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Ford Escape Hybrid



  • f111df111d Posts: 114
    Return on investment? I don't believe this 75%, much less in the winter in Ohio. It will be a much greater % drop than gas or diesel. I've fought with batteries of all kinds in the winter and no one makes a battery (especially affordable) that performs.
    How many folks are going to be able to keep Hybrid up to stuff, mechanics have trouble enough with the latest OBD II vehicles. What's it cost you every time the CEL (check engine light) comes on? And how often does it get diagnosed correctly the first time? How many people on a tight budget get the car checked with the light on, if the car still gets them from A to B?
    Then we add the new electric part of the equation, the learning and training curve is much higher for the Hybrids and will be for sometime, than compared to Common Rail Diesel which is very similar to the gas systems now.
    It will be bad enough when the industry switches over to the 42v system soon for all vehicles in preparation for the Hybrid to be standard or to save money on commonality. Besides the common rail diesel would be a much better fit for Hybrids. Ie Diesel electrics been around for many several decades.
     You can get more diesel per barrel of crude with less energy spent to refine, so I'm told.
    And over on the Futura board a lawyer noted that the California CARB has embraced the Common rail. So all the stuff I've been reading must be fairly close about how clean it is or soon will be.
    Another EPA change would be nice, SUV get much better MPG, but someone would really complain about there profits! The common rail would easily do that with even better performance but another industry would then complain about profits.
    I've finally half figured out OBD II to half trouble shoot it myself.
    What I don't trust is the numbers/baseline for clean air, humans I'm sure would survive on best on no pollution, but how real world is that in the next 50-100 years?
    No I won't buy a Hybrid, but put a 2.0 - 3.0L common rail diesel in good bang for the buck drivers car and I'm in the market. Mercedes just introduced a 320 with diesel option how can they and not Detroit? something rotten in the US or is my CEL on again?
    Sorry for the long, but I'm do consider myself the caretaker of my little portion of the earth sorta semi-tree hugger, we still do have to eat. Cats and O2 sensors are not cheap! Besides I finally got the hang of OBD II troubleshooting with the sharing help from another car buff web site.

    Paul Echelberger
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    Don't blame all of this on Detroit. Remember, they're playing catch-up when it comes to hybrids. Well, at least Ford is. GM is off on their own playing with hydrogen for some reason.

    Wasn't the Hindenberg filled with hydrogen on its fateful day? ;)

    I too would like to see more diesels but I think people in this country are a little scared to adopt them right now due to the fact that diesel isn't on every corner like gasoline is. I think if more gas stations would add a diesel pump, more people would be willing to try a diesel out.

    VW has been using turbo diesels for years with good results (i.e. people like them). However, and I don't know the numbers so I'm guessing, the gasoline versions of their models probably outsell the diesels by a large margin.
  • The Escape Hybrid is the only SUV I would consider due to its potential gas mileage. People, I do know how I am going to be able to give up almost 300 miles on a 1/2 of tank. Its a real shame diesels arent more prevalent in the USA. I am sick and tired of people complaining of high gas prices. Stop driving those SUV pigs.
    Rant over.
  • gheimurgheimur Posts: 88
    However ,I live in NJ and have a daughter that works in D.C, a daughter that goes to school in Boston, and a summer house in upstate NY. While my wife has a 2001 Escape which is an outstanding car, 50k mile on it already, I was forced out of necessity to buy a Ford Expedition to handle all of the above plus vacations. Nothing else can handle it(the stuff doesn't fit). It would be nice if the Expy came with a diesel...however the 6000k increase plushigh cost of oil changes would not realize the savings any time soon. There have also been times where diesel is significantly priced higher than regular.
  • f111df111d Posts: 114
    Man I feel for you, your right on the ragged end of sanity and then you have to try a vehicle with usable space! It's amazes me with all that's offered still nothing that fits our needs? Is the Expedition offered in 2wd? Growing up with farmer friends with 4wd trucks those were the whose vehicles on icy snow covered roads, you could never predict which direction you could go down the road.

