Why do people keep buying new trucks?
powerisfun
Member Posts: 358
in General
I know the economy is good and everyone has more
money, but why are people willing to shell out
enormous amounts of money for a new car or truck
every few years and take such a loss on their
trade-ins to boot. Leasing is not much better, if
at all. Most cars will run very reliably for well
over 100,000 miles if properly maintained, yet
people seem willing to just hand over their moola
to get a new one. A lot of people do so in the
name of "reliability". Well, if you've read some
of the posts on this board, you'll see that new
cars and trucks are just as UNreliable, if not
more so, than a car that is 5 years old.
It's this very phenomenon that gives the UAW
all that power. Imagine if everyone kept their
vehicle for 10+ years (which is very doable, by
the way). Auto workers would be making what they
should be making: minimum wage or slightly above.
Because of this drive (no pun intended), the
average line-worker makes a lot more than a
tenured college professor, about double (with a
little overtime) what an experienced teacher makes.
Way more than skilled secretaries, tons more than
just about everyone except professionals with
high-level degrees. And with some overtime, they
can match those salaries, too. Cars are priced so
high because we seem willing to pay those salaries.
I, for one, have decided to refuse to do that
more than once a decade.
Buying used is only slightly better, because
the person who sold it to you (or traded it)
probably did so to buy a new car. The best choice
is to just keep the vehicles that you have for
longer. Just keeping it for 6 years instead of 3
would help to show both the UAW and the car
companies that we're tired of paying those prices.
Do you really need that new one, or is it just
a something that you want because you think
it will make your life better?
Just for the record, I'm not against buying new
cars, in fact, I just bought a new truck in '98,
but my previous vehicle was an '81 Blazer with
212,000 miles on it. I'll be keeping my '98 till
at least '08. My wife has an '89 Buick LeSabre
with 153,000 miles on it (still runs like a champ!)
and we'll be keeping that for at least 2 more
years and possibly quite a bit more. This is not
because we can't afford a new car. We are very
comfortable financially (especially for our ages,
32 and 30). We just can't imagine giving our money
away so often.
-powerisfun
money, but why are people willing to shell out
enormous amounts of money for a new car or truck
every few years and take such a loss on their
trade-ins to boot. Leasing is not much better, if
at all. Most cars will run very reliably for well
over 100,000 miles if properly maintained, yet
people seem willing to just hand over their moola
to get a new one. A lot of people do so in the
name of "reliability". Well, if you've read some
of the posts on this board, you'll see that new
cars and trucks are just as UNreliable, if not
more so, than a car that is 5 years old.
It's this very phenomenon that gives the UAW
all that power. Imagine if everyone kept their
vehicle for 10+ years (which is very doable, by
the way). Auto workers would be making what they
should be making: minimum wage or slightly above.
Because of this drive (no pun intended), the
average line-worker makes a lot more than a
tenured college professor, about double (with a
little overtime) what an experienced teacher makes.
Way more than skilled secretaries, tons more than
just about everyone except professionals with
high-level degrees. And with some overtime, they
can match those salaries, too. Cars are priced so
high because we seem willing to pay those salaries.
I, for one, have decided to refuse to do that
more than once a decade.
Buying used is only slightly better, because
the person who sold it to you (or traded it)
probably did so to buy a new car. The best choice
is to just keep the vehicles that you have for
longer. Just keeping it for 6 years instead of 3
would help to show both the UAW and the car
companies that we're tired of paying those prices.
Do you really need that new one, or is it just
a something that you want because you think
it will make your life better?
Just for the record, I'm not against buying new
cars, in fact, I just bought a new truck in '98,
but my previous vehicle was an '81 Blazer with
212,000 miles on it. I'll be keeping my '98 till
at least '08. My wife has an '89 Buick LeSabre
with 153,000 miles on it (still runs like a champ!)
and we'll be keeping that for at least 2 more
years and possibly quite a bit more. This is not
because we can't afford a new car. We are very
comfortable financially (especially for our ages,
32 and 30). We just can't imagine giving our money
away so often.
-powerisfun
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Comments
Trust me: I'm from far a union defender but I don't think they could find many workers today to do such boring work for less than 8-10 an hour. 22 an hour? Yes. That is crazy but 14 or 16 wouldn't be outrageous.
Keeping cars awhile? I thought a poll came out recently and showed that the "average" car is over 10 years old which is the oldest an "average" car has been. I own old and new trucks but it really depends on the individual model of durability.
and tedious as popping rivots all day. For example, I worked in a machine shop right out of high school to pay for college. I had to work at a punch press for 8-hours a day, pressing out the same little metal shapes over and over. I made $5.00/hour (this was 10 years ago). That was about right for the skill level. $14-16 per hour?
Even that's outrageous when ANYONE (with a few hours/days training) can do those jobs. I think $8-12/hour is about right and where it should be.
