or manuever in any way due to my action (mainly cause there were no vehicles within 300' coming in on me).
After completing my U-turn, 150' later, I see there's 2 Santee Sheriff's motorcycles parked by the sidewalk in the parking lost adjacent, and an officer is on foot at the sidewalk, signaling u-turning cars to pull over.
Which of the 40K VC's did he pull out of a hat? Illegal U-turn? Unsafe lane change or unsafe turn??? No sir.
He pulled out "Sign violation!"
LOL! On a sign violation, it doesn't matter if a hazard to safety was presented or not, all that matters is did a sign get violated (whether it was visible or seen, or not).
It is precisely this kind of REVENUE generation BS, that makes my blood boil and have contempt for LEO's.
Camping out at a location where you KNOW the sign is missed my most motorists so you can nab illegal uturners! They probably pulled over and wrote a dozen citations in less than an hour.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Revenue generation, the motive behind 90% of traffic patrols, whether or not the scaredy cats and law-and-order badge kissers want to admit it.
Took a drive into podunk today. Terrible traffic - is it a holiday weekend? Tons of crawlers, people going down the interstate at 45-50. Only saw one Prius not in the right lane, so at least they know their place. Saw three speed patrols in 2 hours, all on interstate, zero on state highways. Several trucks passing at .5mph faster than the vehicle in the right lane. Saw a young guy in a Contour camping in the left lane at ~50, don't know what that was about - grandson of someone here? :shades: When on the state highway, put cruise at 65 in a 60, where the same Focus passed me and got passed by me 3 times in 50 miles. What's with that?
in this case, I am on andres side. If it is a place where it is safe and logical to make a U turn, and lots of people are, then they should change the rule for that spot to allow the U-turn.
and if it really is dangerous so it needs to be regulated, but people have trouble seeing the sign, then they need to add more signs to make sure people see them.
doing nothing but using it as a "gotcha" piggy bank is wrong on many levels, and a violation of the public trust.
So what's the beef? Upset that the LEO actually wrote you up for something you did?
I'm upset the LEO is wasting my tax money paying his salary camping out at a U-turn sign he knows has frequent violators but post absolutely zero safety risk.
He should be doing something productive with my tax money paying his salary, like grabbing a shovel and putting the sign in a better spot!
The time he wastes ticketing perfectly safe driving actions is time he could be spending looking for bad/dangerous drivers (such as at least waiting for someone to make the u-turn who ALSO fails to yield the right-of-way to oncoming traffic forcing them to slow down). That is impeding traffic, and I'm all for fines on that!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I know lots of places where IMO it's safe and logical to make a U-turn, but it's posted "no U-turn". Maybe someone knows something I don't know. Have you seen this intersection?
Lots of people? Based on what we've been told, we know of only one person who tried to make a U-turn (against the sign) there. We don't know how many have made U-turns there or tried to make U-turns there.
Maybe it's not so much that they need more signs. I haven't seen the sign and you haven't either. Maybe some drivers need to be more aware of their surroundings. You know, to see things like signs, two patrol cars sitting there...
What I really love is the defense: I turned safely so why should I get a ticket for violating a "no U-turn" zone? That's a good one. I'll try to use that next time I am stopped for a moving violation: Hey, officer, no one got hurt, so what's the problem?
As if only people who cause damage/injury should get tickets. :confuse:
Wondered if someone was going to mention the Dragon. Got family in Chattanooga and did it a few years back. Had good timing; hardly any traffic the day we drove it. My brother has biked it too. But in that area, there's a lot of fun roads sort of abutting the Smokies that see fewer tourists. Haven't been there for years, but the gravel roads around the Tellico area are good ones.
It seems that all this discussion just reinforces the thesis that there are drivers and there are users. One can do nothing about it. If someone is born with a different particular proclivity than you, there is no way to convey your feelings or to explain what exactly he is possibly missing.
Exactly! I would also say that the power to weight ratio usually isn't a critical factor for driving enjoyment. My three "enthusiast" cars range in horsepower from 98 to 287, and each one is a total blast to drive. That said, on a track with a lot of elevation changes -such as Road Atlanta or Watkins Glen- more power generally does = more fun.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I sent both my daughters to a local race tracks" Highway Survival" Course when each had 1 year of drivers experience past getting their licenses.
