Toyota Advertising Fees
Currently, I am negotiating the purchase price of a 2002 Camry with a dealer in Florida. I offered him $300 below the Edmunds TMV for this vehicle, and he indicated that Edmunds had incorrectly omitted a $565 advertising charge that dealers in the Southeast US are invoiced for each vehicle. He said that to come up with a true TMV, I needed to add back this fee. At first, I thought this was just another attempt to add profit to the bottom line. However, I looked at Kelley Blue Book and they indicated that there is an advertising fee for dealers in the SouthEast. However, the way it is described by Kelley Blue Book is very confusing. I can't believe that only dealers in the Southeast would be burdened with this $565 charge. Also, I can't believe that Edmunds wouldn't have included this component when their analysts came up with a TMV for this area. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!
Thank you!
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All Yota dealers have Ad fee's, some a little more or less than others, depending on the region. Most of the info site's forget or are not aware of them.
You my friend, are the land of Jim Moran .. and those fee's are legit.
Terry.
Why do dealers breakout advertising fees when figuring invoice cost? I have not seen any other type of retail that charges you an extra fee to pay for their advertising. That is the cost of doing business. And if this fee is charged to the dealer from the manufacturer, it should be included in the base invoice price of the car, not broken out seperately. Because of these fees and toyota dealer "attitude" I decided against buying a toyota product that I was looking at. The dealer wanted about $1,500 more than what I felt was a fair price based on my research. Now I am not a stickler for a few hundred dollars and in fact I bought a vehicle that was more expensive than the Toyota product because I thought it was a better vehicle and I got it $2,300 below invoice and only had to add a small doc fee to my negotiated purchase price.
Bill, TMV from edmunds is over inflated. I would suggest using the buyers offer sheet from carbuyingtips.com. Fill it out using the appropriate costs and start with no dealer profit. Make an offer at that price and see what they counter with. All they can do is say no. Then you can work up from there.
So, basically what your saying is, you won't pay a incurred cost by any dealer in the US ..? And if it isn't printed by Edmunds, Carpoint, etc. It's not true .. right? So, you blaming who here ..?
Do you go to your Vetenarian for a second opinion on a heart murmur ..?
I'm not trying to be smart here, just trying to point out some facts --- I will guarantee, that the vehicle you have just bought, has some kind of Ad fee that has come from the Manufacturer and you did pay it. You paid $2,3 back of invoice, because of rebates and/or dealer cash ..and those were minused from the profit above invoice ...
Like my Grand Dad use to say "a little information is dangerous" -- "and too much is not enough" ... I think, you just fell into category #1.
All do respect ...
Terry.
A few other thoughts:
On the Kelley Blue Book site, it lists the Southeast Toyota advertising fee as $565. I don't see KBB showing any other states with a fee this large. There are other "freight charges" for the Gulf States (MS, etc.), but these are only for $40.
To me, this doesn't make sense. Why would I pay this fee when I can drive a few hours to New Orleans, have a little fun with my wife, and pick up my new car for $565 less. Also, why doesn't IL, CA, NY, or TX have these fees? Also, what would prevent Toyota from providing a trailing credit to dealers in order to help dealers inflate their margins, while creating a bogus advertising charge?
I am going to stick to my guns and offer $300 below TMV. If they don't accept, someone else will!
You are correct that I got such a good deal because of $2,000 factory to dealer incentive. However I had to find that out on my own. Edmunds did not list the factory to dealer incentive in my area, I had to find that out for myself. But once the delears knew that I knew what they knew, the price suddenly dropped $2,000. And I am sure there was an ad fee charged to the dealer that he passed on to me, but what I paid was invoice minus $2,300. I did not see the actual dealer invoice for my vehicle, I got my invoice price from edmunds and other websites. Theses invoice prices were all the same, so i assumed they were correct. All I am saying is that the manufacturer that I bought from included the ad fees in the "base" invoice price of the car to the dealer. The dealer I bought from did mention an ad fee when we first started negotiating, but I kept my eye on the bottom line out the door price and got it to $2,300 below invoice. I do not know if the dealer ate the ad fee or not. I got the price I thought was fair.
I do not understand why dealers cannot understand why consumers balk at paying ad and doc fees. Yes walmart has included an ad fee in the cost of the widget that you buy there, but the price is the price. The price is not price plus an ad fee, plus a fee to pay for the guy that ordered it, etc. New car sales margins are very slim. Manufacturers and dealers have decided to break out seperate fees as a way to try to put more profit in the sale. There is a whole other thread about this in TH. I am not saying that the fees are not a legit cost to the dealer, I am just saying that consumers do not like paying fees that they percieve as a cost of selling a car. These fees should be included in the base invoice price of the car. Also if you read the pricline thread it appears that doc fees range from $45 to $600. Assuming this includes paperwork and getting the car ready to deliver, it should cost the same to do that in any part of the country with a little differnce in labor costs. Why such a big difference?
