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Comments
Hybrid vehicles are here to accomplish at least two goals. One, lower fuel consumption and two, reduce environment harming emissions. Diesel engines accomplish only one of those goals and, while being much better at number two than they used to be, fail miserably concerning the other.
I'm not particularly concerned about either right now but it's worth noting that that HUGE difference does exist between the two formats. Sometimes we get so caught up in fuel mileage that we forget the big picture.
___Actually, the latest Honda 2.2 L iCDTi not only performs like its ICE counterpart (far better then any Hybrid available to date), it has emissions ranging from TLEV all the way to better then SULEV (it meets and/or exceed Euro IV) depending on what particular emission product you are looking at. CO2 and CO are lower, HC is higher, PM is higher, and NOx is higher. Overall Euro IV is ~ equivalent to a LEV rating which is slightly cleaner then the majority of the automobiles on the road in the US today. The Honda Diesel beats the Euro IV so I cannot say exactly where it stands but at a minimum, it meets Euro IV.
CO measured in g/mi.
TLEV= 3.4
LEV = 3.4
ULEV = 1.7
SULEV = 1.0
PZEV = .1
EURO IV (Diesel) = .5
HC measured in g/mi.
TLEV= 0.125
LEV = 0.075
ULEV = 0.04
SULEV = 0.01
PZEV = 0.004
EURO IV (Diesel) = .1
NOx measured in g/mi.
TLEV= 0.4
LEV = 0.05
ULEV = 0.05
SULEV = 0.02
PZEV = 0.005
EURO IV (Diesel) = 0.25
PM measured in g/mi.
TLEV= 0.40
LEV = 0.01
ULEV = 0.01
SULEV = 0.01
PZEV =
EURO IV (Diesel) = 0.025
___If they shrunk the iCDTi design to a 1.0 - 1.5 L to drop performance of whatever it would go into to Prius I/II levels, the Honda iCDTi would probably meet Euro V specs which is an ~ US ULEV equivalent.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
While I admit to being very intrigued by the Escape Hybrid, all these smug Holly wood millionaires tooling around in hybrids tick me off. The truth is, when you consider all the issues you cannot make economic justification for buying a hybrid, even at the prices Honda and Toyota have been dumping them and Ford will soon be dumping them.
You have to have money to burn to buy a car just to make a statement, be it some fancy exotic car, huge SUV, or even a hybrid. For the rest of us working stiffs out here who don't sing or make movies, don't have millions of dollars in the bank, have never been addicted to alcohol or drugs, and have never been convicted of a violent felony or perverted sex crime (unlike so many of the Hollywood elite) we have to buy the most car we can get for the best price we can get, and its hard to justify the relative cost and risk of a Hybrid.
Dennis
i'll add this on too, is there that much pollution being emitted out of any late model vehicle? a lawn mower is much worse.
Also, when hybrid vehicles are running on electric alone, or stopped and not running at all, they emit ZERO emissions. Something a diesel and/or gasoline engine will never do. SULEV, PZEV, etc. gasoline engines are on the roads here as we speak but still aren't as clean as a hybrid no matter how many numbers you post.
It's good to hear that a diesel engine has been invented that will save fuel, run as clean as it's gasoline counterpart,and offer the same performance as said counterpart. I'm all for it! I'll probably never buy one though.
___In the US’ infinite wisdom, we haven’t gone to low sulfur diesel (yet) which is almost a requirement to get the emissions down to Euro IV/V specs. By the time we do get LSD or ULSD, the EPA specs won’t even allow a Euro IV spec into the country in many locales We are speaking of ULEV rated automobiles, not a spewing smokestack 1980’s and early 90’s anything that will be allowed in those same states until they die. Take a look at the Toyota Sequoias and Land Cruiser if you want to [non-permissible content removed] about the most unclean automobiles allowed in the US right now. The Honda Diesel is cleaner then those things by quite a margin. Even the 04 Toyota Echo only meets a CARB LEV spec. So how does a Honda iCDTi stack up in your opinion now?
