Why I can bring it down a level with the best of them!
I just bought another set of floormats. I wanted to get all-weater mats, rubber style, for winter use so these cloth ones don't look so bad in a few years. I got a good internet price (toyotapart.com) and then showed the dealer and he honored it. Anyhow, on the same website, the cloth OEM mats sell for $131.25. A pretty good discount!
The OEM ones are great, as they have special mounting hole for a floor pin to go thru so they don't slip.
RWD. The rear-end traction is lost due to excess driving force in a turn and now I instinctively lift the throttle.
As the engine idles down the rear wheels will most likely regain some level of traction. Most certainly so as the engine passes through the "sweet spot", wherein it's providing neither leading nor lagging torque. It's at that exact time that the vehicle will begin to right (look where the rear wheels are pointed, back toward the original direction of travel) itsself with the original direction of travel.
As yes, eventually the engine will start providing lagging, braking torque, and assuming an automatic transmssion, not a very strong level of lagging torque.
Having just regained roadbed traction it is now likely that the effect will be one of adding enough braking at the rear to help swing the vehicle back into line.
All this with the operator having done absolutely nothing but lift the throttle.
FWD. Same scenario, but remember that this time the loss of traction is due to two separate parameters, the side force on the front tires being used to overcome forward straight line momentum, and the forward driving force of the engine.
So, by instinct, I lift the throttle. This time, absent my also turning the steering wheel to neutral (and since the vehicle is no longer following the steering inputs, just exactly where is neutral?), the front tires will still enter the zone of no leading nor lagging torque, but may not regain traction due to the lateral force.
But, granted, leading torque will begin to be reduced as the engine RPM declines to idle, and maybe, maybe, 50% of the time roadbed traction will be regained and the vehicle again starts to follow your steering input.
But now your enter the zone of lagging engine torque. If you're in that area above, 50% of the time, roadbed traction was regained, you may just be in luck.
If you're unlucky enough to be in that other 50%, well, what type of flowers would you like on your casket?
I just can't put myself in the mindset of thinking that consentrating the lateral and driving forces on one set of roadbed contact patches instead of spreading them across four is better.
You're basically saying that spreading the driving forces across four tires, AWD/4WD, doesn't help.
"You're basically saying that spreading the driving forces across four tires, AWD/4WD, doesn't help."
Um, no, I'm not. Although now I can see how you could be confused regarding certain statements by our president.
With AWD/4WD, there is an ability to transfer power to all 4 wheels. Hopefully (and depending on the design of the transfer system), power is transfer to the wheels with traction.
However, by definition, RWD and FWD are both 2wd systems. Please keep the discussion concentrated therein.
Again, when slowing, either through releasing the gas or applying the brakes, there is weight transfer to the front. Period. Makes no difference whether we are discussing 'leading torque' or 'lagging torque' or 'braking torque' or any other kind of torque. You slow - you get weight transfer to the front. Period.
Now, if you are oversteering with a RWD car (loss of control due to excess power in a turn), weight transfer to the front will reduce traction at the rear. The rear has already lost traction (oversteering). Now, you have further reduced traction (weight transfer). Result? Rear end passes the front.
If you are understeering with the FWD car (loss of control due to excess power at the front in a turn), the front end is sliding out. Weight transfer to the front WILL help to regain traction.
Have you been to any schools for high performance driving? Done any practice with the reactions of FWD cars vs RWD cars on a wet skidpad? It's amazing the difference I experienced between Taurus SHO's and Mustang GT's when I took a course with Bondurant. The Taurus would wash out on the skidpad; all it took was letting up on the gas a bit and the nose would tuck back in line (weight transfer to front = regained traction). The Mustangs were more prone to swapping ends.
ABS stands for anti lock braking. This means its sole function is to keep the wheels turning when you apply the brakes. What it does not mean is that it will keep you from skidding/spinning or any other control of the vehicle besides keeping the wheel rolling under hard braking.
What not having a locked wheel will do for your is miinmize the (locked wheels have less traction) stopping distance and reduce the chance that the locked wheel will contribute to a skid/spin. If you do spin because you have exceeded the available traction, it may keep the wheel turning if you haven't taken your foot off the brake.
ABS is a great system, it can allow any ham handed git the opportunity to get nearly the maximum braking possible for the traction available from the surface and your tires. This assumes the ham handed moron doesn't let up on the brake pedal because they are discomfited by the pulsations of the system. Which is where the new systems come in, brake assist ensures that when you begin braking you will apply maximum braking until you release the brake pedal completely. EBD or electronic brake distribution assists in electronically distributing the braking force front to rear and left to right to get the most braking out of the available traction at each wheel. VSC uses all the existing ABS componentry and additional sensors to ascertain the initentions of the driver relative to the actual dynamic behavior of the vehicle and uses the braking system to ensure control by applying braking to individual wheels.
Vehicle stability control works under braking or during any other manuver to keep the vehicle under control, it uses the same brakes, pressure pump and sensors to tell what each wheel is doing. It can work while your vehicle is accelerating, decelerating or coasting. It is all about assisting in keeping the vehicle from spinning (oversteering) or pushing (understeering) off the road or into oncoming traffic.
ABS may have been mistakenly identified as a way to fewer accidents. I think what it shows is that most drivers drive too fast for conditions and follow too closely. No matter how efficient ABS can brake, if there is not enough distance to stop before hitting another object you will hit it. I don't think they should have touted it as a savior as peoples base driving habits are so poor.
As for it costing 2900, yeah you can look at it that way, which is overly simplistic. VW has it as a separate option that can be applied to any model for 300. I think VWs option package strategy is much better than Toyotas. VW includes side and side curtain airbags as standard on all models from the cheapest to the most expensive (except the Eurovan, another strike against gettin one). All around a better approach in my view. Sadly the new Bus won't be available for another two years.
Out of curiosity, did any of you read any of the links I posted? Particularly you Mr West?
Is pertinent here, as it is about driving at the limit. When you lose traction for whatever reason you are at or beyond the limit. Understanding how to regain control or prevent the initial loss of control is the issue. If you were to take a course in driving beyond drivers ed, you would have a better understanding of vehicle dynamics and behavior.
