Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

rockylee

That is pretty cool.

Rocky

circlew

Here is an interesting combo:

The idea that General Motors Corp. could buy Chrysler Group has many heads shaking in bemusement, but some who watch the U.S. auto industry say the concept might actually gain traction.

Muhahahaha!!

Regards,
OW

rockylee

Yeah, that would be pretty darn cool

Rocky

circlew

Chrysler will unveil the production version of the 2009 Dodge Challenger 356 days from today (Feb 15). It will be unveiled at the Chicago Auto Show in February 2008, the company said today.

Start Planning...5'er, 3'er or CHALLENGER! How cars have shrunk over the years.



Regards,
OW

blueguydotcom

Today my fiancee expressed an interest in checking out possible cars to replace her now gone 2001 S80. She said she wanted compact, somewhat luxurious and powerful. Obviously she's driven my 06 330i. She finds it fun but not to her liking (I really wouldn't want two of the same car in the family anyway).

So we stopped by VW and she drove a GTI 4 door. Not a ELLPS, i know. But it leads into her reactions to the next two cars:

Acura TSX
Acura TL

We got out of the TSX and I already knew she didn't dig it. When pressed by the car guy she matter-of-factly said, "That car is soooooo slow."

The dealer was actually pretty smart as he didn't flinch but said, "Well try this TL Type S. It's got some power." She agreed; I knew what her reaction would be but figured it would be amusing anyway. We got onto the road and he asked her, "So how does it feel?"

"Heavy and huge," came her immediate response. She's never heard me mention the TL ever.

We returned to the lot and he suggested an Accord V6. She has already been in them an answered instantly: no, old lady car.

Sigh, I think she may be driving her backup car for sometime as we've ruled out all SUVs, the Acura/Honda lineup, BMW and MB. Honestly, I didn't think she'd find the TSX that slow but after driving the GTI, she couldn't understand why anyone would opt for the far less responsive engine in the TSX.

Next stop Audi.

nyccarguy

Audi? In CA, do they stock Quattro cars or are most of them FWD?

circlew

Blue,

What about the G?

Regards,
OW

blueguydotcom

G35? Neither of us liked the 07 when we drove it at Thanksgiving. Extremely cramped interior and car felt heavy and disconnected from the road. I prefer the last gen car more.

blueguydotcom

They stock both but we'd look at the A3 (essentially FWD only as the 3.2 is way overpriced); it's far more space efficient than the cramped A4 and reasonably priced for what it is.

Hard to find compact entry lux cars nowadays. Even the 3 series is a midsize now.

scottm123

G35? Neither of us liked the 07 when we drove it at Thanksgiving. Extremely cramped interior and car felt heavy and disconnected from the road. I prefer the last gen car more.

I enjoy seeing everyone else's opinion of these cars, and how they differ from person to person.

I've driven the TL and agree with your conclusions.
I drove the G35x two days ago and I had a completely different opinion from yours.

I feel the cars handles incredibly well, and rivals (comes very close) to the feel of a 3-series.
There was also no front end dive when slamming on the brakes, and no heavy plowing in corners like the TL.

Good luck finding a final decision.

plekto

You could always go with a roadster, you know... :P

The sad fast is that anything FWD will feel sluggish and dead compared to a RWD setup, because the steering is by definition going to have torque and weight on it bogging it down.

And 3500+lbs kills anything right there as well - it starts to feel like a GM or Ford in that it's good in a straight line, but lacks the tossability of say, an old BMW 2002 which is probably the best example of a sports sedan ever made - pure and simple and a blast to drive.

But two cars she should try are:

The older IS300. I has a great balance of power versus weight, compared to the too-slow IS250 and the silly priced IS350. It's the ONLY Japanese car I ever drove that felt like a European one. But then they de-powered the base model and made both cars so much more heavy... Ack.

The other is a RX-8. With leather, it's not too bad as far as feeling a bit luxurious. But it's light, quick, and fast. It feels a lot like well... like you took a G35 and dropped 500 pounds of dead-weight. Because the RX-8 weighs 3000lbs, yeah, it kind of IS exactly like that.

Plus, if she likes stick, it's even better.

