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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan

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Comments

  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    " It's obvious that all cars are going to have them in a few years time anyways, why not do it right from the start?"

    From personal experience...it's hard to introduce a vehicle, and the logistics ordering behind the parts, and be able to pull a successful launch. Therefore certain options, items, are left for late availability once production ramps up.

    This method has allowed the successful Launch of the 500, Mustang (for example) which has allowed Ford to place tops, or 2nd in initial quality when a vehicle has been introduced. Specially for those 2 vehicles where they were totally brand new designs, built at newly renovated factories.

    So as anything else, there's a pro and con. Which is why the SAB will become standard later in the year. And why a few other items will be introduced as well.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    ANT14, you do have a good point - Ford's recent launches have been very successful. Ford just needs to remember that first impressions can be lasting impressions, and that teh competition is also successfully launching new vehicles with more features and options.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If the Milan doesn't get an "Good" on the retest on front and side impacts then it will be off my list or at best far down it, hanging by a thin thread. However, as some people have pointed out, the Fusion was rated "Acceptable" in the frontal crash only because of an increased risk of a leg injury. If the "Acceptable" frontal score was due to increased risk of head or internal injuries, that would be a more serious matter IMO. For example, the "Acceptable" side score for the Sonata was due to a likely fracture of the pelvis and possible rib fractures and/or internal organ injuries.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    When the IIHS tests a Fusion with side air bags (we all need to be watching the net for this).. we need to see how much media attention it gets if the Fusion gets better results. Or even results that match its competitors. I am very eager to see this test. If the results are good, we all need to spread the word all over the net. I feel pretty confident the media won't.
    I am longtime Ford owner over the last 25 years. I would like to stay one. However, if the Fusion has poor safety record, hate to say it but.. Bye Bye Ford.. :(
  • massdriver1massdriver1 Member Posts: 20
    I'm not sure what constitutes a successful launch, but IMO, the Fusion (or the 500 for that matter) did not have them.
    The Mustang and F150, of course.
    But the 500 seems to get just so-so reviews ,and are universaly considered bland looking and underpowered. And I don't know what the sales numbers are, but I sure see precious few of them on the streets.
    The Fusion seems to get better reviews for it's slick looks and all around competence, this safety rating sure isn't doing Ford any favors.
    Remember, the Focus launched very well I believe. Then all the recalls started. Although they seemed to have worked out all the bugs (after a few years), most people still seem to equate the focus with those troublesome first years.
    And to whoever said that Ford isn't alone, SABs are optional on the 2006 Camry... That's exactly why Ford should've stepped up. They NEED any advantage they can get over Toyota and Honda. For them to leave them off, thinking it's "good enough" isn't enough these days. Hyundai knows this, and they're growing as a result.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Good enough is not good enough for Fusion. When you compete with the big boys (CamCords) you need to have something special, and I didn't think the Fusion had it.

    The Sonata does a better job with smashing CamCord in the teeth and making them buck up. Fusion is glancing blow.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "I'm not sure what constitutes a successful launch, but IMO, the Fusion (or the 500 for that matter) did not have them.
    The Mustang and F150, of course.
    But the 500 seems to get just so-so reviews ,and are universaly considered bland looking and underpowered. And I don't know what the sales numbers are, but I sure see precious few of them on the streets."

    Successful launch meaning, initial quality, which the 500 rated on the top three in it's segment under JDPowers' study. Successful as in, it's selling as expected, with less number going to fleet, therefore helping with overall depreciation which compares to the likes of the Accord/Camry.

    Take rate of the higher trim models is much higher than expected, therefore the transaction prices are higher than expected...luckily the flexible factory was able to meet/switch to compensate.

    Rebates have been kept to a minimum, enough to get people interested, but not majorly enough to hurt depreciation.

    No manufacturing slip-ups during the ramping up. (like the '02 Explorer and the back windshield breaking, or sliced tires during the build at the factory), etc.

    The only people complaining over the 500, are those expecting Corvette performance, Aston Martin styling, the flexibility of a minivan, on the budget of a Kia. In retrospect, if the vehicle is taken for what it is, whos it's targeted to, and what it offers, the reviews will admit that.

    Ask a 500 driver how they like their vehicle in the forum, and you'll see it's quite a happy place overall.
  • marmil1marmil1 Member Posts: 3
    Get over the crash test data already! There are more important things to worry about. I grew up driving VW Bugs with fiberglass fronts over the gas tank and survived to tell the tale. Today's cars are so much safer than in the past and the difference between acceptable and exceptional is definitely diminishing returns; leave it to the ultra neurotics. If some drunk driving his Suburban crosses the median and runs head on into you it probably doesn't matter what kind of car you're driving. Just ask Lady Di who was riding in one of the safest cars on the planet. Remember to wear the seatbelt.
    marmil
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    I beg to differ. YOU can get over the crash test results if you want...as for me, I will buy the safest car I can...and Fusion/Milan/Zephyr are no longer being considered BY ME due to the crash test results....