I have spent quite a few weekends on race courses with the Porsche club as well as innumerable days on autocross courses, frozen lakes and hillclimbs. Although I am not national champion caliber, I can drive fairly well. I know what my car and myself are capable of in all weather conditions. I ensure that I have my vehicles in the best condition possible to give me every chance of keeping control. 4 snow tires in winter, tires with legal tread the rest of the year for wet and dry traction.
As has been said many times here, its about the driver and a poorly prepared, poorly educated driver (as most are) is going to have accidents regardless of the equipment they use.
If I'm entering a hairpin turn in my C4 at PIR I'm poised and mentally on edge, totally prepared for the potential of lost tractive force, just as I should be.
I have driven hundreds of miles in the wintertime in snow and ice storms, MT, WY, CO, ID, etc, and typcially arrived at the destination totally exhausted, mentally and physically. So I will be one of the first to say that it is beyond human capability to sustain the level of attention one must have pushing the edge at PIR for hour upon hour in the wintertime in adverse conditions.
So, SURPRISE, wake up, the rear is trying to pass the front!
And I'm really not one to denigrate my fellow posters, but would one of the moderators step in here and advise our audience of the real purpose and functionality of ABS?
The following is taken directly from my 2001 AWD RX300 owner's manual, page 199, left column, top.
"Anti-lock brake system is not designed to shorten the stopping distance: Always drive at the moderate speed and maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front of you. Compared with vehicles without an anti-lock brake system, your vehicle may require a longer stopping distance in the following cases.
* Driving on rough, gravel or snow-covered roads. * Driving with tire chains installed * Driving over steps such as joints in the road. * Driving on roads where the road surface is pitted or has other difference in surface height."
END QUOTE.
I would add glare ice to the list but the above is certain a good start.
Folks can get themselves killed out there listening to, and believing, posters who seem to be knowledgable about ABS, saying it results in shortened stopping distances.
"Now two studies from Europe and Japan -- where consumers have more widely embraced the systems -- confirm what I've long believed: that stability control may be second only to seat belts in safeguarding drivers and passengers.
Toyota found that electronic stability control reduced single-vehicle crashes in Japan by a remarkable 35 percent and head-on crashes by 30 percent. And in the European study, Mercedes-Benz, whose lineup has sported ESC as a standard feature since 1999, reported a 29 percent drop in single-vehicle accidents; crashes of all types fell 15 percent.
Those kinds of results could prevent as many as 6,000 of the nearly 43,000 crash-related deaths each year in the U.S. -- dramatically more than air bags, which have saved about 800 lives annually since 1987, according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA)."
Not all Electronic stability control systems are created equal. Toyota's VSC is one of the better ones. Consumer Reports have criticized Acura's VSA system as not being too effective.
For those with doubts about Toyota's VSC system, here's a very technical analysis of Toyota's VSC and Mercedes' ESP system in LX470 and ML320 by NHTSA.
Even though the tests was for roll over tendency, the data is very interesting. Check out the data and the graphs, VSC is devastatingly effective in LX470. It practically transformed the vehicle response.
To mdell2 regarding Sequoia in intersections. He probably wouldn't make it through the intersection in the first place had it not the VSC cut in - he probably would have spun out. As for the Landcruiser in the ditch - you still cannot defy the law of physics. That guy was driving way too fast, and nothing could save you if you don't slow down. As for your question "Did I make a mistake?", I would not hesitate to say "Yes, you did make a mistake." If you can afford it and have a chance to change your order to include VSC and side airbag, do so now, you won't regret it. Both will be standard item in future models.
To wwest: you have little idea how VSC works. Your insistance of applying both rear brakes showed your flawed understanding of car dynamics. No ESP/VSC systems work like this. And why do you keep churning out this lengthy FWD/RWD debates time after time despite the plea from the moderator to take them elsewhere?
Mr West I think you read more into what some of us wrote than was there. No one said ABS will get you better stopping distances. What I wrote was that ABS will give you the best possible stopping distances in a given condition.
There are two exceptions to this, on gravel roads and roads with a significant build up of packing snow. The reason for this is that on gravel or packable snow, you can build up a wedge of material in front of a locked tire that can contribute to shorter stopping distances than a rolling wheel controlled by ABS can deliver.
ABS can deliver near expert driver braking distances time after time for a given road condition. Few drivers, me included, would qualify as expert drivers especially every minute they are driving. Many people do have unreasonable expectations of ABS's capabilities, if your car needs 180 feet to stop from a given speed on a clean road, it can deliver. If you are following too closely or driving too fast for conditions it cannot perform a miracle to stop you sooner.
I have been very careful to provide information from the OE manufacturer, what I have written has been from personal experience, extensive reading of SAE papers along with other sources.
As for getting people injured, the horse puckey that you have been spreading on this and several other boards about front wheel drive and your ways of overcoming presumed limitations are dangerous. You have never presented information that support your flawed ideas. You are welcome to your opinions, you are welcome to your flawed ideas and presumptions, but don't flaunt them as facts in the face of honest debate and then shuffle off grumpy with "you can't change my opinion".
If the moderators want me to go away, fine, I can post elsewhere and continue to read here. I have been trying to respond to what I see as misinformation given what I know from my education and personal interests. People are welcome to make decisions on what they should buy, I find it worrisome when they make the decision on the basis of flawed and incorrect information. If I have provided incorrect information, or explained things in a way that is misleading, let me know. I will do my best to clarify it or correct it. I have yet to have that brought to my attention in a way that shows me what is incorrect from a credible source beyond opinion.
I skip all of your posts. Hope you take constructive feedback and channel your thoughts into more concise, on-topic discussions. More importantly, you aren't convincing about your very different beliefs about FWD and I suggest you drop it.
If you wish to just talk about FWD and RWD, you should make posts regarding those and not interject those thoughts in every discussion.
This is getting really far afield and highly technical in nature for a discussion focused on the '04 Sienna. Although the conversation is appropriate for Town Hall, it needs to continue in a discussion suited for it - if nothing exists, please feel free to create a new discussion.