___A similar notion can be mentioned about most std. ICE’s in the country. An 04 Prius is barely a SULEV in any high sulfur fuel state like Illinois (except for Amoco/BP Premium unleaded near me) whereas with low sulfur gasoline as available in California, they are truly 10/10 on the EPA’s green Guide scale. What about any of your vehicle purchases in the last 10 years? Did you use a Green Vehicle Guide? Do you think most automobile purchasers in the states even care? This is where cleaning the air will come from but the automobile manufacturers don’t want to spend the extra few hundred to make all their smaller automobiles PZEV.
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-TOYOTA-Prius-04.htm
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-FORD-Focus-04.htm
http://www.zevinfo.com/en/gv/vsearch/cleansearch_result.asp?vehic- letypeid=16
___With that, what are you driving today? When you go out and purchase your next vehicle and the diesel is a LEV/ULEV and the Hybrid is a SULEV but costs $2 - $5,000 more, which are you going to purchase? Side by side, same vehicle, with the Diesel having similar performance and similar fuel economy? You know darn well what the average US automobile purchaser is going to buy. All you have to do is look to Europe for real world purchasing decisions between Hybrids and Diesels.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
As it turned out a lot of people on this thread are concerned with the fuel savings the Escape HEV will bring, but soon forget the other purpose of the vehicle. I jumped in to point out that the big picture was being missed.
You ended up answering your own questions What about any of your vehicle purchases in the last 10 years? Did you use a Green Vehicle Guide? Do you think most automobile purchasers in the states even care? by posting all the acronyms and numbers referring to emissions in your last two posts. No one is going to take the time to read all of that. Most people want to get in and drive and not care what is coming out the back end. The general knowlege is that cars are cleaner now than ever before, and that's all people want to hear. This hybrid craze going on right now is all about saving fuel. When/if gas prices go down so will hybrid sales because people don't care about emissons.
Anyway, the fact still stands that a hybrid is and always will be cleaner than a diesel while offering comparable fuel economy. Zero emissions (Albeit some of the time) can't be beat. It makes no sense to switch to diesel if hybrids are accepted by the public. That doesn't make them less appealing though.
Personally I'd buy a diesel if given the choice between it and a hybrid. I'm not your total opposite but close.
I enjoy a good discussion as much as the next guy but I'll admit that I don't know enough, and definitely don't care enough, about emissions to continue on this path. Plus this isn't exactly the thread for it either and we'll probably get bumped by the host sooner or later.
___If you don’t care about cleaning up the air or saving on fuel costs, then what is posted below would be the only relevance to you imho.
___And hopefully you see my point about a LEV/ULEV based automobile (whatever it is including an Escape) in a Diesel form that costs $2,500 to $5,000 less vs. the Hybrid’s PZEV. What would you, your friends, the masses, or even I purchase? The LEV/ULEV based Diesel, I am quite sure. Here is the crux of the matter. There might be 100,000 Hybrid’s with ULEV to PZEV ratings sold in the US today. There will be ~ 17 million other vehicles w/ overall LEV ratings at best that will be purchased this year with far more emissions and far lower fuel economy. Here are just a few reasons for this The Corolla or Civic costs < $15K and a Camry/Accord costs < $17K relatively loaded whereas the cheapest Hybrid costs > $20K. The std. Civic/Corolla and Camry/Accord also have better acceleration then the Hybrid’s.
___As for not reading or not understanding what is posted, so be it. Then it all comes down to price as emissions don’t mean anything as most just want to get in and drive.
___Might I add that PZEV rated emission automobiles are available in many non-Hybrid automobiles? Sitting at the light and burning the equivalent of .2 - .4 oz of fuel a minute in a PZEV hardly makes a very expensive Hybrid’s autostop worth it for cleaning the air. In some more smog laden areas, a PZEV actually cleans the air it drives through! There are NOx spikes that haven’t been totally controlled on an initial startup even if the Hybrid’s ICE is already warmed up! When the 42 V systems finally arrive, the automobile manufacturers can even add autostop to our non-Hybrid and PZEV based ICE’s if that helps. I use it to save a small amount of fuel but as far as lowering emissions, hopefully the PZEV explanation will help most understand that the emissions are so low that it really doesn’t matter.