    When and if you start buying my cars, then and only then can you tell me to get over the crash test results. Even then, I might not be interested in a car you bought for me FREE, if I believe it to be unsafe. It's MY life, not yours. I get to decide what I buy, drive, etc., or not. That's the way it is.

    The cemeteries are full of people who did not survive crashes. I don't intend to join them when I might have had a different choice.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    I am sure Ford media had a big hand in supplying information for the article below, about the Five Hundred...someone realizes safety sells...or does it only sell to older buyers?

    Ford Five Hundred Hits Bull's-eye For Boomers:

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/03/12/000369.html
  • jimargejimarge Member Posts: 9
    Just because some of Fusion/Milan competitors have side air bags as standard equipment, does not mean you can't get them. Pay for them like I did. It sounds to me like just because they are standard in other vehicles that you think you are getting them for free. Think again! Some people would rather not even have them or have to pay for them, that is their option. No pun intended. :)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    like these, the free reign of information exchange on the internet, first impressions are very important.
    Safety is a factor in my buying decision. The 500/Montego scored very well in safety. These vehicles are selling, I see them often on the road.
    This is a huge PR fumble by Ford corporate. They should have crash tested a Fusion with all safety features installed. For now, I too am taking a wait and see approach to my next car purchase. We all need to stay up on the IIHS tests and see when the Fusion will be tested again..
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    Good results in a test at 40MPH means just that. But such results at 40MPH are nothing but an educated guess about how crash-worthy a car is at 45MPH or any other speed.

    IMHO, real-world facts are more important at how safe a car is. This report is from the same IIHS on insurance claims: http://www.iihs.org/brochures/ictl/pdf/ictl_0905.pdf. The column on injury is perhaps the most important.

    Of course, owner profiles affect the facts, such as Buick drivers versus Mustang owners. But if one looks at only a certain category, it becomes pretty clear which cars fare better on public roads.

    It's also interesting to see some myths debunked, such as Volvo models faring worse than many other brands.

    Then again, it'll be a long while until the Fusion shows up...
  • pmerk28pmerk28 Member Posts: 121
    The "Big Four" car magazines ( Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Road and Track, Automobile) are dominated by "enthusiasts". They are great magazines to subscribe to and very very entertaining. They are very nit picky with cars because that is your job when all you do for a living is test drive and review cars. They are far more critical of most cars than many of us ever will be. They also clearly prefer cars that handle well over less sporty cars.

    Consumer reports treats cars like appliances, just like they review blenders and dishwashers. In the real world a huge number of people treat and think of cars the same way.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    "...and Fusion/Milan/Zephyr are no longer being considered BY ME due to the crash test results..."

    Don't sell these cars short because of one crash test. Side air bags are available, they just didn't test one with them. Even with adding side air bags, the Fusion is one of the best values on the road for a car in its segment. And with side air bags, it will rate as one of the safest in this segment.

    Beginning in September, side air bags are standard.
  • volk1volk1 Member Posts: 5
    Ford has created an overwhelming value statement with the Fusion. The styling, performance, and features offered raises the value equation for the entire class. I think that this has frustrated many of the traditional Ford haters, and until recently they have had nothing to latch on to that would allow for any meaningful nitpicking. A single test, where the tester arbitrarily decided to compare apples to oranges (cars with and without side air bags) has apparently opened the door to the amazing amount of negativity that has been posted recently. The car's been a home run with critics and consumers alike, and that's really what matters.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A single test, where the tester arbitrarily decided to compare apples to oranges (cars with and without side air bags)...

    That is inaccurate. It was Ford that decided to allow the IIHS to test only the non-side-bag-equipped Fusion, rather than providing a side-bag-equipped car as did other manufacturers such as GM. The test was totally consistent with IIHS' published procedures; it was not arbitrary.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    Where is the information that states Ford decided to not crash the safest version of one of their vehicles? I have heard this from several people, but haven't seen where it was Ford's decision.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Didn't you read the IIHS statement above? It says that IIHS would do the test with side airbags upon manufacturer's request at the manufacturer's cost? Do you REALLY think they were requested and IIHS denied the request? NO. EITHER Ford's management was TOO STUPID to realize need of such move or TOO STINGY to fork money for the alternate test. Either way, it was Ford's decision not to test Fusion with airbags. It is that simple, really.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    "Do you REALLY think they were requested and IIHS denied the request? NO. EITHER Ford's management was TOO STUPID to realize need of such move or TOO STINGY to fork money for the alternate test."