Out of courtesy for those wishing to talk about less technical aspects of this vehicle, further conversation along this route will be deleted. Thanks!
kirstie_h Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
There is one offending party here and yet you are criticizing all. That brings us all down--we just want to share info and enjoy talking about our vans.
dplachta - Those all-weather mats that you bought, is it for 4 pieces (front and second rows) or all three rows? If is it for all 3 rows, it is a good deal. I have been shopping with www.camelbacktoyotaparts.com for Toyota parts and accessories. The all-weather mats for the first & second rows costs $73.75 plus the 3rd rows for $61.88 = $135.63. I am sure these cost more at the dealers. If you want more protection for the cargo area, try www.mats.com for the WeatherTech cargo liner. They have the regular version which fits the 3rd seat well area and the extended version which fits when the 3rd seat is down.
The all weather floormats I bought were $73.xx for the 1st two rows, and $57.xx for the 3rd row.
I think the $73 was a good deal as they are a custom fit and high quality. The 3rd row, however, is just a rectagular shape and seems overpriced still. I won't return it, but if I was to do it again I might take the dimensions and look for a cheaper one that fit or buy and cut material from Home Depot.
I've always thought that AWD, four wheel drive and VSC are not necessary to get through the winter unless you like to slalom through the Rockies in January and don't have the sense to slow down!
I like to keep my new vehicle costs south of $20K so some of these features won't interest me until they trickle down to the bread and butter vehicles. Boy, this discussion sure has gotten off topic. I pledge not to post here anymore. Back to 2004+ Sienna, of which I have no interest other than to keep track of the minivan competition. It is currently too expensive and too large for our needs. Toyota needs a short wheel base version with seats that can be instantly evaporated and recondensed in the van with the touch of a button. Beam me up Scottie!
As promised, several off-topic posts have been removed. Carry on talking about the Sienna!
kirstie_h Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I recently got the Weathertech cargo liner. It fits the well perfectly. However, you cannot lower the third row seats due to the design of the mechanism. This was a bummer to me, but I'll still keep it for the upcoming winter months.
mtnbrfl - I have been doing some research on this. I probably buy the extended version when my van arrive in December. I usually carry many stuffs and with the 3rd seat down.
Can anyone point me in the direction of a discussion on the 8 passenger Siennas? I have two year old twins and a third due in January and am very interested in sitting three kids in the second row (within reach). I would like to know soon because of the waiting time for the Sienna.
I went to my Toyota dealer but they only had a 7 passenger on the lot. So, I was unable to see if the three car seats fit!
Does anyone know how wide the middle row seats are in the 8 passenger seating? Will three car seats fit?
We looked closely at the 8-seater but ruled it OUT due to (1) the middle (8th) seat is smaller -- yes, it would hold a carseat but was not equitable with the other two (in size) and probably any chid older than a toddler or pre-K would be cramped. (2) the OTHER 2 seats did not have armrests (they were not separate captain's chairs) and, while the middle seat could be removed entirely, you wouldn't be left with a comaparble "7-seat van." (3) When the middle seat was removed, the remaining the pushed together as a bench; (4) One would therefore forever be climbing in from the side, going down the middle to get to row #3 if the smaller (8th)seat wassd removed ... or, worse (5) with the 8th seat in, the third row of seats is not easily approachable from the side door. We, too, have 3 kids but felt that in 5 years our smallest won't be comfotable in the smaller "penalty seat." We also were upgrading from a station wagon and felt that on a longer trip, the "beauty" of the van was being able to separate the kids rather than have them wall-to-wall on a bench seat. We still, however, favor the 04 Sienna for the SPLIT third row ... one child can sit there and the rest can be flat for cargo.
Interesting note about the lack of arm rests on the side seats when you get the 8 passenger.
I think long term we will have two in the middle and the third child in the back row (or maybe two of the three if they want to get away from mommy and daddy).
But, in the short term, I think having the third seat in the 2nd row makes sense as long as they all fit across.
I agree that in five years we will have to remove the middle seat and send a kid to the back. But, my immediate concern is loading up the third kid in the way back third row. I guess my other concern is the two older kids beating up the younger kid in the middle seat.
For my purposes, the important statement is that a car seat would fit in the middle row. Just for clarification, does that mean you feel that THREE car seats would fit across the middle bench?
I think the arm rests are unneeded by most passengers in the rear, both of my boys boosters have integral hieght adjustable armrests that are in the correct position for their bodies. My wife and I are small and never use the armrests in our cars now, with our children taking after our stature, they likely will never have much use for them.
We ordered a LE 8 passenger (even though we have only 3 kids) so we could have them all in the second row for long journeys. We also wanted to be able to carry all our kids and have each of them bring a friend if they wanted to in the future or for field trips.
We expect that our day to day configuration will have the second row right seat removed to make easy access to the rear seat/door and allow my wife to enter and exit the van with the kids through the powered door. If you go with removing the middle second row seat you end up with a very generous aisle to go down the middle. Much more room than a normal van with seats in the standard position.
The Sienna was the only safe mini van that offered seating for 8. The combo of multiple reconfigurable seats was an unbeatable combination in a safe, reliable and relatively affordable vehicle was an unbeatable combination.
Toyota for 2005 . we have 3 kids also and i will never go back to an 8 seater too much of a pain to get in and out of for people in the rear seat . I will get the Xle 7 pass. when i get my van after I am out of my 2002 trailblazer lease . I will say with 3 kids the Toyota is the choice for us as the 3rd row seat that is split and folds is a big selling point and so is Toyota reliability factor.
I am guessing with the split rear seat, we can always drop one of the sides and access the rear seat through the rear hatch if we need to. (I guess grandma will not be sitting in the third row!)
I think having the kids (all below 2 years old) within reach and able to load them in without climbing all the way into the van is important enough to deal with the trouble of climbing into the third row.
But, any thoughts you have on the matter, having lived through it, are appreciated.
I think that the Sienna is a well put together minivan. The split fold away rear seats, the windows that go down, and the option of having 2 across the middle row makes it the perfect option for families with many young kids.
I think the situation which gstrot was alluding to was the situation in which all of the 2nd row seats are occupied by carseats which would make the flip/fold procedure impossible. In which case one could still access the 3rd row by folding 1/3 down and crawling in through the open rear hatch.
Of course, it all depends on how athletic grandma is feeling that day....
an easier way would be for one person, let's say Grandma, to get out, flip and fold, let the other person get in the 3rd seat, then Grandma puts the 2nd seat back, buckles up, closes the door and away you go.
