Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Wellll, that is your opinion, of course. Others are free to hold their own opinions as I'm sure you will agree.

  • rhmassrhmass Member Posts: 263
    Any auto reviewer that can state 530i is the best sport sedans ever tested regardless price must know something about automobiles.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Yep, hear ya.

    But that vehicle probably doesn't fit into the discussion subject here, and CR isn't the subject either, so let's get back to talking about Near Luxury Performance Sedans.

    And happy new year!

  • raherraher Member Posts: 99
    I looked at buying a BMW 330i when I was looking at the 04TL. I bought the new TL ( auto with NAV ) because the equivelant features on the BMW were $10K more. Everything was "extra". I am sure the 330i is a killer ride and will outperform the TL in the twisty parts of the road ( but by how much?). Then again even after paying many extra $$$ for the performance package..the 330i is still down 35hp to the TL. I used to road race motorcycles and if I only had a buck for every time I passed people in a corner only to watch them go flying past on the straight because they had more hp. How many of you actually drive your cars hard enough in a corner to get the extra benefit of the RWD on the 330i ? Many of you do however drive fast on the freeway in a relatively straight line or drive in the snow. I'll take the $10G's and the 35hp and the stereo and the NAV and on and on and on.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "( but by how much?). "???

    That is exactly the question. When you plunk down $35K for a TL when you can get a perfectly acceptable Hyundia for $12K, you start to ask yourself, is the extra $23K worth it. Is the TL over 3000% better? Of course it isn't. You just like to make yourself feel better when you think your paying less for something that you believe to be equivalent and you are really making out -because there is something that can't be used that cost money in the other item, but people can't take advantage of it.

    That is the whole value equation in life. For me, either I'll get the Hyundia and pocket the $23K difference, or I'll spring for the extra $10K.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Right...how could anybody possibly take an unbiased, 68 year old publication who's Auto Test Department includes a 327-acre state-of-the-art test track and auto-testing facility, that seriously?

    Get real chrisboth. Your summation of CR is without any factual basis. All you have managed to do is compromise your own credibility.
  • bmwdougbmwdoug Member Posts: 248
    How in the World can you compare the price difference between a $12K Hyundia and a $35K TL? It makes no sense. There is no logic to your statement. The cars are in two different leagues. By your logic, why would you even buy the 3 series? It is just an entry luxury sedan. Why not spring for an extra $20,000 and get a 5 Series Sedan, or another $35,000 and get a 7 Series, or an Audi A8. And, if you don't want to spring for the extra cash, then why did you buy the 3 Series in the first place, just buy the Hyndia you keep talking about.
  • shenkarshenkar Member Posts: 159
    Calm down bmwdoug. You're missing the whole point, man.

    Noboby can make outlandish comparisons and generalizations like kd can. He's taken playing the devils advocate a whole other level. Just sit back, relax and watch a real master at work, dude. You'll learn something.

    Ok. Sorry for the interuption, kd. The floor is your again. Please tell us the story one more time, about how the TL is a communist plot to overthrow this country, and the Lexus ES, is our performance(?!?!) sedan savior.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    don't get into a debate with kd on value because to him, if you're not spending the money to drive a bmw, you might as well save as much as possible and buy a hyundai.

    i don't think there's any right answer on value. bmw has prestige and road handling that is in a class by itself and if you must have those 2 things, then spending the extra money for the bmw is worth it.

    if prestige does not matter to you and you're happy with a car which handles 90% as well as a BMW, then clearly it's not worth it to get the BMW.

    everyone's value system and economic means are different and results in different valuations of cars. if i'm making $50 million a year, i don't care about a $10k difference in car prices between a bmw and something else (it's less than 1% of my net worth) and i'll get what i want. if i'm making $50k a year, that extra $10k represents a much greater portion of my income (20% of my net worth) and i would not part with it unless i felt the car was 20% better.

    frankly, i'm sick and tired of the FWD vs. RWD debate. i have driven a ton of both FWD and RWD cars and just b/c a car is RWD doesn't mean it automatically drives better than a FWD car. Mercedes for example makes a pretty fine car, and it's RWD, but most Benzes I have ever driven have not been the greatest handling cars (Please note that I have not driven every model Benz, just going by personal exp. so no need to flame me for above statement).

