Ford Freestyle - Taurus X

passat_2002

Chain? I'm fairly certain that our Freestyle's have a stainless steel belt. Nissan uses a rubber one. Perhaps that is what you were trying to say.

arumage

I got chain-driven info from a Wikipedia. I've looked at the actual unit though.

"The 2005 Ford Freestyle and Five Hundred use a new chain-driven CVT allowing engine torque to go up to 300 N•m. The transmission was designed in cooperation with the German company ZF Sachs and is currently produced in Batavia, Ohio."

Wiki Link

lanbaba

If my memory serves me good, I think Nissan's CVT and Ford's CVT are totally different designs. Murano is using the Toroidal CVTs, while Ford is using Pulley CVTs. Correct me if I'm wrong. And I don't think Toroidal needs a belt.

passat_2002

Don't know how authoritative Wikipedia is. They sure got the name ZF Friedrichshafen AG wrong.

Maybe it's just semantics. As in.. one man's belt is another man's chain.

Soon it won't matter anyway.
This is from an article I saw two years ago:

"Initial tests show that while the performance and efficiency of both CVT and 6-speed automatic are about the same, economics may be the differentiator, moving forward. CVTs are more complicated and more expensive to build. And several manufacturers are working together on cost-effective 6-speed transmissions. GM was the first to cancel its CVT program and others may soon follow."

bruneau1

There is a picture of the belt-chain of the Ford CVT. It is an intricate chain and expensive to produce. I believe Ford must buy it from Germany even though they build the transmission in Ohio. I have driven the Nissan CVT and it is very good one, but then so is the Ford's. But adieu.

coldcranker

"And yet the Freestyle's very close cousin (the 500) had better EPA figures with the 6-spd over the CVT. Makes you wonder. "

That 6-speed was/is the Aisin-sourced Japanese 6-speed, not the new GM/Ford joint project 6-speed we see in the Edge/TaurusX. the Edge has the same GM/Ford 6-speed, so expect the TaurusX to be within 1 MPG of that. You can reduce energy losses using a 6-speed very well, although you still have jerky gear shifting. The FWD Ford500 with the Aisin unit is good, although aerodynamics and weight are both better on the sedan version of the Freesytle, raising numbers a bit. With refinement, over the long run, a CVT can be made lighter, cheaper, with more reliability, less noise, etc. than a set of fixed gears.

freealfas

"With refinement, over the long run, a CVT can be made lighter, cheaper, with more reliability, less noise, etc. than a set of fixed gears."

Well... now we all know why Ford decided to get out of using this technology... it all makes sense...

passat_2002

Ford has not "decided to get out of using this technology". The Hybrid Escape will continue to use a CVT. Many Ford models in Europe use a CVT as well.

passat_2002

"You can reduce energy losses using a 6-speed very well, although you still have jerky gear shifting."

A bit melodramatic perhaps. But I think what Ford has learned from their CVT experience with the 500/Freestyle, is that Americans prefer a conventional transmission over a CVT. (We like our shift-points, "jerky" or not.) GM came to this conclusion two years earlier. The exception to this is the person who will buy a hybrid vehicle. They relish being "different" to begin with, and are therefore more accepting of the CVT's characteristics. They are just a different kind of buyer altogether. But "bread & butter" America wants a fuel-efficient conventional automatic transmission. And that is what Ford intends to give them.

northlakes

I think the Freestyle and Murano CVTs are more similar than different. I found this in a review of the 2006 Murano.

"The Nissan Murano also features Nissan’s advanced Xtronic CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission). Unlike conventional stepped gear automatics, the Xtronic CVT operates as essentially “one gear” through use of a belt and two pulleys.

By infinitely varying the working diameters of the two pulleys, the transmission eliminates the “steps” between gears, resulting in a smoother, more efficient operation by keeping the engine in its optimum power range under a variety of driving and load conditions. This benefit is especially apparent in long uphill drives where the traditional hunting for the proper gear is virtually eliminated."

That being said, I believe most hybrids, including the Ford Escape and Toyota Prius and 400H use a toroidal style CVT. In any case, there are a lot of CVTs out there. :shades:

northlakes

Just a note about hybrid buyers, they don't choose the CVT, the CVT chooses them. The CVT is the most compact way to tie two powerplants together (on the fly) without having a king-sized engine compartment.

