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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,077
    Now if they could figure out how to get 250hp out of the engine

    and mileage better than the mid-size SUVs i referred to earlier. ;b

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    ...handling alone does not performance make.

    Yeah but it's thee most important part of performance in my book. I will sacrifice a LOT in power to get a car that is superior when doing the twist.
  • They'd be MUCH faster if they were 500 lbs lighter. And handle far better.

    As for safer and roomier...uh I don't care. My car could have a 1 star crash rating. Really makes no difference in my selection. And as for roomier - my e46 was too big. The e90 is so massive I really can't understand how BMW can declare this Buick-like boat an entry level sedan. The thing needs flashing back up lights and a dumptruck beeper when in reverse.
  • The IS-F will be an AMG from toyota. It's not gonna be an RS or an M car. Not when you consider toyota's current offering. You don't take a lamb and turn it into a lion.
  • jblaze13jblaze13 Posts: 152
    They were comparing both previous generation vehicles to each other. Maybe its silly to you but the 325 was underpowered and still cost as much. That was the point.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,077
    i'm well aware of the point of the article. But I still don't see how comparing to the base engine makes the G a "3-series beater." Your post was quite misleading. 325-beater, yes, 3-series beater, no.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,077
    that's fine. And I'm with you, to an extent. I'd still prefer not to be beat out by mom's grocery getter from a stoplight, though. I don't travel on very many twisty canyon roads ... come to think of it, i travel on NO twisty canyon roads.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • joe131joe131 Posts: 996
    I was only meaning the IS 250 and the Saab from the above list.
    The IS 350 does not come with a manual transmission. I am most interested in a sports/luxury sedan that does.
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 996
    Is the luxury that is missing in the Speed6 subjective only? Or are there some luxury items you think should be available that are not?
    Seems pretty luxurious to me and is certainly a good performer. And a bargain.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    We've been over this before many times, you can do a search on the previous posts. Other models also mentioned are Volvo S60, VW Passat and Subaru Legacy. I could have left out a few.
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 996
    I'm not wondering about them, only the MazdaSpeed 6 and what you think its luxury deficiencies are. Subjective I'm guessing, so never mind.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,077
    volvo was agreed to as being included, AFAIK. But, yeah, i remember discussion about the Legacy and also the 300 most recently, i believe.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,077
    we've had discussions about setting objective parameters. just read back and your questions will probably be answered.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "I do typically stick to my purchases longer but the TL in my mind it is a dog, a dog I no longer want."

    Do you test drive cars, or just pop in to the dealer and say "I'll take one of those?".

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but when I was sedna shopping in early 2004, I narrowed my choice down to a 330i ZHP, TL and G35, all in 6-speed form. I really wanted to like the G35, since I was coming out of a 1995 Nissan Maxima SE that gave me 150k trouble free miles. The G35 was a dissapointment. Power was comparable to the TL, but the engine was rougher under hard acceleration. Even more so than my 9 year old Maxima. I also thought I'd prefer the G35's RWD setup, but it didn't handle appreciably better than the TL, it's steering was more vague. The gershift was the biggest dissapointement - well behind the snick-snick shifting of both the 330i and TL 6-speeds.

    I understand the new G35 has a lot of cosmetic improvemetns. I hope they also addressed my mechanical concerns. It wasn't a bad car - not a "dog" - but just very rough around the edges.

    P.S. I hope you aren't going to tell me that any of the cars you had or are considering are automatics. If they are, you have no standing to call anything a dog. ;)
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "We mention it because in a straightline the 335i takes the IS350."

    That's exactly my point. When the IS350 first came out it set the "benchmark" for hp in this class and "driving enthusiasts" heckled Lexus fans about straightline performance.

    Since then, BMW (& Infiniti) caught on that- hey- maybe we will lose market share since not every 3 series buyer/lessee tracks their car or drives like an 18 y.o.
    Now, BMW is back on top leading the hp war (IMHO) and 3er fans are drooling over themselves not only because of the bragging rights but also because it is a viable alternative to the current M3.

    That said, I'm a TL owner with hopes that Acura will become competitive in the market again and offer something with equivalent hp and torque.

    Not everyone buys these cars for what you and other "enthusiasts" buy/lease them for. You get to vote with your $$ and I'll vote with mine.
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 996
    Well, that sure cleared things up for me. I just re-read every post mentioning the MazdaSpeed 6 in the ELLPS board.

