Subaru Crew: Suggestions for Subaru

bluesubie

Doesn't Patti have an assistant helping her pass Suggestions from this board to Product Planning? Lots of stuff to sift through here. ;-)

-Dennis

ateixeira

Eric: you are officially Knighted as a card-carrying member of the On The Fence Club (OTFC). )

Yeah, Dennis. They should just send Product Planning to meet with us directly!

-juice

p0926

Just chiming in here but I always thought that the Japanese compensated for hanving smaller displacement engines by increasing the number of valves per cylinder. While that works fairly well for producing HP, it's less effective at creating torque. Hence the old adage "there's no replacement for displacement".

-Frank P.

Edit. But wait a minute... I thought the advantage of using a smaller displacement engine was suppose to be better fuel efficiency? So now we're back to the basic question: how does GM get better MPG? I would think that the smaller engine would be more efficient unless it's being rev'ed to the redline.

nygreg

are GM's advertised mpgs to what people actually get?

Greg

locke2c

quote: The port design and flow characteristics of their cylinder heads must be outstanding.

hehe

-c

paisan

With the loads of low-end grunt, I bet the gearing can be made to get better milage? Just take my SVX for example. On the highway I get 28mpg @ 80mph, cruising at 2600-2700rpms, with AWD and 245-45-16 tires (I corrected the milage and speedo for the lower profile tires) and with my stock sized tires I was getting 28-30mpg doing the same stuff.

SVX = High torque and highway gearing

-mike

ateixeira

Doesn't the Corvette get something absurd like 28 mpg on the EPA highway cycle?

The 6th gear is *extremely* tall. That is a good example of how gearing can make good numbers. It's probably chugging along at 1200 rpm on the highway.

Funny thing? The same car requires a 1-4 skip shift feature. Why? Because if it went 1-2-3 in the EPA tests, it would be a gas guzzler.

So disable the skip shift feature, and you have the world's most efficient gas guzzler. Talk about oxymorons....

-juice

locke2c

Computer Aided Gear Selection is evil. Fortunately CAGS is easily bypassed by accelerating hard in first gear.

-Colin

rsholland

that factory navigation systems will be as commonplace as A/C within 5 years. Therefore I hope that Subaru will offer this feature, at least as an option, if not standard, on every model they sell here.

Bob

locke2c

I think you're wrong. Auto climate control has been available for much more than 5 years, and it is still not widely adopted. True, few luxury models do not have it standard, but using your example above I do not see either of these happening to US domestic Subarus.

I bet the JDM models have them both, though.

-Colin

ken_from_nj

think bob meant air conditioning, not auto climate control. same could be said for anti-lock brakes. i remember in the mid 80's my uncle bought this huge 500 series or something mercedes that had this unique 'anti-lock' breaking system. it seem so expensive & out of touch for a 'average' car WAYYYYYYY back then (i'm being sarcastic here). but low & behold probably by the mid 90s i'd say it was a safe bet that anti-locks could be had on practically any make/model/budget. i'm w/bob on the nav systems. i see them as commonplace by 2010 - granted it won't be no 'space odyssey' (get it? ha ha) but maybe infact it is as they are drived by gps sats, no? ok - i'll stop rambling.

ateixeira

Yeah, auto climate control isn't available on the Forest.....oops, it is! ;-)

I think a Navi system should be a stand alone option. I would like to see SPT sell it aftermarket, people would line up. Pure profit for them. Maybe an a-la-carte option. Not standard though. I don't want that cost built-in.

The other thing - are they really as effective as advertised? A recent C&D article said the FX45's system was the only one that was accurate, half a dozen others weren't.

-juice

hondafriek

I could care less about, we have all managed to find out way there and back for all these years, why does anybody think we really need it now.

 Same with auto climate control now that I wouldn't mind having, but again we have lived all these years without and managed quite well, its the same with all luxury items, suddenly they become the necessities of life.