___PZEV is not a ZEV. Even electrical power plants have emissions so that is how CARB created/derived the SULEV std. which is just one part of the PZEV std. In other words, the emissions of the average power plant to produce the electricity to take an all electric vehicle a given distance is compared to the emissions of a PZEV rated automobile and its emissions to drive the same distance. This comparison allows a company to rate their automobile as a PZEV.
___Finally, if you haven’t read the Hybrid forums, I am a not a Hybrid proponent by any stretch. Even though I own one and have received fuel economy you wouldn’t believe if I told you, they are overly expensive, overlay complicated, and don’t receive the fuel economy to pay off the increased initial costs in most cases.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___I also have to add that Diesel’s aren’t all that they are cut out to be either although I would take one over and above a Hybrid if Honda placed an even smaller super Diesel in a Civic, Fit, Insight, whatever for a much lower price. These new Super Diesels will probably never meet the emission specs that the std and hybrid ICE’s are capable of today but LEV/ULEV type emissions aren’t that bad considering that is better then all the cars and trucks on the road today here in the US. The PM however is loaded with complex carbon chains that are supposedly cancerous although I don’t see the whole continent of Europe nor the US given all the fuel the truckers use in their dirty diesels dying from that dreaded disease. In other words, it is probably overblown by those doing the studies possibly,? The new emission standards require so much lower PM from the diesels that are on the road today that it can only help clean up what has already been emitted if the trucking industry also is forced to meet the new emissions standards. CO and CO2 emissions however may never be bested by a std. ICE in a Hybrid or otherwise. I just read this weekend that VW has increased the thermal efficiency of the diesels they are designing to almost 45% which is so far beyond even the best Atkinsonized ICE. This kind of thermal efficiency is almost unbelievable!
___As for longevity, the new super diesels are running some very high pressure injection systems and I don’t think you will see 100’s of thousands of miles from them like you used to just because of those extremely high pressures? 200,000 miles? Probably not a problem but 500,000? I have my suspicions that the injectors will need to be replaced long before that amount of miles have been accumulated and the injector systems aren’t that cheap. Cheaper then a Hybrid’s pack, yes but they are possibly > $1,000 to replace IIRC? I hope a TDI member will come in and straighten that statement out if I erred.
___As far as cost and fuel economy, you bet the new super diesels are the way to go but who knows if we will ever get the chance to own them here? It appears as if CARB is beginning to back off on their emissions demands to exclude diesels for sale given the evidence of vastly reduced CO and CO2 and lower costs but we shall see?
___And to bring it back on topic, Ford’s European diesels are good but they cannot compete in terms of performance or efficiency against the latest all aluminum blocked Honda designed iCDTi from my understanding. Since Honda is selling the Pilot/MDX motor to Saturn for its VUE, maybe Ford could purchase the Honda Diesel for the Escape for a European release first?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Finally admitting that is much appreciated. Thank you.
The next step is to state your goal. What is it?
It would appear as though being cost-effective and clean is what you choose to support, with increasing MPG being very very low on the priority list... hence the vigorous support for Focus PZEV. Is that correct?
JOHN
___Welcome back my friend? How is that $26,000 + automobile doing nowadays receiving just 45 - 50 mpg? Have you finally learned to drive it properly with all the tips the Insighter’s have posted around the net for you?
___And what about all of those poor souls with fully loaded Focus PZEV’s and $10,000 + to spare for gas I guess they must be enjoying their 8 - 9 second to 60 automobile in their luxury leather and heated seats, tilt and telescopic wheel, power sunroof, 16” alloys, adjustable seats, tachometer, and an even larger vehicle. And the kicker is they still have enough $’s leftover to drive for 150,000 miles for free in their PZEV rated automobile with today’s gas prices! Do we really have to go through all of that again? That sounds like a very good reason for supporting the Ford Focus PZEV given that many more can afford it vs. the $27,000 (as of late) 04 Prius that far fewer can? Ford has some of the solutions but their implementations aren’t quite hitting on all cylinders just yet however
___Then of course there is my $10,000 automobile that gets me to work and back receiving almost double the mileage that you have been receiving as of late doing the same but who am I too say which automobile was the right choice? If it didn’t cost $10,000, I would still be driving the Corolla and would still be receiving the mileage you are with even longer range just to pass up that many more gas stations At far less cost as you can well imagine
___And not being a proponent of hybrids has been my stance for I believe 3 years now? Until Hybrid’s pay off in terms of their increased initial cost paying for their fuel savings, they are not a smart choice by any stretch?