Great minds think alike; I sent my son to two day teen school at the BMW Performance Center as well as the BMW CCA Foundation's one day Street Survival course(which let him experience how his car handled in extreme situations). Funny thing; he has proven to be a very responsible driver, so I told him when he went off to college I'd help him buy a 330i ZHP, E36 M3, or similar. He told me he'd rather drive his mom's 2004 X3 2.5 because "If I get something that's even a bit fast I'll get into trouble with it."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My idea of a twisty fun drive is the Dempster Highway or the Cassiar or the Trans-Labrador or the Alcan or Idaho's Highway 12 or the Magruder Corridor or a dozen others.
I ran the 2000 ALCAN Winter Rally; from Seattle to Quesnel, Whitehorse, Tok, Valdez, Fairbanks, Prudhoe Bay(all the way to Oliktok Point- on the shores of the Arctic Ocean), back to Fairbanks, and finishing up in Anchorage. We had a new X5 4.4 and I managed to see 120 mph for several minutes on a dry mountain ridge road between Valdez and Fairbanks...
My son and I are running the 2014 ALCAN Summer Rally, assuming we can get either BMW to loan us an X1 or Mini to cough up a Countryman ALL4...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Got to ride shotgun in a new 4x4 pickup up to the Slope with an oil worker friend to the water's edge years ago. Only made it as far as Atigun Pass in the Quest. Ran out of time that trip. Wouldn't have been able to get through the gates to the water if we'd taken the van all the way up. Some pretty country up that way. And if you break down, no one is going to be inconsiderate and not stop to try to help.
Courses like your kiddo took should be required as part of the licensing process. I'd even be willing for my tax dollars to subsidize them. Would save a ton of money in medical bills and damaged sheet metal.
I ended up driving Atigun Pass in what was humorously described as a 50 mph convoy. With teams boasting drivers with last names like Dallenbach and Unser do you think we stuck to 50 mph? That was a bit tense- what with the roads being dark, snow covered, and people driving like supercharged bats out of Hell...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Only did it in the high summer. It's funny how dirt/gravel roads in the boonies sometimes will be smoother than most Interstates.
Raining in S. Michigan so we're blowing off the Canadian loop and heading for the Soo and home. Wimping out in my old age, not to mention my night vision has gotten lousy. Mid September weather is often dicey but at least snow won't be an issue. There is a little road to WhiteFish Point that looks like a nice detour though if the inconsiderate weather breaks.
Twisted but paved. Beautiful scenery, but you won't have time to look. I'd suggest the above-linked Route 28 that runs in Smokeys south of Lake Fontana. Locals commented how many motorcycle riders die riding that road trying to have fun on the turns and twists.
For the brave folks loving natural beauty, you can enjoy rafting and kayaking on the Nanatahala River in the controlled outflow from a TVA dam. We just took the train ride from Bryson City along the river and Fontana Lake.
Lots of people? Based on what we've been told, we know of only one person who tried to make a U-turn (against the sign) there.
That's not true. I said they probably nabbed a dozen people in an hour. Based on my 15 minute observation, seeing them nab a couple before me (already parked receiving their piece of paper garbage), and another after me, you can estimate the dozen in an hour from the fact they got 3 or 4 within 15 minutes, it's reasonable to assume many many people make the U-turn in question.
Maybe some drivers need to be more aware of their surroundings. You know, to see things like signs, two patrol cars sitting there...
The sign was in a spot that didn't need to be looked at or seen in order to drive safely. The important thing when making the U-turn (which had it's own left lane turn lane into a parking lot), is to look at oncoming traffic and make sure you don't cause any conflicts with oncoming traffic, or with any vehicles exiting the parking lot and turning right. There is really no need to be scanning more to the right side where the sign post was placed.
Furthermore, there were no patrol cars sitting at the intersection U-turn spot in question as I said. The were not on the roadway at all in fact. They were parked at about 200' back in the parking lot adjacent to a grassy median that is adjacent to a wide sidewalk that is adjacent to the other 3 lanes of roadway.
Also, even at that distance and away from the roadway in question (and I dont' believe there's any reason for a driver on the roadway to distinguish things in the parking lot not near the exit zones (such as what's going on at Best Buy while your driving???), there were no patrol cars in the parking lot either. I said they had two officers, and two motorcycles parked among other vehicles in a big parking lot. A bike is not a car.
If they wanted to be seen or noticed, why wouldn't they just camp out on the grassy center median by where the U-turn takes place and have a picnic?
As if only people who cause damage/injury should get tickets.
Nice red herring. No need to make a ridiculous argument. The point is that a ticket shouldn't be issued unless the turn was unsafe in some manner, and posed a risk or hazard in some way. Just because you do something unsafely doesn't mean an accident will occur, it could just be a close call.
