Took delivery last night of a 2003 Civic Hybrid, CVT. Drove from Monrovia (Sierra Honda) to San Diego in Easter Sunday traffic. Steve Fong, at Sierra Honda is always a man of his word. Average was 49.4 mpg, according to one of the dash read-outs. As a previous Prius owner, I'd say this car is superior . . . more refined, more stable at speed, and better "real-time" mileage. Ride is very smooth, controlled, vibration and rattle free and quiet. There was never a shortage of power. I am aware of the savings . . .or lack thereof in the scheme of things. But . . . I must say - such little energy cost is very satisfying to me. Feel free to ask questions. Pete
very interesting - I am definitely planning on getting a Hybrid in 4 or 5 years - although my 1 year old Corolla has been excellent so far - please keep us updated on your likes or dislikes of your Honda Hybrid -thanks
I've seen a couple of reports on the Acura/Honda DNX. I must admit the numbers are very impressive. But this brings up another issue. The mileage rating of a particular car might not correspond too well with what is achieved in the real world. While it doesn't surprise me to hear that owners of a Civic hybrid are obtaining excellent mileage you must take into consideration that these are people that are concerned with efficiency and their driving habits will reflect this. On the other hand people that are interested in the DNX would probably exhibit very different driving habits.
Just because a car has 2x as much power available to it does not mean that it requires 2x as much power to achieve/maintain a particular speed. The best example I can think of would be to compare the Corvette Z06 at 19/28 mpg to the Accord LX Coupe rated at 20/28 mpg. These numbers are obviously very close despite that fact that the Corvette possesses twice the hp and torque. I strongly suspect that if you asked typical drivers of these two cars their actual mileage would differ greatly.
Living in LA smog, my girlfriend and I are naturally concerned about the environment and we couldn't wait for the Civic Hybrid to arrive at an LA dealer's lot. We finally got the chance to test drive the 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid yesterday. We drove the automatic transmission version of the car.
The Civic Hybrid for the most part is a great car. However, the weak acceleration of the automatic version is a problem for us. I drive a standard version of a 1984 Honda Accord. In comparison, the sluggish acceleration of the Civic Hybrid was disappointing, and raised our fears of not being able to make adequate evasive maneuvers in LA traffic.
We were also disappointed by the limited and boring exterior colors available-- commuter tan, a bluish silver, and white. In Japan, the Civic Hybrid comes in many more colors. My girlfriend said she could live with the bluish silver, but I wouldn't buy the car in any of the three colors, even with better acceleration. At least the Toyota Prius comes in a dark green, and the Insight comes in bright red and dark blue.
Of minor aesthetic note, my girlfriend didn't like the blue instrument panel colors, but I liked them. However, I still think the newer VW cars have the best dash lighting scheme with that purple/blue lighting.
We decided not to buy the Civic Hybrid automatic solely because of the weak acceleration. We will wait for a standard transmission version of the car to hit the lot, so we can test drive that and see if it accelerates any better. This will also give us time to meditate on whether we can live with one of those three exterior colors.
After we left the Honda dealer, my girlfriend asked a poignant question: Is saving ten miles per gallon over a Civic EX really worth the weak acceleration, lousy exterior color selection, and two to three thousand more in sticker price?
Snaphook, Yes, driving habits will determine gas mileage, but while you might get 25 mpg on certain track day in DNX, you will end up getting 13 mpg in a Z06. And that would be the difference.
You also brought up a classic argument on how well Z06 is rated by EPA. It would not get those ratings if it were not for 1-4 skip shift, so having 2x power etc. is a no-factor, because with that setup of transmission, you are probably just using half or less of the car's power and performance potential. Push it, and you will see mileage drop drastically. With 1-4 skip shift in effect, does not drive like a 400 HP car, you have to override it to get the performance.
That said, while DNX may be rated at 40 mpg for certain situations, pushing it will probably see a big drop, but I have a feeling that it will continue to be twice as good as other cars with comparable power.
BTW, Panoz racing had developed an electric assist LeMans chassis a few years ago. I would be curious to see what its fuel consumption was compared to a non-hybrid race car. The electric motor provided 150 HP for a total of over 650 HP from the drivetrain.
