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Dodge,Ford,Chevy-----Who Wins? - II

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Comments

  • zigszigs Member Posts: 3
    I have a 95 k1500 ext. cab Z71. I put a K&N filter in and a HyperTech chip. Didn't notice much difference. Then I looked into exhaust. I hate the duels out the back look because every other truck in the world has it. I wanted side exit. I found Gibson's SuperTruck exhaust. It has two big rectangular chrome tips that come out ahead of the passenger rear tire. What a difference! I removed my stock exhaust and installed the Gibson in less than an hour on my back in the garage. My only complaint is it is very loud in the cab. First day I drove it I actually got a headache. The exhaust sounds great and it's loud. People know when I'm coming because of the unique sound.
    Nothing like an American v-8 with the right exhaust!
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    Congrats on the new CC! Should be a comfortable cruiser on the Texas highways.

    I am not into modifying the stock engines anymore. Been there, done that. For me it's a truck, not a pro stocker.

    If you wanted some off-the-line snap, you could consider a higher stall speed torque converter, but if I were you, I would save my money.

    The exhaust system makes as much sense as anything. I don't think you get very much of a boost with any bolt-ons, short of a whipple, or Ligenfelter 383.
  • f220swiftf220swift Member Posts: 103
    I agree with quad. Not like your truck is a whimp. Sounds like a nice set up.

    Maybe listening to too much performance crap on edmunds. I am currently shopping for a new used F150 2wd and it turns me off every time I go and look at one that resembles a JC Whitney poster truck.

    Good Luck!*****************************************
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    bud light and powerisfun,

    I totally agree. Computers today have taken the fun out of the "mechanics" of an engine today. That's probably the reason why I always have left my trucks stock while pouring money into my bikes!!
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Thanks Quad and F220.
    At 6'8", yes I am very comfortable in the new rig. You should come to Texas, Quad. with this CC, I now finally feel like part of the crowd... :) I'll post a picture somewhere soon.

    I've been leaning toward the same. if you put your foot into, that 350 has plenty of snap. I've had it for 5 days, and i'm still amazed at how strong the Vortec is over the non-Vortec, even in the heavier truck. the only other issue is I put 265's on it instead of the stock 245 tires, which makes my speedo off a little. I thought, get a hypertech, correct the speedo, boost the engine, but hell, its only 2 mph off anyway. Plus I'm getting 16 mpg (2 tanks, highway) out of a 6500 lb truck, with more passing power than my old one. What the hell am I complaining about???? I can't wait to hook the boat up and head for the coast.

    Thanks to all!
  • smcpherrsmcpherr Member Posts: 114
    My 97 F-150 had the tail pipe exit in front of the rear tire stock. Be careful if you have to drive over a blown semi tire tread. I was on the freeway once and due to traffic and construction I couldn't swerve to avoid one and it went under the right side of my truck. It struck my tailpipe and nearly bent it into the tire. The guy at the shop I stopped at to get it fixed said he saw that a lot, and that sometimes the tire hits the pipe hard enough that the pipe gets drug under the tire, which results in the entire exhaust system getting ripped violently out of the truck. Causes severe damage to the rest of the truck. I think this is why Ford quit using this set up. Not that it WILL happen to you, but if you find yourself in a situation that requires you to go over a tire, get it as close to the left of the vehicle as you can. I don't think Ford would be too willing to help you out if your truck was damaged badly because your aftermarket tailpipe was drug under the tire.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    Sobering thought.
  • mozeemozee Member Posts: 12
    Good luck with new CC.I think you getting the 5.7 is a blessing in disguise.I know
    of several that will walk away from the 454 vortec even with 7000+ lbs of trailer.It seems the 5.7HD is underrated to make the 7.4 look worth the money.So GM overrated the 7.4.On paper you'd think the 454 would be so much more,but in the real world,it really isnt much stronger,and it isnt even a grunt motor anymore,so it needs to be wound up as much as the 5.7.I think the 200+lbs you saved in weight makes up for the HP difference in the two and you now have 200+ more payload,which is very important with CC,they are real heavy as you know.I'm still amazed at the vortec5700's power every time I drive one-even more so in heavy trucks like yours,they really pull well and dont die with a load,as 7.4 owners would have you believe.Good luck and get a Hypertech powerprogrammer and a good cat back and go eat some bigblocks!
  • zigszigs Member Posts: 3
    Were there any other reasons that Ford quit using the side exit exhaust on the F-150s. I figured this should have saved them a few bucks producing those trucks. They eliminated a few feet of pipe per truck. Not only the length but the bend to go over the axle. I sure this savings would add up after a few thousand trucks
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    zigs,