Given this scenario, it might work better if the kid got in on the other side;o)).
I hope future mini van buyers are reading about all the problems of Toyota's new mini van. If they are they might look for another brand.
I'm sure not satisfied with ours and it only has just short of 5,000 miles. Here are some of the things I don't like:
Worse A/c I've ever had in a new vehicle. Worse steering of any new vehicle. It is horrible in the wind. It will cost you an arm and a leg if you get hit in the rear.
I hope there is nothing else. It's going to be a long two years before we get rid of it.
Given how short the supply is on the Sienna. I bet you could almost sell it now for what you paid.
Tell you what, I just bought a Sienna. But, if you really want to get out of the vehicle, tell me what you need to get out and I will see what I can do. Have you been in an accident with it?
We were going to try and wait until next spring so we could keep our by then almost-paid-for F150 SuperCab. We want/need 8 seats so that we can take our family of 4 plus my SIL's family of 4 on vacation next year.
That has us looking at the Pilot, Sienna LE8 and the Suburban/Yukon XL. No Sienna's around to look at now, with any number of seats (missed seeing an LE8 by a day).
Pilot means putting luggage on the roof; owners are reporting lousy mileage anyway (often worse than my 15+ mpg mixed-driving in my F150). That would be horrible, I'm sure, once loaded with 8 people and the luggage airdam on the roof. Plus I don't relish fighting cross winds through the mountains with such height.
So, we were too tempted by the 2003 deals on a Yukon XL SLE and bought it last week. We got a deal, $30,679 + TTL with side steps, front buckets (middle and 3rd row benches make it 8 passenger), Bose stereo, and cargo package (roof rack cross pieces, cargo cover, net and mat). We also had to sell the F150 (but got $2,000 more than the trade-in offer by going to CarMax with it). So, I'll have to buy a commuter car (something used, cheap, safe, reliable, and gas-efficient?) next summer before our eldest starts kindergarten.
Now I know this is a terrible place to say this board, but I've always liked the looks of the Yukon XL much better anyway. And I must say that the cargo space behind the 3rd row is cavernous; certainly much more than anything else short of a Greyhound. While the measurements seem to even give the Sienna equal spacious seating, it doesn't sound like that from what you all are saying. I can tell you that the Yukon XL has taken two car seats (the kind with the padded arm that comes down over the kids' heads, so they are wider than average with the pivot points) and still left a space in the middle big enough for 230 lbs. of this 5'10" Daddy to sit there comfortable (my 5'too wife is even more comfortable there).
Oh yeah, since my wife was used to parking the behemoth F150 (6 inches longer than the Yukon XL), she was more than gratifed to find that the Yukon XL has a turning radius that would take it just inside that of the F150 SuperCab. Parking is now a relative dream for us. Of course, I must admit that ours would be scraping the outside of the Sienna turning next to us! ;-)
The 04 Toyota/Lexus automatic A/C, climate control, has undergone some very radical changes/upgrades, "neural networking" and all that. So I would think it would be dramatically improved over the previous versions.
The A/C doesn't cool as well as those vehicles I've had in the past. My Ford extented cab pickup cools better.
The ability to drive in windy conditions is my biggest grip plus it doesn't steer very well on curves. This is the problem I dislike the most. We had three mini vans in the past and none steered this poorly. I don't expect it to steel like our New Beetle.
I've never felt wind like I do in the Sienna................
As for getting nearly the same price as paid. Well, I'm not interested in buying in bridges.
If you own a 2004, then you probably already know about the design flaw with the personal lights. That is, if someone manually turns on a personal light (when the front switch is set at "door"), then it will not turn off after you turn off the car and leave it, unless you also happen to leave a door open. This means that you can run down your battery if the kids leave their personal light on, and you don't go back to check for lights 30 minutes after turning off the car. I called and complained, and they said they have received some complaints, but haven't made a fix for it. The more complaints, the quicker the fix, is my thought. So please, call Toyota at 800-go-toyota and tell them to fix this (and retro-fix it at no charge for us)...
Owners who have manual heat (as opposed to the electronic, automatic heat), when you have the rear seat heat set to the hotest, and the air coming out the top vents, is the air hot? I am receiving conflicting reports of whether or not hot air should be coming out of these vents from the Toyota dealer and Toyota customer service...
I can't say for sure about the Sienna, but my 01 RX has no shutoff to stop the hot water flow through the heatercore(s). If the lack of cooling continues to bug you, check this and if necessary add a manual water flow shutoff.
Hi! I have a 4yr old, a 1 year old, and expecting twins in February. We recently purchased a 2004 Toyota Sienna XLE, 7 passenger and love it.
I've seen several posts about the 8-passenger model and would reccomend against trying to put three carseats in the same row (2nd row). They really won't fit.
The only way you could probalby make that work is if you were to get a large full-size SUV and even that is going to be a tough fit.
We're in the same boat as you, really, except worse. I'll have three infant car seats and a booster seat to deal with very soon.
This is what we did:
1) I moved the 2nd row captain chair, (nice and wide...works great for carseats...and have the tether hooks and latches), into the center position so there is kind of a "bench seat" now in the second row.
2) Access to the third row is very convenient now because of a nice opening provided by moving the passenger-side 2nd row captain chair to the center position. I have a toddler and an infant carseat side-by-side in this setup right now and there is PLENTY of room for both seats.
3) When the twins come, they'll get the 2nd row...two infant seats side-by-side.
4) My 1-yr old will get the passenger-side position in the third row and my 4yr old will have to crawl back, (piece of cake for her), to her booster chair which will be in the 3rd row driver's side position.
This configuration will put the twins within reach of the passenger seat, and on long trips, the removable center console will be a HUGE benefit to allow my wife to have better access to the second row.
Our 4-yr old daughter is very helpful and will keep the 1-yr old happy.
This works for us. We searched high and low for solutions and looked at everything from Cadillac Escalades to Toyota Sequoias...and finally settled on the new Sienna.
I truely believe we made an EXCELLENT decision. We bought it brand new for full list price this summer and currently have 3000 miles on it. The gas mileage and engine power are great. We're running about 25mpg with 80% in-town heavy traffic driving.
