Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

qbrozen

Well, the tendency to understeer is of course relative to the car. Not all do. And for those that do, a rear swaybar upgrade can take care of that, as can, to some degree, a front/rear differential in tire pressures (higher pressure in the rear will add oversteer).

The biggest advantage to AWD on the track, IMHO, is being able to get on the power much earlier and harder. Traction coming out of turns is critical, and, obviously, you get much more power down to the road with AWD.

My personal experience was with my G35x compared to all other vehicles I've autocrossed. I did not have to be at all careful with the X. Just all gas or all brakes and nothing in between. With every vehicle since, I've had to train my right foot to wait and then modulate.

sweendogy

Big announcement is here- new rdx (based on the cr-v), the Ilx (civic based) which is a fwd smaller car, and finally the nsx which will be a awd hybrid. Looks like styling on the first 2 are inline with current offerings.

nyccarguy

So than for your average non-tracking driver who enjoys on/off ramps & twisty back roads, the only advantage of AWD is the extra traction provided by the 4 driven wheels on slick surfaces?

billyperksii

The NSX is a looker-right, but three years is a long wait.
What's going on with the RL- doesnt look like Acura is shooting for 8, maybe they will mimick the NSK 6cycl hybrid.

sweendogy

Nsx does look pretty cool. I don't know anything about the RL as it wasn't mentioned in anything I read about the auto show or on the Acura website. The new entry level caddy looks promising - lighter then most packing a 300hp eng.

markcincinnati

No.

nyccarguy

Yeah, the new X5 M every 2 years is a drop in the bucket for him. His wife drives a '10 750 Li w/ X Drive. His 3rd garage is currently occupied by a Challenger SRT-8. I say currently because I think he's sold the Dodge & is one of the 1st on the list for a new M5.

nyccarguy

You are biting your tongue over there Mark.

alltorque

This is a huge topic and lots of variables so probably no simple, definitive, answer.

As a simple soul I'd try, (and probably fail), to categorize as follows :

Given that the driver is reasonably competent in all cases then RWD takes some beating on a good dry track and the car can be beautifully "balanced" into/out of corners. On the rough stuff - gravel, forest tracks, (e.g. typical WRC special stages), or very wet conditions/snow etc then AWD will have advantages simply by having drive at all four corners. Then we get into weight distribution and front engine, mid-engine, rear engine configurations. Early Porsches were pretty quick but, in the hands of the unwary the engine hanging out the back would generally try and overtake the front of the car without much warning. Of course, a world class driver in either a FWD or RWD car will outperform an idiot in an AWD car, (of similar performance).

That's the simple version - probably.

flightnurse

So they FINALLY going to make the next Gen NSX, With a V8 or V10 great, I wonder how much money they are going to lose on each one they sell?

flightnurse

Check this URL out, hopefully it explains everything.

http://www.autoworld.com/news/Audi/Quattro_system.htm

If AWD didn't have such an advantage then FIA wouldn't have banned AWD cars...

qbrozen

the only advantage of AWD is the extra traction provided by the 4 driven wheels on slick surfaces?

Well, essentially, yes. If you drive with a gentle foot and the primary drive wheels never lose traction, then the AWD would never kick in on many vehicles (those that are 100/0 split under normal conditions, that is).

qbrozen

that's all about racing, though. His question now is whether, in nonracing nonadverse conditions, AWD has any advantages. I personally can't think of any. I mean, if you NEVER get into a situation where you need the added traction, then it is just extra baggage.

Kirstie_H

(not directed toward anyone in particular...)

Let's not do this again - the FWD vs RWD vs AWD, or any combination of those. I can't remember how many times we've done it already, but more than once before. If there isn't an existing discussion, you're welcome to start one just for that conversation. I typed FWD AWD into the keyword search box, and found several.

nyccarguy

Thanks for the link. I appreciate it!

sweendogy

No v8 or v10- they are going with a 6 and a hybrid- they are also going introduce super-duper handling awd. Sdhawd which should trickel down to the RL and tl

kdshapiro

The questions are will anybody care and what will the competition be doing?

markcincinnati

As I suspected the HOST would intervene -- and rightfully so and put a screeching halt to the two driven wheels vs four driven wheels "discussion."

There are many threads, here on edmunds and hundreds (or more) all over the 'net, that have beaten this topic damn near into submission.