Earlier post a few days ago, upon taking delivery of my '03 Civic Hybrid. Biz trip to the desert today . . . smooth as can be . . freeway speeds up to 80, without pushing it. Averaged 45.3 mpg. A/C on for most of the trip. 92 degrees today in Palm Springs. So far . . . hard to believe this car is so perfect. Exceptionally smooth and vibration free . . . Would not imagine it to be a small 4 cyl.. Had driven the Matrix . . . a much "buzzier" engine, finish not nearly as good. Color of mine is the "titanium." Not what I would go for . . . but I have quickly gotten to really like it. Rationalization? Very tired of silver. This dark beige metallic is interesting to me. My only complaint on this car so far is the four speaker sound system. Not what I'm used to. Not totally "tinny," but certainly not of high quality. Interior of car is very hushed and insulated. Again, zero rattles, zero vibration. Will update periodically. Pete
thank you very much for sharing an owners experience with the civic hybrid. i look forward to more of your posts.
If it's not too much to ask, can you share with us what you experienced as the pros and cons of the (Toyotas) THS system versus the Honda's IMA? I've always wondered which system will prove superior in the future.
According to the published numbers the Prius actually gets better city mileage than highway. I would be curious to find out from someone whether this is actually the case in the real world. And if it is then why doesn't the Civic hybrid share this trait?
marcb/snaphook the pros and cons of the (Toyotas) THS system versus the Honda's IMA? I've always wondered which system will prove superior in the future. Prius actually gets better city mileage than highway. I would be curious to find out from someone whether this is actually the case in the real world. And if it is then why doesn't the Civic hybrid share this trait? I can only speak from observation and reading that a combination of the two systems would be fantastic. THS would work well in around town and short distance driving, but long distance cruising will drain the batteries since it is the primary source of power, and there may not be enough of it after a while. The gasoline motor assists during acceleration. To recharge, the driver may have to brake frequently, just so that the batteries are recharged. Electric motor being primary driver would reduce emissions. IMA has a gasoline motor as the primary driver, so emissions and fuel efficiency over long distance is really dependent on the design of the engine. The electric motor is only to assist during acceleration and to be able to provide idle stop feature.
To the next point, Civic Hybrid is rated 48 mpg (City) and 47 mpg (highway) with CVT (but 46/51 mpg with 5-speed manual), so it does have a better city mileage (with CVT). However, the difference in the way the two systems work comes into play.
I would like to see the possibility of combining the two systems so that we can have the best of both worlds. A V6 coupled to a reasonably large electric motor, with 100% electric motor plus V4 being the primary movers, and two of the other cylinders remain off until the batteries need to be recharged and/or a power assist is needed for stronger acceleration. In this way, we could get abilities of a large V8 with fuel efficiency of a reasonably large four cylinder-hybrid engine. Just a thought.
If someone like Panoz developed a high-powered, hybrid race car that was capable of winning LeMans... not so much on sheer speed but because it didn't need to come in for fuel as much, That'd set the automotive world on it's a**.
Well, that's the thing - I don't think a hybrid really would get better MPG if you run it flat out constantly.
Your idea would work just as well if you said - instead of having a 500hp engine that gets 8MPG we're going to run a 400HP engine that gets 12MPG. In a 24 endurance race, that could be the margin of victory. You'd be slower on the track but spend less time in the pits.
P.s. Didn't Chrysler try this a few years ago with a car called the Patriot? It had a flywheel to recapture energy lost in braking. I think they gave up on the idea, but it seems to have promise if someone spent the time/money to more fully develop it.
I'd have to say that the Civic is or at least "feels" more advanced, less artificial. The Prius felt much slower and more fragile at high speeds. I am impressed with the feeling of power and rigidity of the Civic. There is a smoothness and a feeling of power and security in the Civic. Real time mileage is better BOTH on freeway and city streets in the Civic. Separately, the quality, fit, finish of the Civic are outstanding. Sorry I cannot be more objective, quantifying these "feelings" with numbers. The shear driveability of the Civic is outstanding - compared with any car in its class, regardless of the hybrid aspect. Anyone serious about either of these cars might drive both before making a decision. Pete
A hybrid, indeed any drive system which employs energy recovery and storage, is most advantageous in cyclic operation, i.e. where energy is alternately expended/recovered. The advantages of such drives disappear under sustained, steady state operation because there is no opportunity for energy recovery and the limited storage capacity is either rapidly expended, as in the case of a battery electric, or sits idle, as for a hybrid. (note that these distinctions can also apply to different operating modes of hybrids)
This is also a major ADVANTAGE of hybrid systems since it retains liquid fuel of high energy density (gasoline) as the primary energy storage medium but uses energy recovery and storage to reduce the peak requirements of the IC engine and thereby allow lower total emissions. The good news is that the steady state power required even for sustained highway operation is a minor fraction of the peak requirements for a vehicle so that the IC engine can be small, depending on the (electric) storage capacity provided. And there's the rub! In spite of intense development over decades, improvements in storage technology have been modest and the best technologies available can only provide a minor fraction of a vehicle's total energy storage requirement and even that incurs a substantial mass, volume and cost penalty.