Your probably wondering how does one determine if something is unsafe? Well, the simple answer is that the action should result in some kind of impediment to traffic. Someone or something should be affected by the movement you made. Opposite side oncoming traffic being forced to use there brakes to avoid a near miss would be one. Failure to yield to a right of way to a right turner coming out of the adjacent parking lot would be another.
For speeding, whizzing by a bicyclist at 100 MPH from 1 foot away almost knocking them over would be another example of something unsafe.
A LLC causing another vehicle to turn on the brake lights in the left lane is yet another example.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I'd even be willing for my tax dollars to subsidize them. Would save a ton of money in medical bills and damaged sheet metal.
A fine idea. I'm all for better driver training and do think it would save tons of money in many forms over the long haul.
However, are we going to bailout all the Auto Body shops across America? I'm sure the body shops across America would lose tremendous amounts of revenues. These are American small businesses, don't they deserve a bailout?
Also, if American cars really have improved to be the equal of imports, then I suppose tow truck drivers will need a bailout as well. Not only will they not have business from Dodge owners anymore, they will also lose business from towing wrecked cars due to that driver's training improvement.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
...seeing them nab a couple before me (already parked receiving their piece of paper garbage),...
So not only did you miss seeing the U-turn sign, you didn't see the two other cars pulled over receiving tickets? And that didn't give you some pause? What WERE you doing while driving that day?
The sign was in a spot that didn't need to be looked at or seen in order to drive safely.
Since you didn't see an important sign, it appears you were not driving safely. Safe drivers observe their surroundings, including signs like "no U-turn".
The important thing when making the U-turn (which had it's own left lane turn lane into a parking lot), is to look at oncoming traffic and make sure you don't cause any conflicts with oncoming traffic, or with any vehicles exiting the parking lot and turning right. There is really no need to be scanning more to the right side where the sign post was placed.
Another important thing before making a U-turn is looking to see if the intersection has been posted as "no U-turn". An experienced driver like you should know that those are pretty common, so you can't assume that every intersection allows U-turns. Just like it's important before making a right turn on red to look for a "no right turn on red" sign.
The point is that a ticket shouldn't be issued unless the turn was unsafe in some manner, and posed a risk or hazard in some way. Just because you do something unsafely doesn't mean an accident will occur, it could just be a close call.
In other words... it's OK to break a traffic law if you do the unlawful act in a safe manner? So for example, if you decide you want to drive the wrong way down a road, but you're lucky that day and you don't hit anyone or cause other vehicles to take evasive action to avoid an accident, then if an officer observes you driving the wrong way down the road, they should let you be because "no harm, no foul"?
Looks like there's no room in your mind for the concept of, "This driver ignores posted signs; that's an unsafe driving practice in general so we are going to stop him for that."
I think we are already subsidizing the body shop industry through low licensing standards and non-enforcement of certain distracted driving issues. Seriously.
We subsidize ungrateful nations, some of which arguably shouldn't exist. Why not industries that at least exist on our soil.
The fun part would be contacting the city and asking why the sign is there - is it a legitimate safety issue? Like so many traffic law issues, the overpaid sucks with their fingers on the button probably won't give an answer - not like they can be fired.
So not only did you miss seeing the U-turn sign, you didn't see the two other cars pulled over receiving tickets? And that didn't give you some pause? What WERE you doing while driving that day?
They weren't pulled over per say. They were parked in a big large parking lot parked like any other of hundreds of cars.
Why would I be paying attention to a parking lot more than 5 lanes of distance from me?
Since you didn't see an important sign, it appears you were not driving safely. Safe drivers observe their surroundings, including signs like "no U-turn".
Who says that it was an important sign? That's a big assumption based on no facts. If they wanted to have the sign seen, they'd of placed it better. It exists for revenue generation; no other reason.
if you decide you want to drive the wrong way down a road, but you're lucky that day and you don't hit anyone or cause other vehicles to take evasive action to avoid an accident, then if an officer observes you driving the wrong way down the road, they should let you be because "no harm, no foul"?
That example makes no sense unless the road was closed off and no traffic was coming against you. A car seeing someone go the wrong way will be freaked out by that unsafe manuever. A U-turn doesn't freak anyone out.
This driver ignores posted signs; that's an unsafe driving practice in general so we are going to stop him for that."
Depends on the sign and if it is warranted and substantiated by reasons other than revenue generation. Didn't someone just the other day point out that streets might be safer with no signage?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
They'd probably say something like the road has too much traffic during rush hours, and therefore we don't want people making u-turns (because some Prius' take 34 seconds to complete a turn).
