I have to chime in again. I am "only" 5'11" with a 32" inseam. Still, I have to agree that the Outback (and I am not talking about the Sport) is cramped. It is cramped with respect to left-right leg room and knee room, and in particular, elbow and shoulder room.
When I sit in an Outback, what bothers me most is that all three, my shoulder, elbow, and left knee are touching the door. That is extremely annoying and simply should not be the case, since I don't have a similar problem in a Golf or Jetta, let alone a Passat or similar vehicle by another manufacturer (OK, Honda typically has no usable front leg room, in particular, for the passenger).
Although you would not expect this, the Forester is a bit better in that respect, so I suspect poorly designed interior plastic lines and angles in the Legacy/Outback, and perhaps a window with too much of an inward slant.
I guess I misunderstood ... I consider "leg room" the amount of space between the seat and the pedals. I suppose we're also talking hip, shoulder, etc. room which to me is something different entirely ...
Brenda- You're right, "leg room" does usually connote the distance between the seat and the firewall (or pedals). Is there another term to describe the total room in the foot well?
Hmmm, I don't recall feeling cramped at all in the Outback. When I sat in a Liberty on the other hand, the foot well did seem confining. The Forester certainly seems “airier” than the Outback but that's because it has a higher roof and more glass.
I've always used that phrase until I found out how WRX's were allocated.
Impreza's are built in Gunma then loaded onto a ship. The dealer is informed by SoA (or the distributor) when the ship is on the way that "x" number of cars are on the ship and "x" number are for the that particular dealer. (eg: Joe Bob's Subaru gets 2 white sedans one black wagon).
That's it! The dealer picks the customer's order from whatever is on the way over on a particular ship. I found that out when my friend had problems getting the WRX color that he wanted. So ordering from the factory is essentially, ordering from the boat. :-)
Ordering foreign cars is not like ordering domestic (GM, Ford, Chrysler) cars. With foreign cars, you're probably correct, although it may depend somewhat on the brand. With domestics, you can special order.
I humbly suggest that the next Legacy be offered with a manual transmission in all trims. Please do not saddle the six cylinder or turbo fours with a mandatory automatic transmission.
I'll never give up my manual, but I don't care if it's a five speed or six.
ladywclass is right , there is normally plenty of distance from seat to pedals in the Outback and I guess that would be the definition of "legroom".
In comparing the 2 models I noticed a problem with the available seat to pedal distance in the Outback moreso when I had the upper back seats down for cargo-carrying and to do that in the Outback the bottom back seat fliips up. When that's in place there's limited option for moving the drive's seat back. This isn't the case in the Forester however the trade-off is the back seats don't fold down as nice and flat.
The funny thing was , as I think sebberry was suggesting, I also felt there was almost too much distance to the pedals. To get a comfortable feel on the pedals I ended up too close to the steering wheel.
The Forester isn't like that . Hard to explain. Something about the leg/arm ratios. In fact it's been a little hard to get use to the additional hip and shoulder space in the Forester. After the Outback I've felt like I was driving from a park bench. Missing those bucket seats I guess.
One suggestion I have is if there would be a way to design the cargo area in the Forester so that the seats would fold flat AND you could retain the distance eaten up by the flipped up bottom section. I wouldn't have not bought the car due to that characteristic but a nice flat cargo bed would be nice.
Anyway, I never notice alot of things til after I've had a car a few days. It's made me realize to stop doing the 10 minute test drive at the dealership (dummy me!)
Are many dealers willing to let you take a similar model loaner for several hours or a day or so in order to see if the car is a good fit for one's own peculiar self?
What usually do is test several cars, several days apart. That way I can reflect upon each test drive, and each subsequent test drive I notice different things. I usually go to different dealers for each test drive, thereby avoiding any extra pressure from the salesman.
After several test drives, I have a pretty good picture of the vehicle in question. I really think you need the time in between each test drive to think about the car. When you take "time off" for a few days, you come back to each test drive with a clearer picture, and any questions you may have come up with during the interim, you can then address.
I was looking at the Foresters on the Subaru-Japan site. I really like the idea of a durable cargo area. I assume this means rubberized sinmilar to the Honda Element?
