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Yes it would because with VDIM off the car won't be constantly engaging the brake by itself thus the time thru slalom will decrease. The IS350's chassis actually has a lot of potential it's just that intrusive VDIM somehow limited it's ultimate capability.
You'll know what I meant if you have drove an IS350 with and without VDIM back to back...But again, why am I wasting my time replying your post since nothing is as good as the "ultimate driving machine". (By the way, is that Porsche or Ferrari?) :confuse:
YMMV with the whole discussion. Saying that I only read stuff that is favorable to the 3, while at the same time touting some user survey in some magazine where Lexus came out on top and citing a few posts as evidence of BMWs decline is doing what you claim I am doing.
Uh no. The IS350 dips, dives and rolls without VDIM ever engaging. In a normal 45 mph corner at 60 the understeer and body-roll made me feel like I was piloting a barge.
You'll know what I meant if you have drove an IS350 with and without VDIM back to back...But again, why am I wasting my time replying your post since nothing is as good as the "ultimate driving machine".
In this segment nothing compares. doesn't mean the BMW is great; the competition just isn't that great.
me: That is true - none of the cars in this segment are that great at performance. The performance differences between these vehicles are very small. Yet if you look at most of these posts, its about someone going "oooh a magazine got a 66.0mph slalom beating your car which was only 65mph ..." It's like listening to people argue over who has the better power-hitting on their company softball team.
For instance, I put very little stock in reliablity when leasing. It's a lease, so the reliability is not a paramount concern. If I were buying, I'd think long and hard before ever buying a German car. Or American.
The quality of a navi system means nothing to me. BMW's unit is garbage and Honda as the most amazing Navi i've seen in a car. I wouldn't pay more than $300 for navi in a car though. So for me, it's not a deal breaker as my navi is a PDA with tomtom.
As far as performance, to me there are clear runaways (06 G35 - haven't had the pleasure of an 07 and BMW) and ones I will run away from (IS350, C, TL, CTS). Some I'm prone to shrugging over - A4, A3.
I accept there is only one right answer for each driver: the car he wants to drive.
And do it without peeing off every driver around you for being wild?
95% or more of the owners of these cars don't drive like you. Or even want to.
Dont worry owning a German car is no big deal . These past two decades I've owned many German cars for many years beyond warranty coverage. No major reliability issues so far. And if there were issues then I would not of owned German cars in the first place because I hate wasting time at dealerships and paying BIG $$$ to repair crappy quality cars.
I'm not sure how blueguydotcom drives, but from my own experience you don't need to be a Nascar-Bubba jackass to appreciate great driving dynamics. I enjoyed driving my former Honda S2000 more at 35 mph on winding roads through Rock Creek Park than I would have running an SL65 up to 190 mph at Bonneville Salt Flats.
BMW's engineering approach has always been "make the chassis faster than the engine". Lexus would do well to consider that worth emulating in the "sport" sedan category. The only advantage the IS might have over the 3 requires you to break the speed limits or drive away from stoplights like a jackass.
So, in my opinion, your comment shouldn't be directed at blueguydotcom, but probably those that are touting the "performance" of the IS.
</I.
Amen. You can safely probe a car's abilities on a variety of roads. Doing 140 is a bore (in europe). Hitting the apex of a tight corner just right...that's nirvana.
The G is RWD and redesigned for 07- better interior IMHO than previous model.
The TL is FWD and undergoing a MMC for 07.
Good luck w/ whatever decision you make
Vehicle type: front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 5-passenger, 4-door sedan
Price as tested: $44,445 (base price: $39,395)
Engine type: twin-turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 24-valve inline-6, aluminum block and head, direct fuel injection
Displacement: 182 cu in, 2979cc
Power (SAE net): 300 bhp @ 5800 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 300 lb-ft @ 1400 rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual
Wheelbase: 108.7 in
Length/width/height: 178.2/71.5/55.9 in
Curb weight: 3616 lb
Zero to 60 mph: 4.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 11.8 sec
Zero to 140 mph: 26.1 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 5.6 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.5 sec @ 106 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 145 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 157 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.89 g
EPA fuel economy, city/highway: 19/28 mpg (C/D est
Impressive!!
Neways, those are very impressive numbers. I'd like to know what the new G35 does ? I haven't followed this forum at all. Does anyone have performance stats on the TL Type-S yet ?