If you need additional information, the link provided above pertaining to quattro should be one of your first stops. Then let Google or Bing or Dogpile be your friend and search the web to your heart's content.

So yes, I am biting my tongue because the real answer to your question about AWD being just for low coefficient of friction (i.e., slick) conditions isn't a direct "yes" or "no" -- like so many things in life the truth is "it all depends."

Moreover, the RWD mavens and the AWD mavens for that matter will probably never agree even with tons of data -- because the data will undoubtedly be presented with qualifying statements. Then one of us here will latch on to a qualified statement and proclaim it as the universal truth.

Of course Audi's piece (the link referenced above) is marketing material. Yet unless they have misrepresented the facts they cite, their statements should not be dismissed just because of "your" bias for 2 wheel drive (and that means RWD, virtually all of the time.)

Ever wonder why the discussion seems to be AWD vs RWD and that there are many supporters of those two approaches who are "gunning" for a fight, er, "discussion?"

I have sometimes wondered: Why is it that there are none (or perhaps virtually none) willing to proclaim the best system is 2 driven wheels (and that those wheels should be the FRONT wheels)?

We have folks almost willing to come to fisticuffs to defend and "prove" that RWD is most righteous; likewise AWD. Where are the FWD defenders?

Me, I think all autos in the ELLPS and LPS classes should at least offer AWD and if they don't they shouldn't be in those classes, no matter how many technical do-dads can be ticked off on the option list.

My cousin just got that fancy schmanzy 2012 KIA Optima SX with everything on it -- the thing even comes with heated REAR seats (like my $53K Audi A6) -- but, I would assume the FWD and the sub $30,000 price, etc, keep it out of the ELLPS and LPS classes.

In any case, I have the 2WD vs 4WD thing out of MY system for a while at least -- and remember I said I did not want us to start down the path (the "discussion") that has been done and re-done and re-re-done so many times here at or in this very web site.

I know I can't win but I'll just end wondering why if AWD is really only for slick surfaces, that the World Motor Sport Association forbade four-wheel drive in their events as an "unfair advantage." :surprise:

sweendogy

Wow- that was powerfully written- We all can agree that Fwd stinks- Rwd is cool, awd gives a sense of security.

Drive like you live
Sween

shipo

I like some FWD cars (our new GTI is a prime example)
I like some RWD cars (my former 530i was a prime example)
I like some AWD cars (our A4 Quattro is a prime example)

I guess I'm fickle. :shades:

Kirstie_H

I just realized that we (basically) have one of each:
RWD Crossfire
AWD Pickup truck
and my (most of the time) FWD Escape (though it has the option to be AWD, as needed... but it drives like a FWD car most of the time).

nyccarguy

My apologies to all. Didn't mean to throw salt in old wounds.

qbrozen

Where are the FWD defenders?

Right here. I've defended it adamantly on numerous occassions. Guess you missed those. I don't remember which discussions. Definitely more than one.

I've defended all of them (AWD, FWD, RWD). There is no "best" answer.

Now, an ELLPS that does ANY of them with a flip of the switch... how cool would that be? :shades:

sweendogy

Crossfire wow that's a select club.

kdshapiro

It's not a sense of security it's valuable traction when you need it most. The last few winters in the east coast have proven it. Which is why my ellps has awd.

tlong

...mean that now we will have arguments about whether the ILX belongs in this forum? (rather than the TSX)? :P

rayainsw

As it pertains to the new 328i....
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2012/01/il-track-tested-bmw-528i-six-vs- -four.html

alltorque

Crossfire wow that's a select club.

Small is not the same as select.

flightnurse

Its only a select club is it was a SRT6.

flightnurse

This is no surprise, the only way BMW would be allowed to place a 4 cyl back in to an American BMW is if it was a screamer, and it is. Too bad the cars that they tested did not have the sport package, which I think would make a big difference.

Kirstie_H

Ha! Mock all you want. That vehicle's presence in the garage pre-dates my presence.

sweendogy

Agreed te new 4 is better then the old 6 in every way. Sport package would help for sure- to bad they don't make a manual for the 5 series anymore as well.

rayainsw

'2012 535i Sedan Standard Features

Performance and efficiency
•
3.0-liter, dual overhead cam (DOHC), 24-valve, 300-hp inline 6-cylinder engine with TwinPower Turbo technology, piezo direct fuel injection, Valvetronic, and Double-VANOS steplessly variable valve timing
•
Direct ignition system with knock control
•
Electronically controlled engine cooling (map cooling)
•
Auto Start-Stop function
•
Brake Energy Regeneration system
•
6-speed manual transmission'

And the new M5....

markcincinnati

I have lamented the lack of manual transmissions in these ELLPS and LPS cars for years -- my last manual was virtually the last manual that I could get in a car that I really wanted, and that was in a 2003 Audi allroad with the 2.7T engine.