Which is why hybrids can approach the utility of IC only vehicles while providing improvements in fuel consumption and emissions yet battery electric vehicles cannot.
The first rule of the universe is inviolate, there is NO free lunch.
Good post. Listening to some hybrid enthusiasts reminds me a little of this old Disney movie "Flubber" where a scientist invented a material that kept bouncing higher. As far as the Prius getting better city mileage than highway I think this is a little misleading. It sounds like during highway driving you are storing energy to be used later during city driving. This absolutely must come at some cost. So the city mileage, if computed accurately, should include the extra gas that was burned during highway mode. Also, if the Prius owner drove purely city mileage there would be no stored highway energy to draw upon and I suspect the city mpg would no longer be greater than the highway figure.
As far as creating a hybrid for Le Mans, I also agree that this type of driving does not take advantage of the benefits that can be derived from hybrid technology. But what about Grand Prix type driving? If somehow the mechanics involved could be made small enough to be adapted to this type vehicle I think the potential benefits would be tremendous.
I think you are correct as far as the Civic goes but I'm not sure about the Prius. How can stopping and going possibly produce better mileage than not stopping?
I understand why you think a hybrid might work better in GP racing as opposed to LM style endurance racing. Could you clarify?
They're both road racing involving alternative bursts of acceleration and braking. In that sense road racing is similar to city driving except, of course, there's no idling.
Does anyone know whether hybrid owners should practice different braking techniques? For instance, I will downshift prior to a stop letting the engine and parasitic forces bleed off a good percentage of my speed. For non hybrid cars this makes sense, save the brakes. But it seems that this practice in a hybrid would result in losing an opportunity. In order to recapture as much of your kinetic energy as possible should hybrid owners try to make more abrupt stops (within reason) using only the brakes?
The reason the Prius gets better mileage in the city (stopping/going) is because it is using the battery more so than gasoline engine - it uses more gas on the highway so the MPG is lower on the highway - at least that is my understanding...:-)
I think you're right but the question is how is the battery getting charged? There seems to be an illusion that the more you stop the farther you can go. This intuitively does not make sense. The link provided in post 73 alludes to recharging that is taking place while cruising. This must result in some additional load on the engine, ie more gas burned. Now this makes sense. And if you wanted to take it to an extreme it is quite possible that you could come up with a scheme where the car burned no gas in city driving. The resulting EPA figures would be something like infinite city/## hwy. What I'm getting at is you are essentially siphoning of gas on the highway to use in the city yet this isn't figured into the EPA stats.
With proper maintenance do modern engines really lose much compression over their lifetime? I am certainly no mechanic but it seems to me that even though people are getting more miles out of their vehicles you just don't hear that much about the need for valve/ring jobs.
"In both Insight and Prius, the battery is charged by regenerative braking, and when necessarily, directly from gasoline engine power".
So I guess if you drain your batteries, it will be recharged by the engine. Still, I would think that would not be too often. I've read an article where the Insight tester tried to do that by aggressive city driving and succeeded only to use a 3rd of the battery while still doing about 43mpg.
Where THAT would happen is in long climbs as in driving up the Rockies. With only the 1.3 litre engine left to power you up, that could be a real pain. Oh yeah, probably the Prius could also if crawled long enough in electric mode.
I guess I wasn't clear. I was referring to the energy lost to turning the Insight engine (the Civic has compression release) under compression that might otherwise be recoverable. Turning the engine under compression at higher speed (due to downshifting) would result in more unrecovered energy (losses). I was not suggesting that the engine compression diminished.
I order a Civic Hybrid in Gilroy, California several months ago. I received a call the car came in and asked the price. I was told manual MSRP was $19,900 with an additional $3,000 in dealer mark up.
Needless to say, I said, "NO Thanks>>>" I think it is just a rip off that Honda allows the dealers to charge what they wish on their high demand cars. BMWS, MBZ, & Porsche do NOT do this unfair auto practice.
