Dealer salescritters care about one thing only -- selling you a car today. 99% of "be-backs" don't come back. Therefore, a vehicle (e.g., the Touareg) that they can't sell today is of little interest to them.
Talk about poor market research. Even a simple non-descriptive alpha-numeric designation would be better. Does anyone actually LIKE the name? Just wondering who VW asked out in the buying public before they decided this was the way to go.
In general I think car naming is silly, names invoke feelings, sometimes positive sometimes not. If a name is to be used carefull research should be used to come up with names that are at least neutral or abstract in meaning.
VW has to have the worst naming nomenclature of all car makers, Rabbit geee, Jetta! Touareg!!!
Their image will improve a lot better if they adopt an alpha numeric system of model cataloging.
Even when people complained about the vehicle being named for an African tribe which engaged in slave trading, Volkswagen dismissed it. They did change the spelling slightly (Touareg vs. Tuareg) so maybe that's how they justify that it really isn't named after those certain African people but just a name pulled out of a hat that some coporate big shots thought sounded fun to pronounce.
But generally, I disagree that cars should be designated just by alfa numerics. Names do invoke a lot of emotion and to Americans, cars are very emotional objects. On-the-other-and, most European manufacturers use alfa-numeric names but I'm sure Europeans are just as emotional about cars as Americans ...so, nevermind --I have no idea what point I'm trying to make here.*chuckles*
It's just that if, let's say, VW named the Touareg by its platform designation of T5 (I think that's what it is), it just wouldn't invoke as much excitement, IMHO.
I have lots of trouble remembering alpha-numeric designations on cars - I'd recognize an RX300, but would not be able to describe any of the Lexus GX's for example. I have no such trouble differentiating Golf's from Jettas though.
there's nothing to complain about because it's not out yet. The name is a disaster. As for alpha-numeric naming well we all can probably identify the vehicles we are interested in.
Other unknown quantities/concerns/gripes are coming late to the party without a third row seat; a 4wd system that's more or less a first for the company and unproven; VW's less than perfect reliability/durability record.
On the plus side I love the idea of a SUV that combines the on-road handling of a BMW/Mercedes yet still has real offroad capability, and theoretically the adjustable air suspension accomplishes both.
There seem to be plenty of SUV's (and heaven forbid, minivans) that are available with 3 rows. Personally I'd rather have an extra-roomy second row, with the rear storage area devoted to maximizing cargo space (with a flat loading floor) and save the extra weight and cost that a third row adds. Most 3rd rows on mid-sized SUV's are just for small children anyway - for comfortable seating for more than 5, you need to move up to a Suburban, Expedition, etc (or heaven forbid, a minivan).
Steve-- I'm with ya on that one. It's difficult for me to distinguish various "distinctions" (?) in a model line when alfa-numerics are used unless I really study and examine them closely ...yeah, Lexus is a good example and even the 3-series BMWs I have a difficult time distinguishing. Since I grew up in an era where cars had *names*, I'm probably predisposed to the fact that it's the way it should be ...I guess I'm just going to have to find a way to get with it with all this alfa numericism.
Third row seating: I agree with JBaumgart. For safety reasons, I don't believe SUVs of this size should have the third row. As Joel said, those seats seem to be designed for children. I don't think you'd want your children back there if you were involved in an accident where somebody is rear ending you. IMO, if you have a big family, buy a "Subrban, Expedition, etc (or heaven forbid, a minivan)."
As stated before, I too would prefer not to have space in the second row compromised too severely for the sake of accommodating an undersized third row. (BTW, check out the width of Touareg's rear doors. They're as wide as the front.) If the second row could be moved back far enough back when the third is tucked away, then that might be a decent compromise, but the question remains who could safely and comfortably be seated in the third row?
The best thing I can say about the name "Touareg" is that it may discourage enough people from even considering the vehicle so as to keep the price down for the rest of us. That is until word gets out about the true qualities of the vehicle, then all bets are off.
What the heck is a Camry and how does an Accord relate to an automobile? What starts as a non-sensical name can very easily become part of everyday vocabulary. If the car is good.
I believe that certain makes use number classifications becuase they want to you to refer to the brand not the model. That is an Acura, Audi, BMW, MB, etc.
VW has had significant awd experience in vehicles including the Passat 4 Motion, various Vanagon's (rare in the US for obvious reasons), the R32 and probably other vehicles most of us are not aware of.
As for VW's less than stellar reliability; I'd trade off less reliability for what will likely become class leading resale (such as the Passat). In addition VW (and Audi) design and attention to details are way above the competition. Watch what happens to M class Mercedes, X5 BMW, RX300 and Acura MDX sales after production is in full swing on the Touareg...
