Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan

alpha01

Put all the butts in seats that you want, if you're incenting to the point the vehicles arent not at breakeven, its not going to matter. You act as if Hyundai is infallible and everything is cut and dry. They arent, and it's not.

PS- the Hertz at Milwaukee airport has 2 Fusions in fleet right now.

~alpha

backy

Where did you hear that Hyundai is not breaking even on the Sonata?

And it will matter. The big problem Hyundai has is general market perception, not the car itself. So they need to go all out to get people to get their first Hyundai. Then create a Hyundai owner for life. Driving is believing.

Ford is taking steps to get people to try the Fusion/Milan, too--e.g. heavily subsidized lease deals, factory cash back, special events where you can drive a Fusion, etc. I don't see you jumping all over Ford for these tactics--even though this discussion is the place to do it, and not the place to talk about Hyundais.

snakeweasel

Try saying the following:

Butts in seats
Butts in seats
Butts in seats

Ok:

Butts in seats
Butts in seats
Butts in seats

Gee I feel much better already.

alpha01

Ford has not yet resorted to the level of PUSH marketing that Hyundai has with the Sonata. In fact, the last articles I read stated that the Fusion is selling very well. Special events where you drive a Fusion? This is an incentive? Uh, no. And factory cash back/lease deals are not at the level of the Hyundai yet (nor is the rental %).

Also, I did not say Hyundai is not breaking even on the Sonata. I said IF. IF Hyundai is selling these cars for $15-$16 grand (as you have stated several times they are- and indeed check Fitzmall.com, they are), how is money being made? Seems like a plausible IF.

The Sonata is a good car. But it's not the runaway success that you seem to believe it is.

Sorry if this is OT, but I think it definitely relates to the Fusion, which is also a good car. I was pissed at Hertz when they gave me an MZ6 this week, instead of the Fusion I requested, but I'm not President's club yet, and at least I'm driving the same chassis... and the 6 is still more attractive to my eyes anyway. Worst cloth interior ever though, 30K of wear looks like 100K.

~alpha

backy

When did I say the Sonata is a "runaway success"? If it were a runaway success, why would Hyundai have to prop up its sales with all the incentives?

IMO $2500 factory-to-customer incentives, which is available now on the Fusion ($500 general rebate, $1000 down payment match, $1000 financing rebate) is at a pretty high level, matching that of the Sonata on the I4 models. Also there are the big leasing incentives, e.g. $239/month with 0 cash upfront on the Milan. Not even Hyundai offers lease deals that good.

It costs someone at Ford some big money to put on the Fusion "dating" programs like they are offering around the country. I believe they are an "incentive" for young singles to go out and try a Fusion. A different kind of incentive than a cash rebate, but an incentive (and an imaginative one) nonetheless.

jimmy81

Butts in seats
Butts in seats
Butts in seats

Gee I feel much better already.

What a geek.

snakeweasel

Hey I am not Greek I am.... oh wait, you said geek.

Well to that I say "It takes one to know one" :P

scape2

I mean the average income for a familty in the U.S. is about $45,000 a year. Key word here is AVERAGE by the way. I am educated and I am above average in income. However, I am also educated enough to research vehicles. This class is the most competetive and I feel Toyota really fell on its face as far as price/value goes. With all the great cars on the market for thousands less, it will hurt Toyota. If the Camry averages even $2K more than a Sonata, Fusion/Milan, Altima, G6, whichever, people will start thinking twice. Yes, Toyota has its name, and has built its reputation. But, this only lasts for so long until consumers start becoming smarter and realize they don't have to spend the extra $$ for a great, reliable vehicle.. what then for Toyota and Honda?

snakeweasel

I mean the average income for a familty in the U.S. is about $45,000 a year

To be percise its the medium family income and its $44,473

akirby

To be percise its the medium family income and its $44,473

And to be even more precise, it's median, not medium.

alpha01

But since what we are talking about here is averages, and average is not the same as median, it doesnt make a difference. Mean would would be the average, not median.

Backy- http://www.fordvehicles.com/incentives/offers/

It seems the Fusion has a $500 rebate plus $1000 Perfect Match. = $1500. If that website above says anything about $500 + $1000 PLUS $1000, its lost on me.

I see $500 + $1000 or $1000 + Financing.

Regarding Camry pricing, I disagree, I don't think the vehicle is going to lose sales for its price. It gets pricier only with major optioning; options that Ford and Hyundai have chosen not to offer on their competing vehicles. As I've stated before, subtract out all the unavailable stuff, and the Camry is at a $2000-$3000 premium over the Fusion and Sonata- which is historically where it has been.