That brings me to another thing I hate, signs with times, dates, and hours on them. Like "No right turn on red 6-9 AM and 4-6 PM."
Takes way too long to process, and seriously, I can better judge traffic conditions than a clock can.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Who says that it was an important sign? That's a big assumption based on no facts.
No, I have facts.
1) The sign tells all drivers that no U-turns are permitted at the intersection. That is an important thing for drivers to know.
2) The sign was important specifically for you. Had you seen it, and heeded it, you wouldn't have received a ticket.
Here's an idea for you, as far-fetched as it may seem:
* Tell yourself: "I made a mistake. I didn't see a sign I should have seen, and because of that I got a ticket." * Then move on. For once, don't blame others for a mistake YOU made.
My idea of a twisty fun drive is the Dempster Highway or the Cassiar or the Trans-Labrador or the Alcan or Idaho's Highway 12 or the Magruder Corridor or a dozen others.
Everyone has their own definition of "fun" when driving. What to drive, where to drive.
In my area, nice twisties can be found in NW Illinois and SW, West WISC. Usually not too much traffic on many of these, especially on week days. Great to drive briskly, but safely, and also catch some glimpses of foliage color in autumn.
Most fun, with a small element of danger, and great scenery, and driving sanely, have been: US 550 between Durango and Ouray Colo. Especially the segment between Silverton and Ouray with lots of dropoffs within a couple-few feet of edge of pavement. Next, the drive up Pikes Peak on a sunny day when the top half was still gravel.
Was quite a while ago, but think I too was on US 129 when on a vacation trip to Gatlinberg and Smoky Mountain Park. Beautiful drive if not stuck behind someone or a line of vehicles.
1) The sign tells all drivers that no U-turns are permitted at the intersection. That is an important thing for drivers to know.
Only if there is a good reason for the sign to exist in the first place. As we have established here, our cities traffic engineers seem to be overpaid and underqualified.
2) The sign was important specifically for you. Had you seen it, and heeded it, you wouldn't have received a ticket.
That doesn't make it important, it would have just made it more convenient. The truth is if they wanted the sign to be obeyed, they'd post it better. They like having the sign in that spot, it makes them more money $$$
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
I guess I differentiate between a fun trip and a fun drive. For those you mention, the fun is the scenery or destination, which are not really related to the drive. You'd have the same fun or more on a nice big-windowed tour bus, or as a passenger in a car. Driving isn't needed.
I'm not in a state of panic if I'm driving for 100 miles straight on I5 in CA and happen to look down and see the speedo hit 100 (it's called speed desensitivity) when you go in a straight flat line for miles and miles and miles.
The only thing that would cause me panic if I was doing 100 MPH is if I saw a CHP car on the side of the road as I passed :P Now that would induce panic immediately.
You need to spend a track weekend or 2 at the track with a decently competently handling car. Most modern vehicles could handle a safe single emergency lane change manuever at 100 MPH without requirement of an expert driver. It's not suicidal. You are driving too much American iron or big heavy trucks!
Sure, it would take more skill and precision to be safe with my '03 Accord Coupe on skinny 205/65 R16 all-season rubber, whereas in my '06 A3 on fat/wide sticky summer 235/40 R18's even a beginner with one weekend's track training should be able to handle it easily and without breaking a sweat.
Frankly, with ESP, even someone with 2 minutes training on what to do for an emergency lane change should be able to handle it in a good handling vehicle.
What is good about the track and HPDE is it lets people safely discover the limits of traction and maneuverability, and it is usually far higher than they expect. When a driver knows the capabilities of their vehicle, it makes them a better driver since they can execute avoidance manuevers (and not resort to stopping as the only solution to an emergency situation) using the full capabilities of their vehicle.
I still enjoy the scenery along Highway 1 going fast, I just have to process the scenery much quicker :P
I always felt that people that said that kinda thing were always driving underpowered cars.
I fing it outraging to the degree of being insulting and impudent how Toyota promotes its new vehicles equipped with an almost full-blown Internet.
I've seen wildlife, only rarely was it blocking all lanes though. I hit a bunny once; if I had tracked straight and not reacted, I think he'd of actually survived. As it turned out, I manuevered him right into my front right tire. I think he was pretty much pulverized and pancaked (did loosen a trim piece though). If it's so small that you can't see it in time to stop or manuever around it, then I have a hard time believing it'll "flip" you. If it's small, even if it's strong, it'll pulverize. Is the armadillo shell really that strong? Does anything other than Prius, SUV, or other high centered vehicle get flipped?