    These statements really cleared this up for me. Didn't know you had "inside information".

    Does anyone have "real" facts?
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Does anyone have "real" facts?

    Check this article out:

    http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr030506.html

    Basically, it says that Ford initially denied doing a retest with the side airbags, but now have changed their mind, and a model with the side airbags will be tested by IIHS.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    I don't need to have insider info, just simple "0-1" logic:
    KNOWN FACTS:
    1. As a policy IIHS does test in "base configuration" for free.
    2. IIHS provides opportunity for testing optional safety equipment for a fee.
    3. Ford did not submit an optional car for a test (if they had, it would have been tested).

    CONCLUSION:
    Ford did not see a need of submitting a vehicle with optional safety equipment (again, if they had, they would have). The may now, but at the time of tests, they did not.

    SPECULATION:
    Ford did not see a need for optionally equipped vehicle test either because they thought it was not important for their brand image (STUPID) or they thought it was not cost-effective for their image (STUPID AND STINGY).

    If you can't follow this logic, I can't help you anymore. Lets move on.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    The car's been a home run with critics and consumers alike

    Huh? A home run? Maybe in the little leagues. It still in the minor leagues compared to CamCords, or even the Sonata.

    IMO I think its a blip on the screen in this class, and being a former multiple Ford owner, I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised by Fusion when it first appeared. Nobody around here is buying them. I know I'm not.
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    The 500 gets just as good mileage, more confortable. Most of this is due to the new auto transmission. Both would be better with a good diesel.
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    Ford keeps shooting itself in the foot by not making a vehicle that gets the kind of mileage that half the cars in Europe get.

    With Ford's great dealerships, all they need is s good diesel. Not a 0 to 60 thing but one that has great torque and mileage. You know diesel.
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    The record for those magazines is spotty at best. On one year a car is elected Car of the Year, a few years later it's nothing but an unreliable clunker. On a year they drool on a car and on another they trash it.

    IMHO, these variations are due to opinions of changing editorial staffs. But I highlight that their articles are nothing but the author's opinions based little on facts. Which is not unexpected, considering that they don't have to put their money where their mouths are. We, consumers, do.

    But indeed, CR is the worst reference when evaluating a car from its overall worthiness.
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    Ford keeps shooting itself in the foot by not making a vehicle that gets the kind of mileage that half the cars in Europe get.

    Ford did, the Focus, designed in Germany. My 4-cylinder Focus has a mileage similar to my V6 sedans, each over 1000lbs heavier: 25MPG vs. 23MPG.

    And it's not alone. When I drove a 1.6 Toyota Avensis for about 1000mls in Europe, mostly highways, it got just 23MPG, manual transmission and all. My V6 sedans delivered up to 32MPG on the highway.

    BTW, diesel engines fare well in Europe because it's the only way to get any torque. For the alternative is a decently sized engine, as common in the US, but made prohibitive by stupid taxation, often considering the engine displacement or HP. Not to mention the pillaging taxes on gas...
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Member Posts: 431
    You are so right about CR. I was looking for a SUV back in early 2004. Got my new CR yearly auto ratings and they rated the Explorer/Mountaineer as a recommended buy. Also, Edmunds had them as the Editor's pick in the Mid-Sized Suv class. Pilot was an honorable mention that year. I really liked the Mountaineer over all others in the class, so with the high praise from these two sources I bought one. I have not regretted it. I still think the Mountaineer or Explorer are the best looking Suv's. The thing is in this years installment of CR's Auto ratings they list the Explorer/Mountaineer's 2002-05 as used cars to avoid. Huh?
    2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not so difficult to understand. CR lists cars to avoid when they have below-average reliability records. It has nothing to do with how the vehicles perform on the road.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It may also not have anything to do with their actual reliability in the real world. You can't do a survey using only CR subscribers and not expect it to be biased. J.D. Power does a much more scientific survey and, e.g., found Lincoln to be 3rd behind only Lexus and Porsche in number of defects per 100 vehicles during the first 3 years of ownership. Yet you won't find a Lincoln in CRs recommended list. What's wrong with that picture?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Fusion has scored well in test drives and reviews and even comparison tests with the mighty Accord, Camry and Sonata in multiple publications. They're selling them as fast as they can make them with only $500 rebates (the other $500 is from Ford Credit). The factory is close to max capacity. The Fusion/Milan are on pace to sell over 130K units in their first year on the market as a brand new vehicle WITHOUT AWD and a host of other options being added for 2007.