I agree with what was said by the three previous posters ...some good comments.
I'd add that the new 4XMOTION being used on the Touareg, from what I read somewhere, is still "based" on the 4Motion which in turn is essentially the Audi quattro. As we all know, the quattro is legendary and superior to any other awd system. To read about the new 4XMOTION from VW's press release, makes it sound like the ideal system ...brilliantly engineered. It will have to be far more superincumbant to any of its competion, IMHO.
If the Touareg were to be offered with a manual transmission, I'd be in line waiting at my VW dealer! ...it sure sounds like the perfect vehicle for my desires. But since it won't be available in a manual, what are my options? *scratches head*
There are 2 distinctly different AWD systems that VW calls 4Motion and Audi calls Quattro. The Audi A4 and A6 Quattro's use a Torsen system. This is the same system used in the Passat 4Motion. In contrast, the Audi TT and VW Golf and Jetta 4Motion (in Europe, not imported here yet) use a Haldex system.
According to the link in post #189, this system is a permanent all wheel drive with open differentials center/front/rear, with center having an electronically actuated, full range (0-100 to 100-0) locking mechanism, rear having a fix, 50/50 locking mechanism on driver demand only.
No Torsen of any kind, and the limited slip differential effect is achieved on the two wheels on the same axle by selective braking (what they call EDL). Much like BMW's ADB-X, it seems. Let's hope that it works better than BMW's system though. It has been reported to perform poorly and consume brake pads at a frantic pace. But then you don't drive a 3 series at a same pace than a Touareg
C&D really fell over themselves on the Touareg V8. It even beat the more expensive Lexus GX470. I was surprised the vehicle is so heavy, but that didn't hurt it.
Despite the weight, 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, 70-0 in 170 feet, 61.5mph in the emergency handling maneuver; best of all the SUV's in the comparison. As far as tradtional SUV chores go, 7,700 lb towing capacity (just 16 lbs shy of taking top honors), and it tied the Discovery and GX470 in C&D off-roading capability rating. Luxury was considered top-notch, beating even the Lexus according to the scoring.
I'll say - I'm amazed as it outpointed the others by a considerable margin, 95 to 91 for the second-best finisher, the GX470. Including the GX470 there were 5 vehicles bunched from 86-91. The Touareg scored all 9's and 10's except "on-road ride" where it got an 8 - only the GX470 fared better in this category with a 9.
Based on C&D's very favorable review in the December issue I was looking at the Aviator as a possibility, but now I think I'll pospone any buying decisions until the Toaureg arrives next year.
And are you sure about 61.5 *mph* at the emergency maneuver? What is this maneuver? Is this the elk test? Even a Porsche Carrera 4 does not score as well. Are you sure it's not 61.5 kph?
It was mph. I saw the review this weekend at a friends place. Unfortunately, I don't recall what the test was, but since C&D is an American publication, I don't think it is the elk test.
Touareg with the V8 to be shipped in the U.S. Obviously the 6-cylinder won't be as powerful.
And are you sure about 61.5 *mph* at the emergency maneuver? What is this maneuver? Is this the elk test? Even a Porsche Carrera 4 does not score as well. Are you sure it's not 61.5 kph?
Yes, it was miles-per-hour. The test is described as an "emergency lane change" test. The average speed was, IIRC, 57.5 mph. No other vehicle in the comparison, including the X5 3.0i, was faster than 59 mph in the test. The test may not be comparable with the "emergency maneuever" test of other publications, and useful only in comparing the vehicles that were tested simultaneously.
I'd imagine the Touareg V8's suspension and its near-equal weight distribution (50.5/49.5) had something to do with it.
I just got back from a trip to Germany. I went to the VW showroom and saw the new SUV. It was released here on Nov. 22. I saw the V10 TDI version. It is a very nice SUV, however the price is a big steep -- 73,000 Euros. I will probably be the bust SUV on the market if it makes it to the US. It does have a smaller interior than most other SUVs, but the size is perfect for me.
As much as I love VW, I can't pay $70,000 for a car that has all the same switches in it that my $24,000 Jetta does. :-)
I hear that the V10 TDI will be the top of the line engine, and I'm sure the one you saw was fully loaded. Still a steep price to pay, for sure. I wish I could win the lottery or something, because the TDI would be the engine of choice for me - well over 300 HP, over 500 ft-lbs of torque, excellent performance on and off road, and fuel economy that beats my A4.