The automatic doors, built-in sun shades, quick-fold-down rear seats, and the VERY NICE ride make this van a REAL winner.
My only complaint is that the stereo system is very poor. We spent extra and got the "JBL Synthesis" system and have been extremely disapointed in the quality of the sound. I guess it's safe to say that if you have a Nissan with a Bose system in it...make sure you can live without the quality sound in your Nissan if you want this Toyota. The stereo just isn't the same.
Perhaps I am not as finicky as some owners. I certainly do not agree with one tenth of the complaints I read on these message boards. I find the 2004 Sienna to be a very quiet and stable vehicle with all sorts of great features. However, there have been a number of posts concerning the location and style of the gear shift and I feel there is a problem here. I don't want to get emotional and discuss how cool or pretentious the gated shifter may appear to various people. I want to note some of its serious disadvantages and ask if any else has encountered them. In the first place the shift does not lock in gear i.e. no thumb button needs to be depressed in order to move the stick out of gear. The gating is supposed to prevent this. The problem is that it does not prevent the gear from being shifted. I have acccidently brushed my hand and against the stick while reaching for the heating controls and knocked it into neutral four times while driving. This is easy to do as the stick is directly in front of these oft adjusted controls. With the car parked, I have tested the ease with which the gear may be slapped into reverse. Guess what! its not too hard to do either. One fairly solid flick of the wrist in the right (or wrong) direction is all it takes. The consequences of this when driving could be dire. There are any number of concievable ways this could occur. An intinctive grab for a pizza or a birthday cake sliding off the front seat is all it would take, or perhaps one of the 2x4s dad was picking up at the lumber yard sliding forward, or even someone gesticulating during an argument. Try it yourself with the car safely parked and see.
Should be in the Sienna problems discussion board.
The complaint about the A/C is funny for me, b/c I have a friend of mine who had already a Ford and GM car, and then driven a Toyota, and he always telling me that Toyota's A/C does not cool as good as Ford & GM. He tried it many times with several cars - all the same conclusion.
I test-drove already a Ford Freestar, but I can't get my hands on a Sienna. Yesterday one came in at my local dealer, today it wasn't there any more. I once found one sitting on the lot, but the dealer showed me the 'SOLD' tag, so it couldn't be used for a test drive. I guess I'll have to wait until they'll have enough Sienna's in stock. I would like to try it personal before writing my comments.
I have no problem with the shifter at all. Even for thumb button non-gated shifter, most do not have lock between "D" and neutral anyways. As far as accidental shifting from D to R, I just can't see how this can happen without deliberate action.
> D to N should just require a nudge in ALL automatics. Thats how its designed.
As usual, there are exceptions. E.g. Volvo XC90 T6 (i.e. you need to press the button to go from D to N!). But for some reason, this does not apply to the 2.5T model.... Go figure!
I my opinion Toyota and Lexus, likely Nippondenso actually, go out their way with regards human body comfort when the vehicle's HVAC is in cooling mode.
I firmly believe the A/C system has more than enough cooling capacity for the given vehicle. The problem(??) is that the designers have striven mightly to make the system as unobtrusive as is possible.
To that end if you get into the vehicle on a really hot sunny day and the interior is thoroughly overheated the airflow still will not be so cold, nor the flow rate exceedingly high, that you will feel chilled for those few minutes it takes to flush the vehicle's hot atmosphere.
Even once the system is at of near the setpoint, say 72F, the system's cooling airflow still be will be less cool and at a lower speed, than that which you might experience in an earlier or less sophisticated design, insofar as cooling is concerned.
Comments
I just bought another set of floormats. I wanted to get all-weater mats, rubber style, for winter use so these cloth ones don't look so bad in a few years. I got a good internet price (toyotapart.com) and then showed the dealer and he honored it. Anyhow, on the same website, the cloth OEM mats sell for $131.25. A pretty good discount!
The OEM ones are great, as they have special mounting hole for a floor pin to go thru so they don't slip.
As the engine idles down the rear wheels will most likely regain some level of traction. Most certainly so as the engine passes through the "sweet spot", wherein it's providing neither leading nor lagging torque. It's at that exact time that the vehicle will begin to right (look where the rear wheels are pointed, back toward the original direction of travel) itsself with the original direction of travel.
As yes, eventually the engine will start providing lagging, braking torque, and assuming an automatic transmssion, not a very strong level of lagging torque.
Having just regained roadbed traction it is now likely that the effect will be one of adding enough braking at the rear to help swing the vehicle back into line.
All this with the operator having done absolutely nothing but lift the throttle.
FWD. Same scenario, but remember that this time the loss of traction is due to two separate parameters, the side force on the front tires being used to overcome forward straight line momentum, and the forward driving force of the engine.
So, by instinct, I lift the throttle. This time, absent my also turning the steering wheel to neutral (and since the vehicle is no longer following the steering inputs, just exactly where is neutral?), the front tires will still enter the zone of no leading nor lagging torque, but may not regain traction due to the lateral force.
But, granted, leading torque will begin to be reduced as the engine RPM declines to idle, and maybe, maybe, 50% of the time roadbed traction will be regained and the vehicle again starts to follow your steering input.
But now your enter the zone of lagging engine torque. If you're in that area above, 50% of the time, roadbed traction was regained, you may just be in luck.
If you're unlucky enough to be in that other 50%, well, what type of flowers would you like on your casket?
I just can't put myself in the mindset of thinking that consentrating the lateral and driving forces on one set of roadbed contact patches instead of spreading them across four is better.
You're basically saying that spreading the driving forces across four tires, AWD/4WD, doesn't help.
Um, no, I'm not. Although now I can see how you could be confused regarding certain statements by our president.
With AWD/4WD, there is an ability to transfer power to all 4 wheels. Hopefully (and depending on the design of the transfer system), power is transfer to the wheels with traction.
However, by definition, RWD and FWD are both 2wd systems. Please keep the discussion concentrated therein.
Again, when slowing, either through releasing the gas or applying the brakes, there is weight transfer to the front. Period. Makes no difference whether we are discussing 'leading torque' or 'lagging torque' or 'braking torque' or any other kind of torque. You slow - you get weight transfer to the front. Period.