Oh well, let someone else pay the extra...it would sure take a long time to recoupe the extra cost on the car -vs- gas savings.
Seems the dealers goal (not just Honda) is to separate the buyer from as much money as possible and saying its a new model in high demand is a favorite, several people on the news group rec.auto.makers.honda and yahoo-honda-hybrid have new civic hybrids and paid MSRP, walking out was the right thing to do but don't give up, oddly enough here on TH have read there is some serious price gouging going on with the new BMW mini cooper ...
BMWS, MBZ, & Porsche do NOT do this unfair auto practice. I don't think you have tried getting hands on one of the very popular models. Given a chance, it doesn't matter what dealership it is, because more often than not, the same dealership sells more than one brand of vehicles. Automakers do not control sales practices of dealerships, but you do have the option to provide a feedback to the automaker about your buying experiences. I was given a feedback form to be mailed directly to Honda for all three of my purchases.
Porsche does not add MSRP. When the popular Boxster arrived the dealers wanted to add money, but were warned if they were caught, they would not receieve any more allocation. Nor do they do it to the rare turbos.
BMW wanted as well when teh new Z3 was introduced, and again were told don't think of it.
I'm not sure why people complain so much when the dealer tries to get over MSRP. How is this any different than the buyer trying to get under MSRP? Both sides have the same motivation, $$$s.
when the manufacturer has sliced his margin to the bone, even susubsidized his prices in order to gain a foothold in an emerging market only to have the dealers exploit the small market of eager initial buyers.
But with consumers the strange and irrational beasts that they are, perhaps this will create an aura of high demand and exclusivity that may attract others?
What the dealer is exploiting is the property of supply and demand. More often than not this works in the buyers favor. For many models if the dealer won't sell you the car at close to invoice he knows you can find a dealer down the road that will. As consumers we like this kind of leverage when it works in our favor. But on those rare occasions when the dealer has the leverage, ie popular model, we cry foul. I don't think we should expect to have it both ways. If the buyer is capable of a little self discipline/patience then eventually he will get his price. If not then he should be prepared to pay for his impulsiveness.
I don't know if Porsche or MB can dictate what the dealership can charge or not, but BMW does not do it. It may be just rumors, but BMW Z8 is supposedly commanding about $10-15K above its MSRP due to its limited supply.
And I can't say about all Honda dealerships, but the one I have used over last five years and purchased three cars, has given me a feedback form from American Honda to fill out, rate the dealership experience and send it to American Honda directly. Apparently, this data is used towards their rating of dealerships and hence allocation of cars. That is probably the best any automaker can do, I doubt laws would allow automakers any control at what dealerships can do to sell their cars. And I don't think it is unlike any other product outlet. Demand is high, the sales people think they can squeeze out more from the consumer, they simply charge more. Simple economics. The manufacturer of the product is out of the scene after setting up the price. If it were not for Honda going after service quality and all, I doubt I would receive phone calls (survey) after every major service performed on my cars.
in that they will NOT be in high demand at MSRP for a significant period of time unless production is VERY small. Initially they enjoy a novelty market fueled by a few buyers that are sufficiently wealthy to ignore the economics and who have an overriding concern for the environment or to be the first kid on the block with the newest toy.
On second thought, maybe that last group deserves to be gouged.
The manufacturers have very little control over the dealers, other than to threaten their allocation of cars. The MSRP is a SUGGESTED price (the S in MSRP). It's simple supply and demand. When a "hot" new car comes out, until supply catches up with demand, the market price will often be higher than MSRP. What is "unfair" about that? It's not "unfair" to pay less than MSRP when the market price is less. Some manufacturers (like Ferrari) intentionally build less than demand so that the car has an aura of being "hot" and "in demand".
is even harder to swallow. And thats from such a big fan as I am. Whats up Honda Canada? $9,500 Canadian does not equal $4,000 premium the US pays for, and thats without price gouging yet.
I think Honda Canada misread the right price for the Civic Hybrid. Putting the price between the Insights $26,000 and the Prius $30,000 does not follow since both are special production models using light metal construction.
The Civic Hybrid to the ordinary consumer on the other hand is simply another engine choice. So the price premium should reflect that - around $6,000 max, with the sweet spot at somewhere between $4,500 to $5,500. With that, a Civic Hybrid suggested retail price should be around $25,000 but never above $26,000. Because that bumps into the more "exotic" Insight's price range.