I wonder if there is a push for VW to make a V6 diesel available. That would probably be all I could afford
Its is down right crazy that most of the manufs do not bring diesels stateside. With the imporvement in mpg scores for their vehs and the pent up demand you can bet that each and every diesel suv (Toureg, ML, Landy...) and sedan (phaeton, E, S...). Diesel is good it is green like the pumps, cars get better mpg, lower greenhouse gases, last longer there by reducing pollution.
Look at the rest of the world, Diesels are so popular there and have a big following here as well in the states. Lets not send our Dollars overseas in the form of oil imports, switch to diesels and save.
VW has done a great thing bringing Jettas, Bugs with diesels but not the Passat and now the new Phaeton why not?
But they can't until we get the low-sulfer diesel fuel that Europe uses. These advanced diesels require it. If you've noticed, the VW TDI cars sold here don't have anywhere near the power of the VW TDI cars in Europe. Our diesel prevents them from getting as much out of the engine, and will effectively outlaw diesels in cars in the coming years as new emmisions laws take effect.
The full-size domestic trucks here offer diesels, but trucks aren't subject to the same emmisions requirements and the available engines aren't as high-tech as the European ones either.
Assuming everything falls into place (mainly low-sulfer diesel actually being introduced and not falling victim to the trucking lobby), Ford, Jeep, VW and others will be introducing diesels into the US market.
The V10 TDI will be in the US Touareg, but it may be a few years till that happens.
The V10 TDI will be in the US Touareg, but it may be a few years till that happens. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- tire...,
You may be trying to be realistic, but current reliable word (i.e. vwvortex) is that the V10 TDI will be introduced to the US sometime in 2004. Let's just think good thoughts and it may really happen.
Dayton, Ohio: Jim, love your reviews. Question: will you test drive a VW with the TDI diesel engine? 49/50 miles per gallon highway, with approx 150 ft lbs of torque & not the typical smell and black smoke typical of diesels. Seems like we should be singing the praise of a vehicle with those specs and a 'non' hybrid besides!
Jim Healey: I've driven the diesel in several models, New Beetle most recently. But there's nothing new there to write about. It's as great as ever. If people could drive VW and Mercedes diesels for a week, I bet the U.S. wouldn't have this irrational anti-diesel attitude. In Germany, in fact, there's a segment of folks who consider the diesel the highest status of all. You get your Audi A8 or M-B S-class or BMW 7-series not with a whomping big V-8 or V-12 gas engine to show how elite you are, but with a diesel. I drove a prototype Audi A8 diesel a couple of years ago and it was dandy.
The problem is that it takes no-sulfur diesel fuel to eliminate one kind of pollutant, and there's no such animal just now. U.S. diesel has 300 to 500 ppm sulfur, going down to 30 or so under new regs, but still not far enough to clean up the exhaust as many folks think it should be. Why diesel critics aren't hammering instead on the oil companies to spend the dough to refine diesel into 0% sulfur, or to develop synthetic diesel (it can be made from cheap, plentiful, U.S.-provided natural gas), is a bit hard to figure
found a way for the V10 TDI to pass emissions. They didn't know if it would pass emissions. The Touareg looks great and has great initial appeal, but the true test is to see if it has sub-standard reliability and quality like the POS Jetta I have.
Trucks have less stringent emissions requirements than cars. What I wonder is how they're going to get the V10TDI to work with our high sulfur fuel. I don't think we're going to have low-sulfur diesel by that time. I'm with you on the quality issue as my 2K GTI GLX has been problematic. Of greater concern to me is the quality (or, rather, lack of same) of the dealer network. US VW dealers can't fix their current cars. Someone paying $60k for a vehicle would not put up with the service fiascos that I've had.
Synthetic diesel fuels can be made from carbon containing feedstocks, such as natural gas or Tropsch in the 1920's. That process has been further developed by oil companies and is coal, in a process developed by Fischer and considered a viable option of natural gas utilization. Synthetic diesel fuels are characterized by excellent properties, such as very high cetane number and no sulfur content. They can be used in existing diesel engines without modifications or mixed with petrodiesel. Several studies found significant reductions in all regulated diesel emissions, including NOx and PM, when using synthetic fuel.
Biodiesel
Biodiesel is a renewable diesel fuel derived from a number of vegetable oils. This paper presents a general characterization of biodiesel and discusses its influence on exhaust emissions as well as the compatibility of biodiesel with materials in conventional petroleum diesel engines
I think the main reason why manufacturers don't bring the diesel to the states are your LEV, ULEV and SULEV emission-standards. Even if the problem with the sulfer will be solved a diesel engine emits NOx and superfine particles unfiltered (only the make Peugeot has a particle filter system). In Austria more than 50% of the cars are diesels and in areas with high traffic the air quality is really bad. And now imagine that in LA...