Even on a two lane highway (one each direction) the opposite lane is most likely open for an emergency lane change manuever anywhere desolate enough to have wildlife enter the roadway on occasion.
I can't see why anyone couldn't just manuever around the armadillo, he's not nearly as fast as a jack rabbit
Sales were the other way around.
Rotary never sold well, CVT is going in more and more cars with FE standards going up.
I watched it numerous times, and the only thing that I could see was utter ineptitude of the driver. He didn't even attempt any skid correction (a basic must-have skill in winter driving), just panicked and abandoned steering altogether. In contrast, a small commercial truck, after being hit to the side by the victim, calmly corrected his course, stayed in the lane, and pulled over after that.
I always felt that people that said that kinda thing were always driving underpowered cars.
It seems that all this discussion just reinforces the thesis that there are drivers and there are users. One can do nothing about it. If someone is born with a different particular proclivity than you, there is no way to convey your feelings or to explain what exactly he is possibly missing.
Did any of the reasons work, and if so, what were they?
Just look up "Boston Tea Party".
Steve, you're gutting me with these fond recollections! Stop it!
The most fun I've had on a drive to date was September 2009 driving the Cassiar highway in my 2010 Forester in eight hours flat. Let's see - 450 miles in 8 hours works out to an average of 56.25. Hah; I challenge anyone to drive it in that time and not have a blast while doing so. I don't care what car you're driving.
My first drive on that same road probably comes in second (for most fun). I was driving my 1969 Ford Econoline. I think the trip took 13 hours, but was 50% mud, too.
And that gets us back to the proposition that it's way more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. My Tercel was a hoot; lightweight, peppy and with a 5 speed. Miatas sell well for that reason too.
Poor Juice has to drive his in DC traffic with all those inconsiderate limos.
(Xwes, I did the Denali Highway like that one time. All those people I passed caught up with me while I was fixing the flat I got on the gravel. :shades: )
I totally understand the fun of twisties and good handling. I'm no drag strip 0-60 quarter mile kind of racer guy. I'd prefer something modestly powered that handles well to something that is fast in a straight line but handles like a tank anyday!
However, having said that, I'd have way more fun driving a:
Cayman S or Cayman R over the regular one.
Boxter S over the regular non-S one.
911 turbo over the regular one.
S4 over A4
S8 over A8
M3 over 335i
TTRS over TT
And on and on and on. Just because a car handles well, doesn't mean you have to have an under powered engine and be pokey.
But I forget, you are an expert on everything. Even things you've never seen nor experienced. :P
Also I know with your Audi wundercar you can outmaneuver anything, even at 100 mph on a two-lane road.
Yep, no reason to be anything than laid-back relaxed cruisin' at 100.
Why would you panic? You always tell us that you only drive as fast as is reasonable and safe on a given road--posted limit notwithstanding. If 100 mph is reasonable and safe for the road you're on, I'm sure the officer will understand that.
If not, undoubtedly you'll have a rock-solid case to take to court--85th percentile etc. etc.
So, no need to panic, eh?
And for what it's worth, even I'd say 100 MPH is FAST for a 2-lane highway. You best be paying full attention if your doing that on a 2-lane roadway.
4+ lane freeways tend to not have hills, bends, turns, crests, or ridges where you don't have enough line of sight to safely go 100 MPH.
I see my efforts to educate you are not working!!!!
1) I hate having to go to court and deal with their purposeful waste of time and money (whether you win or not you'll waste time and money/gas/effort/energy).
2) You can't argue with most cops. "Tell it to the judge," is something I've heard uttered more than once from their smug mouths.
3) You can't argue safe, reasonable and prudent if you were going 65.0001 MPH or more in CA (unless the sign says 70) in which case you are still screwed if you were going 70.000000001 MPH or more.
4) I recommend setting the cruise control to 99 MPH, because 100 MPH can carry a hefty fine in CA and fall under a different vehicle code than regular "speeding." These "over 100" VC's exist to generate EVEN more revenue and bleed you even dryer.
5) It has gotten to the point that I'm always marginally panicked when I see an LEO on the roadway. Everytime I see one I have to try and see if I can remember all 40,000+ vehicle codes within seconds to make sure I don't give him an excuse to pull me over. If you can compute 40,000+ rules and laws in a second, then you have a pretty good CPU!
There's an easier way... just drive safely, near posted limits. Greatly reduces stress and eliminates panic.
I always drive safely, maybe not near posted limits (10-15 over), but safely nonetheless.