Do you think the seat backs are "durable", too, are they rubberized as well? We keep a big flar rug in the back to lay out in the cargo area when the seats are down to protect the upholstery beyond the cargo tray. It's bulky though and the edges of the cargo tray end up getting smushed too.
I would love the option of a model with less fiber covering in the cargo area.
Further to Colin's post, I believe that transmission choice will be one of the most important issues for the new N. American Legacy.
We *have* to have choice of a manual in the H6 and turbo and the automatic *has* to have the Sportshift with shift buttons on the steering wheel. Oh, and how about available Sportshift on at least turbos AND H6's?
Please, please equip ALL Legacy and Outback Automatic transmission models with 5EAT and VTD. Sportshift and steering wheel buttons would be a welcome bonus. Please dump the 4EAT and non-VTD Active AWD.
Impreza's are built in Gunma then loaded onto a ship. The dealer is informed by SoA (or the distributor) when the ship is on the way that "x" number of cars are on the ship and "x" number are for the that particular dealer. (eg: Joe Bob's Subaru gets 2 white sedans one black wagon).
That's it! The dealer picks the customer's order from whatever is on the way over on a particular ship. I found that out when my friend had problems getting the WRX color that he wanted. So ordering from the factory is essentially, ordering from the boat. :-)
Dennis- Well there's a little more to it than that. Once the ship arrives in Seattle, there are numerous "Port Installed" options that can be added. In fact, virtually all of Subaru's options are capable of being added at the port. Please note that a moon roof or leather (which the port doesn't install) aren't listed as separate options but are incorporated into the model line. And as Bob pointed out, comparing ordering foreign to domestics is apples and oranges.
paisan: Is it that you don't think the WRX STi's 6-speed could handle the H6's torque, or that SoA marketing doesn't think there's a demand for that combo?
Oh, and here's a wacky suggestion: Why not make World Rally (WR) Blue available across all model lines, not just WRXes? It's become associated with Subarus much as the color red has become associated with Italian cars - through racing.
But I'm just going by the fact that they haven't put a MT in any H6 units (including the H6s over seas) I think that the H6 unit's low-end torque could have something to do with it, even though the STi and B4 etc. all develop more torque and HP overall, they may not (and I'm no engineer) be able to handle torque low in the band. From what I've been told by auto-industry people is that the lower end torque can break the transmissions much easier than higher peak torques.
-mike
PS: Colin, thanks for the mature comment above. They have had the 6-speed when the EZ30 came out, they didn't put it in there.
I think we will see a 6-speed H-6 at some point in some Subie. Not sure when or which model, but think it will show up.
I don't think the 6-speed will remain a WRX STi exclusive. I think it will see use in other models, and the H-6 would be a good candidate.
The current 212 HP H-6 is not a low-end torque monster by any stretch. If it gets the 247 HP that C&D predicts, I think the 6-speed would be a very good match.
From the explainations I got, they don't have to be a low-end torque monster, just have to have significant low end torque (like in the 1500-2500 range) that we just don't see in the H4 units. I can't defend or deny how valid that is, but that's what more experienced car/race people offer as a reason for not having the MTs in the H6 units.
I've driven both 2.5 H-4s and 3.0 H-6s, and the H-6, down low, doesn't feel any different than the H-4 as far as I can tell. When it gets above 4000 rpm the H-6 comes on strong.
I'd like to see a graph comparing the power/torque curve of those two engines.
Since it's an AT don't forget that the torque converter will suck up that low end torque if there is any, kinda like a rubberband expanding and then catching up to itself. I'd like to see the graphs as well.
at the same time, but the 6speed has been out for a while now (2+ years IIRC?) as has the EZ30 and it hasn't made it into the EZ30 cars (neither in japan nor in the USDM).
Subaru has seen the performance sells, so I think the H6 will eventually come with a manual. I hope it does.
6 speed would make it seem more upscale and sporty, but it's probably not necessary. I'm not sure I'd get a 6 speed Miata, for instance, since the 5 speed is just fine.
It would seem to border on the incredible if a tranny that can handle 300hp couldn't manage 247.
Remember the nay-sayers 20+ years ago when the 5-speed was still a novel concept?