    For example, I had to drive my cousin's ML320 this weekend to get more food for my New Year's Party (his car was the last one in the driveway so was the only one available).

    Well the seats and the sound system in the ML320 were great. The stiff steering, the sway in turns, and lack of feel on the road were awful. I hit double curves at 70 MPH in that ML320 to test it out and came out thinking, hmmm, this was a bad idea. The ML320 is a nice luxury car and has a much nicer interior than my Acura MDX, but in terms of handling, my FWD MDX kicks the RWD ML320.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Please tell us the story one more time, about how the TL is a communist plot to overthrow this country, and the ES is our performance(?!?!) sedan savior."

    I'm not advocating any one car, because I think they are both excellent cars for the individual who wants to purchase them.

    I do like to play devils advocate when someone says why pay top dollar for car x, when car y offers almost the same for less and anyway you'll never use all of car x's ability. That's all well and good but you have to add the four little letters: IMHO. Who is anybody to suggest to ME, how I should spend MY money and whether a particular car is worth it to ME and whether I will or won't derive any added benefit for paying more? This train of thought can be applied against any two vehicles.

    That being said, sometimes people will compare vehicles that are not really in the same target market and look at each vehicle on their own merits and then make a choice. Sometimes it doesn't matter if you get a two or seven seater and you can compare the two seater with the seven seater and each can be good in their own right. And a point in time either can satisify your requirements.

    saugatak - this is not a BMW thread and comparing these two vehicles has nothing to do with BMW. I am very familiar with both cars and each of these are fine vehicles in their own right. They offer different qualities that make them very attractive to potential purchasers. There is not one worldly overridding value equation that would make anyone jump at one car or another. If there were, a manufacturer wouldn't be able to give their vehicles away.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    "Noboby can make outlandish comparisons and generalizations like kd can. He's taken playing the devils advocate a whole other level. Just sit back, relax and watch a real master at work, dude. You'll learn something."

    Most people call it being argumentative and find it annoying.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    saugatak - I am going to respectfully suggest you are missing the point of this whole thing and in the course of not understanding the point you call people argumentative. It is not about, which car is better because every car has it's compromises. And after all it is not you that is financing my car, it's me. It is about what is the best car for me. The ES and TL, as every other vehicle each have it's plus and minus and I'm going to make a decision based on what I believe is the right choice for me. Doesn't matter what CR, JD Power, Edmunds, you or anybody else says.
  • shenkarshenkar Member Posts: 159
    "Most people call it being argumentative and find it annoying."

    Yeah...but only if you take him seriously. Why would any thinking individual do that???
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    As far as the RWD vs FWD debate, to some people it makes a big difference, for whatever the reason is to a particular person. A BMW 3 series, like the TL, like the ES is not a "one size fits all". It depends on what one considers a priority in the vehicle they are purchasing. There is no one "rightly" engineered vehicle.
  • gregory28gregory28 Member Posts: 174
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    shenkar: LOL

    kdshapiro: KD, YOU are the only person missing the point so let me spell it out for you.

    You continually go around demanding that everyone respect your choice of car, but you show absolutely no respect for any other person's choice of car--unless of course that person chooses a BMW.

    You continuously make fun of the TL, you say that you prefer the looks of a Lexus ES330 over a TL but you also like the looks of the pre-Bangle and post-Bangle BMWs but don't like the look of Pontiac Grand Ams (real headscratcher), you keep saying if you're not getting a BMW buy a Hyundai, you say the criticism of Consumer Review is worthless because it ranked the TL over the BMW (I didn't notice any such criticism when the BMW was ranked above the TL), I mean this list is endless.

    The only consistent theme in your wildly inconsistent statements is BUY BMW (do you own shares?). You keep talking about your objectivity but I don't see it. You say every car has tradeoffs and when I ask you what tradeoff the X5 has your response is "It doesn't seat seven." LOL, that is scathing criticism!

