While I agree that some GM car/ trucks (especially older models) are not built all that well, the newer ones are generally very good. There is a reason GM quality numbers are coming up faster than any other car maker. As more and more of the old models are replaced, I suspect you will only see the quality and reliability number continue to keep climbing.
I know you hate GM, but I suspect you will be surprised with the Colorado.
Just like I love the Catera/CTS, cause they are built off of platforms other than GM ones...
I don't hate GM. I hate them cause I've gotten screwed by them on several occassions, and I can't afford to be stuck w/o a working vehicle. My subarus and isuzus have not gotten me stuck 1x in over 500K miles...
Are designed by GM Europe, that is correct, but it's not the same thinking as Detroit.
Subaru is only owned 20% by GM. As for GM influence, the only GM influence in Isuzu was the Hombre and the 4 cylinder engines in the Amigo/Rodeo. The Ascendor is all a GM clone, you saw how well the Hombre sold, I expect the Ascendor to sell just as well!
As for Subaru, there is no GM influence beyond On-star in those vehicles.
Well I don't care who controls them, so long as it doesn't effect the end product they are a silent partner, it's when they go meddling by sticking their nose into things like the Hombre and other clones that they screw up things.
Hombre was never sold here, but it wasn't a good idea anyway. No big loss.
Without GM, Isuzu would be gone from the US already. I don't think they will last much longer anyway unless things change real soon. I know you will say it's GMs fault that they are in the mess they are in, but it always EZ to blame the big corp. Fact is, they have never had a great line up. I know they have had some good ideas in the past, but never have they produced a great truck (or car). The Joe marketing campaign worked for a while but that only lasts so long unless you have the goods.
Hey, I know you like your Isuzu and it's a good vehicle. It's just that when you are a niche player you have to be very good in your niche like Subaru, but I just don't think Isuzus are as good. Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.
No offense but in '92-'94 the Rodeo was the #1 import SUV. Trooper won SUV of the year a few times.
And if GM had not strangled their advertising, they'd be selling tons of them.
What about the Trooper makes it not a "great" truck? It's #2 in reliability behind the 4-runner in it's class both by JD Power and Associates and Consumer Reports. For the price it totally out gunned everything in it's class as far as content. Has one of the best AWD/4WD systems in the business. And Stock for Stock is one of the best offroaders out there.
Now if you are talking about soccer mom vehicles, yup it's not cut out for that duty.
Isuzu killed themselves though, they never marketed their trucks properly. They out featured most SUVs throughout the 90s, but they never capitalized on them. But I'm not convinced it was 100% Isuzus fault, GM squelched their advertising against the Blazers/Tahoes, and so they couldn't compete. Also they heavily discounted their trucks rather than just having a low MSRP. If it had a lower MSRP, they would have been getting better press from the magazines.
" in '92-'94 the Rodeo was the #1 import SUV. Trooper won SUV of the year a few times".
Who gave them the award?
While reliability is good, an SUV also has to be attractive to the consumer and the press and Isuzu has never impressed anyone except maybe the hard core off road crowd of which there are few. Even there, the Isuzus have never beat up the competition which they really should be doing given they are a niche player. Subaru has done this with the best 4WD/AWD cars around and this is why they will survive and Isuzu likely won't. It's too bad, but there are too many players now and the weaker ones have to die. I have an Oldsmobile Intrigue and while it's a great car, it too was squeezed out in this very competitive market.
I believe the 91, 92, 93 and maybe the 94 model year won the title from serveral review sites. Motortrend was 91-93. There are a lot of offroad online magazines that gave the early 90's models that title, basically beacuseit was the first SUV to come well equipped and capable to do light to heavy duty offroad work stock.
"Oldsmobiles are clones of GM cars, GM has too many clones and they cannibalize themselves!"
I disagree about clones being a disadvantage. I think it provides more choices for consumers. Older buyers tend to prefer the styling and interior of Buicks. Luxury car shoppers and gangstas like Cadillacs. People who want sporty-looking cars prefer Pontiacs. Average Joe looking for no-frills basic transportation buys a Chevrolet (excluding the 'vette, of course). I think GM is smart in this sense for having brands that appeal to many different buyers rather than producing one car for the masses like many other companies do.
That people buy Pontiacs and Buicks and GM clones based on what they bought before. Oldsmobile owners will just buy Pontiacs or Buicks now. It's such a farce though cause anyone knows that the cars are all the same!
