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Phaeton TDI, is it possible?

cowgyrl13cowgyrl13 Member Posts: 16
edited March 2014 in Volkswagen
I was just reading a review on the VW Phaeton and noticed that the Euro folk will get a V-10 TDI, but there was no mention for the States. I know there are costly certifications, but do they apply to an engine or a vehicle/engine combo? Reason I ask is, if the V-10 TDI is being offered in the Touareg could it be offered in the Phaeton? I might think of planning for one if that were the case...


  • argentargent Member Posts: 176
    A TDI Phaeton for the European market is entirely likely; in some Euro markets better than 50% of top-spec BMW and Mercedes (7 series and S-class) are sold in diesel form. That reflects different European economic conditions, including the fact that some countries levy registration fees/taxes based on CO2 output (i.e., fuel economy) and that diesel is often substantially cheaper than gasoline.

    I think it's VERY unlikely that such a powertrain would come here. First, diesel is no cheaper than gasoline here, and has a much greater stigma associated with it -- so its sales appeal seems minimal. Second, and probably more importantly, emissions is a hassle. Even if it's possible to carry over EPA certification from a different vehicle if the powertrain is the same, that might be hampered by the fact that the Phaeton is classed as a passenger car, while the Touareg is a truck.

    There's the looming emissions standard problem, as well. Euro3 and Euro4 emissions standards have _separate_ allowances for petrol and diesel, especially in the area of hydrocarbon emissions. U.S. EPA standards do not, and the ability of diesel engines to meet the next generation of federal standards (even with low-sulfur fuel that we still don't have) is a major question mark.

    I just don't see it happening.
  • cowgyrl13cowgyrl13 Member Posts: 16
    ...but I can dream a little, no? It is so hard to think of the Touareg as a truck I guess. I'll just keep my fingers crossed on the TDI. I would personally feel better about having to fill up less often mostly for conservation reasons...
  • argentargent Member Posts: 176
    It is hard to see a lot of these chi-chi SUVs as trucks, but that's how they're categorized. Lots of reasons for that -- emissions and fuel economy standards are more generous for trucks, and trucks/SUVs over a certain gross weight are not required to have EPA fuel economy ratings (nor are they counted in CAFE) because they're considered commercial vehicles.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    In addition to the 5 liter V-10 TDI in the Touareg, they are now offering a 2.5 TDI (5-cyl) in Europe.
    That one would be working hard in the 5500 pound Phaeton, but it would get great mileage!
    However, if you can afford a Phaeton, operating cost probably isn't your #1 worry.

    My Beetle TDI is smog legal in California, but it gets worse mileage and has less power on US fuel than Canadian fuel. Does anyone know if that's just due to the lower sulphur in Canadian fuel, or is there some other difference?
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Rather than the heavy steel Phaeton with the V-10 TDI, have you seen the new Audi A8 with a 4 liter V-8 TDI twin-turbo? It reportedly goes 0-100kph in 6.7 seconds!
    It will handle better and get better mileage.
    Although the interior of that 4-seater Phaeton is to die for!
  • nedzelnedzel Member Posts: 787
    None of the tdis will be available in CA, nor in several eastern states (NY, MA, etc.). As a result, two of the largest possible US markets for a Phaeton TDI, CA and NY, would be off-limits. The Phaeton will already be a low-volume vehicle. The tdi would be lower yet, even if they could sell it in CA and NY.

    So, no, I don't think the Phaeton tdi will come to the US.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    CA is requiring cars to be available today that are not cost effective and banning cars that are available today that offer solutions.
    As to CA emissions laws and the the states that follow them I am thanfully living in a state that has more reasonable and intelligent people in the government branches.