With a price like that, a lot more Canadians will be giving the Hybrid serious consideration.
Has anyone seen the new ad for the Civic Hybrid? A someone saw it Monday night (not sure what channel). He said it featured a guy walking around the car holding an extension cord in his hand looking very puzzled. I'm disappointed that I couldn't find it on the net anywhere to check it out. Sure hope Honda sinks more money into promoting the Civic hybrid than they did with the Insight.
Honda's hybrid is, for the most part, an image car. IMO, they have no desire to sell many more than the planned 2,000 units per month. A good percentage of these sales represent what would have been conventional Civic sales. And since the profit margin is non-existent on the hybrid why cannibalize on your other products. I believe that what ads you do see for the hybrid will be more of a promotion of Honda as company concerned with efficiency than a serious attempt to sell more hybrids.
A recent review in USA Today was less than glowing for the Civic hybrid. What I found interesting is their claim that the achieved mileage was less than EPA estimates and that this is typical of hybrid ratings.
I've heard hybrids usually get better lifetime MPG than the EPA ratings once broken in and the driver(s) learn to make the most of regenerative braking etc http://www.channel1.com/users/graham/MyToyotaPrius/PriusFrames.htm Agree with the USA Today article about not eye-poping MPG heck my plain ole year 2000 gas Civic routinely gets 40 MPG.
There does seem to be some learning involved in order to drive a hybrid to its full efficiency potential. Perhaps the reviewer for USA Today was not incorporating these techniques. As far as technical advances, I believe the idea of regenerative braking is a keeper.
The hybrid costs $21,010 with CVT. A loaded automatic EX costs $18,520 MSRP. That's $2,490. That's 1844 gallons of gas at $1.35. The hybrid gets about 17mpg better than the EX
To break even, you have to drive the hybrid over 161000 miles.
That's not even including the cost of replacing the battery sometime around 100,000 miles. I can't see the economic justification for the hybrid yet. Maybe if gas were $3 or $4 dollars a gallon, but with gas at $1.35 it makes no sense to me.
Considering the true cost of gasoline http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm a hybrid is a deal from the get go but if someone is worried about the break even point a hybrid is not a good choice, heck anything new is not good instead get a lightly used two year old car and save the bucks. I haven't heard of replacing the battery sometime around 100,000 miles (the entire battery pack or just any weak cells ?) Ford http://www.hybridford.com FAQs expects the batteries to last the "life of the vehicle" - Matt do you suppose 100 K is considered the life of the vehicle or are they just hoping ? Toyota & Honda have similar claims for their battery packs and associated electronics.
The point is, there is no compelling economic reason for me to spend $2,490 extra for the Hybrid. I'll take an EX instead. $2,490 buys A LOT of gas, and the EX is a nicer car anyway.
Also, the $2500 difference is assuming paying full MSRP for both the EX and the Hybrid. In actuality, right now the "real world" price premium is almost $4000 - the TMV price of the EX is slightly over $17k, the TMV price of the Hybrid is around $21k.
Doesn't jibe to me. Maybe the $5.xx/gallon cost. But the $15.xx seems excessive. I figure most families spend about $100/month on gas. Probably more, but go with me here. $15/gallon is 10 times what we think we are paying. That means $900/month extra. That is $10,800/year. Sorry, but NFW. That is more than most families pay in income taxes per year.
Typical socialist propaganda that assumes people can't do math.
Comments
Just because a car has 2x as much power available to it does not mean that it requires 2x as much power to achieve/maintain a particular speed. The best example I can think of would be to compare the Corvette Z06 at 19/28 mpg to the Accord LX Coupe rated at 20/28 mpg. These numbers are obviously very close despite that fact that the Corvette possesses twice the hp and torque. I strongly suspect that if you asked typical drivers of these two cars their actual mileage would differ greatly.
The Civic Hybrid for the most part is a great car. However, the weak acceleration of the automatic version is a problem for us. I drive a standard version of a 1984 Honda Accord. In comparison, the sluggish acceleration of the Civic Hybrid was disappointing, and raised our fears of not being able to make adequate evasive maneuvers in LA traffic.
We were also disappointed by the limited and boring exterior colors available-- commuter tan, a bluish silver, and white. In Japan, the Civic Hybrid comes in many more colors. My girlfriend said she could live with the bluish silver, but I wouldn't buy the car in any of the three colors, even with better acceleration. At least the Toyota Prius comes in a dark green, and the Insight comes in bright red and dark blue.