~alpha

snakeweasel

But since what we are talking about here is averages, and average is not the same as median, it doesnt make a difference. Mean would would be the average, not median.

Actually mean median and mode are considered "averages". So saying average can mean different things.

alpha01

We can agree to disagree, but according to any stat class I took and, backed up by dictionary.com:

1)Mean

The simple mathematical average of two or more numbers.

2)median

adj 1: relating to or constituting the middle value of an ordered set of values (or the average of the middle two in an even-numbered set)

3)mode (md) n.

The value or item occurring most frequently in a series of observations or statistical data.
The number or range of numbers in a mathematical set that occurs the most frequently.

Note the only one that mentions "average" in the definition is MEAN.

~alpha

dino001

Median is often used as more informative than mean for income in a population, because mean can be easily skewed by a small number of very large values, e.g.:
10K, 20K, 30K, 40K - mean 25K, median - 25K, but
10K, 20K, 30K, 1M - mean 530K, median: 25K.

Using mean for any predictions in second case would be completely useless. As a relationship between compensation of a low level laborer and CEO is now in 1 to 400, median is much more helpful for a mass-marketing company to determine their product pricing relevance to the population.

backy

Yes, I saw the site but it's unclear to me just looking at the site whether it's possible to get the $500 rebate, the $1000 down payment match, and the $1000 financing rebate together if someone leases a Fusion.

As for Camry pricing, differences in list prices may be $2400-$3000+, but we know people don't buy cars at list price (well, maybe a few will buy the new Camry at list price, but that's their problem). The actual difference in price will be more like $5000-6000+ until Toyota starts adding rebates to the Camry--which will take awhile if the last generation model is any indication. Of course, the last generation didn't have as much competition when it first came out.

baggs32

Yes, I saw the site but it's unclear to me just looking at the site whether it's possible to get the $500 rebate, the $1000 down payment match, and the $1000 financing rebate together if someone leases a Fusion.

Not exactly, see the details from Ford's site below.

You only get the $500 and the $1000 when buying and the latter is if and only if you put $1000 down. For example, if you only put $500 down then your total rebate is only $1000 or if you put $0 down then your total rebate is $500.

Fusion Lease:
Lease a 2006 Fusion SE I4.

Lease amount per month is just $219 for 36 months.* Cash due at signing after cash back is $1,813. No security deposit is required. Taxes, title and license fees are extra.

Automatic transmission
Message center with trip computer
AM/FM stereo/single CD/MP3 player with 6 speakers
6-way power driver seat adjustment and manual lumbar
Audio controls on steering wheel

If you prefer to buy rather than lease, get up to $1,500 cash back on a retail purchase!**

*2006 Fusion SE I4 with automatic transmission. $19,375 MSRP including delivery and destination charges.

Base MSRP $ 19,375
Customer Cash $ 500
Perfect Match $ 1,000
Price after Cash Back $ 17,875

Not all buyers will qualify for Ford Credit Red Carpet Lease. Payments may vary; dealer determines price. Residency restrictions apply. Due at signing is after $1,000 Red Carpet Lease Cash and up to $1,000 Matching Down Payment Cash Back. Matching Down Payment Cash Back up to $1,000 will vary based on actual down payment. Take delivery of new lease vehicle from dealer stock by 4/3/06. See dealer for qualifications and complete details.

**Cash back includes Matching Down Payment Cash up to $1,000. Ford Credit financing is required. Matching Down Payment Cash Back up to $1,000 will vary based on actual down payment. Not all buyers will qualify for Ford Credit financing. Take new retail delivery from dealer stock by 5/1/06. See dealer for qualifications and complete details.

akirby

Yes, I saw the site but it's unclear to me just looking at the site whether it's possible to get the $500 rebate, the $1000 down payment match, and the $1000 financing rebate together if someone leases a Fusion.

The Ford web site is very clear: for retail purchases you can get up to $1K perfect match plus $500 cash rebate OR up to $1K perfect match plus low financing. Perfect match is only available when financing through Ford Credit.

For leasing you get up to $1K perfect match plus another $1K cash rebate.