Comments
offering...
--'rocco
VW has to have the worst naming nomenclature of all car makers, Rabbit geee, Jetta! Touareg!!!
Their image will improve a lot better if they adopt an alpha numeric system of model cataloging.
But generally, I disagree that cars should be designated just by alfa numerics. Names do invoke a lot of emotion and to Americans, cars are very emotional objects. On-the-other-and, most European manufacturers use alfa-numeric names but I'm sure Europeans are just as emotional about cars as Americans ...so, nevermind --I have no idea what point I'm trying to make here.*chuckles*
It's just that if, let's say, VW named the Touareg by its platform designation of T5 (I think that's what it is), it just wouldn't invoke as much excitement, IMHO.
--'rocco
Steve, Host
Other unknown quantities/concerns/gripes are coming late to the party without a third row seat; a 4wd system that's more or less a first for the company and unproven; VW's less than perfect reliability/durability record.
On the plus side I love the idea of a SUV that combines the on-road handling of a BMW/Mercedes yet still has real offroad capability, and theoretically the adjustable air suspension accomplishes both.
Third row seating: I agree with JBaumgart. For safety reasons, I don't believe SUVs of this size should have the third row. As Joel said, those seats seem to be designed for children. I don't think you'd want your children back there if you were involved in an accident where somebody is rear ending you. IMO, if you have a big family, buy a "Subrban, Expedition, etc (or heaven forbid, a minivan)."
--'rocco
The best thing I can say about the name "Touareg" is that it may discourage enough people from even considering the vehicle so as to keep the price down for the rest of us. That is until word gets out about the true qualities of the vehicle, then all bets are off.
VW has had significant awd experience in vehicles including the Passat 4 Motion, various Vanagon's (rare in the US for obvious reasons), the R32 and probably other vehicles most of us are not aware of.
As for VW's less than stellar reliability; I'd trade off less reliability for what will likely become class leading resale (such as the Passat). In addition VW (and Audi) design and attention to details are way above the competition. Watch what happens to M class Mercedes, X5 BMW, RX300 and Acura MDX sales after production is in full swing on the Touareg...
But Porsche is no novice in awd either... See the 959, but also the two victories at the '84 and '86 Paris-Dakar rallye raid...
I'd add that the new 4XMOTION being used on the Touareg, from what I read somewhere, is still "based" on the 4Motion which in turn is essentially the Audi quattro. As we all know, the quattro is legendary and superior to any other awd system. To read about the new 4XMOTION from VW's press release, makes it sound like the ideal system ...brilliantly engineered. It will have to be far more superincumbant to any of its competion, IMHO.
Click here for the VW press release describing the 4XMOTION
If the Touareg were to be offered with a manual transmission, I'd be in line waiting at my VW dealer! ...it sure sounds like the perfect vehicle for my desires. But since it won't be available in a manual, what are my options? *scratches head*
--'rocco
No Torsen of any kind, and the limited slip differential effect is achieved on the two wheels on the same axle by selective braking (what they call EDL). Much like BMW's ADB-X, it seems. Let's hope that it works better than BMW's system though. It has been reported to perform poorly and consume brake pads at a frantic pace. But then you don't drive a 3 series at a same pace than a Touareg
www.VWVortex.com
Touareg 5500 lbs
Aviator 5100 lbs
GX470 4900 lbs
Question is, underneath the new heavyweight champion, is it Teutonic iron or German sausage?
Despite the weight, 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, 70-0 in 170 feet, 61.5mph in the emergency handling maneuver; best of all the SUV's in the comparison. As far as tradtional SUV chores go, 7,700 lb towing capacity (just 16 lbs shy of taking top honors), and it tied the Discovery and GX470 in C&D off-roading capability rating. Luxury was considered top-notch, beating even the Lexus according to the scoring.
Very impressive performance.
Based on C&D's very favorable review in the December issue I was looking at the Aviator as a possibility, but now I think I'll pospone any buying decisions until the Toaureg arrives next year.
And are you sure about 61.5 *mph* at the emergency maneuver? What is this maneuver? Is this the elk test? Even a Porsche Carrera 4 does not score as well. Are you sure it's not 61.5 kph?
Touareg with the V8 to be shipped in the U.S. Obviously the 6-cylinder won't be as powerful.