I am not trying to blame anyone. Just an observation. There is also a big mention about some invoice fees that VW charges. Again if edmunds and other car pricing sites know that a consumer cannot buy a car without paying these "legit" fees, it should list them to add to invoice cost. It just takes consumers off guard when they research and then when they go to buy the dealer has all of these extra fess. They assume the dealer is trying to screw them. It has been mentioned in other posts that toyota and only two other manufacturers still use the distrutorship model to get cars to dealers. These is just another layer of cost and red tape to the consumer. Some respected car dealers on these boards have said that toyota needs to drop this model and move to selling direct to dealers. I agree, and pass the savings on to the buyer. But, sigh, someone is making money as the middleman and it will be hard to take them out of the picture.
I'd refuse to pay, but be prepared to go elsewhere to buy your Camry. Or better yet, buy something besides Toyota. Not all dealers play this stupid game, and contrary to what Toyota would have you believe, other folks (specifically Honda, Nissan, & Suburu) make nice cars too.
hud
Lets get real here for a moment folks. Whether you like it or not, the advertising and shipping fees, whether they are cost of doing business or not, ARE A PART OF THE INVOICE PRICE OF THE CAR.
Lonesome, I understand that you don't like it, I don't either, but you probably aren't going to get a car without paying it. Ok, so Honda doesn't break it out on their invoice, does that mean that you're not paying it?? If the dealer has to pay them to get the car, then guess what? You WILL pay them or the dealer is losing money on the car, and I think we all agree that the dealer should make some money on the deal. Even Mr. Generous at carbuyingtips.com says 3-5% profit is fair, as does Edmunds.
Personally, I think the editors at Edmunds are cowards for not itemizing these fees. In my opinion, all the major "invoice providers" are in a contest with each other to show the lowest price, whether it is accurate or not.
And, Hundrahead, the Toyo Guard is a $600 MSRP item, which when translated into an invoice figure, is only about $125 or so. I'm sure you wouldn't consider paying MSRP anyway, so who cares?
Ed
Ed
hud
Ed
It is becoming more common for a car manufacturer to offer a drinkholder rather than an ashtray and a powerpoint rather than a cigarette lighter (or as in my Windstar, a Cigar lighter). Not only does it save a few cents, I suspect that the majority of the buyers nowadays don't even miss it.
Don't pay. Walk away. This crap will stop real fast if enough people just say no.
Speaking of Toyota add-on's, here in Austin all the trucks have some goofy package added on that adds anywhere from around $600 to $1500 to the MSRP. I forgot what they call it - it's something like the "ToyoGuard" you mentioned but for some reason I think it's a different term. Anyway, it's basically all the VIN etching and pinstripe b.s. but they generally put one or two things in that you'd actually want, like cruise control or a keyless remote. I don't recall seeing an ad fee listed on any of the MSRP stickers. Is that something I'd only be confronted with once I got inside and started negotiating, or does my distributor (which I think is Gulf States Toyota) not charge an ad fee?
In fact, I can't honestly say that I've ever even seen an ad fee on a sticker on a car in Austin, and I've looked at Fords, GMCs, Toyotas, Nissans, Hondas, and Mazdas a lot lately. Maybe your industry knows better than to try to pull crap on Texans.
If you have a vehicle that has a MSRP of let's say, $11,300, and Edmunds or whomever, describes the invoice at $10,200, the invoice will reflect the Regional or National fee of $125 (or whatever it is) .. and the invoice will reflect the cost at $10,325 -- The Gulf states have them, the SE region has them, the Great Lakes region has them .. all of God's children has them.
These figures are based on the advertising programs in effect in the area. Whether it be in mass paper Ad's or regional or national TV programing.
When all the 0% rates came out in October and November, every dealer in the country was affected .. Including Texas. Just ask George W., he too, has to pay it.
Terry.
hud
Priceless.
This is in northern NY......
Will have to ask him about regional
and add fees...........Geo
SE and Gulf States are notorious for loading the cars with Mop N Glo crap. Now.. on to Toyota advertising fees.
Terry is right, they are part of the invoice. Hud, your new Vibe may (And in Daytona probably it was $145 IIRC) and probably had an advertising charge. Since you were at $$ off of MSRP, it was invisible. They do appear on the factory invoice only. And there is a way to tell if it is legit or not. If you are looking at the actual factory invoice, look for a box marked "TDA" on a Toyota or "LDA" on a Lexus. It is just above or below the box for Destination.