    I question whether the side exhausts were a "problem" or more of a liability to Ford. The chances that someone damaging their side pipe is unlikely but it would garner bad press since Ford would and does have the option of placing the pipes behind the wheel. Any lawyer could eat that up-which leads me to that opinion rather than mishaps.
  • edharri3edharri3 Member Posts: 35
    Seems to me that though Toyota has built a lighter duty truck than the domestics, they can't be beat when it comes to quality and durability, as always. Funny, though I hear all the times about Ram,Silverado, and f150 Recalls I must be missing the ones for the Tundra. The domestics view American car and truck buyers as guinnea pigs upon whom they can foist 'production prototypes' so that instead of just investing in more testing so they get things right the first time they can see what problems people come to dealers with on 1st year models and redesigns and then design in changes based on that. Toyota on the other hand seems more willing to invest more in intensive testing up front before models even hit the streets rather than using customers as test mules so that they usually are more likely than domestics to get a car or truck right the first time out.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    Myopic focus in the double post above #239-240 is exactly why I'm glad I got too see for myself, drive the Tundra, side by side with a Silverado.

    http://members.aol.com/sturbridg1/utahtrek.html
  • edharri3edharri3 Member Posts: 35
    Ok You proved exactly what I just said, the Silverado is better for heavy hauling. Do another test and drive them both 50,000 miles instead of 500 and see what breaks. I've heard stories about misalligned steering, Poorly balanced wheels, bad windshield seals, to name a few on the silverado, many on this site. I've looked for seious Tundra troubles, found none.
  • arkie6arkie6 Member Posts: 198
    Note in Quads truck comparison that the Chevy has 4.10 gears and the Tundra has 3.91 gears. Not a lot of difference (Chevy has about 5% lower gears), but it does give the Chevy the advantage off the line.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    3.91 is still pretty close--it's not like the Toy had 3.32 or such.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    can you get a 4.10 in a Toyota? Can you get anything bigger than a 4.7 L?

    My point exactly....
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    Edharri,
    You haven't looked hard enough then. Plenty of problems reported on Tundra. The guy reporting the stuck exhaust valve caused by metal shavings is more serious than any GM problem you've read about, and probably just as rare.
  • rideahdrideahd Member Posts: 3
    I have a 93 Chev K2500 6.5L T-D 4x4 long bed. I am interested in after-market exhaust systems and/or performance chips. Are there any for the turbo diesels, and has anyone had experience with them? Are they worth the money? I've already installed a K&N and had a slight, though noticeable improvement.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    great to see you back KC. Great info, as usual...
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Designer fuels, eh? Sounds interesting........

    So what does the Co-host do? Is it a paying job?
  • gwmooregwmoore Member Posts: 230
    KCRAM, nice to see you back. I've been asking this and no one seems to know. Does Dodge plan to offer an on-demand AWD system like GM's Autotrack anytime soon? I don't understand why they haven't yet seeing that Chrystler was the first to have such a system, in the Cherokee. Thanx.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Roc,
    Community Leader paid too :) Actually, I have the responsibility of keepiong order in those two conferences - freezing dead topics, steering folks to the right information, removing "illegal" posts, etc.

    gw,
    Still up in the air as to what Dodge will do wioth the 4wd system of the new Ram. Personally, I would hope the heavy duty trucks would at least maintain the system they have, or better yet, go to a manual option like the Ford Super Duty trucks.