Then I bought a 2005 Audi A6 with the 6-speed tiptronic, followed by a 2009 A4 2.0T Prestige with the sport package (also with the 6-speed tip). We have an '11 Infiniti with the 7-speed auto trans and I have test driven several 2012's that have 8-speeds (all German cars, of course). Frankly, my experience with a modern well-done 6,7, or 8 speed auto pretty much means I don't care, too much, if I never again have to row my own. The current crop of automatics really is, THAT GOOD! :surprise:

The point is (finally), the reason for the paucity of manual transmissions offered to us 'mericans is -- us.

Even when manuals are offered, few dealers stock them and if you find one on a dealer's lot it will probably be a strippie because the dealer knows any manual transmission car will sit and sit and sit and sit on the lot or showroom floor (an unlikely place to find one). The dealer has to finance the stick shift car just like any other and then, ultimately, discount the car so much that repeating the process becomes about as far away from the dealer's mind as the nearest star (other than our sun).

Some of the cars can be ordered with stick shifts, but again, we 'mericans want to cruise in on Saturday, test drive the car, buy it if we like it and take it home the same day. Gotta have it! Gotta have it!

Moreover, getting a bunch of folks to pony up money or even letters of intent to a manufacturer to buy, en masse, stick shift cars hardly ever works. Quick story: my friend used to own an Audi/Porsche store in Cincinnati; he said AoA accepted a "petition" ("You cannot petition the lord with prayer") to import A6's with manual transmissions (this was a few years back) -- well AoA was still in recovery mode from the '80s unintended acceleration fiasco and son-of-a-gun if AoA didn't begin offering A6's with 6-speed sticks.

No one bought them (OK, VIRTUALLY no one bought them).

The dealers and AoA probably felt like those cartoon characters who when fooled turn into a giant Tootsie-pop.

The Acura TL AWD is offered with one of the sweetest and smoothest sticks in the biz -- MAYBE 3% of TL's are special ordered with a stick, maybe.

The Audi A4 (I better check) can still be had with a 6-speed stick; but the 8-speed tip is a sweetie -- I wouldn't bother with the 6-speed manual anymore, especially if I had to worry about resale.

Sure there are rabid, foaming at the mouth, stick-shift die hards who will pay a premium for a used car with a stick shift (and maybe even willing to do so for a new one), but there aren't many of them, so one's ability to sell the car when one wants to (or when the dealer wants to -- meaning in the same YEAR as they acquired it, for instance) is very uncertain, compared to the same car with the auto.

How about this: Let's see if we can get 500 people to send in deposits to -- which car maker and for which model? No way we could get 500 folks to agree to order the same car -- no way would that many people want a (pick one.)

I doubt we could even get 50 of us to pool our "votes" (read MONEY) to make it worth any manufacturer's while to let us buy one of their manual transmission versions of the XYZ model that they sell in other markets but not here.

Not gonna happen, again "You cannot petition the lord with prayer."

I say qwiturbitchin' at least here -- virtually all ELLPS and probably literally all LPS cars only are offered with automatics (and pretty soon, I'll wager, only autos will be offered due to any real marketplace interest in stick shifts.)

Folks that will actually buy stick shifts are about as hard to find (from the manufacturer's perspective) as living survivors of the Civil War.

There, I'm over them [stick shifts not Civil War survivors], too.

Drive it like you live.

"You cannot petition the lord with prayer" quote - The Doors from the album "The Soft Parade"

markcincinnati

Even though I accept today's automatics as excellent pieces of tech -- I must admit that I do, still, enjoy manual transmissions.

Having said that, I still believe manuals will soon pretty much disappear from the automotive landscape.

On the other hand, you gotta admire, somewhat, Buick for bringing out a couple of new cars these past 12-24 months that offer sticks (of course the dealers say they are novelties, not really someting that has much of a market.)

