By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
Just because a car has 2x as much power available to it does not mean that it requires 2x as much power to achieve/maintain a particular speed. The best example I can think of would be to compare the Corvette Z06 at 19/28 mpg to the Accord LX Coupe rated at 20/28 mpg. These numbers are obviously very close despite that fact that the Corvette possesses twice the hp and torque. I strongly suspect that if you asked typical drivers of these two cars their actual mileage would differ greatly.
The Civic Hybrid for the most part is a great car. However, the weak acceleration of the automatic version is a problem for us. I drive a standard version of a 1984 Honda Accord. In comparison, the sluggish acceleration of the Civic Hybrid was disappointing, and raised our fears of not being able to make adequate evasive maneuvers in LA traffic.
We were also disappointed by the limited and boring exterior colors available-- commuter tan, a bluish silver, and white. In Japan, the Civic Hybrid comes in many more colors. My girlfriend said she could live with the bluish silver, but I wouldn't buy the car in any of the three colors, even with better acceleration. At least the Toyota Prius comes in a dark green, and the Insight comes in bright red and dark blue.
Of minor aesthetic note, my girlfriend didn't like the blue instrument panel colors, but I liked them. However, I still think the newer VW cars have the best dash lighting scheme with that purple/blue lighting.
We decided not to buy the Civic Hybrid automatic solely because of the weak acceleration. We will wait for a standard transmission version of the car to hit the lot, so we can test drive that and see if it accelerates any better. This will also give us time to meditate on whether we can live with one of those three exterior colors.
After we left the Honda dealer, my girlfriend asked a poignant question: Is saving ten miles per gallon over a Civic EX really worth the weak acceleration, lousy exterior color selection, and two to three thousand more in sticker price?
Chris Thatcher
Yes, driving habits will determine gas mileage, but while you might get 25 mpg on certain track day in DNX, you will end up getting 13 mpg in a Z06. And that would be the difference.
You also brought up a classic argument on how well Z06 is rated by EPA. It would not get those ratings if it were not for 1-4 skip shift, so having 2x power etc. is a no-factor, because with that setup of transmission, you are probably just using half or less of the car's power and performance potential. Push it, and you will see mileage drop drastically. With 1-4 skip shift in effect, does not drive like a 400 HP car, you have to override it to get the performance.
That said, while DNX may be rated at 40 mpg for certain situations, pushing it will probably see a big drop, but I have a feeling that it will continue to be twice as good as other cars with comparable power.
BTW, Panoz racing had developed an electric assist LeMans chassis a few years ago. I would be curious to see what its fuel consumption was compared to a non-hybrid race car. The electric motor provided 150 HP for a total of over 650 HP from the drivetrain.
If it's not too much to ask, can you share with us what you experienced as the pros and cons of the (Toyotas) THS system versus the Honda's IMA? I've always wondered which system will prove superior in the future.
the pros and cons of the (Toyotas) THS system versus the Honda's IMA? I've always wondered which system will prove superior in the future.
Prius actually gets better city mileage than highway. I would be curious to find out from someone whether this is actually the case in the real world. And if it is then why doesn't the Civic hybrid share this trait?
I can only speak from observation and reading that a combination of the two systems would be fantastic.
THS would work well in around town and short distance driving, but long distance cruising will drain the batteries since it is the primary source of power, and there may not be enough of it after a while. The gasoline motor assists during acceleration. To recharge, the driver may have to brake frequently, just so that the batteries are recharged. Electric motor being primary driver would reduce emissions.
IMA has a gasoline motor as the primary driver, so emissions and fuel efficiency over long distance is really dependent on the design of the engine. The electric motor is only to assist during acceleration and to be able to provide idle stop feature.
To the next point, Civic Hybrid is rated 48 mpg (City) and 47 mpg (highway) with CVT (but 46/51 mpg with 5-speed manual), so it does have a better city mileage (with CVT). However, the difference in the way the two systems work comes into play.
I would like to see the possibility of combining the two systems so that we can have the best of both worlds. A V6 coupled to a reasonably large electric motor, with 100% electric motor plus V4 being the primary movers, and two of the other cylinders remain off until the batteries need to be recharged and/or a power assist is needed for stronger acceleration. In this way, we could get abilities of a large V8 with fuel efficiency of a reasonably large four cylinder-hybrid engine. Just a thought.
hybrid race car that was capable of winning LeMans...
not so much on sheer speed but because it didn't need to come in for fuel as much, That'd set the automotive world on it's a**.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Your idea would work just as well if you said - instead of having a 500hp engine that gets 8MPG we're going to run a 400HP engine that gets 12MPG. In a 24 endurance race, that could be the margin of victory. You'd be slower on the track but spend less time in the pits.
P.s. Didn't Chrysler try this a few years ago with a car called the Patriot? It had a flywheel to recapture energy lost in braking. I think they gave up on the idea, but it seems to have promise if someone spent the time/money to more fully develop it.