I can actually see a use for a 6-speed in my Forester since the engine revs fairly high when crusing on the interstate. A true over-drive would reduce the revs and should even improve the MPG slightly. Of course you'd have to couple it to the XT so you wouldn't have to down-shift every time you wanted to pass :-)
1st gear could be a granny gear for off-roading and/or launching trailers. Honda did this years ago with their 4WD Civic wagon. It had 6 gears, but you would normally start of in 2nd gear, and leave 1st gear for tough launches that required lower gearing.
really overdriven 5th and 6th gears are not possible though unless you have a lot of displacement. you can't pull 1800 rpm at 60mph with a small engine.
They could with the H6. One mag said the 7 passenger SUW would get a 3.6l, that's huge for Subaru. I bet they widen the track significantly and stroke the engine.
How about SOA providing an online list or directory of dealers and/or shops that have Subaru Sr. Master Technicians? I think it would help me as a consumer and loyal Subaru customer, as well as give dealers an additional incentive to get their service technicians trained. -Bob
I see lots of diploma of techs hanging on the wall of this dealer service and I thought it is pretty reassuring to the customer(s) that brought their cars in for service. However, they weren't Subaru Tech Diplomas
I wonder if the reason sales are slow here in Canada is because most families cannot afford a Legacy or a Forester. I still see a lot of Loyale wagons around that are still very much appreciated my their owners. They cost C$14,000 (US$ 10,500) new in 1993 for a front wheel drive model. And what about bringing back the Chaser and the Justy? Those were great "affordable student cars". Do you think Subaru made a mistake going AWD only in North America, and getting rid of the "low end" models? I do. I think that is why we are losing dealers in my area (Montreal, Quebec).
Sales are up about 80% since they went to AWD only, so I doubt they'll reverse that.
I think Canadian pricing is higher than ours, for whatever reason, especially relative to competitors. I'm not sure decontenting is the answer, but maybe that 2.0l engine from the JDM with 156hp could be offered in a new line of Brigthon models, even if only for Canada.
Even in the US, that would help CAFE.
Then again, I ask, but my next Subie will most likely be the XT or the H6 6 speed Legacy, whichever wagon gets the moonroof first.
Actually, I believe going 2wd against Honda and Toyota caused FHI big losses. FHI is not big enough to compete head-to-head against the big boys and therefore needs to focus in a niche. They simply don't have the volume to drive down unit cost like Toyota.
Today's challenge is that others are moving into Subaru's niche!
No question that Subaru's biggest draw (and why I bought one) is the tried and true, affordable AWD in a car-based/wagon platform. Sure there are more and more AWD vehicles, but they all seem to be either SUV's or expensive premiums. Even the VW Passat 4-Motion wagon is up in the mid-30's. Having had an Outback for almost a year now, I have no doubt that I'll be replacing my other car with another AWD vehicle. I don't want an SUV, and only Subaru fits my budget for an AWD wagon; but that's great because I'm convinced that Subaru gives me the most bang for my buck.
First, I think the market in Canada is very different to that in the USA (we are not as rich??).
I think it would be a good idea for Subaru to have a small, affordable "first car" type vehicle, like the Chaser and the Justy were. I believe that most people, once they purchase a Subaru, are hooked to Subaru. Am I right? So why not market a small, affordable vehicle aimed at the young consumer who doesn't have much money to spend? Then they will come back and buy the more expensive models later.
Subaru needs to develop a new, state-of-the-art, entry-level world car to replace the ancient Justy.
Even if it's a small 1500 – 1600cc car, smaller than the Impreza, it still could be a lot of fun to drive, and would attract first-time buyers to the Subaru brand. Subaru needs something to grab the attention of those looking at Kias, and the like. A small 2-door & 4-door hatchback, like the VW Polo or Honda City.
It could also be the basis for Subaru's next-generation WRC racer.
What was that concept? HM-01, something like that? They showed two at the same time, I thought the small one was actually more interesting, for what it was.
The euro Justy is a rebadged Suzuki. They used to call them Swifts here, also Geo/Chevy Metro. It's just a model to fill a gap, since that size class is important to the lineup in Europe (and not here).