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    kcram,

    Does it pay enough for a new Ram?? ;)
  • rideahdrideahd Member Posts: 3
    I have a 93 Chev K2500 4x4 Turbo diesel long bed
    running stock 235/85 R16 tires. It is a work/play
    truck that is used for hauling, towing and off-road (hunting, camping, exploring, etc. on roads that are usually rough and washed out.) As I don't believe in driving slow, I've bottomed out the heavy T-D engine more than once! I am not a
    rock-crawler or heavy off-road enthusiast, however, I am looking for good shocks. I am willing to spend the money on Bilsteins or Ranchos, but if Monroe or Gabriels will work, that's great! I don't mind a stiff ride (I was born and raised in pickups) as long as it handles well. Any suggestions? Thanks!
  • chevyck1chevyck1 Member Posts: 37
    I own a chevy 1500, I'm planning on selling it due to oil usage, and misfiring at 12k miles, dealer told me to go to hell. Question, any Dodge or Ford owners that can tell me on their experiences with oil usage, and rough idle and general problems on Dodges or Fords? Thanks. Just trying to make my decision.
  • davids1davids1 Member Posts: 411
    If the thing only has 12,000 miles, I would be looking into my local lemon laws. Call your state Attorney General's office for information. If nothing else, maybe this will get your dealers attention.
  • chevyck1chevyck1 Member Posts: 37
    I have reviewed the law for my state, and it says the problem must cause the vehicle to be in NOT-driveable condition, and by the sounds of it, it has to happen more than twice,(like a blown engine or tranny). I also have a gas mileage issue, and they told me that it falls within the "range" specified by GM. I get 15, on a good day on the highway empty of course. But I will contact the Attorney General's office anyway, just to get an accurate opinion. On the oil usage, I guess it has to throw more than 2 quarts per thousand miles, no matter how many quarts I tell them it uses, they tell me it doesn't throw enough under GM specifications, so what I recollect, is you have to have a hole the size of a dime in your oil pan to get their attention, I am totally disgusted with GM. Thanks for the advice.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Roc... payments, maybe - down payment, no way LOL

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    kcram,
    I hear you!

    Chevyck1,
    15 isn't outrageous. Two quarts of oil per thousand is-if true.
  • gwmooregwmoore Member Posts: 230
    According to Automotive News the next generation Ram will discontinue the Cummins and utilize a Mercedez diesel. Here is an excerpt:

    "It is unclear which Mercedes engine will be used. Mueller said a common-rail diesel injection engine might be the choice. These engines are designed for passenger vehicles and range in size from 2.0 liters to 4.0 liters. But a manager with Dodge powertrain development in Auburn Hills, Mich., said his team has been working on packaging the Mercedes' MBE-906 diesel engine in the Ram. The MBE-906 is a six-cylinder, 6.4-liter, turbodiesel. It is a heavy-duty truck engine available in DaimlerChrysler's Freightliner and Sterling brands. The MBE-906 is larger than the Cummins engine and offers between 190 and 280 hp."

    I know nothing about Mercedez diesels other than they have been making them forever and everything they make is super heavy duty. But I wonder how technologically advanced a prospective engine for the Ram would be, i.e. will it match up against the Duramax and the next generation Powerstroke? The article also stated that the move to change from Cummins to Mercedez is at least partially based on cost savings. At any rate, this is a very interesting change of events, especially since the most commited Ram fans are the Cummins fanatics (myself included). Go see the article at www.autonews.com - "Mercedes diesels to power next Ram" (March 6, 2000).
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    That was a good link. Good article. Not terribly surprising. Could be sad for the Cummins devotees.

    Does a Dodge owner want to wear gray flannel? What happens the when tinted window rolls down, and the driver says, "Pardon me, but would you have any grey poupon?"

    I hope the Cummins finds a home. For a while, it was rumored you would be able to get one in Dodge, Ford or GM.