IMO, the RX-8 handles better than even a 3 series. Herehsy I know, but the thing is that it's roughly 300lbs lighter and HP isn't everything. I'd take one over the 328i anyday.
(the 335i is definately better, but dang what a pricetag) The IS350, at nearly 3600lbs is... well, yeah... It bludgeons its way through corners like a 5 series or Mercedes. Not bad, mind you, but not light, either.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/bmw/3series/100814243/specs.html
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/mazda/rx8/100793743/specs.html
Do a side by side comparison(make two thin and tall windows)

- Mazda is a bit shorter, less wide, weighs 300lbs less, plus a few inches shorter wheelbase. bit over a 1 ft smaller turning circle. Same HP(230 vs 232). Of note is how the rear seats are very close in size to each other. If BMW thinks you can actually fit a 5th person in the center rear seat...

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/infiniti/g35/100822701/specs.html
Yes, it is almost 500 lbs heavier. Weight is poison in curves. Considering that an Altima is 3000lbs, I just don't know why these cars are so darn heavy.

circlew

Better yet, she could go with an EVO, which has "tossability", weighs in under 3,300 lbs. and is a good all weather car.

Regards,
OW

blueguydotcom

That's why the choices are limited. TSX is small and I'd hoped she'd like it. No such luck. A3 is one of the few small near lux cars with power, nice interior space and decent roadfeel/handling.

The RX-8 has great handling/good power but it's got no interior space - especially for a baby seat. Same interior problems with the IS. Evo is an economy car and feels it. Same with the WRX.

Really if the A3 gets shot down she's gotta re-examine her priorities. She's going to have to give up something: power, handling, space, small size, luxury. hopefulyl she'll pick luxury as then that opens the Mazda3 to us.

FWIW, those RDXs look pretty nice,

plekto

The RX-8 doesn't have a center rear position, but it's plenty big enough for a baby seat in the rear(two, same as the 3 series). The interior space is virtually identical to the 3 series.

I'd let her drive it. But, if she needs more space than a 3 series, she's looking at midsize cars. There's no way she's coming out ahead in that case. (ie - might as well try to fit a child seat in a smaller car than suffer with a boat)

There is another option, though...
The IS300 Sportcross. This is a wagon version of the IS, and as such, has more rear room(though it's exactly the same, it FEELS larger - like the Volvo 240s did, for instance). It also could be had with stickshift, making it a solid performer.

Me? Unless you have a baby now, the reality is that a booster seat or even most full-size baby seats will fit in the rear of a RX-8. Shoot, I fit a full-size one in a Focus(rear pasenger seat), though there was only about 1 inch if clearance.

joe131

3 series mid-sized? Compared to what?
It is not very big inside, especially the back. Are you referring to EPA volume ratings?
EPA says 335i is a compact with 93/12 pass/cargo space in cu.ft.

joe131

Focus (94/15) is roomier than the sub-compact RX-8 (89/8).
(EPA pass/cargo cu.ft.)

kdshapiro

"FWIW, those RDXs look pretty nice,"

Yeah, but you better hook your bank account directly into Exxon. Drive as intended and you're looking at 11-12 mpg.

blueguydotcom

The RX-8 doesn't have a center rear position, but it's plenty big enough for a baby seat in the rear(two, same as the 3 series). The interior space is virtually identical to the 3 series.

You can sit a carseat dead center in an e46 and easily in an e90. I've done it with my e46 and e90 and my bro-in-law's been doing it for 4 years with his e46. Plenty of room in an e46 and expansive in the massive e90. The e90's freaking huge inside and out.


There is another option, though...
The IS300 Sportcross.

1. Used - will only by new unless it's wholly unavoidable.
2. Far more cramped than an e46 and e90 - I couldn't sit in the back of an IS300.
3. Drives like a slothful wagon - zero power.

I've been in the RX-8 and it's cramped in the front and impossible for me to get in back (flipside I've ridden comfortably in the back of the e46/e90). Getting a car seat in the back of one would be evil and turn the car into a 3 passenger.

KD, I know the RDX's engine sucks gas. Nice small package though. If she were serious about SUVs we'd be looking X3 via ED; maybe Mazda but that's where the options end.

plekto

3 series mid-sized? Compared to what?
It is not very big inside, especially the back. Are you referring to EPA volume ratings?
EPA says 335i is a compact with 93/12 pass/cargo space in cu.ft.
****
My point was that it apears as if he wants a car for his wife that doesn't exist. She wants midsize space and subcompact handling. Not going to happen without a huge gimmie somewhere, and the child seat seems like an obvious first place to start. Afterall, the difference between the rear passenger and rear center isn't that much in terms of safety, and there are dozens of makes of child seats.