    And more importantly - they're making money on them. What more do you think they should be doing to declare it a "home run"?
  • pmerk28pmerk28 Member Posts: 121
    You will find the Lincoln Town Car on CR's 2006 recommended list. Not the TOP 10 or quick picks but recommended based on crash test scores and achieving a reliability rating of no worse than "average". The 2004 Town Car is also a recommend used car.

    I am a CR subscriber why would I be biased in their surveys? J.D Power has come under criticism recently and are said to be not quite the gold standard they once were. That aside the Lincoln Town car is based on on what? A 20 year old platform (at least). It has proven mechanics as it should after so long in production. It also has an old very loyal customer base who are very satisfied with owning and repeat buying the Town Car.

    The Town Car skews Lincoln as a whole in my eyes. The idea that they are a competitive thriving company is silly. They need to produce some new exciting advanced cars. I have nothing against the Town Car ( unlike most of the automotive press). There is clearly a market that is very satisfied with it and Lincoln should continue to please loyal customers. However, they also need to find loyal customers under the age of 69.

    Old people drive Mercedes,BMW, and Lexus too, lot's of em. But so do 30 year olds.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I guess then that CR's rating of the Fusion being 4th out of 18 sedans in the $25-30,000 price range is biased too. Knock a couple of options off, and it would have wound up 2nd in the $20-25,000 category--right between the Accord and the Sonata, with the Camry bringing up fourth. Which is exactly how MT rated them. Interesting.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    You are right about Lincoln looking for loyal customers under the age of 69. The Navigator, Aviator, LS, Zephyr and the new MKX and MKS have and will attract a younger buyer, especially the Zephyr (MKZ), MKX and MKS. I read that the Zephyr average age buyer is upper 40's to low 50's. Quite a drop from the 65 - 69 year old customer Lincoln had.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Ford keeps shooting itself in the foot by not making a vehicle that gets the kind of mileage that half the cars in Europe get.

    That's because gas is a little pricier in Europe, in some cases as much as 3 times more than US prices. That's why mileage is more important in Europe, and also the reason why the "micro" cars are more popular there as well.

    Automotive tastes couldn't be more different than they are between Europe and the US. Europe prefers the smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles, while the US is still (unfortunately) hooked on SUVs and larger, more powerful cars.

    Having said that, gas mileage is indeed becoming more important here in the US, and automakers are beginning to reflect this with new products that are more powerful, and more fuel-efficient, than their predecessors.

    With Ford's great dealerships, all they need is s good diesel. Not a 0 to 60 thing but one that has great torque and mileage. You know diesel.

    They do. It's installed in the Heavy Duty truck lines, which gives pickups great torque to pull trailers with ease, with minimal penalty in fuel economy. While I think that diesels would be a good idea across the line, emission standards are getting tougher for diesels in the US. Plus, convincing the public that diesels aren't the loud, black-smoke-spewing disasters they were in the past is no easy feat. They might catch on, but it'll take a while.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    The record for those magazines is spotty at best. On one year a car is elected Car of the Year, a few years later it's nothing but an unreliable clunker. On a year they drool on a car and on another they trash it.

    That's because newer and better cars are being released every year. More powerful, with better features and handling, and better quality is a bar that's continually being raised. The car mags are giving testing results and opinions about what's out there RIGHT NOW. How are they supposed to know the quality and reliability of these cars down the road? They don't, and that's not their goal.

    Buying ANY car is a risk, and what's reliable to one person is a lemon to the next.

    But I highlight that their articles are nothing but the author's opinions based little on facts. Which is not unexpected, considering that they don't have to put their money where their mouths are. We, consumers, do.

    There are plenty of facts in their articles. Measurements, specs, and test results are pretty solid numbers that can be repeated. You don't have to agree with their opinions, that's fine, but that's why you get as much information from ALL resources available, and make your decision from there.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    Thanks, for the article. Those are some of the "facts" I was looking for.

    Hey, dino001. Doesn't look like Ford was "too stupid" or "too stingy". Apparently, they couldn't submit a Fusion with optional side air bags first, according to the article. They will be testing one next go-round.

    Next time, back up your opinions with something substantial. Also, using phrases like "too stupid" and "too stingy" when referring to corporate management, doesn't add much validity to your comments.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Backy, this post of yours will be ignored because it points out that CR isn't biased against the Fusion in its ratings, but this forum is full of folks who want to hide Ford's shortcomings (crash tests, reliability) by crying MEDIA BIAS.