This is also a major ADVANTAGE of hybrid systems since it retains liquid fuel of high energy density (gasoline) as the primary energy storage medium but uses energy recovery and storage to reduce the peak requirements of the IC engine and thereby allow lower total emissions. The good news is that the steady state power required even for sustained highway operation is a minor fraction of the peak requirements for a vehicle so that the IC engine can be small, depending on the (electric) storage capacity provided. And there's the rub! In spite of intense development over decades, improvements in storage technology have been modest and the best technologies available can only provide a minor fraction of a vehicle's total energy storage requirement and even that incurs a substantial mass, volume and cost penalty.
Which is why hybrids can approach the utility of IC only vehicles while providing improvements in fuel consumption and emissions yet battery electric vehicles cannot.
The first rule of the universe is inviolate, there is NO free lunch.
As far as creating a hybrid for Le Mans, I also agree that this type of driving does not take advantage of the benefits that can be derived from hybrid technology. But what about Grand Prix type driving? If somehow the mechanics involved could be made small enough to be adapted to this type vehicle I think the potential benefits would be tremendous.
They're both road racing involving alternative bursts of acceleration and braking. In that sense
road racing is similar to city driving except, of course, there's no idling.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
btw, this is also a very good resource site to answer a lot of our questions.
"In both Insight and Prius, the battery is charged by regenerative braking, and when necessarily, directly from gasoline engine power".
So I guess if you drain your batteries, it will be recharged by the engine. Still, I would think that would not be too often. I've read an article where the Insight tester tried to do that by aggressive city driving and succeeded only to use a 3rd of the battery while still doing about 43mpg.
Where THAT would happen is in long climbs as in driving up the Rockies. With only the 1.3 litre engine left to power you up, that could be a real pain. Oh yeah, probably the Prius could also if crawled long enough in electric mode.
I order a Civic Hybrid in Gilroy, California several months ago. I received a call the car came in and asked the price. I was told manual MSRP was $19,900 with an additional $3,000 in dealer mark up.
Needless to say, I said, "NO Thanks>>>" I think it is just a rip off that Honda allows the dealers to charge what they wish on their high demand cars. BMWS, MBZ, & Porsche do NOT do this unfair auto practice.
Oh well, let someone else pay the extra...it would sure take a long time to recoupe the extra cost on the car -vs- gas savings.
Thanks...What are the going prices???
I don't think you have tried getting hands on one of the very popular models. Given a chance, it doesn't matter what dealership it is, because more often than not, the same dealership sells more than one brand of vehicles. Automakers do not control sales practices of dealerships, but you do have the option to provide a feedback to the automaker about your buying experiences. I was given a feedback form to be mailed directly to Honda for all three of my purchases.
BMW wanted as well when teh new Z3 was introduced, and again were told don't think of it.
MBZ does NOT either...FYI...
Mabye this is only the policy in Nor California.
JEFF
But with consumers the strange and irrational beasts that they are, perhaps this will create an aura of high demand and exclusivity that may attract others?
And I can't say about all Honda dealerships, but the one I have used over last five years and purchased three cars, has given me a feedback form from American Honda to fill out, rate the dealership experience and send it to American Honda directly. Apparently, this data is used towards their rating of dealerships and hence allocation of cars. That is probably the best any automaker can do, I doubt laws would allow automakers any control at what dealerships can do to sell their cars. And I don't think it is unlike any other product outlet. Demand is high, the sales people think they can squeeze out more from the consumer, they simply charge more. Simple economics. The manufacturer of the product is out of the scene after setting up the price.
If it were not for Honda going after service quality and all, I doubt I would receive phone calls (survey) after every major service performed on my cars.
On second thought, maybe that last group deserves to be gouged.
Nevermind.
Just a reminder that our Town Hall chat happens on Wednesday (5-7pm Pacific/8-10 pm Eastern). This week, our topic will be:
Automotive shopping - the online experience
If you've bought a vehicle online or are thinking about it, stop into the chat and join in on the discussion!
http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/newsviews.html
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
I think Honda Canada misread the right price for the Civic Hybrid. Putting the price between the Insights $26,000 and the Prius $30,000 does not follow since both are special production models using light metal construction.
The Civic Hybrid to the ordinary consumer on the other hand is simply another engine choice. So the price premium should reflect that - around $6,000 max, with the sweet spot at somewhere between $4,500 to $5,500. With that, a Civic Hybrid suggested retail price should be around $25,000 but never above $26,000. Because that bumps into the more "exotic" Insight's price range.
With a price like that, a lot more Canadians will be giving the Hybrid serious consideration.
A recent review in USA Today was less than glowing for the Civic hybrid. What I found interesting is their claim that the achieved mileage was less than EPA estimates and that this is typical of hybrid ratings.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/columns/healey/2002-04-05-civic.htm
To break even, you have to drive the hybrid over 161000 miles.
That's not even including the cost of replacing the battery sometime around 100,000 miles. I can't see the economic justification for the hybrid yet. Maybe if gas were $3 or $4 dollars a gallon, but with gas at $1.35 it makes no sense to me.
Typical socialist propaganda that assumes people can't do math.