And are you sure about 61.5 *mph* at the emergency maneuver? What is this maneuver? Is this the elk test? Even a Porsche Carrera 4 does not score as well. Are you sure it's not 61.5 kph?
Yes, it was miles-per-hour. The test is described as an "emergency lane change" test. The average speed was, IIRC, 57.5 mph. No other vehicle in the comparison, including the X5 3.0i, was faster than 59 mph in the test. The test may not be comparable with the "emergency maneuever" test of other publications, and useful only in comparing the vehicles that were tested simultaneously.
I'd imagine the Touareg V8's suspension and its near-equal weight distribution (50.5/49.5) had something to do with it.
As much as I love VW, I can't pay $70,000 for a car that has all the same switches in it that my $24,000 Jetta does. :-)
I hear that the V10 TDI will be the top of the line engine, and I'm sure the one you saw was fully loaded. Still a steep price to pay, for sure. I wish I could win the lottery or something, because the TDI would be the engine of choice for me - well over 300 HP, over 500 ft-lbs of torque, excellent performance on and off road, and fuel economy that beats my A4.
I wonder if there is a push for VW to make a V6 diesel available. That would probably be all I could afford
Look at the rest of the world, Diesels are so popular there and have a big following here as well in the states. Lets not send our Dollars overseas in the form of oil imports, switch to diesels and save.
VW has done a great thing bringing Jettas, Bugs with diesels but not the Passat and now the new Phaeton why not?
The full-size domestic trucks here offer diesels, but trucks aren't subject to the same emmisions requirements and the available engines aren't as high-tech as the European ones either.
Assuming everything falls into place (mainly low-sulfer diesel actually being introduced and not falling victim to the trucking lobby), Ford, Jeep, VW and others will be introducing diesels into the US market.
The V10 TDI will be in the US Touareg, but it may be a few years till that happens.
I've heard "under $35K", but is this accurate?
Makes me wonder how much a base one will cost with a few niceties (leather, etc.).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tire...,
You may be trying to be realistic, but current reliable word (i.e. vwvortex) is that the V10 TDI will be introduced to the US sometime in 2004. Let's just think good thoughts and it may really happen.
Jim Healey: I've driven the diesel in several models, New Beetle most recently. But there's nothing new there to write about. It's as great as ever. If people could drive VW and Mercedes diesels for a week, I bet the U.S. wouldn't have this irrational anti-diesel attitude. In Germany, in fact, there's a segment of folks who consider the diesel the highest status of all. You get your Audi A8 or M-B S-class or BMW 7-series not with a whomping big V-8 or V-12 gas engine to show how elite you are, but with a diesel. I drove a prototype Audi A8 diesel a couple of years ago and it was dandy.
The problem is that it takes no-sulfur diesel fuel to eliminate one kind of pollutant, and there's no such animal just now. U.S. diesel has 300 to 500 ppm sulfur, going down to 30 or so under new regs, but still not far enough to clean up the exhaust as many folks think it should be. Why diesel critics aren't hammering instead on the oil companies to spend the dough to refine diesel into 0% sulfur, or to develop synthetic diesel (it can be made from cheap, plentiful, U.S.-provided natural gas), is a bit hard to figure
Ppower
tidester, host
Synthetic diesel fuels can be made from carbon containing feedstocks, such as natural gas or Tropsch in the 1920's. That process has been further developed by oil companies and is coal, in a process developed by Fischer and considered a viable option of natural gas utilization. Synthetic diesel fuels are characterized by excellent properties, such as very high cetane number and no sulfur content. They can be used in existing diesel engines without modifications or mixed with petrodiesel. Several studies found significant reductions in all regulated diesel emissions, including NOx and PM, when using synthetic fuel.
Biodiesel
Biodiesel is a renewable diesel fuel derived from a number of vegetable oils. This paper presents a general characterization of biodiesel and discusses its influence on exhaust emissions as well as the compatibility of biodiesel with materials in conventional petroleum diesel engines
from http://www.dieselnet.com/tginfo/abstracts.html & http://www.dieselnet.com/index.html
Even if the problem with the sulfer will be solved a diesel engine emits NOx and superfine particles unfiltered (only the make Peugeot has a particle filter system). In Austria more than 50% of the cars are diesels and in areas with high traffic the air quality is really bad. And now imagine that in LA...
http://www.edmunds.com/future/2004/volkswagen/touareg/100076349/preview.html?tid=edmunds.f.mmindex.makemodelindexbody..0.Volkswagen*
"Whether we get it will depend on whether VW can clean up its exhaust particulates to California's liking"
Whether we get the V10 diesel.
Ppower