And, yes, the RX-8 can fit a child seat in the rear. The seats are very low. I felt as comportable in the rear as most compact cars in the front. Think of it as a car with 4 bucket seats.

As for the space, it's like the Porsche 928. 2+2, so the rear takes a hit on paper because there's no center at all - it's all one big driveshaft tunnel and center console(which is awesome to use as a passenger, btw). I'd venture it loses about 15-20 cubic ft right there. But since most small cars don't USE that center rear area in actual use(child seat aside, which makes the rear good for NOBODY ELSE), it's like you took the 15 cubic ft of the least useable space in the car and got rid of it.

When I get in the rear seat of a car, I sit behind the passenger if possible, THEN on the driver's side. Middle is only if I have no choice at all.

It's small, but look at what his wife wants. She wants a 3 series but with a Minivan's cargo space by the sound of it.

If she goes small, the truth is that the rear will BE small - but since only small kids will go back there, it's not a huge deal, is it? I'd concentrate on trying any and all cars first - actually drive them all, then worry about if a seat can be wedged in the rear or not.

circlew

Looks like she needs to settle for the 335. Why didn't she like it again?

Regards,
OW

plekto

I will add another one to the list - she might like it, even though you'll probably hate it.(grin)

If you can wait 6-7 months, the new CTS looks to be a wonderful choice. But I suspect she wants something in the next few weeks, right?

blueguydotcom

I didn't mean to get you guys on a quest. It was more just to pass an amusing anecdote about her reaction to the TSX/TL.

I assume we'll have to settle for some aspect she wants but can't have. FWIW, I'm hoping she likes the A3 as she liked most everything about the GTI but found it a bit rough.

And no to American cars. No way in hades. Japanese or German.

plekto

I just poked my head in and sat in the new Mini. It's lots better than the old one and the rear seats have integrated latches for a child seat. It's actually quite comfortable and roomy for its size.

It should hold its valie quite well and it is quick and agile enough to probably make her happy. It also has that "female" thing about it - small and cute and just bound to push all of her buttons.

The new engine on the S gets 28/36mpg! That's not the base, mind you, so the base should be 32/40 or close to it - a vastly better *European* engine as opposed to the original junk from Brazil.

Go check it out - it's a bit wider, a bit better inside, and still super-fun to drive.

ontop

The Mini has a maxi price.

And the RX8 has a mini interior. Talk about feeling like being in a straightjacket. Wow. I got all squirrely just looking in that back seat.

Pletko - you must be one of our smaller brethren cause you seem to like the little packages. I can't fit in a G35 and almost fit in a 330 (left knee hits the arm rest on the door). The Lexus was too much money and I didn't even look at a Volvo or a CTS.

I went with a TL. Bunches of room. Good price. They may soon go to RWD on the TL. Could be spongeworthier then.

blueguydotcom

I thought the new mini wasn't out until March?!

She loves minis and it's one she wants to check out. I figured I'd indulge her but I imagine it'll be a bit tough for a family.

FWIW, minis are quite cheap if configured decently. I've put together a mini cooper S tonight and it came out to around 27k. Seems fine to me. Highest resale value around.

plekto

I'm 5'8" and yes, the RX is a bit cramped, like the Scion TC and many others are.

Look, I really and I mean *REALLY* wanted to hate the new Mini. And yet... everything was a tiny bit better. Nothing you could put your finger on until you did a comparison(they had a 2006 and a 2007 next to each other).

Better seats. Nice, straight-up, tall roofline. Zero headspace issues. Gobs of flat glass. It feels very spacious inside - like cars fom the 50s did.(as opposed to the high-beltline angled glass mess we see too often)

Better dash layout. Better bonnnet, battery up in the engine, so there's enough depth now to put upright grocery bags in the rear, better cupholders... it all felt like they took the mini and refined it ever so slightly. And darn it, I liked it more, despite not wanting to. It made the old one look like it was an economy car and this had the extra bit of polish to it that made you think it really was a BMW.

It's a bit wider in the back seat as well(and fantastic headrests). The S just came out this week. The Base is coming in 2-3 weeks and is the car to get, though(IMO), since optioned out you can get one for under $20K, and the base engine is TONS better than the old model's.

Also, a basic Mini with only a few options to keep the price down is something like $1000 a year or less in depreciation.