    Say how about a Sprinter Van? Daimler's offering to the US (full size van market) with only 2.7L MB diesel & 5 sp ATX.. My nephew manages a Fed Ex in PA and their Sprinters are in the 21 mpg range. Good use of the engines torque range evidently.
    One more story that got my attention of this vehicle and the new common rail diesel. Last Christmas a blind student (Ham also)from University of Toledo was telling about a Sprinter (configured as bus ). He commented to the driver "what this have in it", "everytime you take off it sets me back into the seat hard"? He told me " he couldn't believe it was a diesel, quite, no smell and it's acceleration feel couldn't possibly be a diesel. Not sure what the oil capacity is on this motor but I'm sure the drain interval has been bumped up.
        My point you don't have to have a 6.0 or 7.3L unless you just have to have a BIG trailer? My son has a 95 E-350 7.3L that he can merge onto a freeway at 30 mph (on ramp) and next thing I know I'm in the back with a half dozen big rolls of carpet and he's in the left lane @70 mph. Not to mention his big %%#$ grin. Now I know why likes that noisy diesel and 15qts every 5000 miles. He also helps friends pull stumps/etc out of the yards. And he scouts for deer in farmers fields, they are use to that agricultural sound he says. KIDS.
    Trying to get my son to go to a freightliner dealer to check one out. Jeeze dad those things are too tall and weird looking????
    I'll be quite now!

  • maxx4memaxx4me Posts: 1,340
    Here's my delemma. My 626 may have less than a year left. Today, I looked into the '05 Escape, which is the basis for the hybrid. I was impressed on many fronts. The legroom for the driver was fantastic, the headroom great, the seats were comfy, and the view out the front was commanding. The Escape hybrid will have Mazda's 2.3 liter (Mazda 6) engine, which has been wonderful to date. I would like my next car (which will likely run me some serious money, to be as versatile as possible, and I would love to own a hybrid to hedge against the upcoming spike in gas prices, which we all know will never come down once they go up).
    Here are my four top choices of things to do. Puting more money into my 1996 626 is not an option, since I think it has been a terrible car and will be money wasted.
    1. Buy a second (I already have an '03) Pontiac Vibe. Who can argue with having a second "Corolla" in their driveway. It is fun to drive, is reliable, and is pretty darn versatile. The '05 will be out in August, and has some minor upgrades which are of interest to me.
    2. Buy a $10,000 Kia Rio Cinco wagon since it is cheap, has a great warranty, and has 0% financing. This is merely a throw away car, designed to last 4-5 years until some more hybrids come off the drawing board and into people's driveways. It also gives me a chance to see how reliable the Ford Escape will be over time.
    3. Buy the Chevy Malibu Maxx I have been eyeing for 6 months. This is undoubtedly the king of versatility, has great V6 gas mileage, and is very comfortable for tall drivers like me, and on and on....HOWEVER, recent electric steering issues have cast a cloud over the reliablility of yet another of the General's cars.
    4. Buy the first year Ford Hybrid. Keep in mind that I have never bought a US company car and owning a Ford scares me to death. Couple that with the fact that half of my worthless 626 is failed Ford parts, and you see my problem. Of course I need to see the hybrid in the next few months to see if Ford made it easier to change the oil myself, than does Mazda, by leaving those stupid aprons off of the Escape. I also need to see the price of the Escape, since I have little stomach for spending $25+k on any vehicle.
    The Ford rep told me that she had heard that the price would be very close to the current '05 model. If that is true, I bet the Escape hybrid will sell like hotcakes since their main competition will be a $30,000 Accord hybrid, and a $35,000 Highlander hybrid. Any way you cut it, an Escape hybrid at $25k (or less) with a Mazda 2.3 liter engine sounds pretty sweet.
    I look forward to all your suggestions. One thing I would like to know (as a US auto-phobe): is the electric engine in the Escape from Toyota, or is it a Ford invention? I'm guessing the latter since it took Ford so long to get this thing to market and work out all the bugs. Two reps today gave me polar opposite answers, so I am still in the dark. OK: let's brainstorm....
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Ok let's do process of ellimination. I say NO to #2. While there is a long warranty, it doesn't mean you won't be visiting the service shop every weekend like a few I know are already doing. And if it's not an enjoyable car to drive, then why bother? I saw your better off buying something used, then a Kia for that matter.

    As for the rest, let me meditate on them...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    There are other good wagon/hatch choices out there that you didn't list. What about a Mazda3, or a left over Protoge5?

    A WRX if you want to have fun, or an Outback Sport if you're practical? The new Legacy also looks sharp.

    The Ford Focus wagon with the 2.3l PZEV engine is peppy and clean, too.

    Vibe/Matrix, or even Scion xA or xB for the price are good values.

    Lots of options out there in small wagons.