I have driven my CVT Freestyle for two years, and have driven a Mercury Milan with Aisin 6-speed. Each has their advantages at different speeds. :shades:

barnstormer64

But I think what Ford has learned from their CVT experience with the 500/Freestyle, is that Americans prefer a conventional transmission over a CVT. (We like our shift-points, "jerky" or not.) GM came to this conclusion two years earlier.

For those who simply refuse to enjoy the refinements of the CVT, the manufacturers COULD just offer a "shift point" program for those who simply must have the herky/jerky of a traditional automatic.

passat_2002

Interesting idea. You could indeed. But I have a feeling most would opt for the "shift-point" feel, thereby defeating the whole reason for having a CVT to begin with.

freestyle06

I just bought an '06 Freestyle SEL with the MP3/CDx6 player. At night, all the typical buttons (e.g. climate control, steering wheel controls, window switches, etc.) light up in green but the buttons on the stereo do not, which seems odd. The dealer has installed 3 different stereos in the car and in all cases, the buttons didn't light up, so I'm afraid it's something with the wiring. Has anyone else had this problem? Thanks.

coldcranker

"But I think what Ford has learned from their CVT experience with the 500/Freestyle,..."

There is a war between 6-or-8-speed automatics and CVTs. Remember Nissan is going big-time with CVTs, and Audi has had good experiences with it, too. In addition, Chrysler/Mitsubishi are using it right now as well (Caliber/Lancer). And then there are all the hybrids. Ford is abandoning CVTs somewhat in the Freestyle because its cheaper to equip vehicles with the jointly-developed GM/Ford 6-speed and some of the public, I'll agree, doesn't understand torque curves vs. optimal ratios, but they do understand that "a 6-speed is better than a 4-speed" automatic (marketing!). And who really thinks a conventional automatic is reliable? There are thousands of Aamco tranny shops everywhere for a reason.

Ford's real problem is the low reliability. Consumer Reports is showing "much worse than average" reliablity, while Hondas/Toyotas/Nissans continue to score well. Ford has a terrible reputation for poor quality. I bought mine and had no trouble with it in almost 2 years, and the design is great, but I can see how many would steer clear of Ford with those real-world statistical measurements.

passat_2002

It means your dealer's service department is incompetent. A new radio requires proper initialization with the correct codes entered into it. The fact that your radio's background lighting is still inop means they never bothered to read the instructions on how to install properly. After three attempts, and three new radios, I would be furious if I were you.

coldcranker

The Freestyle/500/Montego sales figures show the sad state of affairs. I personally don't understand it, since I own a Freestyle and think its smart engineering.

2006 2005
Ford500 84,218 107,932
Montego 22,332 27,007
Freestyle 58,602 76,739

Ford thought they would hit 250,000 units total (all three) per year, originally! There are probably 150,000 Freestyles (add '07 models) on the road now, and, with another couple of years of TaurusX's, maybe that figure will reach 250,000 for that basic body.

passat_2002

"Consumer Reports is showing "much worse than average" reliablity, while Hondas/Toyotas/Nissans continue to score well."

I strongly disagree with you. As far as I know, CR shows no such thing. You're 15 years behind the times.

coldcranker

passat_2002, Look at the facts. Look in the CR 2007 Buying Guide (library). There is a black dot for the '05 Freestyle overall. Say it ain't so, Shoeless Joe!

barnstormer64

There is a black dot for the '05 Freestyle overall.

Probably because those of us who own them and love them either don't buy CR, or don't fill out their stupid survey.s :P

passat_2002

If I listened to what CR says, I probably wouldn't own anything!

I think the '05 AWD may have had some early teething problems. My '05 FWD has been flawless. Makes it very hard to pay much attention to what CR says.

coldcranker

The CR Reliability Ratings are based on valid statistical samplings of real-world people (about a thousand or so in a random sampling), and they are accurate to within the statistical uncertainty of about 0.5%. My Freestyle is flawless, too, but that doesn't mean its been the average experience. (As an aside, I'm an engineer myself, and I think the reason why American car makers get beat on reliability (historically overall) in general is due to the management/budget pressures which push products out the door too soon before the engineer has a moment to reflect on the design and make it reliable.) We could close the small gap between American car reliability (i.e, Freestyle's) and Toyota's by allowing the engineers to defeat the bean counters.

freestyle06

Thanks for the reply and I agree that the service dept. is incompetent (the dealer's sales dept. was even worse but I won't get into that in this discussion...). What would you suggest I do to fix the problem?

passat_2002

Even an incompetent service department can do the job properly if you tell them what they're doing wrong. (Not that you should have to.)

freealfas

"The CR Reliability Ratings are based on valid statistical samplings of real-world people (about a thousand or so in a random sampling), and they are accurate to within the statistical uncertainty of about 0.5%"

uhhh yeah, .5% I'll believe that every day of the week. They panned the FS reliability before they could get an accurrate statistical analysis and it was in the driveway of consumer's less than a year... CR related to the automotive field(i.e. using it for reference to a car purchase and a shameless crutch for those that can't think for themselves)is for sheep...Baaaaaa.