___Now what were you asking again? Was it diesels not being clean or cost effective but will be ~ LEV/ULEV rated and receive close to similar mileage as the Hybrid’s of today driving even larger automobiles for less cost? Like that Honda Accord Saloon with the 2.2 iCDTi that receives just a touch under the Prius’ combined yet meets Euro IV specs and has a 0 - 60 of a normal midsize car which is ~ 20% faster then your 04 Prius. Imagine that diesel in an Escape. V6 power? You bet. > 1,000 # towing capacity? You bet. Far cheaper then the expected Escape HEV price? You bet.
___Let’s hope Ford can make enough on the Escape HEV to pay for its development all the while figuring out what Diesel from Europe to run in one when we finally do get LSD here. They may have an even more profitable small SUV to sell and that even more people can afford possibly? Sounds like a win-win to me? Why do you resist?
___Then again, Diesels may never meet an SULEV standard? If so, well at least they will be cleaner then most of the other automobiles on the road at this very moment Especially in the Toyota and GM SUV and Truck segments.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
That long statement (multiple paragraphs) fails to answer the question directly, it just repeats the same stuff you've posted over and over again without a clear conclusion.
How about being explicit about what you wish to achieve?
WHAT IS YOUR GOAL?
Please keep the answer concise, just one sentence.
JOHN
Toyota, Honda and Ford are testing out this new technology and selling it at a loss or at best at no profit. I guess we should feel fortunate their their are techno geeks who are into this stuff and greenies trying the make a political statement buying these cars while the technology is perfected and allowing the manufacturers a learning curve so that they can eventually make money. I just wish these Guinni Pigs did not act so smug.
In the mean time, for the rest of us working for a living and using our cars in the real world if you want to reduce emissions there are a number of cars our there that produce produce practically no emissions. If you want to save fuel, a diesel would be a way to go. This technology is being perfected also.
If I remember hearing correctly, the Hybrid battery pack in the Toyota is warranted for 8 yrs or 80k (something like that). I use my car for work. In about 3.5 years I would be off warranty, which is pretty scary for expensive new technology. Not a worry for the typical millionaire drug addicted Hollywood felon imposing their political views on the rest of us. Big worry for a working class guy like me who is just trying to get by.
> trying to get by.
You are *NOT* the target market anyway, so it is a total NON-ISSUE.
The intented buyers are those with income to spare, the people that are currently purchasing gas-guzzlers.
The misunderstood intent is quite common. People are under the impression that hybrid technology is expected to rapidly REPLACE every single vehicle model produced. That is *NOT* the current objective.
In reality, the goal is to OFFER the hybrid system in every vehicle model by 2010. By then, hybrids would have been on roads in the US for an entire decade and mass-production would have helped to drive costs down.
There is nothing to worry about.
JOHN
-juice
I've talked to Ford dealers and they expect to sell the Escape Hybrid at MSRP and no rebate. That will put the Escape at a $6500 premium compared to a conventional gas Escape. Technological bargain? Yes. Will it ever make financial sense? No. $6500 buys a lot of gasoline even at $2.00 a gallon. Increase in price for an Escape will never equal the savings created by higher mpg.
I still hold hope for the Jeep Liberty Diesel.
> savings created by higher mpg.
There it is again, implying the cost of the vehicle won't ever come down.
New technology is expensive when it first becomes available and drops as its popularity grows. Not acknowledging that is not objective.
JOHN
While not official, several sources indicate $27,000.
So.
Those buying the first hybrids are gladly accepting the extra cost.