For a Family, it would work for a few years - there are two latches in the rear(seat clips into them evidently - it's a system more often used in Europe) BMW has custom-fitted child seats, IIRC, so fitting to children in the rear should be simple.

edit:
new engine(looking in the booklet I got)
172hp/177lb-ft torque
0-60 6.7 secs
15.1 second quarter mile
Top speed 139 mph.

This is the standard S - without the "works" package.

The base, though, does 0-60 in 8.5 - much better than the old automatic. 32/40mpg!

frisconick

And no to American cars. No way in hades. Japanese or German.

Agreed, 100%

allargon

What about British, French or Italian?

Or, are we strictly talking the German and Japanese makes without soul? :P

frisconick

I saw an Alpha Romeo that looked just like a TL. No kidding.

plekto

Europe=Europe. All is good. Note - this doesn't mean a Skoda from someplace that's technically part of the EU.

BMW name, U.K> designed, with a engine made in France. No, really - it's not 1960 anymore! France can make good small cars(which we don't get here - sigh)

allargon

Top Gear seems to think otherwise. They (sort of) proved that guys on foot could beat a Peugeot!

Back to ELLPS, so Swedish (Sweden is definitely in Europe!) ELLPS's, the Saab 9-3 and the Volvo S40, still trump (exterior styling, handling, total package) the Cadillac CTS in your mind? :surprise:

frisconick

I hate to bring this up, but Cadillac has a horrible reliablity record.

plekto

As opposed to the bastion of all things that are good and reliable, BMW?

Oh wait - you must have been talking about Mercedes instead... :P

allargon

The CTS? It's not as good as the Japanese ELLPS, but it pretty much trumps the Euros. If we're just talking brands, then drag Mercedes, Saab, BMW, Audi and Jaguar into the mud before Cadillac. (Infiniti as a brand isn't much better. But the previous generation G35 showed itself to be somewhat more reliable than the current generation CTS.)

Are you in California by any chance? I can understand. People in California would rather pay more to be seen in a Toyota Matrix than a Pontiac Vibe even though they're the same car made at the same California factory. However, the bit about American being less reliable than European makes no sense to me.

circlew

CTS is about Average in the Automotive Performance and Layout study from JDP. 328i is among the best but design problems are apparent in '07. IQS favors cts.

I'd call it a draw. I would agree the Euros need to pay more attention to Quality, highlighted by track record of Merc and Jag. But US is no panacea and the service, well...

But when it comes to driving experience, US has no soul in the luxo/performance arena, save the C6, IMHO.

I did not even think about driving any US brand in '06 when I made my choice.

Regards,
OW

blueguydotcom

When I help friends and family look for cars they're always very clear: no american makes. I've never heard someone I'm helping say, "I won't even look at a Japanese car." Strange but true.

frisconick

Yes I am in California, but that's not the point. When I am in the market for a car, I ask my brother's advice, who is a mechanic. I asked him about chrysler and caddies and he no way. My brother is also in Calfornia and drives a big ford truck.

plekto

I'd call it a draw. I would agree the Euros need to pay more attention to Quality, highlighted by track record of Merc and Jag. But US is no panacea and the service, well...

But a "draw" at 10-20K less than a 5 series? That's suddenly a huge advantage tha tcan't be overlooked.

rockylee

Well they have ranked among the top for what the last 10 years or so ? :surprise:

Rocky

circlew

Blue, here is a quick overview to ASQ perceived nameplate quality (Q2, 2006)...you can use it for you shopping pleasure.

Top Quality

Lexus
Toyota
BMW
Buick
Cadillac
Honda
Hyundai

Middle of the Pack

Lincoln-Mercury
GMC
Pontiac
Chrysler/Plymouth
Mercedes-Benz
Saturn
Nissan

Everyone Else

Jeep
Chevrolet
Mazda
Dodge
Ford
Kia
Volkswagen

Regards,
OW

kdshapiro

We can debate quality like we know what every consumer wants, but in it's ELLLPS and mid-LPS segments BMW for being the smallest of the small, sells the most vehicles. So my feeling is, the quality debate is moot, since sales have spoken.

nkeen

But when it comes to driving experience, US has no soul in the luxo/performance arena, save the C6, IMHO.