Still, driving at the speed limit only keeps you safe from "legitimate" speeding tickets. There is still the threat of an errant speeding ticket, or 39,999 other violations (afterall, safety is subjective to the eyes of the beholder).
For instance, I didn't see a "No-U Turn Sign," a few years back. It wasn't posted in a location where it was easily visible. There were 3 lanes on each side of the roadway, plenty of room to make a u-turn. The sign didn't spell out the words, it was a U with a red circles crossed diagonally.
I honestly didn't see the sign. I made the U-turn safely. I caused no cars in either direction to slow down, apply their brakes, or manuever in any way due to my action (mainly cause there were no vehicles within 300' coming in on me).
After completing my U-turn, 150' later, I see there's 2 Santee Sheriff's motorcycles parked by the sidewalk in the parking lost adjacent, and an officer is on foot at the sidewalk, signaling u-turning cars to pull over.
Which of the 40K VC's did he pull out of a hat? Illegal U-turn? Unsafe lane change or unsafe turn??? No sir.
He pulled out "Sign violation!"
LOL! On a sign violation, it doesn't matter if a hazard to safety was presented or not, all that matters is did a sign get violated (whether it was visible or seen, or not).
It is precisely this kind of REVENUE generation BS, that makes my blood boil and have contempt for LEO's.
Camping out at a location where you KNOW the sign is missed my most motorists so you can nab illegal uturners! They probably pulled over and wrote a dozen citations in less than an hour.
Took a drive into podunk today. Terrible traffic - is it a holiday weekend? Tons of crawlers, people going down the interstate at 45-50. Only saw one Prius not in the right lane, so at least they know their place. Saw three speed patrols in 2 hours, all on interstate, zero on state highways. Several trucks passing at .5mph faster than the vehicle in the right lane. Saw a young guy in a Contour camping in the left lane at ~50, don't know what that was about - grandson of someone here? :shades: When on the state highway, put cruise at 65 in a 60, where the same Focus passed me and got passed by me 3 times in 50 miles. What's with that?
Yeah, it IS harder to spot things like signs when driving fast.
P.S. You DID commit a sign violation. So what's the beef? Upset that the LEO actually wrote you up for something you did?
:P
and if it really is dangerous so it needs to be regulated, but people have trouble seeing the sign, then they need to add more signs to make sure people see them.
doing nothing but using it as a "gotcha" piggy bank is wrong on many levels, and a violation of the public trust.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I've done it in cars and on bikes, but at my age, I never endangered anyone's records or times.
I'm upset the LEO is wasting my tax money paying his salary camping out at a U-turn sign he knows has frequent violators but post absolutely zero safety risk.
He should be doing something productive with my tax money paying his salary, like grabbing a shovel and putting the sign in a better spot!
The time he wastes ticketing perfectly safe driving actions is time he could be spending looking for bad/dangerous drivers (such as at least waiting for someone to make the u-turn who ALSO fails to yield the right-of-way to oncoming traffic forcing them to slow down). That is impeding traffic, and I'm all for fines on that!
Lots of people? Based on what we've been told, we know of only one person who tried to make a U-turn (against the sign) there. We don't know how many have made U-turns there or tried to make U-turns there.
Maybe it's not so much that they need more signs. I haven't seen the sign and you haven't either. Maybe some drivers need to be more aware of their surroundings. You know, to see things like signs, two patrol cars sitting there...
What I really love is the defense: I turned safely so why should I get a ticket for violating a "no U-turn" zone? That's a good one. I'll try to use that next time I am stopped for a moving violation: Hey, officer, no one got hurt, so what's the problem?
As if only people who cause damage/injury should get tickets. :confuse:
I always felt that people who drove powerful cars were underpowered people. :P
Exactly! I would also say that the power to weight ratio usually isn't a critical factor for driving enjoyment. My three "enthusiast" cars range in horsepower from 98 to 287, and each one is a total blast to drive. That said, on a track with a lot of elevation changes -such as Road Atlanta or Watkins Glen- more power generally does = more fun.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Great minds think alike; I sent my son to two day teen school at the BMW Performance Center as well as the BMW CCA Foundation's one day Street Survival course(which let him experience how his car handled in extreme situations).