Thanx,
Rocky
And if those epa numbers are accurate, I could reasonably expect a real-world mileag of 26mpg. Just makes it all that much more appealing.
Now if I could only afford the darned thing.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
But it won't change the fact the CTS is a dog, and once you turn the wheel the car is in trouble.
rockylee, "2007 3-Series" #30, 1 Aug 2006 9:29 pm
Would it be safe to say that you simply like trolling for a reaction? :P
Best Regards,
Shipo
Vehicle type: front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 5-passenger, 4-door sedan
Price as tested: $36,000 (base price: $32,500) (both are estimated)
Engine type: V-6, aluminum block and heads
Displacement: 213 cu in, 3498cc
Power (SAE net): 306 bhp @ 6800 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 268 lb-ft @ 5200 rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual
Wheelbase: 112.2 in
Length/width/height: 187.0/69.8/57.2 in
Curb weight: 3583 lb
Zero to 60 mph: 5.2 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 13.1 sec
Zero to 140 mph: 30.2 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 5.8 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.9 sec@ 103 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 158 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 160 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.87 g
EPA fuel economy, city/highway: 18/25 mpg (C/D est
As one can see, not as impressive as the 335i but is almost 9K cheaper :surprise: . If money isn't an issue I'll take the 335i, however I think the G35 now is the new best bang for the buck (that's if the C&D's estimated price holds true) in this segment.
I'm figuring 37.8k for a car decked out like my current e90. I can live with that. 38k for sub 5 second 0-60 and because it's a turbo you're one ECU reflash away from 400/400. Yummy.
How I got 9K? I used "as tested" price instead of base price ($44445 - $36000 = $8445). The reason? One can probably never find a "based" 335i, G35 or IS350 on the lot anyway.
Regardless, the base of a 335i is 39k. We don't know the base of the G35 but even going off 32k estimates that's 7k.
This whole "find on lot" thing is silly. You can order a G35 and 335i. Not so Lexus. If you want a G35 base, you can get one. Want a 335i base, it's as easy as making a phone call.
44k base for the 335i means the car has a lot of extra, worthless junk on it like active steering or navigation.
I still can't afford it, though.
maybe they'll do lease deals in a couple of years when my current car's lease is nearing expiration.
The 335 does come with alot of standard stuff. I'm usually into options, but there was VERY little I saw worth adding. I only went with the floormats, Sirius radio, and comfort access (that last one is obviously unnecessary, so its there only to satisfy the gadgetry quota for me). It already has power memory seats, moonroof, steering wheel controls, nice stereo, etc. So, in other words, I think comparing a base 335i is quite fair. Meanwhile, the G35 does not come with a moonroof standard. Hmmmm....
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
"Really? The IS was specifically designed by Lexus to battle the 3er in the "enthusiast" segment and it failed."
YES, REALLY!! And Lexus didn't fail! I'm the living proof, I opted for the IS, like so many out there who test driven both cars. So YES, BMW has lost potential customers, including former BMW owners like myself!"
____________
I'm also proof that Lexus didn't fail. I drove the 335i and the IS350 back-to-back (well, within about 2 hours of each other), and I really liked them both. I liked the way the 335i drove, but it didn't compare to the Lexus as far as an everyday "total package" car is concerned. Little things like ventilated seats, decent cup holders, a 6 disk CD changer, etc. weigh easily in the Lexus' favor. Sure, if my drives down the interstate required constantly weaving in and out of cones, the 335 sure would be nice. But for just heading straight, with a few turns here and there, I don't see a reason to go with the 3-series. The amenities in the Lexus, not to mention saving a notable amount of money, made the decision an easy one for me. Again, I liked both cars, but folks that go overboard in saying "the 3-series is perfect" and "the Lexus IS is crap" are potentially misleading lots of potential buyers out there. I'm trying to set the record straight. The decision is a personal one.
Having already had one perfect BMW I'm looking forward to my next. Even if I had a road with no turns, I would pick the 335i over the IS350.
If it's not already obvious, I'm not an "enthusiast." I just want -- and I think I got -- the best overall car for me. The Lexus IS. Glad you like your beamer -- they're definitely great cars.
"Little things like ventilated seats, decent cup holders, a 6 disk CD changer, etc. weigh easily in the Lexus' favor."
I fully respect anyone's decision to buy whatever car they want for whatever reason they want. But may I respectfully suggest that cup holders and ventilated seats do not make up for a slushbox transmission and numb steering for a driving ENTHUSIAST.