I think every car has a personality which you either like or don't. When I first came to the US I worked an airport valet parking job, which allowed me to briefly sample many cars. I was always OK with the basic honesty of US products, but from the first time I sat in a Japanese car it was dislike, from the "ting tong" of the warning chimes, to the overly light feel of the controls to the smell of the interior. That said, I bought an Acura TL last time around, and regretted that choice, although on paper it was a great car and the automotive press largely raved about it. The lesson is, buy what you want, not what someone else says you should want. Speaking as a free-marketer, it is unfortunate that so many people just refuse to consider the products of my adopted country (I mean US owned companies) when so many jobs ride on those decisions. Pure automotive snobbery.

I think the real problem for the US industry is that car purchase decisions are so wrapped up in self-image -- how much does this thing add to my status among peers. Unfortunately, to purchase an American car simply isn't cool to many.

circlew

nkeen,

This BMW is my first "snob" car that is not US made. I previously only bought ONLY US except an '82 Tercel which was a really good cheap car and worth every penny. This was in hope that someday the arrogance would give way to great cars again.

My problem with the US manufacturers since about 1969 is that their "snobbery" to build cars which only what the corporate decided the US customers wanted.

So, the Japanese destroyed this bad judgment call. Also during this time, the Unions built up the jobs to stratospheric levels of costs in the quest to "protect" these jobs. House of cards.

Now, finally, the result will be a more competitive, free-market environment to which you speak.

You are right...the boring US cars simply are not cool anymore.



Regards,
OW

kdshapiro

"This BMW is my first "snob" car that is not US made."

I am always careful to label (or not label) a car a "snob" car. What may be a "snob" appeal in my mind, is just pedestrian at best to someone else.

I'd buy an American car in a heartbeat if I felt it was competitive in the world marketplace for what I wanted. Until then I will look offshore for my vehicles.

nkeen

Agree with some of what you say, but I just don't find much of the stuff from the Orient very appealing. I'd contrast the inherent balance, and "rightness", of the BMW with the crass, video game styling of the higher end Japanese stuff, all garish flash (let's just start with the lighting assemblies) with a bit of BMW derivation thrown in. Add in driving dynamics that with some exceptions (Subaru) just aren't right. I wouldn't argue with the honest goodness of the Honda Accord (either the US or the Euro/Japanese versions).

I couldn't even read the kph indications on the speedo of my TL because of the deep blue color used. Wouldn't see that kind of thing in a BMW -- just simple, elegant, clear, clean instrumentation.

Love that Z/28. Had a ride in a 69 302 with a short rear end (4.11?) once. That car flew.

gooddeal2

Blue, here is a quick overview to ASQ perceived nameplate quality (Q2, 2006)...you can use it for you shopping pleasure.

Top Quality
...
Hyundai


Hyundai...TOP QUALITY over Nissan? Wow, I learn something new everyday. :confuse:

plekto

So where was Porsche in that list, btw?

ie - please post the entire list if you're going to and not just the parts you want.

blueguydotcom

We drove the 07 Mini cooper S and Cooper. We both really enjoyed the Cooper S. I decided I could stomach transporting a kid in the back if it's what she really wanted.

I thought it was settled but we stopped at Audi anyway - mostly because we'd already made the appointment. The A4 got shot down as too big. The A3 2.0T DSG with premium package...she fell in love. I've never seen her so happy as when she hit the gas on that car during a spirited drive through the twisties. On the freeway she was giddy - she'd tap the paddle downa gear, hit the gas and coo about the seats. The small exterior size, the ample interior space, the power, the soft leather-covered power seats...it all combined as if into the perfect car for her.

So we are getting a kind of ELLP Car/Wagon. Not an ELLPS. She wants to wait a bit before jumping in, though she told me she'd much prefer getting a used 06 and saving a bit off MSRP. Fine with me.

gooddeal2

For more detail look at circlew's post a couple above me.

I don't really care about Porsche cuz I never imagine myself spending that much on a car unless it's lottery money.

joe131

http://www.asq.org/quality-report/reports/20060815-table2.html

Differential Between Perceived Overall Quality
and Customer Expectations

Nameplate


Mercedes-Benz
-6

Volkswagen
-6

BMW
-2

Cadillac
-2

Lexus
-2

Chrysler/Plymouth
-1

Lincoln/Mercury
-1

Ford
-1

Nissan
0

Jeep
0

Mazda
+1

Toyota
+1

Chevrolet
+1

Buick
+1

GMC
+1

Honda
+2

Dodge
+2

Pontiac
+2

Kia
+2

Saturn
+3

Hyundai
+5