More's the pity.

sweendogy

Thx you- meant to say base engine with a manual- atleast no the one I was looking at with xdrive . Thanks

Drive like you live
Sween

shipo

The good news here is that the new F30 3-Series has more interior space than my 2002 530i; given that the 530i was almost literally the perfect car size wise for my needs, wants and desires, I can opt for the new 328i 6-Speed and have my cake and eat it too.

sweendogy

I like cake.

Drive like you live.

Sween

dino001

I understand what you mean. First automatic I ever liked was a loaner 328i. Shifts were immediate, car never got confused or out of breath due to wrong gear ratios. Even a typical road disconnect due to torque converter (kinematic transmission) was not as present. I guess I may take my next car with auto, if manual is positively not available.

However, I just got a manual 328i in this Fall. And boy, isn't that machine sweet or what. I actually specifically got that 328 because it was THE ONLY ELLPS available as a manual wagon. Combined European Delivery and Performance Center Delivery (yes you can do both) is a three-month voyage full of joy and anticipation. While anticipation is a little frantic in last couple of weeks, the rest was simply fantastic. Mark, I see you're buying cars often, you should try it one day.

fedlawman

"The good news here is that the new F30 3-Series has more interior space than my 2002 530i."

External dimensions are getting there too...

shipo

Yup, but it is still smaller, lighter, more powerful, less expensive, better gas mileage, probably handles better, and has lots more goodies.

fedlawman

I agree.

There has probably never been a time in history when you got more car for the money than right now.

sweendogy

Interesting statement, what about 2008 when the eurusd was 1.60 vs 1.28 today

fedlawman

Because of the economic meltdown, car prices have stayed pretty stable since 08, yet features and performance have continued to climb. New MY2012 cars like the A6, 5-series, and C-Class got major revisions without rising significantly in price.

However, I think the biggest difference in value is in the compact car segment, where quality and features have skyrocketed in the past few years. Cars like the Focus and Cruze offer economy, performance, refinement and luxury unheard of in their segment back in 2008.

markcincinnati

I agree with your last paragraph. We're entering a period where "less is more" insofar as our choices in autos goes.

It used to be only "bigger is better" and that only the big cars got the "more is more" treatment.

I had (or my wife had, better said) three Audi TT's, the last two were the high performance models (at the time) with the 225HP 4 cylinder (1.8).

Due to a timing issue, I had the distinct "pleasure" (not really) of having her last TT as my daily driver for a month or so.

God, I felt like a bug when I drove it on I-71 in rush hour. A big semi (with trailer) would damn near blow me away -- or so it felt.

Now the car was nimble and very peppy and all that -- but damn, get me the hell outta here! This was my daily mantra.

When I then got my 2005 A6, I felt much better -- then when my 2009 A4 came in with a ~110" wheelbase and a wide stance, I felt better still.

Currently in our garage is an '11 Infiniti FX35 AWD and a '12 Acura TL AWD -- I have grown to like and pretty much can say, now after many months have passed, that I love driving either one of them.

As big as the Acura is, it is amazing to me that it only has a 109" wheelbase, yet it feels bigger still than my previous A6. Less is more, indeed.

Can't wait to come up with some excuse to test the new 3 series -- but I will, of course, await the X-drive model, as I simply wouldn't even consider 2WD period.

Best time ever, to be in the market -- yup!

Drive it like you live. :shades:

flightnurse

Sweeny the only 5 series not to come with a manual is 528i, the M5 will be coming with a manual. I'm only guess that the 528i doesn't have one because its an entry level 5 series and people wouldn't want one in it. Which is sad since it would be a great car with one.

flightnurse

Ray the new M5 does not come with a manual as of yet, however it is in the works, the other 5 series to have a manual is the 550i. Since BMW has revamped the 550i to really be a watered down M5, the 550i is on my very short list of cars...

flightnurse

Excellent post and yes the compact car segment has gotten better, I mean, leather interior, bluetooth, smooth ride, and quality interior, but it comes with a price, a fully loaded cruze is $26K, the new Buick Verano fully loaded is 30K so get these these goodies costs too.

flightnurse

The only thing the 6 has over the 4 is the smoothness of the engine and for some people that means a lot. There is no 4 cyl that will be as smooth as the BMW inline 6...

sweendogy

We will see flight if the is the case- I dont think BMW would put a crappy engine in a 5. Talk smooth all you want but Mpgs and acceleration is what brings people gets people hot.