    It Mercedes persists in de-Americanizing Dodge, where will that small but loyal group of truck buyers migrate?

    This is a Dodge problem. Chevy owners will flock to the Izuzu Duramax, because the previous GM diesel can't be mentioned in the same sentence as the more esteemed Cummins 1SB.

    Perhaps Cummins is the victim of its own success. It really is a very costly propostion to own and maintain one.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Quad,
    I have the easy answers to your questions. Ford would drop International like a hot potato and pull in the Cummins motor.

    The Blue-collar and Cummins fans would flock to Ford especially now that the Ram guys claim the Super-duties are look-a-likes anyway. It would be a mistake for Daimler but they'll probably make it. Many former Dodge engineers have left the company and a recent Time article found that the company is dominated by the Germans.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    Rocs,
    I think you could be right, but Navistar has sold lots of engines, and should have a pretty good following of its own developing, no?

    One reason for liking the Navistar is that most owners will say it accelerates more strongly. It's bigger too. I guess the good part about the Cummins is when your truck retires, you take the engine out and use it in your next one.

    Dominated by Germans? Well, kind of sobering I guess. They know how to make things. But can they understand the American truck buyer? I'm skeptical too.
  • dodgeramdodgeram Member Posts: 202
    If you go to car-truck.com they say that the source is Jurgen Shremp head of dc.

    Chrysler Dodge Jeep Edition
    BUZZ
    NEWS
    REVIEWS
    FEATURES
    INDEX



    MERCEDES DIESEL FOR NEXT RAM?

    Warning: This column is often based on rumors and information derived from
    unsubstantiated sources. We do not guarantee the veracity of any of the information
    contained in this column. For news and in-depth features please visit the News,
    Features or Reviews sections of this site. Read on at your own risk.


    Automotive News is reporting that Dodge will use Mercedes
    Benz diesel engines in the next generation Dodge Ram truck.
    Their source, DC Chairman Juergen Schrempp. Hour's after
    the story was posted , DC released the following statement.

    Title: DaimlerChrysler Statement in Response to Future
    Diesel Engine Applications for Dodge Ram

    In our pursuit to offer the most powerful, durable and fuel
    efficient diesel pickup truck in the market, we owe it to our
    customers to look at all alternatives. At this time, a
    Mercedes-Benz diesel engine is being considered in addition
    to the Cummins engine that is currently

    offered in Dodge Ram diesel pickups. However, we are very
    early in the process of determining which engine -- or
    engines -- will be best suited for future Dodge Ram trucks
    and have not made any final decisions. We have enjoyed a
    strong relationship with Cummins for many years and we
    hope to continue it.

    So which diesel are they "considering?" The Automotive
    News report adds that a Dodge power train manager told
    them that "his team has been working on packaging
    Mercedes' MBE-906 diesel engine in the Ram."

    The engine seems like an obvious choice. In the US the 6.4
    liter diesel engine is used in both Freightliner and Sterling
    trucks. The water-cooled in-line six features 3-valve
    technology (two intake, one exhaust). The electronically
    controlled turbocharged engine uses charge air cooling to
    improve performance.


    2300 rpm and a 520 lb. ft. @ 1200rpm. At its top rating the
    mill puts out 300 HP @ 2300 rpm and 860 lb. ft @ 1400
    rpm. It would also be a good match for the Mercedes Benz
    W5A800 transmissions recently listed in Dodge literature.

    So will Dodge switch from Cummins when the next Ram
    shows-up? In my first column about the DC merger, I
    predicted that we'd be seeing MB diesels in Dodge Trucks.
    Of all the possible synergies, it seemed like the most
    obvious. It still does, why go out and buy something that
    you already build in-house?

    As far as the notion of offering two diesels . . . I just don't
    see it. There's no advantage to the move. It would only add
    complexity to the line-up and double the parts and training
    Dodge truck dealers would need.