    If you live in CA write your legislator and demand diesel efficiency.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    There is no reason to think VW would not bring over the TDI Phaeton just because it won't be available in all states.
    The Phaeton was not created to generate a profit.
    It has only 3 purposes in life:
    - push public perception of VW "upscale"
    - showcase VW's considerable technical expertise
    - create marketing buzz
    The car doesn't even have to sell to do this ... it just has to sit on the show-room floor and get some press.
    It will definitely accomplish task #1.
    The V-10 TDI accomplishes task #2.
    And as the past chairman said, its not about selling lots of luxury cars -- the Phaeton's goal is to sell more V6 Jettas!
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I don't know if a Phaeton V-10 TDI would sell more Jettas but I do know that VW is good at making a car that sets on the showroom floor and does not generate profit and it is already offered in the US, it is called the Passat W8;)
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    You're right. I can't believe how much dealers will gouge for this car (is there a waiting list?)
    In Canada, these cars are CDN$54k.
    The first one I saw in the US on a dealers lot had the VW pricing in the window: $39k USD
    Beside it was a strip with a "dealer allowance" that pushed it up to almost $46k USD which at the time converted to $72,000 Canadian.
    Why do you have to pay CDN$18,000 more in the US for the same car? (That's about US$12,000)
    I'm not surprised they're not selling well!
    Apparently it was created for the demand in Germany. The Passat V6 was stealing market share from the Benz E320, and the Passat W8 was created to steal sales from the Benz V8. I've owned Mercedes V8's and Passats in the past, and I think the Passat looks better, and is on par for handling and quality. And service costs less.
    But I haven't checked out the new E-class yet...
  • franklinwolffranklinwolf Member Posts: 5
    WOW!!! What a beautiful car. Car buyers like me who are looking to step up in luxury cars can't help but be impressed. And, the FWD vs RWD debate is moot since car has AWD. The lines are smooth yet understaded.The V6 is fine for me. Reliability has been an issue w/ VW lately according to Comsumers Reports. So, I may choose to lease and not buy for no longer than the warranty(if test drive is good). I hope it has alot of headroom since I need it. I looked at the '04 Maxima but skylight turned me off. I'll wait for the Phaeton and the new Acura TL(cheaper) that come out this summer. Acura RL comes out next year and I can't wait. My Toyota Avalon is on its last legs.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    There's the 150 bhp 2.5L V6 TDI in the Passat in Europe also.
  • nedzelnedzel Member Posts: 787
    franklinwolf. The Phaeton weighs 5000+ lbs. That's right, it weights 800 lbs more than an MB S-class. With a V6, it will be downright slow.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    The 3.2L V6 in the Phaeton is FWD only in Europe IIRC.
  • franklinwolffranklinwolf Member Posts: 5
    I recently read that although VW will make a V6 Phaeton which is FWD, it will not be available in the US. Only the V8 & V12 AWDs will be marketed here. This will increase the purchase price to American shoppers and will no doubt drive some customers to other brands whose pocketbooks could handle the cheaper V6, but not the higher line models.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    The reason is that Americans want cars that go like stink when you flatten the gas pedal to the floor. That's why most mini-vans are 200 HP now.
    But the funny thing is ... they are so slow on the road. I guess they suck so much gas that the owners can't afford to enjoy the power! (how ironic?)

    The V-10 TDI Phaeton will be a great car, but I'd rather have the V-8 TDI Audi A8 (that has been on sale in Europe for a while). Even though the engine is smaller, the reduced weight of the aluminum body/frame means better handling, performance and fuel efficiency.

    But with 5500 pounds, the Phaeton will be a great luxo freeway cruiser! (They should have called it the VW Fleetwood ;)
  • 300eguy05300eguy05 Member Posts: 39
    That is a lot more than the A8...Why?
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    The A8 is all aluminum.
    Even so, it is over 4000 pounds.
    The VW is basically a steel version of the A8 (same suspension, drivetrain ... VWs standard "platform sharing").
    But using steel bumps the weight.

    But if they ever hold a luxury car demolision derby you know which car to pick!
  • 300eguy05300eguy05 Member Posts: 39
    The Phaeton is beginning to look like VW's emulation of the 90's S-Class. The steel version just sounds stupid in my opinion. I don't quite understand where VW is trying to go with the Phaeton. It is a lost cause. It is going to be terribly slow and bulky. Why people would choose it over it's competitors is anyones guess. It is a beautiful car in and out. But the weight is a huge turn off.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    I agree ... its a beautiful big PIG of a car!
    It makes no logical sense, except (as Piesch said) it was created to improve the image and sell more V6 Jettas.

    But if you're self employed and can take advantage of the tax break on pig-mobiles, it may make sense to your accountant.

    If I lived in Boston or Montreal I'd prefer to drive a tank like that, too!
  • doctoro1doctoro1 Member Posts: 9
    but no cigar,
    Stick to cute and peppy!
    If you want big and strong,
    buy an Audi.
    Beetles,Jettas,Golfs, are good cars for the money.
    But the Passat is treading into Audi territory, and this monster is going to get swallowed by the new Audi line coming out.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    So start your "collectibles" now! ;-)

    The next Passat might look like the Phaeton. So eventhough the Phaeton won't be around soon, its "super expensive" image actually helps to boost the future Passat's sales. The future Passat may no longer be a modified Audi like the Phaeton & is a super-roomy giant Jetta like the transversely-mounted-engine early '90's Passat so it can no longer swallow more than 6 cylinders. But this time w/ the help of the sophisticated Focus-type rear suspension designed by the Focus engineers, the next Passat should kick the Phaeton's [non-permissible content removed].

    The Passat's "4-star" interior is plush enough! Who cares about the Phaeton's "6-star hotel" interior if the car can only steer/handle/ride mediocrely? Besides, this is not a reliable Japanese car.
  • fish8fish8 Member Posts: 2,282
    Do you own a VW?

    Also, I believe your username says it all!!!
This discussion has been closed.