Funny thing; he has proven to be a very responsible driver, so I told him when he went off to college I'd help him buy a 330i ZHP, E36 M3, or similar. He told me he'd rather drive his mom's 2004 X3 2.5 because "If I get something that's even a bit fast I'll get into trouble with it."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I ran the 2000 ALCAN Winter Rally; from Seattle to Quesnel, Whitehorse, Tok, Valdez, Fairbanks, Prudhoe Bay(all the way to Oliktok Point- on the shores of the Arctic Ocean), back to Fairbanks, and finishing up in Anchorage. We had a new X5 4.4 and I managed to see 120 mph for several minutes on a dry mountain ridge road between Valdez and Fairbanks...
My son and I are running the 2014 ALCAN Summer Rally, assuming we can get either BMW to loan us an X1 or Mini to cough up a Countryman ALL4...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Courses like your kiddo took should be required as part of the licensing process. I'd even be willing for my tax dollars to subsidize them. Would save a ton of money in medical bills and damaged sheet metal.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Raining in S. Michigan so we're blowing off the Canadian loop and heading for the Soo and home. Wimping out in my old age, not to mention my night vision has gotten lousy. Mid September weather is often dicey but at least snow won't be an issue. There is a little road to WhiteFish Point that looks like a nice detour though if the inconsiderate weather breaks.
Twisted but paved. Beautiful scenery, but you won't have time to look. I'd suggest the above-linked Route 28 that runs in Smokeys south of Lake Fontana. Locals commented how many motorcycle riders die riding that road trying to have fun on the turns and twists.
For the brave folks loving natural beauty, you can enjoy rafting and kayaking on the Nanatahala River in the controlled outflow from a TVA dam. We just took the train ride from Bryson City along the river and Fontana Lake.
Rafting/kayaking once you get there...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's not true. I said they probably nabbed a dozen people in an hour. Based on my 15 minute observation, seeing them nab a couple before me (already parked receiving their piece of paper garbage), and another after me, you can estimate the dozen in an hour from the fact they got 3 or 4 within 15 minutes, it's reasonable to assume many many people make the U-turn in question.
Maybe some drivers need to be more aware of their surroundings. You know, to see things like signs, two patrol cars sitting there...
The sign was in a spot that didn't need to be looked at or seen in order to drive safely. The important thing when making the U-turn (which had it's own left lane turn lane into a parking lot), is to look at oncoming traffic and make sure you don't cause any conflicts with oncoming traffic, or with any vehicles exiting the parking lot and turning right. There is really no need to be scanning more to the right side where the sign post was placed.
Furthermore, there were no patrol cars sitting at the intersection U-turn spot in question as I said. The were not on the roadway at all in fact. They were parked at about 200' back in the parking lot adjacent to a grassy median that is adjacent to a wide sidewalk that is adjacent to the other 3 lanes of roadway.
Also, even at that distance and away from the roadway in question (and I dont' believe there's any reason for a driver on the roadway to distinguish things in the parking lot not near the exit zones (such as what's going on at Best Buy while your driving???), there were no patrol cars in the parking lot either. I said they had two officers, and two motorcycles parked among other vehicles in a big parking lot. A bike is not a car.
If they wanted to be seen or noticed, why wouldn't they just camp out on the grassy center median by where the U-turn takes place and have a picnic?
As if only people who cause damage/injury should get tickets.
Nice red herring.
No need to make a ridiculous argument. The point is that a ticket shouldn't be issued unless the turn was unsafe in some manner, and posed a risk or hazard in some way. Just because you do something unsafely doesn't mean an accident will occur, it could just be a close call.
Your probably wondering how does one determine if something is unsafe? Well, the simple answer is that the action should result in some kind of impediment to traffic. Someone or something should be affected by the movement you made. Opposite side oncoming traffic being forced to use there brakes to avoid a near miss would be one. Failure to yield to a right of way to a right turner coming out of the adjacent parking lot would be another.
For speeding, whizzing by a bicyclist at 100 MPH from 1 foot away almost knocking them over would be another example of something unsafe.
A LLC causing another vehicle to turn on the brake lights in the left lane is yet another example.
A fine idea. I'm all for better driver training and do think it would save tons of money in many forms over the long haul.
However, are we going to bailout all the Auto Body shops across America? I'm sure the body shops across America would lose tremendous amounts of revenues. These are American small businesses, don't they deserve a bailout?
Also, if American cars really have improved to be the equal of imports, then I suppose tow truck drivers will need a bailout as well. Not only will they not have business from Dodge owners anymore, they will also lose business from towing wrecked cars due to that driver's training improvement.
I'd say you have a keeper there! May I trade sons with you?! :P
So not only did you miss seeing the U-turn sign, you didn't see the two other cars pulled over receiving tickets? And that didn't give you some pause? What WERE you doing while driving that day?