For those that switched from BMW to Lexus and are happy, good for you. Really. But don't think that somehow you speak for serious driving enthusiasts. Whatever your initial reasons might have been for buying a BMW, they obviously wouldn't have been the same as mine. Or perhaps your preferences changed.
I hardly speak for all driving "enthusiasts", but if a ventilated seat becomes more important to me than a crisp shifting short throw six speed or a tight handling chassis, please feel free to kick me in my ventilated [non-permissible content removed]. :surprise:
My comments on the ventilated seats, cup holders, 6-disk changer, etc. obviously had nothing to do with how the car drives. It was directed to other factors -- important factors for many people -- that people like you choose to ignore. You don't care about a decent cup holder or comfortable seats in hot weather -- fine. But it's part of the total car.
As far as the "enthusiast" point goes, all I'm saying is that I don't need perfection in the transmission and overall driving. If you think the Lexus has a slushbox transmission, I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion. Not as good as the BMW -- yes -- but slushbox -- come on, it's a very good transmission.
It seems most non BMW owners in this forum can talk about attributes without deriding others. It also seems that any opinion that does not believe a marketing campaign of "The Ultimate Driving Machine" will be derided within a short period.
Here is hoping that this thread really becomes constructive.
I drive over 25,000 miles a year in South Florida where a stick would be murder. The Lexus is better everyday and provides a lot of sportiness when needed. The BMW would be better for the minority sporting moments, but worse for everyday. I use the Nav unit several times a week, so other items factor into the equation besides handling.
PS - Those that want to say I won't appreciate sportiness - I say otherwise. I have owned a Cobra, 300ZX, RX-7, Audi A4 among others.
I agree with the third pedal comments (/flame suit on). However, my BMW has seen every friggin' condition in the NE, without snow tires, while delivering flawless performance and zero headaches. Lexus and BMW sell different proportions of luxury and sport. I wouldn't say the Lexus is a better every day car, because I can appreciate the crisp handling and utterly precise control over every inch of the road. Ventilated seats, ML stereo. Who needs an ML stereo when listening to the sound of the smooth exhaust?
For me that makes a better car, which I measure other cars against. Lexus and BMW, vanilla and chocolate. You choose.
Bottom line, if you enjoy driving and fortunate enough to be able to tell the difference in road feel, driving dynamics and handling, there is no way you getting a Lexus. If luxury is more important why not get an ES, IS is sporty but even less then FWD TL???
Rocky
Rocky
I wasn't trying to troll for a reaction. It might seem that way but it wasn't my intention. I was under the impression BMW, was going to offer a performance value not a over hyped 330i. :sick:
Either way you look at it, the 335i is WAY cheaper than $53,000.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Is that a proclamation or a wish? From reading these forums do you think horsepower is the be all and end all of a car? I guess the answer is yes, if you are the underdog.
You aren't suggesting facts like the actual price of a 335i get in the way of Rocky's opinions are you?
Come on now, how do you think he'll be able to continue to TROLL if he can't make absurd inaccurate statements and insane opinions about the attributes and qualities of cars that he has never driven? :surprise:
Just for the fun of it, I might drive up to a Caddy dealer and ask them to test drive all of these BMW beaters that Rocky is promoting. But I better make sure I park my 911 or TL in a safe place with the doors locked.
$53,000? Maybe Rocky moved to Canada?
However, I have pointed this out before and I'll do it again: It's rather interesting to me that the so-call enthusiasts are so focused on the driving dynamics factor which they have completely ignored (or chosen to) other important criteria like driving comfort, gadgets, interior quality, etc... I understand that we are talking about performance sedans here but at the same time these are designed to be everyday drivers. Majority of the buyers choose them because they are fun to drive and practical enough to use to commute everyday to work or to school. As a daily driver (or a commuter) shouldn't we at least take some other factors into consideration besides handling?
On the other hand, I'll totally agree with the so-call enthusiasts if we are talking about the performance sports cars like habitat1's 911S. For the cars at that level, people rarely use them as daily drivers (although some do). They are more like a weekend fun car so people can take it out for a spin or take it to the track. It'll be totally ridiculous if we are taking the ventilated seats and cup-holders into the consideration if we are talking about the 911 here. As matter of fact I think people whom buy an automatic 911 (or even Boxster and Cayman) are nuts. However, the last time I checked, we are talking about the "entry-level Luxury Performance Sedans" here instead of "Very expensive ultra sports cars".