  • maxx4memaxx4me Posts: 1,340
    my list has shrunk: the Kias are out since I don't fit in any of them. I sat in the Rio, Spectra and Optima, and fit in none of them.
    Juice: the list you gave me are cars for short people. The Mazda 3 is a two seater plain and simple. I even got in a 6 wagon over at the Patriot Center this weekend, and it is way too low to the ground; very hard to get in and out of, and has lousy gas mileage.
    No, sticking to the list above, the options are the Vibe (new or used), the Maxx with a clean bill of health from the service department, or taking a chance on the first year Escape Hybrid. Right now, the Escape has the upper hand since gas prices will be escalating again next month, and probably will never come down again.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Outback is one of the taller wagons, the new one has 8.7" of clearance. That should be easy to get in and out of.

    It's 180 lbs lighter and the 2.5l now makes 168hp so it should be more efficient. Plus they have a PZEV model, wish we could get it here in MD.

    I like the Maxx (you'll probably recognize me from that thread) but I'd like it better if it were less hatchback and more wagon.

    Another Vibe? Dunno, I always thought each car in your fleet should serve different purposes. I have a Miata and a Subaru Forester.

  • maxx4memaxx4me Posts: 1,340
    well, again the problem with the entire Subaru lineup is that the driver's legroom is poor (with the exception of the new Forrester), have very poor legroom for the rear passengers, and have low cut roof lines which are not good for getting in and out of from the seated position. They may be high off the ground, but the door cuts are just too darned low on the sides.
    If people simply want 2 seaters, they should ask their favorite car manufacturer to stop puting in back seats at all. It simply is wasted space, since most of these cars (with the exception of the Vibe, or the Maxx) don't afford any room for a normal sized human being in the back.
    As for the Escape, I may call in a favor with someone who works at Ford to see if I can swing a deal on a Hybrid; or find out if I'm going to have to wait in a very long line to have the opportunity to wait in a longer line to get one.
    Anyone have any thoughts on the Escape's 2.3 liter engine? I thought it might be the Mazda 6's, but it appears based on the horsepower, that it is a special engine Ford made for the Escape Hybrid.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    The engine is the same as the Mazda3,6. it's the Duratec23, but depending upon the vehicle, it receives different horsepower. IN the ranger for example, it makes more torque, than horsepower for hauling. While in the Mazda3-6, it makes more HP than torque, to help with passing acceleration which is the priority.

    The only difference is in the PZEV label, which means that it has a few more emmissions controlling items, to help with pollution.
  • erikerik Posts: 21
    Remember when Bill Ford said Ford will make tons of hybrids and then backed away from that statement. Ford and the other domestic car companies are a generation behind the Japanese Hybrid technology. Does Ford's Hybrid system even work? Maybe they are buying Toyota's or Honda's system and putting it in the Escape. Diesel and the common rail injection system are the way to go. The Jeep Liberty will arrive this fall with high 20s low 30s mpg and a great VM common rail engine. The people that buy hybrids are smart, college-educated liberals who want to make a statement about the environment. Blue collar workers who blow their paychecks at the live-dancing clubs and their full-size pickups will not be interested in a Hybrid. They will spend more money for a "hemi" or V-8, but they wont spend more for a Hybrid. Ha ha
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Try the new Outback, the wheelbase is an inch longer and it's higher up, easier to get into.

    Average sized adults can fit, maybe really tall ones will feel squeezed.

    Though cars with unusually large back seats, if that's what you want, include the CR-V, Element, Scion xB, and Maxx.

    Relax, erik, tell us how you really feel. LOL

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That's pretty steep. The market might tolerate that in the short term, but once a few options are out there, I dunno.

    States like MD give up to $2000 tax incentives, or 5%, whichever is less. On an Escape we're talking $1250 or so. But that doesn't nearly offset the premium.

    On a $40k SUV like the RX400H, you get the full $2000 credit and Lexus is saying the premium will be $3000, so the net premium cost is just $1000.