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Apparently, they couldn't submit a Fusion with optional side air bags first, according to the article. They will be testing one next go-round.

    Somehow GM figured out how to get a car with optional side airbags included in the IIHS tests. Stupid? That is a little harsh. Lack of foresight? Maybe.

    This car [G6] is rated acceptable for side impact protection, but only when equipped with optional side curtain airbags designed to protect occupants' heads. All injury measures recorded on the driver dummy were low, but forces recorded on the rear passenger dummy indicated the possibility of rib fractures or internal organ injuries. Without side airbags, the G6 is rated poor in the side test.

    [Emphasis added to quote above]

    http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr030506.html
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    I don't think anyone's hiding any shortcomings. There is no reliability record for the Fusion yet. I know it's new, but there are no reliability issues with it. Based on current facts, the Fusion is as reliable as anything in it's segment.

    Other vehicles, not just the Fusion, have scored poorly on side impact tests without side air bags. backy mentioned that GM was able to get their vehicles tested with optional side air bags where Ford didn't. I don't think it's because Ford wanted to score poorly. They, like all manufacturers crash test their vehicles hundreds of times before they are released to the public.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    backy,

    Do you know if this was the G6's first test, or a retest? If it was a retest, then it follows the IIHS policy of first test doesn't include optional equipment. It almost sounds like a retest if they make the statement, "Without side air bags, the G6 is rated poor in the side test." Or, maybe they tested two vehicles, one with and one without.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    "There is no reliability record for the Fusion yet. I know it's new, but there are no reliability issues with it. Based on current facts, the Fusion is as reliable as anything in it's segment."

    Wow; It's too new to have a record therefore, therefore it has no problems, therefore it's great.

    How objective.

    I'm not drinking the same kool-aid as some here, but it's obvious from the way the IIHS selects it's vehicles, they are intending to embarrass those companies who make safety optional.

    That is their intention.

    They are not trying to be objective- They are working for their clients- insurance companies.

    They want the airbag packages to be standard.

    They sure made Ford look bad didn't they?--Just as intended.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    The comment was made because an earlier poster said the Fusion had the "shortcoming" of being unreliable. My statement addressed the fact that his comment was unsubstantiated. The facts are, there are no negative reliability issues with the Fusion.

    I may have to agree with you on your assessment of the IIHS. Not that long ago, the IIHS crash tested full-size pick up trucks. The Toyota Tundra came out on top and the F-150, the best-selling truck, came out on the bottom. When the NHTSA crash tested the same trucks, the F-150 came out on top and the Tundra was at the bottom. Go figure.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    "The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety is an independent, nonprofit, scientific and educational organization dedicated to reducing the losses — deaths, injuries, and property damage — from crashes on the nation's highways.
    The Highway Loss Data Institute's mission is to compute and publish insurance loss results by make and model. Both organizations are wholly supported by auto insurers."


    Obviously, no one is against safety, but the IIHS is not a neutral, unbiased organization.
    They are paid ,and exist, to produce the data their clients want.

    Their goal is to make all the safety stuff available as standard, not optional, equipment.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Which probably coincides with agenda of some 80%-90% of customers, at least in equipment dept. Other measures not necessarily, but passive/active safety equipment - most of us wants it for less. The way to make it cheaper is to make it standard, so it is mass produced.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It's already mass produced so making it standard won't make it that much cheaper.

    I do agree that side airbags should be standard equipment. I just don't agree with the IIHS testing policy that tries to force the issue by doling out bad publicity to the mfrs who don't make them standard.

    It's a moot point now since the 2007 Fusion, Accord, Camry and Sonata will all have them standard.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    I agree - Ford screwed up so they could quote a low base price at introduction-- and they got punk'd

    And the job the IIHS is paid to do is to point that out.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    It's already mass produced so making it standard won't make it that much cheaper.


    Well, side impact airbags had been sold in small percentage of mainstream midsize sedans until just a year/two ago. So there is mass produced and ther is MASS produced.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Or, maybe they tested two vehicles, one with and one without.

    Yes, that is correct. Had Ford chosen to provide a car equipped with side bags to the IIHS, they would have reported the results without side bags and with side bags, at the same time, like they did for the G6.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    "Had Ford chosen to provide a car equipped with side bags to the IIHS, they would have reported the results without side bags and with side bags, at the same time"

    If that's the case if definitely falls into the aforementioned stupid/stingy category.

    But, I believe the plan of the IIHS is to first test the "unsafe" base models to further their cause, and will do a second test to give the appearance of objectivity
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