I know this post is not going to change anybody's opinion (and yes, everyone's entitled to have their own) especially the hard-core enthusiasts like Blueguydotcom. However, I hope people can understand through this post that handling and driving dynamics is not the only factor to many buyers (to some of you maybe, but you are definitely not the majority) and to many others, maybe the ventilated seats are equally as important as BMW's awesome handling.
Th beat the 330 on what? Handling? Did Lexus ever say that? If they did please post the exact quote or attach the link. If not then please stop this non-sense accusition like "Lexus lied, Lexus lie". However, to many of us whom choose the IS350 over 330i we truly think that the IS did beat the 330i in overall package. For the record: I think the 335i MIGHT BE a better package but with a very hefty price tag.
why not get an ES
FWD, soft suspension (yes, softer-than-IS suspension), too expensive, ugly styling, too big...
IS is sporty but even less then FWD TL???
We'll see how the IS fair next time with the VDIM off. By the way, blueguy, please spare me with your VDIM doesn't matter comment will ya :P.
I re-read your orignianl post and probably did take your statement out of context - sorry. But I stand by the point that I may have not appropriately communicated:
It is a subjective decision for everyone here to chose the car that is right for them. And the Lexus IS350, G35, 335i, TL, and others are all legitimate choices, each with their own attributes. That's not in dispute as far as I'm concerned.
But, IMO, the attributes that make up what I would refer to as overall driving dynamics and performance have at least some significant element of objectiveness. That fact that you would chose an IS with an automatic or I would chose a FWD TL 6-speed, or someone else would switch from a BMW to a Lexus means that we have made our own subjective choice on the attributes that are important to each of us. It does not mean that the BMW is still not, based upon my test drives, the heads and shoulders leader in driving dynamics.
So, with all due respect to those who may forego rowing your own gears or, as I did, want a little more of a family sized sedan than the 3 series offered in 2004, that's our collective perogative. But as far as driving dynamics goes, I for one am not so insecure as to give full credit to the BMW 335i where is is due. And if Lexus (or Acura) really wants to compete with BMW in that arena, it isn't going to be with a slushbox only transmission choice and numb steering (Lexus) or a FWD platform (Acura), or an overweight AWD platform (Audi) or cupholders or ventilated seats or...
However, let me raise this one issue...
Since the 3er is the benchmark in this segment do everyone else (that's Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, MB and Acura) need to play BMW's game (driving dynamics)? What if one day say the IS or G or even TL surpass 3er's overall sales number does it still make the 3er the benchmark of the segment? I am not going to say that it's going to happen but what if it does? I really don't think it's necessary for the competitors to become BMW-copycats in order to beat BMW. I'll actually give them more respect if they can beat BMW while keep their own identity.
They did and that's the rub with many of us. While I don't have time to look it up right now, if you look over in the IS discussion here at Edmunds, you'll find a post that includes a quote from a Lexus executive from maybe thirteen or fourteen months back that says something like, "The new IS will outperform the 3-Series in every category."
A number of folks who've spent lots of time in the seat of a BMW saw that quote as extremely promising, me included. At the time I reasoned that even if I didn't end up with a new IS, some good competition certainly wasn't going to be a bad thing. As more details on the new car worked their way into the public domain it became more and more apparent that the Gen2 IS wasn't going to be able to fulfill its promise. Once the car was released it proved to be a cruel joke for those of us who would love to at least have a true alternative to the venerable 3-Series.
Is the IS a bad car? No. That having been said, given its relatively mushy handling, slushy transmission, unavailability of a true manual for the IS350, vague steering and cramped rear quarters, I found myself walking away wondering how the aforementioned executive could even remotely believe the IS was superior to the 3-Series in all areas.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Just to make the record straight, here's what EXACTLY what the Lexus GM Bob Carter said in Edmunds live chat back in September 29, 2005:
msm_IS asks: Do you think you will beat BMW's sales of the 3-series?
Bob Carter: It's not our goal to compare ourselves with any other manufacturer. I am confident that we have a fantastic vehicle coming to market. Most luxury manufacturers address this segment through vehicles that offer a compromise on either performance or luxury. Lexus has taken a different approach. We are addressing this segment by offering two completely different models. The IS models offer incredible performance with all the luxury you would expect in a Lexus. Our ES 330 emphasizes the comfort and refined feel which Lexus is known for, and comes in a sophisticated and stylish exterior.
coopnet asks: How does Lexus feel the IS250/IS350 compares to the 325i/330i?