    Some people have sold their soul to the devil, kdshapiro has sold his soul to BMW.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    There really isn't any comparison between FWD and RWD. They may both generate similar track numbers, though even that is unlikely, but they will do it in an entirely different way. When you put 60% or thereabouts of weight up front and have the drive wheels do the steering, you will get a different driving experience.

    As for value, the IS300 manual is the sleeper. You get near 330i performance, luxury, and equipment for 325i price. Not to mention reliability, warranty, customer service, etc.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "you say the criticism of Consumer Review is worthless because it ranked the TL over the BMW "

    I don't know what CR said, since the only issue I have is the 2004 Auto Guide. In that issue CR said something like the Accord is almost as good as the 2004 TL for $5K less.

    And I'll say it again, unabashedly...if you want the best driving dynamics the 3-series is the benchmark. The 3-series isn't for everyone just like the TL isn't for everyone, but it is the benchmark in the entry level luxo sports sedan market.

    You have to choose the vehicle that you feel comfortable with. Everything else you said in your post is garbage.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    riez, i didn't know that the IS300 had a stick. I will have to take a close look at it. Thanks for the tip.
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    When I was car shopping in the early 90's, I had just been blessed with my first child and was, accordingly, shopping for my first "family" car. CR had a shootout involving the Honda Accord and the Toyota Camry. The Accord, according to them, had better road feel, better acceleration, better brakes, better handling, etc (they labelled it the "driver's car" of the comparison). The Camry, on the other hand, was quieter, had better trunk access, was slightly larger (if I remember correctly), etc. The Camry won the comparison based on stuff that was mostly unimportant to me but was definitely important to others. (FWIW, I ended up with an Altima, but that was based on a financial decision above all else... for as reliable as it was, I never really liked that car).

    Anyway, I think CR is an excellent source of, mostly, objective info. The buyer has to decide what is most important for their driving style and lifestyle, take the appropriate cars out for a test-drive and then choose accordingly.
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    That's one of the best guarded secret's in the industry. :-)

    Lexus did themselves a huge dis-service by releasing a good sport sedan in auto only for quite a while. Infinity did it with the G35, but they followed pretty quickly with the manual tranny and were pretty good about letting people know it was coming soon.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "I do like to play devils advocate when someone says why pay top dollar for car x, when car y offers almost the same for less and anyway you'll never use all of car x's ability. That's all well and good but you have to add the four little letters: IMHO."

    Okay, so you want other people to write "IMHO", but how come you don't preface your posts with the four little letters?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Okay, so you want other people to write "IMHO", but how come you don't preface your posts with the four little letters"

    "I do like to play devils advocate when someone says why pay top dollar for car x, when car y offers almost the same for less and anyway you'll never use all of car x's ability. That's all well and good but you have to add the four little letters: IMHO."

    jrock - at times you appear to be articulate, so here is a further explanation. The above quote from the original poster is an opinion, but it's also appears to be a thinly veiled opinion disguised as jealously. To reach that conclusion I draw on my own experience. I said similiar things to a friend of mine who wanted to purchase a 911. I asked him how he could justify the purchase of a 911 because the roads are crowded and you'll never be able to use all of the abilities of the car anyway and you are never going to track it. Why don't you get an M5 it's about half the price?

    He said to me: "Because I want it and I can." Now that was me being jealous. I think we all do this stuff. Now jrock - let me add IMHO.

    But we could beat this till the cows come home. CR does provide objective, factual information. I have been a reader since I was 16. And I do trust more than any other magazine their factually gathered information on autos. However, my reliability experience with cars has not jived in the past with theirs. In addition, as kominsky stated above, my priorities have not meshed with their priorities. When they pick a top rated sedan, they do so for general populace. Sometimes it's just not the car I'm looking for due to other reasons, and I pick a car that's not quite top-rated by them, but offers me what I need.
  • kennyg5kennyg5 Member Posts: 360
    IMHO, the BMW 3 series is the best handling car in the bunch, hands down. Moreover, you get the prestige of a "premium" nameplate if you don't mind giving up heated leather seats, sunroof, CD changer, nav and other niceties that are included in a comparably priced TL. Also, if you are single or have a family with small kids only (rear seat space and trunk size), the BMW is ideal because its relatively smaller size enhances nimbleness. If you are concerned about snow (RWD), get the new AWD Beemer, which costs a couple of grand more.