    Here's what I've learned:
    Many people in here do not even know what a Speed 6 is and how it differs from a regular Mazda 6.
    There are no stated objective deficiencies that would keep the Speed 6 from having a well deserved spot in ELLPS.
    The ELLPS objective parameters do not have much to do with luxury or performance or MSRP, but apparently how the car sounds and feels to a particular poster.
    The (objective?) parameters have everything to do with the brand name of the vehicle and whether that brand name is normally thought of as a luxury carmaker and whether the nameplate has snob appeal.

    Yeah, I think I get it now.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,077
    you obviously didn't read (or even search for what we suggested you search for) and just feel like venting, so i'm not addressing this any more.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701

    look at post 6900. IMHO the S6 is a very capable sedan but does not belong here.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,077
    thanks for doing the legwork, ggesq.

    i'd also suggest to read a couple of the subsequent pages to that post.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • Agreed.

    Honestly, the more I drive my e90 the less likely I am to buy a 335i in 2008. The massive interior, total tonnage of the car and the cocooned/removed feeling is just too luxury/Buicky for me. I feel like I'm driving a faster, manual version of my grandfather's 1990s Park Avenue.

    My ZHP was an outlier and it's becoming clear to me the entry level lux world has grown a tad too big and marshmallowy for my tastes/driving style/needs.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,609
    Sounds like you need an M...although the weight thing will be there, the feeling you are reminiscing on might make it for you. This will not be your grand pappy's PA.

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I think what blue need is the 1-series. Or simply just move to Europe. :P
  • robbiegrobbieg Posts: 339
    Just because a car has leather and a sunroof does not mean it is a entry level luxury performance sedan. One, the Mazdaspeed6 is not Mazda's entry level sedan, that would be the Mazda3. The luxury part comes from the prestige that is associated with the make of the car. Mazda is not a luxury car make. Lastly, the Mazdaspeed6 is clearly a performance car but since it misses out on the other two requirements it does not fit in here. With discounts, the Mazdaspeed6 is a great buy but is not similar to a 3 series or an an IS.
    2014 Highlander XLE AWD, 2009 RX 350 AWD and 2007 Odyssey EX
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 996
    I did read every post. And I do not feel like venting.
    But, I did just notice something. This thread is OLD! Started in March of 2002 I guess. Back then there was no Mazdaspeed 6. So how could it have been included in the original list of possible ELLPS cars?
    I'll assume that the list has not changed since that first post back in 2002. And, if that is the case, I understand why the MazdaSpeed 6 cannot be included since it has only been available to buyers for 3 years, and not back to March of 2002.
    However, if this discussion has evolved to include other cars also not available in March of 2002, then I cannot understand why the Speed 6 is not a contender since it objectively possesses the luxury, performance, size and MSRP to qualify as an ELLPS.
    Except for that luxury nameplate / subjective snob appeal thing, it surely should be.
    That is not necessarily a bad thing, snob appeal. So why deny it is the deciding factor?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I'll assume that the list has not changed since that first post back in 2002

    Dude, look at the list closer again this time. I see IS 250/350 included in the list and if my memory serves me right back in 2002 there are NO IS250/350s. Clearly the list is being updated constantly.

    I seriously think the "Luxury" in ELLPS means the sedan is from a luxury brand instead of how many luxury amenities the sedan offers. We've been over about which brands are considered as luxury brand before so I wouldn't repeat that again. However, Mazda in my best knowledge is not included as one.
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 996
    Oh, so to be an ELLPS, the car has to be based on the least expensive model that a particular car line sells? No one ever told me that!
    I just assumed that entry level meant the beginning ranks of the luxury performance car segment, regardless of what the cheapest car of a certain nameplate offers.
    Everyone agree with that point robbieg makes?
    And are all the other cars in the list based on the cheapest model?
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 996
    So are you saying the list of cars up near the top of the page in ELLPS has changed in this thread over the years?
    If so, that only tends to support my objections.
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 996
    Is Acura's cheapest sedan a TL? I thought they made a cheaper one in 2002. I could be wrong on that. And how about all the other cars on the list? Are they all based on the cheapest sedan offered?
    So what's the TL doing on the list of ELLPS ?
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 996
    Since the list of cars in ELLPS is obviously evolving, it seems like going over the requirements to determine worthy participants would be necessary when newer models become available.
    And how would a newer car be added to the list anyway? Does it need to be approved only by the originator of the thread? That would be cybersol, right?
    Or is this a mob-ruled democracy? We just vote on it?
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 996
    You say, "...Clearly the list is being updated constantly..."

    And my question is by whom is it being constantly updated?

    And if it is constant updating, why the reluctance to consider other cars? Or is that just an invalid perception I have?
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