  Cheers Pat.

subarusaleshou

I don't really want to pay a premium for nav or automatic climate control. I'm perfectly capable of adjusting the knobs on the a/c and can do so more to my liking than any auto system I've experienced. I'd rather the cost of that system go into a better sound system so I don't need to upgrade, or better brakes, or other mainstream features.

I would imagine Subaru owners as a group are more outdoor oriented. It would seem that a much better solution would be to offer a Meridien platinum system, with appropriate mounting and powering capability in the vehicle, rather than an in car only system like Honda et al. It would be much more cost effective and could be taken out and used on the hiking, kayaking, biking or whatever activity. Would/do the majority of Subaru owners want a $1xxx system that can only be used in the vehicle as opposed to a $5-6xx system that can go anywhere?

rsholland

I think navigation systems will become as popular as personal cell phones. I really think it's the next "must-have" option in cars. So I think Subaru should make that option available across the board.

Bob

subarusaleshou

I agree that nav is becoming much more mainstream. My only point is what type system. I believe that at least in Subaru's case it should be a handheld like a Meridien Platinum or similar. That can easily be taken out and used at the driving destination for the non driving activities Subaru people are known for i.e. cycling, rafting, hiking or whatever. It would also cut the cost to half or less compared to a system similar to what Honda is doing. A win-win situation.

ladywclass

First of all let me say this is not a 'necessity' to me ... but it was a NICE option on a suburban I owned ...
speed-controlled volume on the stereo system ... it automatically came down when you slowed down and went back up at highway speed .... it was a wonderful extra ....

locke2c

sorry to confuse-- I knew Bob was making a prediction about navigation systems, but I brought up automatic climate control intentionally as an example of something that has been around more than 5 years and still lacks widespread adoption.

-c

jlemole

I actually like getting lost! You see so many things you might not otherwise see if you just stayed on the interstates. So a nav system is not real high on my needs list (though my wife will disagree). A map is waaaay cheaper.

Jon

ken_from_nj

i personally don't have a use for a incar nav system. i like the old map way if i head somewhere news. the idea of a portable nav system is a good idea, something that works as a plugin in the car but you can take w/you when you exit & go off into the wild yonder. my bro's garmin handheld unit we've used on backpack trips works great & was quite accurate from what we could tell. i had chance to try the incar one in my dad's 03 honda accord last weekend (he borrowed our forester as the accord cargo capacity is NUTHIN compared to the subie). it was all cool & fun to play with & everything & but honestly - pretty distracting & poor location being in the center console unit under the dash. takes yr eyes off the road to see the map. the annoying voice to tell you where to go/what turns to make can't be turned off easily or volume adjusted from what i could tell but i could be wrong. i think it would be better to have it more like in a HUD for safety in front of the driver's view. but that would probably outprice it as a feature/option. ok 'nuff said. happy t-day all.

p0926

I prefer to navigate with my built-in compass/sense of direction. However, I recognize that there are those navigationally challenged types who get lost going to the corner store so... I concede that Nav systems will only become more prevalent in the future. I just wish they'd remain as an option (standalone preferably). I do like LD's suggestion about portable systems. Not only are they far more versatile but cheaper too.

-Frank P.

hypov

what Ken said

The portable idea would fly better... I have one

Incorporate into the dash design to facilitate the mounting of the portables, preferably HUD.
I have my mounting on the dash top but unfortunately the dash design is only 'bout 80% friendly.

SoA should work with the GPS manufactures in way of rebates for the Nav systems. Instead of Subaru offering the system itself as an option, a GPS manufacturer's rebate is offered for the NAV system of the owner's choosing.
Heck, SoA should take this idea and run with it. It expands your ability to offer options at practically no cost/after sale service, and it gives you the ability to offer variety on each option.

-Dave

ateixeira

Rand McNally makes my Nav system, it's called the "map". )

I actually agree that it should be a stand-alone option, maybe even an SPT item that is dealer- or port-installed.