    Having said all of the above, I would rather get the G35, which gives up little (if any) in performance and handling when compared with the Beemer, and use the $$ savings in filling up the gas tank that gives me miles of driving pleasure, plus the reliability of Infiniti to boot :-)
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    saugatak... The IS300 manual has been on the market since MY2002. The IS300 came out in MY2001, but only with an automatic. The SportCross (touring) also came out in MY2002.

    Keep in mind that the IS300 does have a 5-speed manual. 5th is a slight overdrive. You can only get the 5-speed manual in the sedan. The SportCross version comes only with the 5-speed automatic.

    You can get LSD with both transmissions, but you can only get Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) with the automatic.

    Can be a bit hard to find a 5-speed manual. Many Lexus dealers aren't keen on them since the overwhelming vast majority of Lexi ever sold had automatics. Check with some dealers.

    Love my '04 IS300 5-speed manual. Absolute blast to drive. Fun, efficient car.
  • raherraher Member Posts: 99
    "I do like to play devils advocate when someone says why pay top dollar for car x, when car y offers almost the same for less and anyway you'll never use all of car x's ability. That's all well and good but you have to add the four little letters: IMHO."

    My post was the one that started this discussion and it is interesting that most of the subsequent discussions weren't discussions about the cars but were mostly personal discussions about the people posting.
    I don't think I neeed to put IMHO on anything I write since it should be apparent that it is my opinion because I am writing it !
    My point was more along the lines of value for performance and "near luxury". I think the TL is the winner on those merits because I get more for my money with the TL. Paying an extra $10K for the prestige of the BMW name is OK if what you want is prestige. I am sure the guy in the 330i I blew off at the stoplight the other day is telling himself he has more "prestige".
    I am not sure every 330i owner is going to lose me on twisty road sections but I do know what 35hp in a straight line means. It means he better lose me in the twisty sections because he will give it back when the road straightens out.
    For the $10K I didn't spend on the BMW 330i do you suppose I could make even more performance improvements or make many "near luxury" improvements to my TL? Oh, that's right the TL already comes with more than the BMW !
    I saw a 2004 535i yesterday....not a pretty car.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Some people don't focus on the value side of the equation. I do and I don't and it depends on what I'm getting. Sometimes I want the best. I felt the $5K more for the driving experience of a BMW is worth every penny. I spend a lot of time in my car and this is the most fun I've ever had. Keep your supposed goodies.

    The 3 series goes to 60 in 5.6 seconds and has a top speed of 153, does the quarter mile at about 98 and 14.(recent Car and Driver). I'm sure the guy you blew off at the light was laughing at you thinking: "this guy has a new car and has to show it off, it's just not worth it". Stop light races never impress me. Let's go to the track.

    If you believe people buy BMW for prestige, than all people have to buy the upscale brands for prestige as well. After all why would one buy a BMW for prestige, but not an Acura, the upscale division of Honda, for prestige? If one wants to argue about the amount of "prestige" a car has go ahead. I sincerely believe people buy a car because of the reputation of the manufacturer.

    One list thing about value. I don't need to be told a TL has more value than a 330, a Honda Accord has more value than a TL, a Mazda 6 four-banger has more value than an Accord, an Elantra has more value than a Mazda 6 four-banger. It's a given, the less you spend on a car the more value it has because it is fulfilling a basic need of getting you from point a to point b. What somebody on this forum would want to know is what is the rational for purchasing one vehicle over another. Prestige, poseurs, kinds of people who buy automobiles etc, don't answer that question, they are only self-serving reasons.

    "I saw a 2004 535i yesterday....not a pretty car."