Put it this way, if somehow all the Unions disappeared tomorrow and the wages went down to $8-12/hour, most of the workers would still stay with the job because they know that anywhere else
they went with their skills would offer far less.
And those who did leave would easily be replaced.
Please note I'm not talking about the skilled labors like machinists, tool & die makers, electricians, etc. They deserve a competitive pay rate, but still I think you'll see that if you compared the wage of the skilled workers in the UAW, you'd find they are making at least 50% more than their unfortunate peers who aren't working directly for the automotive industry.
I'm not sure that the "average" age of all cars is a good indicator here. Many of those cars have changed hands at least once or twice and when one person sold it, they probably bought a new one to replace it. I think that's a good indicator that there are more cars on the road than ever before. I don't know, perhaps I'm a bit biased because I live in a neighborhood where everyone has new cars and trades in after 2-3 years.
I'm just spouting off here. I know it's never going to change. People love new cars.
-powerisfun
I guess its just the American way, buy, buy, buy.
I definitely do agree that you did the right thing though by trading in the Lightning. The F250 is so much more practical and beautiful. Not that the Lightning is ugly or anything, but those
super duty trucks are great looking vehicles. I saw a Burgundy crew-cab parked at the grocery store the other day that I just couldn't stop looking at. I imagine it's quite a bit higher than the Lightning as well. I'm a fellow truck-drivin' man ('98 GMC K1500 x-cab) and I like sitting higher than traffic. Anyway, good luck with it.
-powerisfun
P.S. You probably know this, but since you only drive 5000 mi/year, make sure your insurance company knows that. You should get a discount.
A decision marker for me is when the truck ceases to save me money and begins open bleeding.
If you buy the right "hot" vehicle..it works out good. Trucks are the way to go for residual value. Granted I can get GMO discount..but even non GM employees can get damn good deals now days with Invoice being so easy to find out on the net.
My 2000 2500 Cost $27,762 before tax and destination. In 2 years I bet I sell it for $25K or more. Even with tax..just over $30K
$5K over 2 years = $208 a month for a 34K truck. not bad eh?
A buddy of mine drives a new Z-71 every 2 years. he averages about a cost of $12K every 3 trucks.
Why pay 5 years of payments for the same truck when you can drive 3 new trucks in 6-7 years?
It's all how you want to look at it I guess? I used to be able to drive one for 11 years..now with the miles I drive..it's just not an option. I could run it into the ground...but a 2 year old one would be better to do that than a new one. The value of that kind of truck is so low...that it's best to buy used to take more of a loss.....to me that is?
The 11 year old one still rode nice...but I'll take the brand new feel any day.
We make good money..have no kids...save more than enough for the future..so why not? Beats leaving it to family members....LOL
- Tim
In my case...when I sell it in 2 years and pay off the loan (which was zero down)..I have $6500 left over
...Take the total of payments minus the 6500 and it works out to be about $325 a month it costed me "actual" after finance charges
Still way better than used.
- Tim
I'm going to ask a personal question so you don't have to answer if you don't want: What do you do for a living? Do you work for GM? Just asking....
Where's my Dunkel?
I don't work for GM...just am able to get all 3 companies discounts thru family members.
My dad and I own a Coffee/Vending service. We service Mostly offices...but have quite a few gas stations and C-stores. We do the Coffee/cappuccino..etc etc etc. It sounds strange..but take a look in the local phone book. There has got to be 50 or so just around here. I get to meet a lot of people..and be my own boss. It pays good also. You can basically decide your own pay...just get more accounts!
Wife works for...I hate to say this...Daimler Chrysler World Head Quarters. Together we make good money.
Dunkell?
I drank it all!
Here's the empty!
http://www.teleweb.net/mgdvhman/TooLateRoc.jpg
heheheheheeeee
- Tim
If I think you are nosey....I think I might tell you..what do you think?
hehehee
- Tim
2- I can.
It has been asked,
"do you really need that new one, or is it just a something that you want because you think it will make your life better?"
Well, I traded my bagged-out 89 Mustang in for a new 99 Tacoma 4x4 and, come to think of it, it HAS made my life better... a LOT better.
When you live in a world connected by roads (covered with snow most of the year), you can't even HAVE a life without mobility.
My .02
I don't get that. All cars / trucks / Toyotas (teehee) are new at some point. If they are reliable they are more likely to be kept than ones that have problems - so how can older ones suddenly be as reliable?
I had hoped to own this truck for 10 years, but I'm already racking up more miles than I figured. I put over 23,000 miles on it the first year. I am planning a roundtrip from Anchorage to Southern CA next Spring, so I may be close to 40,000 miles after two years.