I do not believe that this is good for the consumer. Let's face it, a cadillac escalade is a tahoe in drag. In my opinion there is no reason for GM to offer the same product under 4 names other than to keep multiple UAW plants afloat.
Remember when cadillac was luxury, oldsmobile was style, and pontiac was performance. When was the last time you lusted over a grand am? At least Pontiac is taking a step in the right direction with the reintroduction of the GTO. But alas, this is a re-badged Holden from down under.
Not to mention the GTO is very very closely related to the CTS, just a coupe version. There is nothing really special, they could offer a CTS V8 coupe and it would essentially be the same vehicle! (both are from the sigma platform)
"Let's face it, a cadillac escalade is a tahoe in drag"
That's true, but doesn't just about every company do this? An Acura TL is a Honda Accord, an Infiniti I35 is a Nissan Maxima, a Ford Explorer is a Mercury Mountaineer and a Lincoln Aviator.
Why does Hershey Company make so many different candy bars? I bet some of them are even made in the same factories. It's all about choice, and it benefits the consumer.
Basically you could have 2 different trim levels of the You can have Tahoe, Denali and Escalade all under one roof. No need to have 3 different dealer networks etc. They take consumers for idiots! I guess cause we are such lemmings here in the states we buy into it.
Oldsmobiles (aside from the Alero) all had completely different power trains, exteriors and interiors. There was very few common parts between a Grand Prix and an Intrigue for example.
As for the GTO, there is nothing in common with CTS aside from the similar platform?
How you can even say what you are saying is unbelievable!
Every company uses common platforms, especially Honda and Toyota. It's the only way to keep costs down.
I would hate to hear what you think about cross-company platform sharing. Pop the hood on a Pontiac Vibe and you see Toyota written all over the engine...
Very few new models are "clones" (aside from Chev trucks and GMC). Yes, GM USED to re-badge a lot, but to say an Intrigue is a "clone" of any other GM mid-size is just plain wrong and if you ever sat in one (let along drove one), you would know you are wrong.
Platform sharing is not re-badging or "cloning" as you call it.
To me a clone is anything that is essentially under the skin the same vehicle. Which most of the GMs are. Of course the body skins are different, but the engineering and bolt-ons are the same...
I will admit I think Isuzu (or GM) should have made the Ascender more distinguishable from the GM triplets. From the side it is nearly impossible to tell it apart from an Envoy XL. I think Isuzu should have used some different body skins and at least a different interior layout from the triplets. Why couldn't they have just borrowed the frame and powertrain but made the vehicle unique?
You want to see some really bad "clones", come up here and check out the Acura 1.8. It's a gussied up Civic with an Acura badge which in my opinion makes Acura look really bad. I don't know why it's not sold in the US. I can't believe people are stupid enough to pay $$ for an Acura badge on their Civic.
Intrigue has a 3.5L DOHC engine that was not shared with any other division. It also had stability control systems, steering systems and other features not found on other w-bodies. It was far from a "clone".
Stability control is available in almost all GM vehicles now. Yeah they may have tried out something slightly different on the Olds but it eventually found it's way into the other cars or got axed. I believe Oldsmobile was considered their R&D line if I'm not mistaken.
I agree, the Isuzu Ascender really does look like a clone. Pretty bad.
The Trailblazer and Envoy really have distinctively different looks, but obviously Isuzu didn't have the money to do much with their version. Oh well, at least it's a good truck.
The Ascendor doesn't have anything to do with Isuzu at all! IT IS A GM with an Isuzu Badge on it!
And good truck???? Haaaa read the Triplets forum on here and you'll see it's far from "good", maybe compared to c.1980s American cars it's "good" but it's far below the reliability and design standards of today, several problems:
Rear Gaskets weren't installed on lisc. plate area Warping fascias and bumper skins 2nd Row seats that rub against acc. outlet and tear the leather Can't fold down 2nd row of seats if the front row is in the rear most seating position Worst angles of approach and departure of any SUV in it's class. A step backward as far as the 4wd system (part time v. TOD) Wandering mirror problems PCM and ECU problems over and over Electronic Fan-clutch engagement problem "Oh just turn off the car and back on, that will reboot the ECU" was noted by several people as a fix from the GM 800#
Ok so then why bother with Lo-range. Why bother with skid-plates. People are all for vanity, they are all lemmings, quite sad. Why build a vehicle for off-road if it doesn't go there????? Argggg this annoys me to no end, people like this. Isuzu should just build the best off-road vehicles and stay in that niche, cause they'll never compete with the cookie cutter companies like GM, Toyota, etc. They just don't have the economies of scale!