    That said I hate to see Cummins go, they build a world class
    product. Cummins has been a great partner to Dodge. The
    relationship began in 1988, since then they have played an
    important part in Dodge's success.



    WHO WILL IT BE?
    WIN THIS HAT

    Our friends at Dodge sent over an interesting item today
    titled "Who Will be Our Next NASCAR Driver?"

    Auburn Hills, Mich. -- Keeping up with the latest racing
    rumors? Dodge figures NASCAR racing fans keep up to date
    on the latest news and gossip. But how informed are they?

    Dodge will launch an internet-based poll of NASCAR fans to
    find out who they think will be the next driver to be named
    to take the wheel of a Dodge Intrepid R/T in the 2001
    NASCAR Winston Cup season.

    Fans will get their answer soon enough -- NASCAR team
    owner and Dodge Motorsports development partner Ray
    Evernham will host a 9:35 a.m. press conference this Friday,
    March 10 at Atlanta Motor Speedway to name the first of
    two drivers to race the Evernham Motorsports entries.

    Dodge is conducting a major radio and internet promotion
    to reach fans who can then log on to Dodge's website and
    show off their insider racing knowledge. The first 30,000
    respondents will receive a commemorative Dodge
    Motorsports hat as a token of appreciation.

    END

    The release confirms my report that Evernham has already
    signed his drivers. We know "Awesome" Bill Elliott is
    definitely on-board. He will definitely be Friday's
    announcement.

    The second guy is still a mystery. Evernham has often stated
    that his second driver will be a young gun. The leading
    contender in the NASCAR press has been Casey Atwood.
    However if you believe the Buzz, Atwood hasn't spoken to
    Everham until last week.

    Two weeks ago an inside source told me the deal was done .
    Does this mean he's out of the picture? That fact that was
    allegedly confirmed by the friendly note I got from Atwood's
    PR flak after I mentioned him last. He informed me that
    "Casey has NEVER spoken to Ray Evernham or ANY
    Dodge representative NOR HAS HE SIGNED WITH
    ANYONE FOR THE 2001 WINSTON CUP SEASON."

    If not Atwood, then who? Jay Sauter and Stacey Compton
    have also been mentioned. Compton's Dodge racing
    connection (he drove the #86 RC Dodge last year in the
    Craftsman Truck series) would probably make him the
    contender among those two.

    Regardless of who you think it is, make sure to head over to
    the Dodge site right now. You don't have to be right to win
    one of the 30,000 prizes, but you only have until the 10th of
    March to enter!


    SPREAD THE BUZZ
    Click on the button below&#
    If you go to car-truck.com they say that the source is Jurgen Shremp head of dc.

    Chrysler Dodge Jeep Edition
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    MERCEDES DIESEL FOR NEXT RAM?n to eMail a link to this column to a friend.



    Have a comment on this column? Heard a rumor you're
    wondering about? Do you have questions about future
    DaimlerChrysler products? Click here to ask the Buzz
    Watcher


    March 7th, 2000


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  • powerisfunpowerisfun Member Posts: 358
    DaimlerChrysler: Maybe M-B Engines, Possibly Part of Mitsubishi, Definitely Appealing



    Mar. 7, 2000-- DaimlerChrysler announced on Monday that the automaker was considering Mercedes-Benz diesel
    engines for use in Dodge Ram pickups, Reuters reported.

    "In our pursuit to offer the most powerful, durable and fuel-efficient diesel pickup truck in the market, we owe it to our
    customers to look at all alternatives," DaimlerChrysler said in a statement.

    But Cummins Engine Co. -- which currently provides diesel engines for the Dodge Ram trucks -- announced today that
    it would continue to provide all diesel engines for DaimlerChrysler's product.

    "I spoke to [DaimlerChrysler President] Jim Holden last night in Auburn Hills, who confirmed that Cummins would
    remain the diesel engine option in its Dodge Ram pickup truck," said Cummins Chairman and CEO Tim Solso.