If I put a lot of miles on this truck (over 150,000), there may come a point where it will not be reliable enough to take on long cross country trips (5,000+ miles). It will probably still be useful for 300-600 mile roundtrip weekend camping trips in-state, so I may end up keeping it and buying a new one. It will almost certainly still have more value to me than I could get as a trade-in or by resale of a truck pushing 200,000 miles.
- ??
As for the amount of money auto workers get paid, I say more power to them. They should get whatever they can (what the market will bear). $8 - $10 an hour would put a family of four with a single wage earner below the poverty line. I wouldn't want to buy a vehicle that I am trusting with my and my family's lives with that was built by a minimum wage or even twice minimum workers. Who can say thay they don't deserve $22 or whatever. There are a lot greater inequities out there than that. What about atheletes making millions who never did anything for anybody except dunk a basketball? What about the CEO who is also pulling down multiple millions? I don't have anything against these people either, but I'd say that the auto worker making $22 is a lot more in line with reality than a lot of other people.
Just MY .02
Everyone who wants a normal lifestyle needs a car,
and the autoworkers getting paid so much means that cars are a lot more expensive (in contrast, you don't HAVE to watch sports, or buy sports tickets to get along in life).
There are a lot of hard-working people that ARE only making $8-12/hour whose families ARE at the poverty level and they can't afford a good car precisely because the autoworkers are being paid too much. In my mind it is much MORE of an inequity for such a large sector of the U.S. work force to get so much more than every other equivalently skilled position. The athletes (and CEO's) are where they are because they're the best of the best at what they do. That's not at all true when it comes to autoworkers.
Suppose a super-race of a 1000 people were somehow put on earth and they were 25% faster, stronger, and smarter than our best athletes. I guarantee you 100 of our athletes would immediately be out of a job (or at least put on the bench or traded, etc.). In contrast, put 100 humans on earth who are 25% faster, more efficient, and smarter than our best autoworkers and nothing would change.
I'm just ranting, by the way, I know life is unfair and I know it will never change because the Unions have a lot of power (and this power ultimately goes back to the fact that everyone needs a car) yada, yada, yada. But I don't have to like it, and I don't have to support it by
agreeing with the "Buy American" propaganda that the UAW puts out. "Buy Best Value" is my motto.
-powerisfun
Don't blame CAT--they gave a reasonable option/choice.
And as others have said, if you make LONG trips or travel into rough and isolated areas, I have more peace of mind that a newer truck will at least be able to limp out than an old truck will get out at all. I have owned old and new, done lots of desert & ranch off-road driving, and I know what I am talking about, here. You look at all the troubles of the new trucks (believe me, I have been following the posts on the Sierra/Silverado & Rams), and most of them are rattles, vibrations, etc.; not totally debilitating breakdowns.
About the autoworkers: Believe me, I am far from a Union proponent, but to say "the autoworkers getting paid so much means that cars are a lot more expensive" is not very accurate. First of all, compared to CPI, auto-inflation is low. Especially when you consider how much more you get in ANY car now, especially in pickups (ext. cabs, better tires, disc brakes, abs, cruise control, AC, air bags, better stereos, cup holders, fuel injection, . . .), most of it on stock models. Auto-inflation looks pretty small. And the argument looks even dumber when you look at how close the car prices are between the American manufacturers and those of non-union foreign manufacturers. It makes more sense to question quality from union workers than to question their wages. An as far as quality, I'm sure most workers take pride in their work, and do it well, but the system allows for a few bums to screw things up for the rest.
The cpi itself has been low for the past eight or so years. Inflation has been low as a whole.
Foreign made cars outside NAFTA countries are still subject to heavy fees and tariffs. That was the only way to save Harley back in 81.
They ought to take pride. A relatively easy job with great benefits. Holidays paid or OT given with many weeks of vacation/sick time/and personal days. Most workers in the service/construction industry make considerably less money for a harder job. Less benefits and alot(retail) work mostly undesirable days.(Holidays,week-ends,night-shifts,etc...)
I'm not screaming for a wage-decrease for the auto-worker. I would rather see less power for Unions in protecting the dead(considerable) weight. I understand that auto-jobs tend to be routine and uninspiring but their salary makes up for it. The slobs ought to be given the boot.
So many stories here in Newark,DE at the Chrysler plant which would make most workers sick.....
But they do....
Oh well...they built my truck right..I guess>..
- Tim
As I said before, I am not a proponent of Unions. That is a massive understatement. I really can't stand them. They have had their place in history, and still are important to a certain extent, but they have no idea how good they have it now. I work in a very small business (just my boss and two of us). We work on a production basis of what we put out the door. If our client doesn't pay, I don't get paid. No benefits, although my boss is good about reimbursing expenses (taken out of my pay), so we both get a tax benefit. If I don't pull my weight or the market slumps, I'll be shown the door. I have to pay for medical/dental/etc. I have no matching 401K. I think the unions take for granted the benefits, guaranteed pay, tenure, etc.. Not only that, they put their own jobs and US economy in jeopardy when they strike a company that is already having a hard time competing. So trust me, I am not backing the unions, I'm just saying to blame increased auto prices on unions is far from that simple.