    It's a heck of a lot more handsome than the Acura TL. But that's IMHO.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    You are both right. The new E60 5 Series and the new TL are ugly on the outside. Just like the new Maxima. Stylists styling purely for trendy styling sake. See, it isn't that hard to agree, is it?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Leave it to riez to find common ground.:)
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "if prestige does not matter to you and you're happy with a car which handles 90% as well as a BMW, then clearly it's not worth it to get the BMW."

    The last tome I looked at comparison stats the 330i handled about 90-95% as well as the G...Prestige notwithstanding.

    As far as CR being reliable in terms of performance oriented reviews, I agree with KDShapiro in that they targtet the mass buyer and will point out some very intersting negatives occasionally. There are many IMO that will agree that they are a little more camry and minivan comparison worthy than 350Z and ZHP worthy. 50,000 acre test facililty wont get them better drivers or more enthused drivers.

    All the arguments about the price/value equation have the same old value is in the eye of the beholder ending. The thing people forget with the G is that prestige is not paid for in the diplacement department and if a hypothetical buyer wants to get into the low 14 game with world class brakes and handling, he can get it for 28k. Want a comparable 330i and how much is it? 10k more at least. The whole value thing gets blown out of proportion and people need to relilze that BMW is excxlusive in that they will beat you to death with any options and everything is optional. That add'l .5 litres is a big nut and takes a very reasonable platform that can be had for a pretty good priced and makes it the same price as a 5 series.

    Someone above said you could spend 20k more than a 3 and just get the 5 series - NO - you can spend less and get a 5 series in some cases. The 3 is pricey cuz people will pay it. It's called good marketing and great product/name perceptions.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "It's called good marketing and great product/name perceptions."

    Yes and I'd like to add it's also called execution and delivery. BMW products deliver. They are not an empty shill.

    Chris it's always about value. It never stops being about value, but everybodys' definition is different. That is why some people will buy a $70K Rolex and some people a $10 Timex. Who am I to tell the $70K Rolex buyer it does not represent good value to them. They after all both tell time.

    I can't. You can only buy what you believe fits you and your lifestyle. You will buy as much as finances allow, not less. That's why you ridicule a Hyundia. Think of how the less fortunate must feel when they get their first new Hyundia.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hyundai. It's spelled Hyundai.

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Thank you. I can't spel without my glases. :)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I understand. I can't hear without mine! :)
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    I think it would be a fair fight at a red light or the racetrack.

    BMW 330i
    Transmission: 6-speed manual
    Zero to 60 mph: 5.6 sec
    Zero to 100 mph: 15.3 sec
    Standing 1/4-mile: 14.3 sec @ 97 mph
    Top speed (drag limited): 152 mph
    Road holding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.86 g

    Acura TL
    Transmission: 6-speed manual
    Zero to 60 mph: 5.7 sec
    Zero to 100 mph: 14.6 sec
    Standing 1/4-mile: 14.4 sec @ 99 mph
    Top speed (governor limited): 152 mph
    Road holding, 300-ft-dia skid pad: 0.81 g
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    One more stat:

    TL 70 to 0 - 189 feet
    330 70 to 0 - 158 feet.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    On braking, are you referring to the 6MT TL which has Brembos, or are you referring to the 5AT TL which does not?

    Second, I don't understand why BMW just does not up the horsepower in its inline 6s. Those engines have been around for a while. With all the work BMW has done on its VANOS V8s, surely they can migrate some of the technology down and free up some additional horsepower.

    I've heard that Honda has the ability to get 350 HP out of its basic SOHC VTEC v6 engine. If true, that is amazing engineering and good news for Acura fans because we'll always be ahead of everyone else when it comes to the HP game. Of course, Honda had better make a RWD platform soon so we can take advantage of that power!

    No matter what BMW fans say about "Well I could beat u on the track" or "I don't have torque steer" or "if the roads were winding you'd eat my dust", fact is raw horsepower is incredibly useful and most racing occurs not in tracks or windy roads, but on freeways or from stop light to stop light.

    Every time I'm merging into the right line of a busy highway with a short exit ramp and I see that 6-ton trailer coming in my rear view mirror, I'm glad for all the horses I have and am happy for more.