After all, there aren't enough available to fulfill the passive purchaser anyway.
The current market is only for those that want to help establish the infrastructure.
Once mass-production begins (that's at least 500,000 per model per year worldwide), then the story will be different. Right now, we are still in the early stages.
JOHN
quote john -Those buying the first hybrids are gladly accepting the extra cost. After all, there aren't enough available to fulfill the passive purchaser anyway -end
Is the passive purchaser the one who evaluates cost as well as emissions?
Most all the pros expected the monster-size SUV craze to continue on for a few more years, since they also expected the price of gas to remain cheap for years. Both of those near-term predictions were wrong. So naturally, I wouldn't put any faith in the mid-term ones.
All I know is that the deployment of HSD to the others models on vehicles in that Toyota/Lexus offers will continue. The pace at which that will happen is a mystery. 2 or 3 models per year has been announced, but the volume hasn't.
In the computer industry, it typically takes about 3 years for high-volume production facilities to catch up to unexpected extreme product shortages.
JOHN
Dennis
If you're basing your pricing argument on dealer information you might want to get a second opinion. It's already been established that the pricing will most likely be in the $23,000-$25,000 range which is a premium over the I4 Escape (as mentioned above). If you add options such as the NAV system, leather, etc. you might see a sticker of about $27,000.
Just for fun, go to your dealers and tell a sales person that you want to place an order for a 2005 Mustang, Five-Hundred, or Escape HEV. Please take a camera with you so you can post pictures of their blank stares and the image of you with three heads reflecting off of their eyes or a piece of glass behind them.
The order banks for all three are open and there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to enter one for you. 99% of them won't know what you're talking about though and that's just one reason why you don't trust dealer info.
The only place $23,000 to $26,000 range was mentioned was in an article by David Kiley in USA Today.
What other SUV obtains 25-30 combined mpg? Although, why buy one if only 2WD is needed? Passat Wagon will obtain 38 mpg highway and Jetta Wagon 47 mpg highway. 4WD Escape will have lower mpg than the 2WD.
The new diesel 4WD Liberty is expected to obtain 21 mpg city and 27 mpg highway, not even close to the Escape Hybrid.
Escape Hybrid will have the highest mpg and lowest emissions of any SUV when introduced.
That is a common MISCONCEPTION.
In reality, it is SUBURB driving that is best. But since the EPA doesn't list that as a category type, people assume city to be everything non-highway. And then of course, highway isn't always highway either. People driving the daily commute on a "highway" will encounter speeds even slower than in "city".
"Suburb" is defined as 35-50 MPH driving with only a few occasional stops, quite different from "city" driving of 5-30 MPH with lots of stops.
JOHN
Someone else here obtained information that the premium would be over the I4 model and not the V6. I belive the quote came directly from a high ranking Ford official but I don't know where the link is. Since the I4 model is priced at about $20,000 and the premium is rumored to be $3500 you can see where I came up with the price range.
I was questioning your sources because employees of Ford dealers are not Ford sources. If you obtained the info elsewhere let us know where it came from so we can determine whether it's credible or not. That's all I'm asking. No need to get defensive.
I can't see Ford starting the pricing at $27,000 unless they're crazy. A Fully loaded model would be priced in the low $30's if that's the case. OTOH they might do it to curb demand due to the low production volume and keep dealers happy at the same time.
This is RIDICULOUS! How is this a misconception? There is no commonly accepted standard for suburb driving. Share your sources of suburb driving defined for the purposes of fuel economy
Is this your source? If it is, O'Dell didn't say the price came from anyone at Ford. It seems he's just speculating just like the rest of us.
If it's not your source do you have a link? A lot of people here and on other forums would like to know the price.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-05-13-ford-hybrid-suv_x.- htm
This one is more of the same. Just speculation.
The $3,500 above an I4 model makes more sense because they are really just adding the hybrid system to a base 2.3L (Atkinson cycle) I4 and not the V6.
The fact is 35-50 MPH driving with only a few stops is the best type, regardless of what kind of label you put on it.
JOHN
(That was already stated!)
It's because the MPG difference is so significant.
JOHN