    The announcements followed an article printed in Automotive News that quoted Mercedes-Benz manufacturing
    spokesman Enrico Mueller as saying the M-B engines would begin with the next generation of the Ram pickup, due in
    2002 as a 2003 model.

    According to the story, one in five Ram pickups uses a Cummins diesel engine.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    HEY. I reported here at Edmunds about a year ago that Mercedes diesels were going in Dodges. I heard from a diesel pump shop owner back home, who goes to lots of tech meetings where they get trained on future pumps and learn what kind of overhead they are going to need.

    Did ya'll not believe me then!!???




    sorry, needed some self-fulfilment today...
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    You're the man, Tex.

    I think it's kind of exciting. But they probably should not have messed with the Dodge buyers. Germans build cars the way they like them. If you put a Mercedes diesel engine in a Mercedes SUV, and then re-badged it as a Dodge, I wonder how many of the drivers stepping into it would come from Dodge trucks? Not many.

    So what they risk, is the loyal pool of ownership, trading on the belief they will attract enough customers from other segments. The Dodge buyers could be interested. No doubt it's a good engine. Question is, will they put too much German influence into the style, making the Dodge cab into a MB? That would be a mistake in the American market. In my opinion, of course.
  • gwmooregwmoore Member Posts: 230
    You're forgetting that most Dodge owners are not brand loyalists. Most of the loyal Cummins-Ram customers were driving Fords or GMs before 1988 when Dodge started using the Cummins. Dodge truly attracted owners that wanted the best powerplant available. So if the Mercedes diesel is the best, or near the best, they will keep Ram owners coming back. I think it would be a lot different if it were Ford or Chevy using the MB engine.

    Just as Cummins had a great reputation for diesels, anyone who looks into it will see that Germans have more experience with diesels than anyone. Look at German tanks in WWII, those diesels were schooling our gas tanks. Mercedes has great engineers. Germans generally over-build things. I think most pickup owners recognize those things. So you can bet a MB diesel, if placed in a Ram, would be heavy duty. Question is: how much power/torque compared to Duramax/Powerstroke?, how efficient is it?, and how expensive will maintenance be?
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    no doubt MB has incredible engines. My dad's business was asked to do a rebuild quote on a set of MB engines that were in a 60 ft yacht. they were v8 engines, something like an 6 or 7 inch bore and they were over 1000 hp!!! incredible performance.

    the problem with them was the rebuild. if and when those engines went out, it would have been over $100,000 in parts and kits alone. a comparable Cat or Detroit wouldn't cost 1/4 of that.

    So yes, currently MB builds great performing and extremely expensive engines. hopefully, maintenance costs won't be an issue other than fluids.

    I disagree with gwmoore on the brand loyalty. true, Dodge pulled over a lot of Ford and GM drivers over the last 6 to 7 years on the Cummins track record. but after this amount of time, I see a lot of those people who've had no probs,( and even some folks that had a few probs) swearing by Mopar products, not Cummins. I think Dodge has a following faithful, almost as devout as the Ford/GM.

    I think the Cummins has very big following as well. I know of several former Chevy drivers that traded in for a Cummins cuz they loved the way the engine pulled a load. they could care less what was the grille ornament, the Cummins under the hood was their only reason for buying. so folks in that class will be alienated.

    I just think that Dodge has a bigger following than Cummins does, so they won't be hurt.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Ask any Dodge owner--did the Cummins convince you to buy or not? If they had their own or a lesser brand--they would still trying to get out of the doldrums.
  • crazywomancrazywoman Member Posts: 14
    The Cummins has a great reputation, but I am buying the whole truck, and the Ford won me over. We'll see about the Powerstroke.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    One problem with the MB engine that has been rumored (and that's all it is) - the redline is too low for light truck use - that engine stops at 2300 rpm. The Cummins has an in-gear governor of 3200, the Powerstroke is 3500, and the new Duramax wiill be between 3500 and 4000. You won't get anywhere soon with a 2300 redline.