Now, if you are oversteering with a RWD car (loss of control due to excess power in a turn), weight transfer to the front will reduce traction at the rear. The rear has already lost traction (oversteering). Now, you have further reduced traction (weight transfer). Result? Rear end passes the front.
If you are understeering with the FWD car (loss of control due to excess power at the front in a turn), the front end is sliding out. Weight transfer to the front WILL help to regain traction.
Have you been to any schools for high performance driving? Done any practice with the reactions of FWD cars vs RWD cars on a wet skidpad? It's amazing the difference I experienced between Taurus SHO's and Mustang GT's when I took a course with Bondurant. The Taurus would wash out on the skidpad; all it took was letting up on the gas a bit and the nose would tuck back in line (weight transfer to front = regained traction). The Mustangs were more prone to swapping ends.
Isn't pertinent here.
What we're talking about here is,
SURPRISE!
You've just lost tractive force with the roadbed, no mental preparation, just, "Oh..... :<( "
FWD, you're already understeering, how do you manage to shift the weight to the front via front braking if the front has already lost traction?
But, we might as well end this now I don't think either of us will be able to convince the other. At least from my side, my mind is made up.
So, Conventional or Canard?
What not having a locked wheel will do for your is miinmize the (locked wheels have less traction) stopping distance and reduce the chance that the locked wheel will contribute to a skid/spin. If you do spin because you have exceeded the available traction, it may keep the wheel turning if you haven't taken your foot off the brake.
ABS is a great system, it can allow any ham handed git the opportunity to get nearly the maximum braking possible for the traction available from the surface and your tires. This assumes the ham handed moron doesn't let up on the brake pedal because they are discomfited by the pulsations of the system. Which is where the new systems come in, brake assist ensures that when you begin braking you will apply maximum braking until you release the brake pedal completely. EBD or electronic brake distribution assists in electronically distributing the braking force front to rear and left to right to get the most braking out of the available traction at each wheel. VSC uses all the existing ABS componentry and additional sensors to ascertain the initentions of the driver relative to the actual dynamic behavior of the vehicle and uses the braking system to ensure control by applying braking to individual wheels.
Vehicle stability control works under braking or during any other manuver to keep the vehicle under control, it uses the same brakes, pressure pump and sensors to tell what each wheel is doing. It can work while your vehicle is accelerating, decelerating or coasting. It is all about assisting in keeping the vehicle from spinning (oversteering) or pushing (understeering) off the road or into oncoming traffic.
ABS may have been mistakenly identified as a way to fewer accidents. I think what it shows is that most drivers drive too fast for conditions and follow too closely. No matter how efficient ABS can brake, if there is not enough distance to stop before hitting another object you will hit it. I don't think they should have touted it as a savior as peoples base driving habits are so poor.
As for it costing 2900, yeah you can look at it that way, which is overly simplistic. VW has it as a separate option that can be applied to any model for 300. I think VWs option package strategy is much better than Toyotas. VW includes side and side curtain airbags as standard on all models from the cheapest to the most expensive (except the Eurovan, another strike against gettin one). All around a better approach in my view. Sadly the new Bus won't be available for another two years.
Out of curiosity, did any of you read any of the links I posted? Particularly you Mr West?
I have spent quite a few weekends on race courses with the Porsche club as well as innumerable days on autocross courses, frozen lakes and hillclimbs. Although I am not national champion caliber, I can drive fairly well. I know what my car and myself are capable of in all weather conditions. I ensure that I have my vehicles in the best condition possible to give me every chance of keeping control. 4 snow tires in winter, tires with legal tread the rest of the year for wet and dry traction.
As has been said many times here, its about the driver and a poorly prepared, poorly educated driver (as most are) is going to have accidents regardless of the equipment they use.
Thank you for your input.
[silly me for thinking there could be a connection between the hesitation some posters were reporting in turns and the VSC technology].
my humblest apologies to anyone tolerating what may appear rather esoteric.
floormats...i can't believe they're an option!
someday, someone else will be saying the same thing about VSC as an option.
I have driven hundreds of miles in the wintertime in snow and ice storms, MT, WY, CO, ID, etc, and typcially arrived at the destination totally exhausted, mentally and physically. So I will be one of the first to say that it is beyond human capability to sustain the level of attention one must have pushing the edge at PIR for hour upon hour in the wintertime in adverse conditions.
So, SURPRISE, wake up, the rear is trying to pass the front!
And I'm really not one to denigrate my fellow posters, but would one of the moderators step in here and advise our audience of the real purpose and functionality of ABS?
The following is taken directly from my 2001 AWD RX300 owner's manual, page 199, left column, top.
"Anti-lock brake system is not designed to shorten the stopping distance: Always drive at the moderate speed and maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front of you. Compared with vehicles without an anti-lock brake system, your vehicle may require a longer stopping distance in the following cases.
* Driving on rough, gravel or snow-covered roads.
* Driving with tire chains installed
* Driving over steps such as joints in the road.
* Driving on roads where the road surface is pitted or has other difference in surface height."
END QUOTE.
I would add glare ice to the list but the above is certain a good start.
Folks can get themselves killed out there listening to, and believing, posters who seem to be knowledgable about ABS, saying it results in shortened stopping distances.
PLEASE.
> Similarly, VCS sounds like a great idea. But the jury is out.
Well, data are coming in confirming the safety benefits:
The one car safety feature you need now (CNN)
"Now two studies from Europe and Japan -- where consumers have more widely embraced the systems -- confirm what I've long believed: that stability control may be second only to seat belts in safeguarding drivers and passengers.
Toyota found that electronic stability control reduced single-vehicle crashes in Japan by a remarkable 35 percent and head-on crashes by 30 percent. And in the European study, Mercedes-Benz, whose lineup has sported ESC as a standard feature since 1999, reported a 29 percent drop in single-vehicle accidents; crashes of all types fell 15 percent.
Those kinds of results could prevent as many as 6,000 of the nearly 43,000 crash-related deaths each year in the U.S. -- dramatically more than air bags, which have saved about 800 lives annually since 1987, according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA)."