But if any of the Non-big Boys think they can churn out vehicles that are mainstream and be competative they are dead wrong. Why would you buy an Isuzu Ascender over a GM Envoy or Trailblazer? No one can answer that other than the warranty. Which is mute because there are like 400 dealers that will honor that warranty and have zero experience working on these vehicles.
Isuzu should have done what Subaru did with the outback, go for the niche market and make a profit, rather than try to be everything for everyone.
You are right, Isuzu is going to focus on the Duramax Diesels (which GM would love to get their hands on) and Box trucks (that GM re-badges in the US).
GM buys the Duramax from Isuzu currently. GM would like to get the ownership(or more ownership) of Duramax. Toyota will be using them in their Pickups and SUVs shortly as well.
GM will bring out a version next year that has a retractable rear roof panel, removable seats and a fold down tail gate. It transforms into truck like the avalanche. There are no plans to share this design with the Ascender. Too bad, they could call it an "ava-hombree" or perhaps the "mexican mudslide". Any more name suggestions?
Comments
I know you hate GM, but I suspect you will be surprised with the Colorado.
Just like I love the Catera/CTS, cause they are built off of platforms other than GM ones...
I don't hate GM. I hate them cause I've gotten screwed by them on several occassions, and I can't afford to be stuck w/o a working vehicle. My subarus and isuzus have not gotten me stuck 1x in over 500K miles...
-mike
As for Subaru / Isuzu.. good luck and newer models. Both under a lot of GM control anyway.
Subaru is only owned 20% by GM. As for GM influence, the only GM influence in Isuzu was the Hombre and the 4 cylinder engines in the Amigo/Rodeo. The Ascendor is all a GM clone, you saw how well the Hombre sold, I expect the Ascendor to sell just as well!
As for Subaru, there is no GM influence beyond On-star in those vehicles.
-mike
I didn't say influence.. I said control. Big diff.
CTS IIRC is based on the Sigma Platform...
-mike
Without GM, Isuzu would be gone from the US already. I don't think they will last much longer anyway unless things change real soon. I know you will say it's GMs fault that they are in the mess they are in, but it always EZ to blame the big corp. Fact is, they have never had a great line up. I know they have had some good ideas in the past, but never have they produced a great truck (or car). The Joe marketing campaign worked for a while but that only lasts so long unless you have the goods.
Hey, I know you like your Isuzu and it's a good vehicle. It's just that when you are a niche player you have to be very good in your niche like Subaru, but I just don't think Isuzus are as good. Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.
And if GM had not strangled their advertising, they'd be selling tons of them.
What about the Trooper makes it not a "great" truck? It's #2 in reliability behind the 4-runner in it's class both by JD Power and Associates and Consumer Reports. For the price it totally out gunned everything in it's class as far as content. Has one of the best AWD/4WD systems in the business. And Stock for Stock is one of the best offroaders out there.
Now if you are talking about soccer mom vehicles, yup it's not cut out for that duty.
Isuzu killed themselves though, they never marketed their trucks properly. They out featured most SUVs throughout the 90s, but they never capitalized on them. But I'm not convinced it was 100% Isuzus fault, GM squelched their advertising against the Blazers/Tahoes, and so they couldn't compete. Also they heavily discounted their trucks rather than just having a low MSRP. If it had a lower MSRP, they would have been getting better press from the magazines.
-mike
Who gave them the award?
While reliability is good, an SUV also has to be attractive to the consumer and the press and Isuzu has never impressed anyone except maybe the hard core off road crowd of which there are few. Even there, the Isuzus have never beat up the competition which they really should be doing given they are a niche player. Subaru has done this with the best 4WD/AWD cars around and this is why they will survive and Isuzu likely won't. It's too bad, but there are too many players now and the weaker ones have to die. I have an Oldsmobile Intrigue and while it's a great car, it too was squeezed out in this very competitive market.
Oldsmobiles are clones of GM cars, GM has too many clones and they cannibalize themselves!
-mike
-mike
I disagree about clones being a disadvantage. I think it provides more choices for consumers. Older buyers tend to prefer the styling and interior of Buicks. Luxury car shoppers and gangstas like Cadillacs. People who want sporty-looking cars prefer Pontiacs. Average Joe looking for no-frills basic transportation buys a Chevrolet (excluding the 'vette, of course). I think GM is smart in this sense for having brands that appeal to many different buyers rather than producing one car for the masses like many other companies do.