  • The deduction is for Federal Taxes and as is $1500 for 2004; however, several states (Colorado being one) offer tax credits that can be up to $4000+/-.
  • miniacminiac Posts: 3
    Ford says it developed this system all by itself and that it expects several patents out of it. Then, a few weeks ago, in AutoWeek, Ford anounces that it will be buying it's Hybrid technology from Toyota. I would interpret this as saying that Ford does not have faith in it's own design. Can anyone clear this up for me? Will the Escape technology be a one-of thing? Will all other Ford hybirds get a Toyota technology?
  • maxx4memaxx4me Posts: 1,340
    I'm encouraged by the article. First, Sanyo makes the battery. Anyone who has ever owned Sanyo electronics knows they build indestructable stuff at a very low cost. Secondly, the price is based off of the 4 cylinder, which puts the price back in my range. If my local dealer will work with my super-duper buying service, I will be able to get the Escape hybrid for $22k out the door.
    Juice: since you are my neighbor, do you know if VA is giving tax incentives like MD is? I know I can use HOV here, but what about the cash???
    In regards to the Toyota technology, the 2.3 liter engine in the Escape hybrid will put out 135 HP; when mated to the electric power, it will put out 155. Mazda 6's 2.3 liter engine puts out 160 HP. Is the 2.3 in the Escape some form of that "Mazda" Duratec engine?
  • "Escape hybrid will put out 135 HP; when mated to the electric power, it will put out 155"

    HSD implemented in Prius shows that it has power efficiency of 1.91%. It has 76hp engine and performs like a 145hp ICE only car(more responsive). If you apply that to Escape hybrid, it would perform like a 257hp ICE only car!. BUT, a big but, Escape hybrid's electric motor is only 70KW(Prius had 50KW). Electric side of Escape hybrid is a bit under power, therefore, power efficiency should be lower than 1.91%. Ford is claiming that it will perform like the 200hp V6 Escape. This make the Escape hybrid power efficiency at 1.5% which is totally achievable. Escape Hybrid might even outperform the V6 model.

  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Toyota may not have had that big a role in the development of the FEH
    (Ford Escape hybrid) after all ? - snip - Ford Disputes View That Its Hybrid Is a Toyota: nist_levin&sid=azDp8xWV5rsU
  • HSD power efficiency compare to ICE only car is 191%, not 1.91% =D


    It sounds like Ford escape is a full hybrid much like a Prius. It seems, the design is technically the same, developed seperately, but Toyota patented it first years ahead. If Ford play the cards right, it can achieve the same efficiency(191%) as HSD. ES has 70KW electric motor but HH and 400h will have 120KW electric motor.

  • maxx4memaxx4me Posts: 1,340
    hmm, I deduce the exact opposite when I read that article. If Toyota is under the hood, I say...bring it on!!
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Ford bought some items from Toyota, NOT because they didn't have faith, BUT if someone out there already has experience with a particular item/issue/component, why not just buy (pay royalties) and save time in bringing the product out.

    Automaker's do this with various items/options within vehicles, and buy techonology from one another. There's numerous items Toyota has bought from Ford, and vice versa. Just in this senario, it's media spin to cause some attention... You can take it either way, in a positive way, or a negative way. But because it's Ford, of course the media is going to jump on it.

    So far, there's no power figures for the 2.3L Hybrid system published just yet. What IS publically known is that it'll produce V6 like performance, and as previously mentioned, I wouldn't doubt it if it were a BIT quicker than the V6 version.
  • miniacminiac Posts: 3
    I agree 100%. I had not seen the article pinted out by rfruth. The more Toyota the better.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    ANT14 has it right. Ford did license some technology from Toyota but only so they could modify it themselves to work in the Escape. From what I understand they had to do this because Toyota does own the patents on a lot of the hybrid technology already and Ford had to legally obtain it somehow.

    IIRC I don't think many parts were involved either. It sounded like it was mostly software to me.

    The Bloomberg link above explains it better than I can.

    I love what Lutz had to say about the hybrid. That coming from a guy who stuck a V8 in a stretched Cavalier and proclaimed it an icon makes it ever more of a joke!

    So when should we expect to see that hybrid RAV4 with a Chevy badge on the hood? :)
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,565
    Sounds like a lot of envy on Lutz's part. If the hybrid Escape was so easy to do, then why hasn't GM introduced a hybrid small SUV a few years ago? What is GM waiting for, their fuel cell program? Fuel cells may be the ultimate future technology, but I would bet you won't see a commercial fuel cell powered vehicle for at least another ten years.
  • Do you guys know if Mazda will come out with a Hybrid Tribute in 2006?
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    So far nothing has been said. Same goes for the Mariner.

    I don't think demand will be high enough for either of them to merit a "special" hybrid model anyway. Probably costs too much to design the whole package, interior/exterior/drivetrain, for all three.
  • But I thought Tribute & Escape are essentially the same insude (except stiffer suspension on Tribute). So, it shouldn't be a problem. What is a Mariner?
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