    I find that these discussions always start off comparing value, driving dynamics, prestige, etc. but at some point the ULTIMATE ARGUMENT gets unleashed: "Keep telling yourself how much better your car is while you eat my dust and look at my car's disappearing [non-permissible content removed]."

    It's great that TL drivers can make the ultimate argument.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Keep telling yourself how much better your car is while you eat my dust and look at my car's disappearing [non-permissible content removed]."

    Well if you think you can go ahead.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "IMHO? You haven't had a humble opinion yet. I started this string with a legitimate question of performance and value"

    Actually raher, you have been nasty. I spent a lot of time at the track when I was younger. I'm not saying BMW is the be all and end all but performance and value, are completely opposite. If you think the TL will track better than the 3 series more power to you. BTW racing non-street legal cars is a whole different ball game than taking your street legal almost unmodified car to the track.

    Hey raher, my Bimmer has been to the shop..oh lets' see May 2003 last, before that August 2002. I think once a year to the shop for an oil change is sufficient. Total out of pocket costs to date: $0. I think it qualifies as reliable.

    BTW what point are you trying to make in your post????
  • raherraher Member Posts: 99
    Speaking of what point are you trying to make...I am not following your observation that taking non street legal cars to the track is a whole different ball game than taking your street legal almost unmodified car to the track. What was your first clue ? What is your point ?
    I am fairly certain that the statistics on repairs etc for BMW's probably include a few more cars than just yours. I am on my third Acura and have never had a problem. Acura is rated as the number one most reliable automobile between 1999-2003 by your favorite uninformed magazine, Consumer Reports.
    My point in the original post ( remember I started this discussion ) and my continuing point on this subject is that for $35K I believe the '04 Acura TL is the best value out there in a 4 door automobile. What you get for a given amount of money is one way to measure value. You get more for $35K in the TL than any of it's competitors.
    BTW, "hey raher" ? Nice touch.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Ok raher...we'll leave it at that. We have two different thought processes going here and all is good. There is room on this planet for both opinions, both thoughts and both cars. :)
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    Its Shapiro spewing his BMW elitist rhetoric. Funny how some things don't change. :)
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 29,501
    one other important thing missing from those stats is price.

    I don't have that info from the mag handy, but that 330i apparently had the performance pack. Add in all the options already included in the TL and it looks to me to stack up something like this:
    TL - $33K
    330i - $47K

    maybe someone can correct me if i'm wrong.

    '07 ML63, '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '14 Town&Country Limited. 54-car history and counting!

  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    You absolutily right, comparable equipped 330 does cost more that10K over TL.

    And one more thing 330 for 35K does not have better performance in any way. Like KD, I am going to make Huyndai example her. 330 without performance package is like Huyndai in every way in and out.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Correct but you still get a car that will outhandle the TL on a track, or a street.

    According to our worthless source CR, the standard 330i will outhandle the standard G35. I am sure the standard G35 will outhandle the standard TL. Therefore the standard 330i will outhandle the standard TL.

    I don't begrudge the TL anything, you can have your goodies, but I'll take the driving experience. For those who think the 330 with performance package costs $47, Blueguydotcom got his for about $39K. You might want to search the 3-series board for more information. No, it wasn't a stripper.

    But all of this is academic until both these cars are taken to the track.

    Ahhh speedracer good to see you back spewing your garbage as well. :)
  • frenchy2002frenchy2002 Member Posts: 40
    The vast majority of BMW owners do not drive manuals, nor do they speed....because you cannot speed in the US anyway. Just like most SUV owners do not go off road. It is all about status!
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Acura TL
    60-0 mph: 115 feet "Braking performance is top-notch, too, with 60-to-0 stops averaging a short, neat 115 feet. Our drivers were very impressed with our 6-speed's all-disc ABS brakes with Brembo front calipers. Results are comparable to some recent Porsche's we've tested." -- MotorWeek

    That's right Shapiro...Porsche's!
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    At this year's 2004 Los Angeles Auto Show, Acura unveiled its TL A-Spec Concept. This car sits on a two inch wider track with 21 inch wheels and is powered by a modified 3.2-liter V6 that puts out a total of 300 hp!