The sign was in a spot that didn't need to be looked at or seen in order to drive safely.
Since you didn't see an important sign, it appears you were not driving safely. Safe drivers observe their surroundings, including signs like "no U-turn".
The important thing when making the U-turn (which had it's own left lane turn lane into a parking lot), is to look at oncoming traffic and make sure you don't cause any conflicts with oncoming traffic, or with any vehicles exiting the parking lot and turning right. There is really no need to be scanning more to the right side where the sign post was placed.
Another important thing before making a U-turn is looking to see if the intersection has been posted as "no U-turn". An experienced driver like you should know that those are pretty common, so you can't assume that every intersection allows U-turns. Just like it's important before making a right turn on red to look for a "no right turn on red" sign.
The point is that a ticket shouldn't be issued unless the turn was unsafe in some manner, and posed a risk or hazard in some way. Just because you do something unsafely doesn't mean an accident will occur, it could just be a close call.
In other words... it's OK to break a traffic law if you do the unlawful act in a safe manner? So for example, if you decide you want to drive the wrong way down a road, but you're lucky that day and you don't hit anyone or cause other vehicles to take evasive action to avoid an accident, then if an officer observes you driving the wrong way down the road, they should let you be because "no harm, no foul"?
Looks like there's no room in your mind for the concept of, "This driver ignores posted signs; that's an unsafe driving practice in general so we are going to stop him for that."
We subsidize ungrateful nations, some of which arguably shouldn't exist. Why not industries that at least exist on our soil.
They weren't pulled over per say. They were parked in a big large parking lot parked like any other of hundreds of cars.
Why would I be paying attention to a parking lot more than 5 lanes of distance from me?
Since you didn't see an important sign, it appears you were not driving safely. Safe drivers observe their surroundings, including signs like "no U-turn".
Who says that it was an important sign? That's a big assumption based on no facts. If they wanted to have the sign seen, they'd of placed it better. It exists for revenue generation; no other reason.
if you decide you want to drive the wrong way down a road, but you're lucky that day and you don't hit anyone or cause other vehicles to take evasive action to avoid an accident, then if an officer observes you driving the wrong way down the road, they should let you be because "no harm, no foul"?
That example makes no sense unless the road was closed off and no traffic was coming against you. A car seeing someone go the wrong way will be freaked out by that unsafe manuever. A U-turn doesn't freak anyone out.
This driver ignores posted signs; that's an unsafe driving practice in general so we are going to stop him for that."
Depends on the sign and if it is warranted and substantiated by reasons other than revenue generation. Didn't someone just the other day point out that streets might be safer with no signage?
That brings me to another thing I hate, signs with times, dates, and hours on them. Like "No right turn on red 6-9 AM and 4-6 PM."
Takes way too long to process, and seriously, I can better judge traffic conditions than a clock can.
No, I have facts.
1) The sign tells all drivers that no U-turns are permitted at the intersection. That is an important thing for drivers to know.
2) The sign was important specifically for you. Had you seen it, and heeded it, you wouldn't have received a ticket.
Here's an idea for you, as far-fetched as it may seem:
* Tell yourself: "I made a mistake. I didn't see a sign I should have seen, and because of that I got a ticket."
* Then move on. For once, don't blame others for a mistake YOU made.
When I need to make a U-turn, I just make sure the road is clear, and do it. I don't look for a sign, but I do look for revenuers.
Everyone has their own definition of "fun" when driving. What to drive, where to drive.
In my area, nice twisties can be found in NW Illinois and SW, West WISC. Usually not too much traffic on many of these, especially on week days. Great to drive briskly, but safely, and also catch some glimpses of foliage color in autumn.
Most fun, with a small element of danger, and great scenery, and driving sanely, have been: US 550 between Durango and Ouray Colo. Especially the segment between Silverton and Ouray with lots of dropoffs within a couple-few feet of edge of pavement. Next, the drive up Pikes Peak on a sunny day when the top half was still gravel.
Was quite a while ago, but think I too was on US 129 when on a vacation trip to Gatlinberg and Smoky Mountain Park. Beautiful drive if not stuck behind someone or a line of vehicles.
Only if there is a good reason for the sign to exist in the first place. As we have established here, our cities traffic engineers seem to be overpaid and underqualified.
2) The sign was important specifically for you. Had you seen it, and heeded it, you wouldn't have received a ticket.
That doesn't make it important, it would have just made it more convenient. The truth is if they wanted the sign to be obeyed, they'd post it better. They like having the sign in that spot, it makes them more money $$$