Even the almighty toyota is having it's problem's, so I wish people would quit throwing CR out as fact as more often than not it's fiction...

passat_2002

"The CR Reliability Ratings are based on valid statistical samplings of real-world people (about a thousand or so in a random sampling), and they are accurate to within the statistical uncertainty of about 0.5%."

I'm not absolutely sure.. but I think you're quite wrong about this. If you happen to have a subscription to CR, you get a questionnaire. If you don't, you don't get one. Participation for those with the questionnaire is then at their whim. There is absolutely nothing random or scientific about it. In short.. CR's methodology in gathering information is terribly flawed. In fact.. it's laughable.

stever

I trust JD Power more than CR although after skimming tens of 1,000's of posts, I trust you guys even more. :shades:

Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings may be of interest.

passat_2002

Thanks boss. Do I get a raise?

stever

Yes, you just earned a free CarSpace Album.

barnstormer64

The CR Reliability Ratings are based on valid statistical sampling

They can't be valid if large numbers of people are ignoring them (as I do).

Also, how do they control for important details like how well the cars are maintained, etc?

explorerx4

cvt that had artificial shift points built in is old news, audi did it years ago. a4 had a cvt several years ago.

tidester

The CR Reliability Ratings are based on valid statistical samplings of real-world people (about a thousand or so in a random sampling), and they are accurate to within the statistical uncertainty of about 0.5%.

If it were a truly representative sampling then you would require about 40,000 respondents to get a sampling error or 0.5%. But the catch is, as passat_2002 has pointed out, the sampling is not a representative one since not all Freestyle owners are equally likely to respond or even be included in the polling.

tidester, host

beach15

Well you can't have bad or little to no marketing of any sort, along with a general (if incorrect) consensus that the vehicle is a bit bland, and expect them to sell well.

I'm a huge Freestyle/Taurus X fan myself, and always have been, but most people still don't know they exist and those that do don't have the proper idea of what they are. Hopefully that will change for the better with the Taurus X updating, once and for all.

cmuniz

There is a Ford TSB # 05-10-19 on this item that goes back to last year. It started when some 6 CD changers were not reading CDs properly and would skip. The solution was to replace the radios/cd changers. In the instructions the dealer was told to re-program the software to accept the newly installed radio. Several of us had the radios replaced and had the same no-lights problem you have because the dealer did not do the re-programing.Take it back to the dealer and ask them to look back a year in the TSB files to find 05-10-19 and do what they call PMI. It takes a couple of minutes and can be done while you wait if they can schedule you in.

barnstormer64

If it were a truly representative sampling then you would require about 40,000 respondents to get a sampling error or 0.5%.

And that's PER vehicle . . not total respondents.

freestyle06

Thanks! I plan on going to the dealer this week, although I may choose to go to a different one. The guy at the dealer at which I bought the car almost had me believing that it was standard for the radio not to light up. Thanks again.

bruneau1

The FWD Freestyle is average, according to CR. We don't have the latest statistics. Let's remember that even in the case where CR gives a vehicle worse than average, that does not mean the majority are trouble prone, only a higher percentage than average, and these days the percentage is quite low. CR's ratings should be looked at, but not interpreted incorrectly. Also, Ill bet a lot of Toyota owners won't even admit that theirs may have problems.

barnstormer64

Let's remember that even in the case where CR gives a vehicle worse than average, that does not mean the majority are trouble prone, only a higher percentage than average, and these days the percentage is quite low.