    The MB engine in question is listed on the MB website under Commercial Trucks; I found it a year ago when the rumor first started. This engine challenges the Cat 3126, and the larger Cummins ISC - it's rated as high as 280 hp and 800 lb-ft - too high for a 3/4 ton pickup.

    But that's strictly my pair of pennies.

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    No knock on Mercedes but that engine isn't much of a match for the 3126 from Cat. There are four versions of that motor; two of which crush the Mercedes in hp: 300 and 330 with similar torque at lower rpms. It also scores better mpg in class.

    crazywoman,
    I hear you. That's the reason I have gone almost exclusively Ford the past few years for my firm. My point was that the only superior attribute of the Ram IS the Cummins! Take that out of the Ram and I think Dodge/Daimler are making a huge mistake at judging teh American truck consumer: personal and commercial. I know Merceds can make a motor but at what sales loss can it be beneficial to do "in-house"?

    Reminds me of the GM diesels......at least they had to bail out and get Isuzu to design theirs for them.
  • gwmooregwmoore Member Posts: 230
    I still have to say that Ram/Cummins owners, as a whole, were not Dodge Ram owners prior to the Cummins. My family, as an example, never even considered a Dodge before the Cummins. We always had Ford or Chevy, but we never felt any loyalty to either. It certainly wasn't the ridiculous stiff suspension or poor brakes that made us buy that first Ram/Cummins in '89. And there wasn't much about that first Ram/Cummins that we liked except the engine. Now, our '97 Ram has been a good truck, as well as a good engine. And my '97 Dakota has be a great truck. However, one or two good trucks and an excellent engine built by someone else (Cummins) will not make us loyal to Dodge. Most Ram/Cummins owners I talk to (on the farms/ranches, in the campgrounds, etc.) are not loyal to Dodge.

    Now, on to Mercedes. They are a pretty smart company that is obsessed with their reputation. I don't see DC putting a new diesel in the Ram that doesn't at least do as well as the Cummins. More than likely, IF they do put a MB diesel in the Ram, it will be one heck of a good engine and be top of the class. Mercedes has the resources to assure that, and they can't afford to tarnish their reputation with anything less. If DC does put a new engine in the Ram that is the top of the class (whether it is Mercedes, Cummins or a Yugo), you're crazy if you think that will chase Ram owners away!

    Look at Chevy. Now that is a good old boy, traditionalist group of buyers and they are welcoming a JAPANESE engine like it is the Second Coming! If they can keep their buyers with an Isuzu diesel, then I'm sure Dodge can keep their buyers with a Mercedes diesel (as long as it performs and doesn't cost a fortune). Besides, if there is such a thing as loyal Dodge customers, they probably want one of the new Hemis instead since that would be a true Dodge legacy.
  • gwmooregwmoore Member Posts: 230
    I'm not that savvy on Diesels, and I doubt I will ever understand the difference between HP and Torque (trust me, I've had my fair share of physics and mathematics in my educational background and had it explained to me by the best), but it seems that big commercial applications do not demand the HP, so the engines are set up purely for torque. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the engines be altered to kick out more of either HP or Torque, depending on the application? And since MB has never tried to use their heavier diesel engines (non-passenger car) in an application where HP is important, doesn't it seem logical that they could make some big improvements in that category if they need to?
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    gwmoore
    To keep away from the 'tech talk', No, you don't just trade HP for torque, or vice versa.

    in fact given the same rpm engine, if you raise the torque, you raise the horsepower with it.