-mike
Remember when cadillac was luxury, oldsmobile was style, and pontiac was performance. When was the last time you lusted over a grand am? At least Pontiac is taking a step in the right direction with the reintroduction of the GTO. But alas, this is a re-badged Holden from down under.
-mike
That's true, but doesn't just about every company do this? An Acura TL is a Honda Accord, an Infiniti I35 is a Nissan Maxima, a Ford Explorer is a Mercury Mountaineer and a Lincoln Aviator.
Why does Hershey Company make so many different candy bars? I bet some of them are even made in the same factories. It's all about choice, and it benefits the consumer.
Basically you could have 2 different trim levels of the You can have Tahoe, Denali and Escalade all under one roof. No need to have 3 different dealer networks etc. They take consumers for idiots! I guess cause we are such lemmings here in the states we buy into it.
-mike
Oldsmobiles (aside from the Alero) all had completely different power trains, exteriors and interiors. There was very few common parts between a Grand Prix and an Intrigue for example.
As for the GTO, there is nothing in common with CTS aside from the similar platform?
How you can even say what you are saying is unbelievable!
Every company uses common platforms, especially Honda and Toyota. It's the only way to keep costs down.
Give me a break eveyone knows that GM clones cars. Do you mean to tell me that they don't???
A T/A and a Camaro don't share anything????
You are really funny...
-mike
-mike
Platform sharing is not re-badging or "cloning" as you call it.
To me a clone is anything that is essentially under the skin the same vehicle. Which most of the GMs are. Of course the body skins are different, but the engineering and bolt-ons are the same...
-mike
Intrigue has a 3.5L DOHC engine that was not shared with any other division. It also had stability control systems, steering systems and other features not found on other w-bodies. It was far from a "clone".
Stability control is available in almost all GM vehicles now. Yeah they may have tried out something slightly different on the Olds but it eventually found it's way into the other cars or got axed. I believe Oldsmobile was considered their R&D line if I'm not mistaken.
-mike
-mike
The Trailblazer and Envoy really have distinctively different looks, but obviously Isuzu didn't have the money to do much with their version. Oh well, at least it's a good truck.
The Ascendor doesn't have anything to do with Isuzu at all! IT IS A GM with an Isuzu Badge on it!
And good truck???? Haaaa read the Triplets forum on here and you'll see it's far from "good", maybe compared to c.1980s American cars it's "good" but it's far below the reliability and design standards of today, several problems:
Rear Gaskets weren't installed on lisc. plate area
Warping fascias and bumper skins
2nd Row seats that rub against acc. outlet and tear the leather
Can't fold down 2nd row of seats if the front row is in the rear most seating position
Worst angles of approach and departure of any SUV in it's class.
A step backward as far as the 4wd system (part time v. TOD)
Wandering mirror problems
PCM and ECU problems over and over
Electronic Fan-clutch engagement problem
"Oh just turn off the car and back on, that will reboot the ECU" was noted by several people as a fix from the GM 800#
-mike
"worst angles of approach and departure of any SUV in it's class"
Important when navigating city streets!!
No doubt the quality problems did plague this new vehicle, but GM has most of those licked now.
Why put in Low-Range?
Why put in skid plates?
You can get a Mini-van with AWD or a Van with AWD if you want a Soccer Mom vehicle!
-mike
People don't care about angles, they want big cup holders and good looks.
Why bother with skid-plates.
People are all for vanity, they are all lemmings, quite sad.
Why build a vehicle for off-road if it doesn't go there????? Argggg this annoys me to no end, people like this. Isuzu should just build the best off-road vehicles and stay in that niche, cause they'll never compete with the cookie cutter companies like GM, Toyota, etc. They just don't have the economies of scale!
-mike
It's not like the SUV explosion was driven by people wanting to go off road.
Isuzu should have done what Subaru did with the outback, go for the niche market and make a profit, rather than try to be everything for everyone.
-mike
Can You See Past the Disguises? Auto Manufacturers Hope Not
Twinned Vehicles
Steve, Host
"Buick Century, Buick Regal, Chevrolet Impala, Chevrolet Monte Carlo, Oldsmobile Intrigue, Pontiac Grand Prix"
I haven't sat in any of these those, so I don't know how close they actually look and feel.
-mike
-mike
Steve, Host