While I owned my 4WD 2 door hatchback Chaser (over 10 years and then sold it at a very good price since I needed something bigger for 2 kids...the Loyale wagon), I often heard that the Chaser was "made up of left over odds and ends at the Subaru factory in Japan". Rumour or fact, I don't know, but it was a very good combination of "odds and ends"! It was bigger than the Justy and felt sportier (though didn't have much guts for passing and climbing the hills in Vermont). Why not make a model along the lines of the Chaser, with todays engine?
Comments
I have to chime in again. I am "only" 5'11" with a 32" inseam. Still, I have to agree that the Outback (and I am not talking about the Sport) is cramped. It is cramped with respect to left-right leg room and knee room, and in particular, elbow and shoulder room.
When I sit in an Outback, what bothers me most is that all three, my shoulder, elbow, and left knee are touching the door. That is extremely annoying and simply should not be the case, since I don't have a similar problem in a Golf or Jetta, let alone a Passat or similar vehicle by another manufacturer (OK, Honda typically has no usable front leg room, in particular, for the passenger).
Although you would not expect this, the Forester is a bit better in that respect, so I suspect poorly designed interior plastic lines and angles in the Legacy/Outback, and perhaps a window with too much of an inward slant.
Room (pun intended) for improvement,
- D.
I suppose we're also talking hip, shoulder, etc. room which to me is something different entirely ...
Hmmm, I don't recall feeling cramped at all in the Outback. When I sat in a Liberty on the other hand, the foot well did seem confining. The Forester certainly seems “airier” than the Outback but that's because it has a higher roof and more glass.
-Frank P.
Impreza's are built in Gunma then loaded onto a ship.
The dealer is informed by SoA (or the distributor) when the ship is on the way that "x" number of cars are on the ship and "x" number are for the that particular dealer. (eg: Joe Bob's Subaru gets 2 white sedans one black wagon).
That's it! The dealer picks the customer's order from whatever is on the way over on a particular ship. I found that out when my friend had problems getting the WRX color that he wanted. So ordering from the factory is essentially, ordering from the boat. :-)
-Dennis
Bob
I humbly suggest that the next Legacy be offered with a manual transmission in all trims. Please do not saddle the six cylinder or turbo fours with a mandatory automatic transmission.
I'll never give up my manual, but I don't care if it's a five speed or six.
-Colin
In comparing the 2 models I noticed a problem with the available seat to pedal distance in the Outback moreso when I had the upper back seats down for cargo-carrying and to do that in the Outback the bottom back seat fliips up. When that's in place there's limited option for moving the drive's seat back. This isn't the case in the Forester however the trade-off is the back seats don't fold down as nice and flat.
The funny thing was , as I think sebberry was suggesting, I also felt there was almost too much distance to the pedals. To get a comfortable feel on the pedals I ended up too close to the steering wheel.
The Forester isn't like that . Hard to explain. Something about the leg/arm ratios. In fact it's been a little hard to get use to the additional hip and shoulder space in the Forester. After the Outback I've felt like I was driving from a park bench. Missing those bucket seats I guess.
One suggestion I have is if there would be a way to design the cargo area in the Forester so that the seats would fold flat AND you could retain the distance eaten up by the flipped up bottom section. I wouldn't have not bought the car due to that characteristic but a nice flat cargo bed would be nice.
Anyway, I never notice alot of things til after I've had a car a few days. It's made me realize to stop doing the 10 minute test drive at the dealership (dummy me!)
Are many dealers willing to let you take a similar model loaner for several hours or a day or so in order to see if the car is a good fit for one's own peculiar self?
bee
After several test drives, I have a pretty good picture of the vehicle in question. I really think you need the time in between each test drive to think about the car. When you take "time off" for a few days, you come back to each test drive with a clearer picture, and any questions you may have come up with during the interim, you can then address.
Bob
Do you think the seat backs are "durable", too, are they rubberized as well? We keep a big flar rug in the back to lay out in the cargo area when the seats are down to protect the upholstery beyond the cargo tray. It's bulky though and the edges of the cargo tray end up getting smushed too.
I would love the option of a model with less fiber covering in the cargo area.
bee
We *have* to have choice of a manual in the H6 and turbo and the automatic *has* to have the Sportshift with shift buttons on the steering wheel. Oh, and how about available Sportshift on at least turbos AND H6's?