If not built-in, then why not re-sell Garmin items like they do with Yakima racks? No difference, really.

-juice

bat1161

I have to agree with Ken & Dave- give accessibility for mounting a portable system, not built in. I used to want the integrated system, but have switched to the portable camp. It is easier to transfer for other uses, and it is generally cheaper as well. Just give space to mount a portable system. I do agree with Bob though- Nav systems will be commonplace within 5 years.

Mark

ladywclass

I have to admit I like a "map" however a friend and I took a trip about 4 years ago and she brought her laptop with a connector for the cigarette lighter ... we used the rand mcnally atlas PROGRAM on the computer which was really handy since we were driving a LONG haul and going straight through .. it was possible to READ the map (computer display) without turning on lights at night that would distract the driver ...

paisan

I'm spoiled with my delorme GPS. The screen on my laptop is nice and big, and has every street and trail in the country on it I just need to cook up a holder for it in the car.

-mike

jfl

...that's called a co-pilot! 8~)

Jim

rsholland

is offering a Nav system as an option. So Mazda seems to think an entry-level car is worthy of such an option. I do to, and think Subaru had better hop to it, before they get left at the starting gate with this gizmo.

Bob

hypov

I think Subaru would be better off just offering manufacturer's rebate(s) for those gizmo from the gizmo mfg. opposed to offering the gizmo itself as an option. One less gizmo to troubleshoot should anything goes astray.

-Dave

rsholland

Subaru already offers them in Japan. They really need to offer it here too. Otherwise they'll be perceived as being behind the times.

This is one of those items that's great for corporate braggin' rights, if nothing else.

Bob

hypov

and for corporate braggin' rights.

True true. Can't disagree there

Personally, I would prefer to be given the opportunity to choose the gizmo of my liking/suited for me versus an option of one.

-Dave

paisan

All manufacturers have offered them across the board in Japan for 10 years or so.

-mike

rsholland

This is just another example of Japanese-only goodies not making the ocean trip.

Bob

rsholland

Anyone besides me notice that the Impreza 2.5RS, once the darling of Subie nuts, is going nowhere fast. This point was just driven home in the recent Motor Trend road test, in which the RS went head-to-head against the Focus, and few others, and came in dead last in their ratings, and in acceleration too (0-60 in 11 sec!).

It seems to me that the RS is in need of some sort of serious marketing/content boost since the debuts of the WRX and STi. The RS, along with Osama Bin Laden, has virtually crawled into a cave and disappeared. Frankly, it has about the same "curb appeal" as the entry-level TS wagon. I actually think the Outback Sport is more desirable than the RS, by a long shot.

Even just offering some new colors would help.

Bob

ateixeira

C&D tested one with a bunch of sport compacts, and it came in 2nd out of a large group, behind the Mazda MP3. 0-60 was in the 7s for that 5 speed.

MT must have had an auto, or granny shifted, or both. Seems way off.

Any how, for 2002 they actually deleted a couple of things, fog lights and the rear LSD, IIRC. So yeah, that model became 2nd fiddle, big time.

-juice

rsholland

And it was a 5-speed. They also said the handling wasn't as good as the Focus, Mazda Rallyart or the Sentra SE-R.

Bob

ateixeira

That sounds way, way off. I have never seen a 2.5l Subie with a manual even close to that slow, and the RS is the lightest vehicle that uses that powertrain!

No way, the car or their tests were off.

-juice

locke2c

the impreza RS needs a power boost with no price tag boost in order to hope to compete with other compacts.

in 1998 it wasn't particularly competitive and the others have gotten better while it only got heavier.

-Colin

njswamplands

fly the detroit crew to aussie land to check out the aussie version with the H6. they can actually have a real test drive then. or do we expect to see something different in detroit?

ateixeira

I bet there will be at least some differences. I'll be on the lookout for those at the Detroit show.