    Torque is tricky to understand because the number that is always advertised, rarely means anything significant. peak torque is just the amount of work it can do at one specific RPM point. the torque curve is what really determines how an engine feels when you stick your foot in it.

    hope i didn't add anymore confusion,

    Don't worry, the MB diesel will be a monster. Really, at some point, engines are going to be hot enough to pull our trucks in half.

    and I wouldn't call Isuzu diesel 'Japanese', when GM is the majority owner of the company. Isuzu has been competing with Cats and Cummins for years in the big big industrial apps, and are no slouch.
  • powerisfunpowerisfun Member Posts: 358
    Just thought I'd take a crack at explaining the difference between HP and torque to you and anyone else that might be interested. This is not meant to be condescending, I'm a physicist and a performance enthusiast, so I like to think I know what I'm talking about here, and the best way to tell how well you know something is to try to explain it to someone.
    First of all, let's get the math/physics out of the way by noting (as you probably know) the equation:

    hp = (torque * rpm)/5250 (torque in lb-ft)

    The torque is itself a function of rpm which is a characteristic of a particular engine displacement (bore, stroke) and the tuning (cam choice, head choice, timing, exhaust choice, etc.).
    If you call rpm "x" and the torque "f(x)", then
    horsepower = g(x) = xf(x) (forgetting about the units conversion constant of 1/5250 for now). Okay enough math.

    From a practical "feel" perspective, torque and horsepower are really the same thing. What confuses the issue is peak horsepower vs. peak torque. So ignore those quantities for a minute.
    If an engine has more torque at a given rpm than another engine, it also has more horsepower there (the above formula tells you so). Most people don't think of diesels as having a lot of horsepower, but it's true, they generate more horsepower than even the best gas engines...at low rpm. It's just that with diesels the torque falls off fast at high rpm and by the formula, that means the horsepower goes down fast too. It's not often said this way, but when someone wants pulling power they want to have a lot of horsepower at low rpm. By the formula, the ONLY way to get that is by having high torque at low rpm. Race cars want the most horsepower possible regardless of rpm, so the easiest way to get it, again using the formula, is to have an engine that's able to rev to screaming rpms (8-10000). Even if the torque isn't particularly high there, as long as it's reasonable torque, the horsepower will be high.
    To sum up, the best way to think of the difference is that they're not different. They happen to be two different ways of describing the same thing by using two different physical models.
    To me the more informative model is the torque model because if someone quotes a peak horsepower number by saying "This engine has 290 horsepower" it's very important to ask "at what rpm?". It could be a truck engine at 4800 rpm or it could be a sportscar engine at 7500 rpm. You also don't know how high the horsepower is at normal driving rpms. However, if someone says, "This engine has 410 lb-ft of torque", the rpm matters, but not nearly as much because the torque function or curve is fairly flat so if he's talking about 3200 rpm, it's still fairly close to that at 2200 rpm and 4200 rpm and even down to 1200 rpm. So from that one number, 410 lb-ft, you can get a rough estimate of the horsepower at all those rpms by just plugging in to the formula.
    Anyway, hope that helped in some small way.
    Later,
    -powerisfun
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    gwmoore,

    Thank God that Power tried to explain it before I had a shot!! It reminds me of the "chicken versus egg" debate.
    I have two classic examples of rpm/torque differences in my garage. One is a 93 Harley FXR Super-Glide and the other is a 96 Honda Magna. (I'll leave the BMW out of it since the Harley is a crude version of it.)
    My magna displaces 750cc(45 cubic inches) which is nearly half of the Harley output of 1340. The Magna is stock 75 hp a@7500 rpms versus the Harley's 60(maybe) @4000rpm. The torque difference is felt in first gear where the Harley wants to crawl without gas--serious torque at a low rpm--virtually at idle @1000 rpm. The honda would stall out unless the gas revved the motor to around 3grand--at the least. The small flywheel and low torque demands on the Magna to require higher rpm for equal power to the Harley. At OD--this figure reverses itself as the Harley will top off losing power while the Magna is hitting it's sweet spot.
    Rpm dictated that Harley would pull strong from first but die in fifth whereas the Magna proved opposite.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Back to the Cummins discussion.....

    I know that Daimler will place an exceptional motor in the Ram but Cummins is no sloucher. Diesel fans should enjoy the future.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    Good examples from both Roc and Power.

    I think Power said it best when he said diesels actually have more horsepower than the best gas engines. AT LOW RPMs. absolutely correct, but rarely thought of in that context.
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