Bob Carter: The IS is a much better car!!
He said the IS is a much better car. He did NOT said, and I quote from ship: "The new IS will outperform the 3-Series in every category".
Here's the link: Bob Carter Live Chat
Best Regards,
Shipo
No, they don't need to play BMW's game, but then they might want to tone down the "sports" sedan marketing theme as though they are going after the serious driving enthusiast.
FWIW, I am similarly critical of Acura with the RL. All this "super-handling" and "300 horsepower" advertising showing the car winding through the Bavarian Alps. Well, it's NOT super handling compared to the 5-series and, as it turns out, it didn't even have 300 hp and felt downright sluggish compared to my TL 6-speed. Not to mention no manual transmission option. It seems like Acura's marketing folks wanted to have us believe the RL was a driving enthusiast's competitor to the 550i, but they forgot to tell their engineering department to deliver on the goods.
Let me give you a positive example of a car that DID deliver on the goods - the $33,000 Honda S2000. They, with limited self promoting fanfare, took on the best from BMW ($40k Z3), Mercedes ($45k SLK) and Porsche ($50k Boxster) and, IMO, beat them. As a result, they didn't have to sing their own praises, every major car magazine and hordes of serious driving enthusiasts did it for them.
________________________________
"What if one day say the IS or G or even TL surpass 3er's overall sales number does it still make the 3er the benchmark of the segment? I am not going to say that it's going to happen but what if it does? I really don't think it's necessary for the competitors to become BMW-copycats in order to beat BMW. I'll actually give them more respect if they can beat BMW while keep their own identity."
Sorry, but I think we have a serious disagreement on the definition of "beat". A Honda Accord selling 400,000 cars a year doesn't mean it "beats" the 335i. And the limited production Honda S2000, selling only 5,000 units a year didn't "lose" to the Z3 or Boxster. Toll Brothers sells 10,000 luxury homes a year, but they don't "beat" Frank Lloyd Wright's Fallingwater or Robie House in terms of architectural character.
There is no doubt that there are a lot more "semi", "non" and "sort of" enthusiasts buying so-called sports sedans than there are serious driving enthusiasts. And there are even more "get me from A to B" drivers perfectly happy with a Camry, Accord or, e-gads, a GM. But, IMO, if Lexus, Acura, Audi or Infiniti insist on calling their vehicles "sports sedans", they cannot claim any victory until over BMW until serious driving enthusiasts can drive one in a sports sedan-ish sort of way and get out thinking that it performs better. If they want to call them "entry level luxury sedans", then perhaps they have changed the metric in their favor. For me, it's as simple as that.
P.S. And just to clarify, my definition of performance is not one dimensional like 0-60 times. It is the entire "sporting" driving experience. Which for a semi-enthusiast, might allow for a paddle shifting slushbox. Not for me (and I accept I am flirting with subjectivity, now).
Horrible example, you can't compare the Accord to 335i since they are in different class. Also, is S2000 the segment leader in general consensus? I don't think so, it's just a really good cheaper alternative to the Boxster and Z4 just like the G35 is to the 3er.
I have no objection at all to crown the 3-series the performance leader in the class even if one day it does lose the sales crown. However, in this segment it's not all about performance (to the auto mags maybe). To me the reason I spend ~35K to get a sedan in this segment is because I want a car that's well-balanced between luxury and performance as well as being somewhat practical as an everyday driver and cars in this class deliver that. Some are more on performance (G and 3er) and some are more on luxury (C-class). FOR ME I think the IS strikes the perfect balance of the 2 and that's why now it's my daily driver. Otherwise, like you said if performance and fun to drive is all I want I will be probably better off to get a S2000 instead.
Habitat1, you are a very lucky man to have a 911S as your fun car but some of us (actually many of us) don't have that luxury. So for me I need a car that can give me a little giddy up when needed but at the same time offers me comfort during my daily commute. I think by now everybody knows that I am by no means an enthusiast (probably not even a semi) so sports sedan to me means RWD and better handling than a midsize sedan. I can understand that the IS did not live up to many enthusiasts' expectation but it is no way a FAILURE or CRAP like some here have stated.