What this is, is a glom BY the Manufacturer TO the dealer. This is a fee charged BY (SE)Toyota TO their dealers. And it would be illegal to put these fees on the MSRP. Why? Maybe some of our older posters (this is before my time but I have this collection of older car ads) remember how prices of cars often were higher on the west coast? MSRP prices have to be, per the Monroney act, Uniform nationwide. The advertising fees are a way for the manufacturers to charge a higher price for cars to dealers in markets where it costs them more $$ to do business.
I hope this makes sense.
Bill
On new Tundras....
Check out www.tundrasolutions.com
Bill
add fee. My buddy just bought one and
was grouching because invoice showed
both. Of course AFTER the deal was made.
Then to the F&I guy and got his SUPRISE
fees. But he did get 700 rebate and 2.9%
interest !..geo
BTW: he got his wonderful toyoguard pkg.
but refused mop and glow.........
ME: I would of walked...But he likes toyota
ABT: I agree the carbuyingtips.com site is a little too over the top with advertising, but I think the core information is good for car buyers to read. He deals with some common dealer tricks and scams. I especially like the worksheets for figuring out loan and lease costs and the buyers offer worksheet. Depending on the vehicle, I would run a calculation with no dealer profit or ad or doc fees and make that my first offer to the dealer. All they can say is no, and then you can start offering a few hundred more a little at a time. This worked for me and I ended up buying my vehicle at less than invoice minus a $2000 factory to dealer incentive plus a $399 doc fee. Of course that may not work on an MDX or Odysessy.
Ed
All vehicles must be reported by May 31st and delivered by june 17th.
What store are you in?
Ed
The dealer said he was giving me the car at invoice (which was $10 over Edmunds invoice -- close enough) and using the 2% holdback as his profit (I got to keep the rebate). He did show me what was supposed to be the factory invoice and the $565 was on there.
But, there was a huge, $395 "documentation" fee which I negotiated down to $197.50 (had to walk out to get that).
The final total with all the fees was only a few $'s over Edmunds "TMV" so I said, "what the heck." PLUS I got a $1250.00 Toyota rebate which brought the final drive-out price to a bit below the Edmunds invoice price.
But I was rather perturbed that this fee was not included in the Edmund's price breakdown. I felt like a dork in the negotiation since I thought I had ALL the information and the TRUE invoice price.
Why doesn't Edmunds include this fee? I want ALL the facts!
I think in Ga most dealers have a doc fee around $300 to $400. Again this is a cost of doing business charge and it is great that you negotiated it down. Most dealers print it on the contract sheet so you think that it is not negotiable. I have heard on TH that the doc fee in other parts of the country is only $20. This is reasonable, why is it so high in Ga?
Ed
Portland Oregon dealers. The TMV of an XLS with the options I want is $28,795. The quotes I'm getting are in the low to mid $29s out the door.
I asked one dealer why the the quotes are running $500 to $700 more then I would have expected and he told me that is was due to a $580 per-vehicle regional advertising fee that all dealers pass on to buyers and Edmonds does not included in the TMV. Is this correct or an attempt by the dealer to increase profit margin? Anyone have a feel of what a reasonable dealer margin is on a Toyota Avalon XLS for a special order deal?
The ad fees are legit, and if you read the fine print on Edmunds, they briefly mention them somewhere.
Ed
"Please note that Dealer Invoice is the dealer's cost for the vehicle only and doesn't include any of the dealer's costs for local and regional advertising, selling, preparing, displaying or financing the vehicle. Also, we don't list holdbacks and factory-to-dealer incentives which can lower the effective dealer cost in some cases."
So where exactly on kbb.com are the ad fees?
Ed
No ad fees tht I can see. I tried an Odyssey and a Windstar, no ad fees there either. There's nothing that lets me select a region that I can see, other than when I enter my zip code.
Ed
But if the fees are set by the dealer then you won't know until you go to that store and find out.
If the dealer chooses to add it as a line item to his buyer's order, then I guess that's his call.
Ed
He did not sell me this car, his dealership did.
Thomason made it very easy, and hassle free to buy the vehicle, upfront reasonable price, very honest pull on my trade.
I bought it because of the overall experience and price. It only took me about 4hours all together including F&I, trade, test drive, etc.
That would be like saying don't buy Microsoft because they have been sued for monopolizing the software industry.
Ed
Ed
Does anyone know what is this TDA charge is and does it vary from Dlr to Dlr?