For those with doubts about Toyota's VSC system, here's a very technical analysis of Toyota's VSC and Mercedes' ESP system in LX470 and ML320 by NHTSA.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/SAE/SAE2001/Forken1.PDF
Even though the tests was for roll over tendency, the data is very interesting. Check out the data and the graphs, VSC is devastatingly effective in LX470. It practically transformed the vehicle response.
To mdell2 regarding Sequoia in intersections. He probably wouldn't make it through the intersection in the first place had it not the VSC cut in - he probably would have spun out. As for the Landcruiser in the ditch - you still cannot defy the law of physics. That guy was driving way too fast, and nothing could save you if you don't slow down. As for your question "Did I make a mistake?", I would not hesitate to say "Yes, you did make a mistake." If you can afford it and have a chance to change your order to include VSC and side airbag, do so now, you won't regret it. Both will be standard item in future models.
To wwest: you have little idea how VSC works. Your insistance of applying both rear brakes showed your flawed understanding of car dynamics. No ESP/VSC systems work like this.
And why do you keep churning out this lengthy FWD/RWD debates time after time despite the plea from the moderator to take them elsewhere?
I think you read more into what some of us wrote than was there. No one said ABS will get you better stopping distances. What I wrote was that ABS will give you the best possible stopping distances in a given condition.
There are two exceptions to this, on gravel roads and roads with a significant build up of packing snow. The reason for this is that on gravel or packable snow, you can build up a wedge of material in front of a locked tire that can contribute to shorter stopping distances than a rolling wheel controlled by ABS can deliver.
ABS can deliver near expert driver braking distances time after time for a given road condition. Few drivers, me included, would qualify as expert drivers especially every minute they are driving. Many people do have unreasonable expectations of ABS's capabilities, if your car needs 180 feet to stop from a given speed on a clean road, it can deliver. If you are following too closely or driving too fast for conditions it cannot perform a miracle to stop you sooner.
I have been very careful to provide information from the OE manufacturer, what I have written has been from personal experience, extensive reading of SAE papers along with other sources.
As for getting people injured, the horse puckey that you have been spreading on this and several other boards about front wheel drive and your ways of overcoming presumed limitations are dangerous. You have never presented information that support your flawed ideas. You are welcome to your opinions, you are welcome to your flawed ideas and presumptions, but don't flaunt them as facts in the face of honest debate and then shuffle off grumpy with "you can't change my opinion".
If the moderators want me to go away, fine, I can post elsewhere and continue to read here. I have been trying to respond to what I see as misinformation given what I know from my education and personal interests. People are welcome to make decisions on what they should buy, I find it worrisome when they make the decision on the basis of flawed and incorrect information. If I have provided incorrect information, or explained things in a way that is misleading, let me know. I will do my best to clarify it or correct it. I have yet to have that brought to my attention in a way that shows me what is incorrect from a credible source beyond opinion.
If you wish to just talk about FWD and RWD, you should make posts regarding those and not interject those thoughts in every discussion.
Out of courtesy for those wishing to talk about less technical aspects of this vehicle, further conversation along this route will be deleted. Thanks!
kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I think the $73 was a good deal as they are a custom fit and high quality. The 3rd row, however, is just a rectagular shape and seems overpriced still. I won't return it, but if I was to do it again I might take the dimensions and look for a cheaper one that fit or buy and cut material from Home Depot.
I like to keep my new vehicle costs south of $20K so some of these features won't interest me until they trickle down to the bread and butter vehicles.
Boy, this discussion sure has gotten off topic. I pledge not to post here anymore. Back to 2004+ Sienna, of which I have no interest other than to keep track of the minivan competition. It is currently too expensive and too large for our needs. Toyota needs a short wheel base version with seats that can be instantly evaporated and recondensed in the van with the touch of a button. Beam me up Scottie!
kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I went to my Toyota dealer but they only had a 7 passenger on the lot. So, I was unable to see if the three car seats fit!
Does anyone know how wide the middle row seats are in the 8 passenger seating? Will three car seats fit?
Thanks for your help.
I think long term we will have two in the middle and the third child in the back row (or maybe two of the three if they want to get away from mommy and daddy).
But, in the short term, I think having the third seat in the 2nd row makes sense as long as they all fit across.
I agree that in five years we will have to remove the middle seat and send a kid to the back. But, my immediate concern is loading up the third kid in the way back third row. I guess my other concern is the two older kids beating up the younger kid in the middle seat.
For my purposes, the important statement is that a car seat would fit in the middle row. Just for clarification, does that mean you feel that THREE car seats would fit across the middle bench?
Thanks for your feedback. Very helpful.
Edmunds.com Announces Editors' Most Wanted Awards for 2004 Model Year (Yahoo)
Oh yeah, Yahoo in the parentheses up there refers to the article source, but Sienna owners are permitted to chime in with their own Yahoos :-).
Steve, Host
We ordered a LE 8 passenger (even though we have only 3 kids) so we could have them all in the second row for long journeys. We also wanted to be able to carry all our kids and have each of them bring a friend if they wanted to in the future or for field trips.
We expect that our day to day configuration will have the second row right seat removed to make easy access to the rear seat/door and allow my wife to enter and exit the van with the kids through the powered door. If you go with removing the middle second row seat you end up with a very generous aisle to go down the middle. Much more room than a normal van with seats in the standard position.
The Sienna was the only safe mini van that offered seating for 8. The combo of multiple reconfigurable seats was an unbeatable combination in a safe, reliable and relatively affordable vehicle was an unbeatable combination.
I am guessing with the split rear seat, we can always drop one of the sides and access the rear seat through the rear hatch if we need to. (I guess grandma will not be sitting in the third row!)
I think having the kids (all below 2 years old) within reach and able to load them in without climbing all the way into the van is important enough to deal with the trouble of climbing into the third row.
But, any thoughts you have on the matter, having lived through it, are appreciated.
I think that the Sienna is a well put together minivan. The split fold away rear seats, the windows that go down, and the option of having 2 across the middle row makes it the perfect option for families with many young kids.
Of course, it all depends on how athletic grandma is feeling that day....
Given this scenario, it might work better if the kid got in on the other side;o)).
I'm sure not satisfied with ours and it only has just short of 5,000 miles. Here are some of the things I don't like:
Worse A/c I've ever had in a new vehicle.
Worse steering of any new vehicle.