Of minor aesthetic note, my girlfriend didn't like the blue instrument panel colors, but I liked them. However, I still think the newer VW cars have the best dash lighting scheme with that purple/blue lighting.
We decided not to buy the Civic Hybrid automatic solely because of the weak acceleration. We will wait for a standard transmission version of the car to hit the lot, so we can test drive that and see if it accelerates any better. This will also give us time to meditate on whether we can live with one of those three exterior colors.
After we left the Honda dealer, my girlfriend asked a poignant question: Is saving ten miles per gallon over a Civic EX really worth the weak acceleration, lousy exterior color selection, and two to three thousand more in sticker price?
Chris Thatcher
Yes, driving habits will determine gas mileage, but while you might get 25 mpg on certain track day in DNX, you will end up getting 13 mpg in a Z06. And that would be the difference.
You also brought up a classic argument on how well Z06 is rated by EPA. It would not get those ratings if it were not for 1-4 skip shift, so having 2x power etc. is a no-factor, because with that setup of transmission, you are probably just using half or less of the car's power and performance potential. Push it, and you will see mileage drop drastically. With 1-4 skip shift in effect, does not drive like a 400 HP car, you have to override it to get the performance.
That said, while DNX may be rated at 40 mpg for certain situations, pushing it will probably see a big drop, but I have a feeling that it will continue to be twice as good as other cars with comparable power.
BTW, Panoz racing had developed an electric assist LeMans chassis a few years ago. I would be curious to see what its fuel consumption was compared to a non-hybrid race car. The electric motor provided 150 HP for a total of over 650 HP from the drivetrain.
If it's not too much to ask, can you share with us what you experienced as the pros and cons of the (Toyotas) THS system versus the Honda's IMA? I've always wondered which system will prove superior in the future.
the pros and cons of the (Toyotas) THS system versus the Honda's IMA? I've always wondered which system will prove superior in the future.
Prius actually gets better city mileage than highway. I would be curious to find out from someone whether this is actually the case in the real world. And if it is then why doesn't the Civic hybrid share this trait?
I can only speak from observation and reading that a combination of the two systems would be fantastic.
THS would work well in around town and short distance driving, but long distance cruising will drain the batteries since it is the primary source of power, and there may not be enough of it after a while. The gasoline motor assists during acceleration. To recharge, the driver may have to brake frequently, just so that the batteries are recharged. Electric motor being primary driver would reduce emissions.
IMA has a gasoline motor as the primary driver, so emissions and fuel efficiency over long distance is really dependent on the design of the engine. The electric motor is only to assist during acceleration and to be able to provide idle stop feature.
To the next point, Civic Hybrid is rated 48 mpg (City) and 47 mpg (highway) with CVT (but 46/51 mpg with 5-speed manual), so it does have a better city mileage (with CVT). However, the difference in the way the two systems work comes into play.
I would like to see the possibility of combining the two systems so that we can have the best of both worlds. A V6 coupled to a reasonably large electric motor, with 100% electric motor plus V4 being the primary movers, and two of the other cylinders remain off until the batteries need to be recharged and/or a power assist is needed for stronger acceleration. In this way, we could get abilities of a large V8 with fuel efficiency of a reasonably large four cylinder-hybrid engine. Just a thought.
hybrid race car that was capable of winning LeMans...
not so much on sheer speed but because it didn't need to come in for fuel as much, That'd set the automotive world on it's a**.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Your idea would work just as well if you said - instead of having a 500hp engine that gets 8MPG we're going to run a 400HP engine that gets 12MPG. In a 24 endurance race, that could be the margin of victory. You'd be slower on the track but spend less time in the pits.
P.s. Didn't Chrysler try this a few years ago with a car called the Patriot? It had a flywheel to recapture energy lost in braking. I think they gave up on the idea, but it seems to have promise if someone spent the time/money to more fully develop it.
This is also a major ADVANTAGE of hybrid systems since it retains liquid fuel of high energy density (gasoline) as the primary energy storage medium but uses energy recovery and storage to reduce the peak requirements of the IC engine and thereby allow lower total emissions. The good news is that the steady state power required even for sustained highway operation is a minor fraction of the peak requirements for a vehicle so that the IC engine can be small, depending on the (electric) storage capacity provided. And there's the rub! In spite of intense development over decades, improvements in storage technology have been modest and the best technologies available can only provide a minor fraction of a vehicle's total energy storage requirement and even that incurs a substantial mass, volume and cost penalty.