-juice

ken_from_nj

mike - i saw a pseudo desk thingy that went in the passenger seat of a car that could hold a laptop/etc. it was in the skymall mag on a plane (ok i was REALLY bored during the flight). i went to www.skymall.com & searched on 'auto desk' and it came right up - a bit pricey but could serve the purpose. just fyi
-ken

rsholland

rsholland "Subaru Baja" Dec 2, 2003 10:13am

rsholland

for the future Baja is to take the Envoy XUV/Wagonaire approach. Here's why:

I think this offers the most flexibility, and is the most practical.

The problem with most current family-oriented pickups (Baja, Avalanche, Ford Super Crew, et al) is that the (secure) storage space is limited to the beltline height. Yes, you can put on a bed cap, but most of those look tacky at best, and it's really a band aid solution, IMO.

The beauty of the GMC Envoy XUV is that you have a secure cargo area that is the height of the vehicle, and that the cargo area can be hosed out when dirty. To me that's about as good as it gets.

Now, as to build it off the all-new Outback platform, or the larger 7-passenger crossover; I'm leaning towards the crossover, simply because I think it will have a broader appeal because of its greater inherit strength. It simply will be able to do more than an Outback-based version.

Bob

ateixeira

Won't that be heavy and expensive?

I wonder, how well is the XUV selling?

Avalanche is selling pretty well. Crew cabs are selling even better.

-juice

rsholland

I'm saying build a vehicle off the crossover platform (or Outback platform) using ideas presented by the XUV.

What GMC came up with is a great idea. Unfortunately it's built on a lousy platform. What I'd like to see is that those ideas are improved upon, and built off a Subie chassis. My first choice would the crossover platform. My second choice would the Outback platform.

As to cost and expense, I have no idea. While the sliding roof is mainly the expense of a moonroof, it won't have the complexity and expense of 3rd-row seats. Nor will it have expensive interior materials that the 3rd-row seat of the 7-passenger crossover would have. I have no doubt Subaru can pull it off without breaking the bank.

Same with weight; probably in same neighborhood of the 7-passenger crossover.

Bob

rsholland

I don't know how they're doing.

One of the problems that the XUV has is that it looks just like any other GMC Envoy at first glance. So that could be a problem for GMC. Their great "message" may never get delivered, because most people will never notice. That's certainly not a problem with a crew cab pickup.

If Subaru were to offer an XUV-like vehicle, it might have to have some styling revisions so as to tell it apart from the 7-passenger crossover, from which it would be developed. Maybe just make it a bit longer?

Bob

bkaiser1

I read that stat yesterday about the 0-60 in 11 seconds and I just couldn't believe it...having owned a much heavier outback with that powertrain, I knew the RS couldn't be that slow. That number (published in the latest Motor Trend) is for the 0-70mph, not 0-60, for the RS. The RS gets to 60 in that test in just over 8 seconds, which seems much more reasonable for that powertrain.

Brian

rsholland

I stand corrected. I misread the spec sheet.

Bob <blushing with embarrassment>

ateixeira

That's more like it.

Still, in the middle of this horsepower war, that's slow. The Mazda 3 takes 7.4s, and that's about where most of the pocket rockets are nowadays.

WRX is in a price class above, so the RS needs a boost to stay competitive.

-juice

rsholland

I see the new Maxima is available with a 4-passenger option. The rear seating is only for two, it has a center console with storage compartments and a raised center armrest. In addition, the two rear seats are heated, and it has a power rear sunshade.

I would like to see this offered as an option on the Legacy GT, at least on the sedan model. Not everyone wants/needs 5-passenger seating, and it truly would offer "grand touring" for all passengers, not just those lucky enough to be in the front seats.

As a side note (but related), there definitely appears to be a trend, at least with large SUVs and minivans, to treat middle-row passengers with more respect and comfort. Virtually all those vehicles offer as an option 2-seat middle-row bucket seats (with center console) that recline, and offer more comfort than the traditional middle-row bench seat. So I think there is a market in the sedan marketplace, to also offer as an option, "premium" rear seating.

Bob