-Dennis
Thank You.
DaveM
Hyundai, Kia, and Mitsubishi offer them, c'mon now. By the time they come out Subaru won't even be able to brag about the feature.
-juice
That's it! The dealer picks the customer's order from whatever is on the way over on a particular ship. I found that out when my friend had problems getting the WRX color that he wanted. So ordering from the factory is essentially, ordering from the boat. :-)
Dennis- Well there's a little more to it than that. Once the ship arrives in Seattle, there are numerous "Port Installed" options that can be added. In fact, virtually all of Subaru's options are capable of being added at the port. Please note that a moon roof or leather (which the port doesn't install) aren't listed as separate options but are incorporated into the model line. And as Bob pointed out, comparing ordering foreign to domestics is apples and oranges.
-Frank P.
-mike
-Colin
Oh, and here's a wacky suggestion: Why not make World Rally (WR) Blue available across all model lines, not just WRXes? It's become associated with Subarus much as the color red has become associated with Italian cars - through racing.
Ed
-mike
PS: Colin, thanks for the mature comment above. They have had the 6-speed when the EZ30 came out, they didn't put it in there.
I don't think the 6-speed will remain a WRX STi exclusive. I think it will see use in other models, and the H-6 would be a good candidate.
The current 212 HP H-6 is not a low-end torque monster by any stretch. If it gets the 247 HP that C&D predicts, I think the 6-speed would be a very good match.
Bob
Ed
-mike
I'd like to see a graph comparing the power/torque curve of those two engines.
Bob
they better have upgraded that capacity, and have plans to use the box elsewhere. or if they have a new, beefier five speed that's fine too.
thought your skin was thicker than that, mike.
mine is!
-Colin
Bob
-mike
-mike
Ken
6 speed would make it seem more upscale and sporty, but it's probably not necessary. I'm not sure I'd get a 6 speed Miata, for instance, since the 5 speed is just fine.
I'll take either if it's just available.
-juice
If the 6-speed can handle a 300/300 (horsepower/torque) STi, I'm sure it can handle a 247 HP H-6.
Bob
Remember the nay-sayers 20+ years ago when the 5-speed was still a novel concept?
I can actually see a use for a 6-speed in my Forester since the engine revs fairly high when crusing on the interstate. A true over-drive would reduce the revs and should even improve the MPG slightly. Of course you'd have to couple it to the XT so you wouldn't have to down-shift every time you wanted to pass :-)
-Frank P.
Bob
How do you think GM eeks 27mpg EPA highway numbers from a huge 3.8l engine pulling a full size car?
-juice
-mike
-Colin
-juice
-Bob
I see lots of diploma of techs hanging on the wall of this dealer service and I thought it is pretty reassuring to the customer(s) that brought their cars in for service. However, they weren't Subaru Tech Diplomas
-Dave
-Dennis
I think Canadian pricing is higher than ours, for whatever reason, especially relative to competitors. I'm not sure decontenting is the answer, but maybe that 2.0l engine from the JDM with 156hp could be offered in a new line of Brigthon models, even if only for Canada.
Even in the US, that would help CAFE.
Then again, I ask, but my next Subie will most likely be the XT or the H6 6 speed Legacy, whichever wagon gets the moonroof first.
-juice
Today's challenge is that others are moving into Subaru's niche!
Jim
Jon
I think it would be a good idea for Subaru to have a small, affordable "first car" type vehicle, like the Chaser and the Justy were. I believe that most people, once they purchase a Subaru, are hooked to Subaru. Am I right? So why not market a small, affordable vehicle aimed at the young consumer who doesn't have much money to spend? Then they will come back and buy the more expensive models later.
Even if it's a small 1500 – 1600cc car, smaller than the Impreza, it still could be a lot of fun to drive, and would attract first-time buyers to the Subaru brand. Subaru needs something to grab the attention of those looking at Kias, and the like. A small 2-door & 4-door hatchback, like the VW Polo or Honda City.
It could also be the basis for Subaru's next-generation WRC racer.
Bob
-juice
-Colin
Bob
Time for a new model, no doubt.
-juice
forestergump - go see John Naltsas at Import Motors in Schaumburg.