It is horrible in the wind.
It will cost you an arm and a leg if you get hit in the rear.
I hope there is nothing else. It's going to be a long two years before we get rid of it.
Tell you what, I just bought a Sienna. But, if you really want to get out of the vehicle, tell me what you need to get out and I will see what I can do. Have you been in an accident with it?
That has us looking at the Pilot, Sienna LE8 and the Suburban/Yukon XL. No Sienna's around to look at now, with any number of seats (missed seeing an LE8 by a day).
Pilot means putting luggage on the roof; owners are reporting lousy mileage anyway (often worse than my 15+ mpg mixed-driving in my F150). That would be horrible, I'm sure, once loaded with 8 people and the luggage airdam on the roof. Plus I don't relish fighting cross winds through the mountains with such height.
So, we were too tempted by the 2003 deals on a Yukon XL SLE and bought it last week. We got a deal, $30,679 + TTL with side steps, front buckets (middle and 3rd row benches make it 8 passenger), Bose stereo, and cargo package (roof rack cross pieces, cargo cover, net and mat). We also had to sell the F150 (but got $2,000 more than the trade-in offer by going to CarMax with it). So, I'll have to buy a commuter car (something used, cheap, safe, reliable, and gas-efficient?) next summer before our eldest starts kindergarten.
Now I know this is a terrible place to say this board, but I've always liked the looks of the Yukon XL much better anyway. And I must say that the cargo space behind the 3rd row is cavernous; certainly much more than anything else short of a Greyhound. While the measurements seem to even give the Sienna equal spacious seating, it doesn't sound like that from what you all are saying. I can tell you that the Yukon XL has taken two car seats (the kind with the padded arm that comes down over the kids' heads, so they are wider than average with the pivot points) and still left a space in the middle big enough for 230 lbs. of this 5'10" Daddy to sit there comfortable (my 5'too wife is even more comfortable there).
Oh yeah, since my wife was used to parking the behemoth F150 (6 inches longer than the Yukon XL), she was more than gratifed to find that the Yukon XL has a turning radius that would take it just inside that of the F150 SuperCab. Parking is now a relative dream for us. Of course, I must admit that ours would be scraping the outside of the Sienna turning next to us! ;-)
We are happy. May the same happen to you all too!
Your A/C complaints are??
I may be able to help, or at least explain.
The 04 Toyota/Lexus automatic A/C, climate control, has undergone some very radical changes/upgrades, "neural networking" and all that. So I would think it would be dramatically improved over the previous versions.
The ability to drive in windy conditions is my biggest grip plus it doesn't steer very well on curves. This is the problem I dislike the most. We had three mini vans in the past and none steered this poorly. I don't expect it to steel like our New Beetle.
I've never felt wind like I do in the Sienna................
As for getting nearly the same price as paid. Well, I'm not interested in buying in bridges.
I've seen several posts about the 8-passenger model and would reccomend against trying to put three carseats in the same row (2nd row). They really won't fit.
The only way you could probalby make that work is if you were to get a large full-size SUV and even that is going to be a tough fit.
We're in the same boat as you, really, except worse. I'll have three infant car seats and a booster seat to deal with very soon.
This is what we did:
1) I moved the 2nd row captain chair, (nice and wide...works great for carseats...and have the tether hooks and latches), into the center position so there is kind of a "bench seat" now in the second row.
2) Access to the third row is very convenient now because of a nice opening provided by moving the passenger-side 2nd row captain chair to the center position. I have a toddler and an infant carseat side-by-side in this setup right now and there is PLENTY of room for both seats.
3) When the twins come, they'll get the 2nd row...two infant seats side-by-side.
4) My 1-yr old will get the passenger-side position in the third row and my 4yr old will have to crawl back, (piece of cake for her), to her booster chair which will be in the 3rd row driver's side position.
This configuration will put the twins within reach of the passenger seat, and on long trips, the removable center console will be a HUGE benefit to allow my wife to have better access to the second row.
Our 4-yr old daughter is very helpful and will keep the 1-yr old happy.
This works for us. We searched high and low for solutions and looked at everything from Cadillac Escalades to Toyota Sequoias...and finally settled on the new Sienna.
I truely believe we made an EXCELLENT decision. We bought it brand new for full list price this summer and currently have 3000 miles on it. The gas mileage and engine power are great. We're running about 25mpg with 80% in-town heavy traffic driving.
The automatic doors, built-in sun shades, quick-fold-down rear seats, and the VERY NICE ride make this van a REAL winner.
My only complaint is that the stereo system is very poor. We spent extra and got the "JBL Synthesis" system and have been extremely disapointed in the quality of the sound. I guess it's safe to say that if you have a Nissan with a Bose system in it...make sure you can live without the quality sound in your Nissan if you want this Toyota. The stereo just isn't the same.
The complaint about the A/C is funny for me, b/c I have a friend of mine who had already a Ford and GM car, and then driven a Toyota, and he always telling me that Toyota's A/C does not cool as good as Ford & GM. He tried it many times with several cars - all the same conclusion.
I test-drove already a Ford Freestar, but I can't get my hands on a Sienna. Yesterday one came in at my local dealer, today it wasn't there any more. I once found one sitting on the lot, but the dealer showed me the 'SOLD' tag, so it couldn't be used for a test drive. I guess I'll have to wait until they'll have enough Sienna's in stock. I would like to try it personal before writing my comments.
Toyota Sienna 2004+ problems
Steve, Host
As usual, there are exceptions. E.g. Volvo XC90 T6 (i.e. you need to press the button to go from D to N!). But for some reason, this does not apply to the 2.5T model.... Go figure!
I firmly believe the A/C system has more than enough cooling capacity for the given vehicle. The problem(??) is that the designers have striven mightly to make the system as unobtrusive as is possible.
To that end if you get into the vehicle on a really hot sunny day and the interior is thoroughly overheated the airflow still will not be so cold, nor the flow rate exceedingly high, that you will feel chilled for those few minutes it takes to flush the vehicle's hot atmosphere.
Even once the system is at of near the setpoint, say 72F, the system's cooling airflow still be will be less cool and at a lower speed, than that which you might experience in an earlier or less sophisticated design, insofar as cooling is concerned.