Regarding all the extras that new cars have, keep in mind that a lot if it is integrated electronics and anyone who has bought a computer knows about price deflation in that sector. I would bet that all the electronics in a car today probably costs GM about the same as the AM/FM radio in cars of yesteryear (adjusting for inflation). If anything, it's just that they have to pay people to install it.
Rocles:
I didn't know that about CAT. I'll bet there were a lot of people who wished they could go back in time and change their minds after that one.
I'm sure there are some honorable autoworkers that work hard, have pride in their work, and know how good they have it, but there are always the pigs of society that ruin it for everyone. I think the autoindustry even manages to "pigify" otherwise honorable people. They see they're coworkers getting paid the same or more while slacking off, so they adopt an attitude "Why should I work so hard?".
This is a great place to rant. Thanks for listening.
-powerisfun
I can't argue that there are a lot of slackers out there, but they are not confined to the unions. In almost any large company there is plenty of room for people who don't want to contribute to slack off and let their coworkers make up for it. I used to work for Uncle Sam and there were always two types of workers. The ones who felt responsible for accomplishing something useful, and the ones who wanted to occupy a desk for 40 years and retire without ever ever putting out any effort. There were a lot of both types. It's just that in the government there is no bottom line to measure progress from, and so it's hard sometimes to evaluate who is contibuting what. But there is a strong disincentive to getting anything useful done when you don't really have to. I didn't want to fall into that pit and that's why I'm now self-employed. Like gwmoore, if the work doesn't get done I don't get paid. I also have to pay my own "benefits". I'll tell you it's a big change from gov't. employment - a lot less security, but a lot more satisfaction.
I'm also not a big union supporter but, historically, if it were not for the unions we would all be a lot worse off now than we are (except for all of you CEO's out there). They basically created the middle class, which I think that most of us are probably stuck in. Just because there are some useless union workers doesn't mean that they are all bad. Just because there are some (a lot) of wasteful government programs doesn't mean the the government doesn't do a lot to protect all of our rights (I know I'm gonna take some big hits for that one). I think that the unions still have a place in protecting workers' rights and for collective bargaining. But a company (or the government) should be able to get rid of an employee that is not pulling his own weight for no good reason. Also, I don't think that anybody should have to join a union in order to get a job. But what do I know?
BTW, my full coverage health insurance, for a family of four is about $450 a month. A lot but not nearly $1000.
perhaps a plan may be $450 for four...depends on how and where it's thru.
My plan for 5 is $789 a month.(BCBS)
Basic "if I'm dying health"...$10 co-pay for drugs..No dental....No Optical..No Dr.Visits.
Full Blown coverage would be easily over $1K
Lose the union and make better cars for better prices and even make more of them in the same time frame!
Work 4-6..get the quota done....and get payed for 8. What a deal...Why don't they work the extra 2-4 and get more made and actually show some pride in their work?....
I understand Unions. Doesn't mean I have to like them. At one time the Union in the Auto Industry might have done good.....but it's a crock now.
My 2.697 cents.
- Tim
In the Bay Area, when they first started running BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit), the government agency hired train drivers, controlled by a union. Within the year, the union was striking. Now didn't they know what they were going to be making before they took the job? Seems like every year, teachers union around here is considering striking. It has never been a mystery that teachers do not make a big sallery (although they do have great benefits & incredible time off) Two other examples of how modern unions are all screwed up.
Oh, I'm sorry, you guys sucked me onto my soap box. Focus . . . picups . . . focus . . hunting . . . mmmm, Happy Place.
Biggest crock of all: Unions use union due money to support certain politicians and parties. There is nothing a union member can do about it. For example: Union guy that might actually favor G.W.Bush but watches his blood(dues) money go to the pig Gore.
Whoops!! Did I give away myself?? LOL!!
mikey43,
I don't live in Bay Area anymore. Grew up in Santa Cruz, but couldn't stand what the hippies and banana slugs did to my wonderful town. Now, I get to live much closer to my beloved bird hunting and fishin'. The land of pickups, the Great Northwest. Don't miss the Bay Area a bit. Besides, I can't afford to live there.
gwmoore -
Another Bay Area exile. Sounds like you've got it pretty good. Santa Cruz started getting pretty strange in the 70's. I grew up in Palo Alto. Will never come close to being able to afford that town again. I do miss the coastal range. Used to go camping up along Skyline Blvd.
Now in Fallbrook (NE San Diego Co.), the "avocado capital of the world". It's just about the only town around here that has parking spaces big enough for my SuperDuty.
I used to mountain bike through the avocado orchards in Southern California. I also love North County (San Diego).
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