Amen to that.

northlakes

Driving a block from my home today, I saw a driveway with two Freestyles, one white and one black. Someone that knows a good thing when they see it. The homeowner does sculpture and crafts and the Freestyle(s) makes a good, classy hauler. :shades:

coldcranker

The Freestyle '05 model year reliability is in. Despite the bizarre arguments on this forum trashing the Consumer Report's statistical methods, CR does indeed use statistical techniques that are completely valid with low margins of error. No, it doesn't matter if many ignore the CR surveys, as all makes/models will have that happen as well. And no, you don't need 40,000 in the random sample to get 0.5%, only 6,000. (Hit the books on random sampling statistics, please.) And no, it doesn't matter that my one Freestyle has been trouble-free, as that is NOT a determiner of the general population. Incidentally, there have been just as many people posting on these forums with severe problems (brakes, tranny, electrical, noises, suspension, etc.) to loosely support the fact that there are some Freestyles experiencing problems.

Bottom line is this: The "Way Below Average" black dot in the 2007 CR Buying Guide, for 2005 model year Freestyles, is real, and can be used to compare with other makes/models to determine which vehicles have more/less problems.

coldcranker

"They panned the FS reliability before ..."

There is an explanation for the skeptical attitude by the CR staff: Ford has had lower reliability ratings, year after year, for the last 20 years at least, consistently, compared to the rest of the industry.

passat_2002

No. The "Bottom line" is that you chose to accept what this publication has to say (despite your personal experience that contradicts their findings)... and the rest of us don't. The "media" puts CR on a pedestal that it doesn't deserve to be on.

pnewby

Amen, and how do you say infant car seats? CR doesn't know how. Only when they are "caught in the act" do they say "oops we were wrong".

volfangary

I also give a hearty AMEN!. CR cannot be trusted. Again infant car seats prove this. Surveys are only filled out by subscribers who take the time to do so. Sure leaves a lot of non-subscribers out of the "random" sample. :confuse:

lateralg

And I think that there's an emotional bias that's impossible to deal with.

Freestyle buyers who experience problems are much more likely to respond to the questionnaire than those who have no problems.

I don't believe that this applies to the same degree with import buyers. I believe they have a need to validate their buying non-American, so they'll be happy to have an opportunity to express the "superiority" of their auto.

I don't have a bias against CR ... I've used their guidance for over thirty years, find it valuable if used with discretion.

stever

I got steered wrong by CR on a canoe purchase back in 1973 and I still haven't gotten over it.

tom_holsinger

The problem is that CR's black star is true for only the first year of many designed & made in America vehicles, notably including the Taurus. Even my Ford dealer told me this, and advised me against the Freestyle when it first came out. I bought a 2006 Freestyle after we couldn't delay giving our daughter a car for college, and then we gave her my wife's Taurus station wagon.

My dealer told me it was safer to get a Freestyle after its first year, because the manufacturing bugs would probably be worked out (the design bugs have to wait for a redesign). And the Freestyle flat out beat the Toyota Highlander in cargo capacity and mpg, as well as being 15% cheaper. I have several children in college and so need a college hauler.

So CR's black star for the 2005 Freestyle did not carry over, for me, to the 2006, because American cars in their first year have lots of manufacturing problems which are generally cured in their second year.

passat_2002

"My dealer told me it was safer to get a Freestyle after its first year, because the manufacturing bugs would probably be worked out."

Your dealer is "old school" then. This is not the good advice it might have been twenty or so years ago. The fact is.. manufacturers today no longer wait for the second year to "work out" the bugs in a new model. They start to work on it as soon as the car goes into production. Quite a few changes are made "within" a model year.

bruneau1

We should read CR with interest but should not take it as falling from heaven anymore than the Bible did.

coldcranker

OK, assume the people at CR are morons. The people at JD Powers, however, should not also suffer the same stupidity gene, should they? Surely they have been to elementary school, at least, enabling them to handle random sampling methods(?) The news is: JD Powers compares closely with CR: They both rate the Freestyle low. Their "Overall Quality" rating of just 2 (out of 5) circles at JD Powers matches the Consumer Reports survey (black dot). The JD Powers results are at Click Here

I'm currently very happy with my '05 Freestyle, but the cars I considered at the time ('05 Pilot, Magnum, Murano, Highlander) all score much better except for the Magnum. At least I paid less for the Freestyle ($22,500) than what you'd have to pay for the others. Of course, reliability isn't the whole picture, as Freestyle has many other features that overcome it's low reliability ratings. Ford has a reputation problem, and people are avoiding Freestyles because of the ratings.

Review of the facts:
1. Freestyle rated very low in CR '07 Buying Guide
2. Freestyle rated very low in JD Powers surveys
3. People struggle with statistical sampling concepts.