    If this car makes it to production (and it probably will), it will leave the 330i in the dust and give the 5-Series a run for its money.
  • zumbalakzumbalak Member Posts: 3
    I saw the arguments about the TL and the 330. It is all about the buyer's choice. I love my 03 M3 and I also love my 03 G35. They are IMHO exceptional cars for the price I paid. I believe m3 handling can not be easily matched with a car in the same price range, except the corvette. g35 is also an excellent car and handles almost as good as the 330, i got the g because i didn't want another bmw 3 series. the car is exceptional when it comes to performance and the looks, many people talk to me about the car in parking lots and gas stations. meanwhile an m3 is as we know m3.
    i recently test drove the tl (actually borrowed it from the dealer - manager is my friend) and there was so much hype about the car, so i got it for a couple of hours (their demo) drove around the town. and i was quite impressed, it is a way better car than the old tl. but the hype in my opinion is not well worth.
    the sound system works excellent if you actually have a dvd audio disc (they had one that was sent from the factory i think) and it is just excellent quality. but when you put a regular cd it is nothing ordinary.
    the performance, it has excellent pick up, but the fwd downgrades the potential of this car. whatever others say, there is the torque steer, this car would have been excellent as an rwd, and i think as far as the pick up (in street start the g will beat the tl, well we know m3 performance is something else)
    the interior is good quality but does not match the refinement of the bmw 3 series or the audi or the mb, but better than the g. the interior space was less than the g along with the trunk space. i guess the g is a larger car overall and that makes a lot of difference, especially for me with a family and lots of people in the car at all times. i think interior space is similar to 3 series sedan. i am 6'3" and with my seating position there was almost no space at the back of the driver's seat (a similarity to the 3 sedan)
    the handling of the car is not as refined as the 3 or the g. i realized this when i was entering a highway ramp at about 60-65 mph, and felt the need to hold the steering wheel with both hands very steady because the car almost got out of the road. it was a scary moment, and such wouldn't happen with a rwd 3 series or the g or the quattro audi. the handling is of course no issue in straight roads, but not everybody drives crazy like me in the backroads.
    i would prefer an audi quattro, 3 series or the g for backroads, mountain roads, but definitely not a tl. the car just didn't make me feel comfortable enough, kind of made me scared in a couple of situations.
    the looks are not so much in my style, it feels so dull and very accord like. it doesn't have a unique feeling of itself. i think they should have worked on the looks a little bit longer.
    overall the tl is an excellent value for an ordinary daily driver. it offers so much for so less, good interior, good performance, good safety features, and a low msrp.
    but for those who don't mind spending the extra cash i know that many will opt for other vehicles. acura tl in my opinion is the choice for first time near-luxo car buyers who do not have the ability of spending another 5k without worrying about their pockets.

    i am looking forward to the new vette and most likely i will be the first in line to add the car into my garage. and then maybe trade in the g for the 05 audi a6 quattro.

    meanwhile the argument of bmw is better than tl better than mb better than g better than this that can go on forever. but one need to know that everybody has a different budget, and different reason for buying a car. some people may not mind spending 40k, some people may only afford 34k some can not even afford that and some go out and buy a ferrari for 200k. instead of comparing i think it is best to drive the car and enjoy the purchase.

    i honestly did not see a ferrari owner and a lamborghini owner fighting and arguing about their cars and try to prove one is better than the other.

    because they just don't care much, they enjoy th
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "At this year's 2004 Los Angeles Auto Show, Acura unveiled its TL A-Spec Concept. This car sits on a two inch wider track with 21 inch wheels and is powered by a modified 3.2-liter V6 that puts out a total of 300 hp!
    If this car makes it to production (and it probably will), it will leave the 330i in the dust and give the 5-Series a run for its money. car alerady has 270 - another 30 HP does not thrust this car into supercar status especially since it's torque output will prob be about where it is now.

    Dont forget BMW has a perf pack for the 3 as well...be sure to compare apples.

    And will those big wheels help the torque steer that the existing car seems to struggle with..It might not be pretty taking a FWD format that is pressed to perform even in the acccord and add HP??
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