Which is why hybrids can approach the utility of IC only vehicles while providing improvements in fuel consumption and emissions yet battery electric vehicles cannot.
The first rule of the universe is inviolate, there is NO free lunch.
As far as creating a hybrid for Le Mans, I also agree that this type of driving does not take advantage of the benefits that can be derived from hybrid technology. But what about Grand Prix type driving? If somehow the mechanics involved could be made small enough to be adapted to this type vehicle I think the potential benefits would be tremendous.
They're both road racing involving alternative bursts of acceleration and braking. In that sense
road racing is similar to city driving except, of course, there's no idling.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
btw, this is also a very good resource site to answer a lot of our questions.
"In both Insight and Prius, the battery is charged by regenerative braking, and when necessarily, directly from gasoline engine power".
So I guess if you drain your batteries, it will be recharged by the engine. Still, I would think that would not be too often. I've read an article where the Insight tester tried to do that by aggressive city driving and succeeded only to use a 3rd of the battery while still doing about 43mpg.
Where THAT would happen is in long climbs as in driving up the Rockies. With only the 1.3 litre engine left to power you up, that could be a real pain. Oh yeah, probably the Prius could also if crawled long enough in electric mode.
I order a Civic Hybrid in Gilroy, California several months ago. I received a call the car came in and asked the price. I was told manual MSRP was $19,900 with an additional $3,000 in dealer mark up.
Needless to say, I said, "NO Thanks>>>" I think it is just a rip off that Honda allows the dealers to charge what they wish on their high demand cars. BMWS, MBZ, & Porsche do NOT do this unfair auto practice.
Oh well, let someone else pay the extra...it would sure take a long time to recoupe the extra cost on the car -vs- gas savings.
Thanks...What are the going prices???
I don't think you have tried getting hands on one of the very popular models. Given a chance, it doesn't matter what dealership it is, because more often than not, the same dealership sells more than one brand of vehicles. Automakers do not control sales practices of dealerships, but you do have the option to provide a feedback to the automaker about your buying experiences. I was given a feedback form to be mailed directly to Honda for all three of my purchases.
BMW wanted as well when teh new Z3 was introduced, and again were told don't think of it.
MBZ does NOT either...FYI...
Mabye this is only the policy in Nor California.
JEFF
But with consumers the strange and irrational beasts that they are, perhaps this will create an aura of high demand and exclusivity that may attract others?
And I can't say about all Honda dealerships, but the one I have used over last five years and purchased three cars, has given me a feedback form from American Honda to fill out, rate the dealership experience and send it to American Honda directly. Apparently, this data is used towards their rating of dealerships and hence allocation of cars. That is probably the best any automaker can do, I doubt laws would allow automakers any control at what dealerships can do to sell their cars. And I don't think it is unlike any other product outlet. Demand is high, the sales people think they can squeeze out more from the consumer, they simply charge more. Simple economics. The manufacturer of the product is out of the scene after setting up the price.
If it were not for Honda going after service quality and all, I doubt I would receive phone calls (survey) after every major service performed on my cars.
On second thought, maybe that last group deserves to be gouged.
Nevermind.
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I think Honda Canada misread the right price for the Civic Hybrid. Putting the price between the Insights $26,000 and the Prius $30,000 does not follow since both are special production models using light metal construction.
The Civic Hybrid to the ordinary consumer on the other hand is simply another engine choice. So the price premium should reflect that - around $6,000 max, with the sweet spot at somewhere between $4,500 to $5,500. With that, a Civic Hybrid suggested retail price should be around $25,000 but never above $26,000. Because that bumps into the more "exotic" Insight's price range.
With a price like that, a lot more Canadians will be giving the Hybrid serious consideration.
A recent review in USA Today was less than glowing for the Civic hybrid. What I found interesting is their claim that the achieved mileage was less than EPA estimates and that this is typical of hybrid ratings.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/columns/healey/2002-04-05-civic.htm
To break even, you have to drive the hybrid over 161000 miles.
That's not even including the cost of replacing the battery sometime around 100,000 miles. I can't see the economic justification for the hybrid yet. Maybe if gas were $3 or $4 dollars a gallon, but with gas at $1.35 it makes no sense to me.
Typical socialist propaganda that assumes people can't do math.