Fusion Incentives

backy

It is clear now, thanks. So max rebate is $2000.

snakeweasel

Well not to argue the point but every stat class I took and every dictionary I have see has the definition of average as: "a single value (as a mean, mode, or median) that summarizes or represents the general significance of a set of unequal values"

And they have mean as: "a value that is computed by dividing the sum of a set of terms by the number of terms"

akirby

That's true but it also says that Average is a synonym for the arithmetic mean. Nobody actually says "the arithmetic mean test score was 85" - they say "the average test score was 85".

mschmal

Edmunds pitted the $30k Camary against the $25k Fusion.

This to me was a contrived test. IF they wanted to do a real world test, the would have pited the volume leading trims against each other.

Ask yourself this, if someone gave you $30k to buy a car would the first thought to go through your mind be "I'll buy a Camary with every available option"?

I don't think so.

I am the first to agree that a $25k Fusion SEL V6 is not all the most compelling vehicle. I would be wondering if I could get an Acura TSX.

But a Fusion SE 4 cylinder automatic with the Sport Package, Safety Package and and ABS stickers for $20,990. Add $1,500 in possible rebates and in my book you have a very compelling arguement. Plus you can add the V6 and traction control for an MSRP of $22,890!.

Mark

dino001

10K, 20K, 30K, 1M - mean 530K, median: 25K.

Of course the mean is 1,060K/4 = 215K, not 530K
Go back to school...

The point remains the same, though - for this data set mean would not be a good predictor of what you could call "average buying power" of the popupation, used by mass-marketed product manufacturer. Median, on the other hand, would.

backy

Why the uproar? Auto reviewers do this all the time. MT and C/D did exactly this same thing when they tested the Accord vs. Fusion vs. Sonata vs. Camry a few months ago. No one here was crying foul then. Maybe because the Fusion came in 2nd in those reviews? In those tests, the Accord was about $5000 more than the other cars. The Accord came in first. What a shock! MT said something like, "Go dig into your sofa for the loose change to make up the $5000 difference, it's worth it." Well, not MY sofa. I might find $1.30 in there.

I'm not sure why the auto mags do this unless they want to be sure a certain car comes out first. At least in Edmunds' case, they had two high-priced cars, and they came out within a fraction of a point of each other, ahead of the less-expensive cars. I much prefer the tests where it's "how much car for X dollars", because that is more how I buy cars. I'm not going to pay $5000+ more for a car just for a few more gizmos or for the nameplate on the back.

akirby

Actually, in MOST cases it's simply a matter of what's available for testing. They don't go buy these cars - they're made available by the mfrs or they use cars that are already in their test fleet. It's very hard to get an exact apples to apples comparison that way. But there's no reason they can't do a price comparison with the same features regardless of whether the features are standard or optional. To say one vehicle is better than the other because it has more standard features when it also has a higher price is just wrong.

If it has more features for the same price then that's notable. If it has more optional features available then that's also notable but shouldn't figure into the price/value comparison.

backy

I can see the discussion now.

Edmunds.com: "We'd like to test a 2007 Camry LE V6 please. We'd like alloys and VSC because all the other cars we are testing (except Fusion, no VSC available) have those features standard."

Toyota: "Sorry, all you can have is a loaded XLE with nav."

Edmunds.com: "Why is that? Don't you make any LE V6s with alloys and VSC?"

Toyota: "Sure, we sell lots of them. But we'd rather give you a car that we sell about 17 of during the year, because we know you will consider all the feature content in your testing and it will help the Camry come out on top."

Edmunds.com. "Oh."

akirby

It doesn't work that way. The mfrs have press fleets with cars that they loan out for testing. So the media makes a request for a specific car and they get whatever's available at that particular time. They don't go pull a new car based on each test.

I'm sure some mfrs may stock their press fleets differently with that in mind (toyota may have more loaded Camrys e.g.) but it's not done test by test.

backy

Yes. I know it's not done that way. Thank you.

scape2

fact of the matter is this market segment is aimed at folks with moderate to above moderate incomes. Fact is $30K is reaching into luxo territory. I agree Edmunds should have had a cap of about 23-25K for these sedans. Lets see how much $$?? can buy you type of article. I believe this would show consumers just how spendy Toyota and Honda have gotten over the years. They preach resale value, yet fail to mention the initial cost, plus no incentives, no low APR, can add or subtract from a cars "value" or resale value. This is an intense market segment with all kinds of choices for consumers. Someone said they don't need to spend the extra $$ for the gadgets or gizmo's and to have a nameplate on the car.. I totally agree. I look for true value, something I believe Toyota/Honda have let slip away while thier heads were in the clouds and ego's were getting stroked by the media..

scape2

Anyone heard anything more? when a Fusion with side airbags will be tested??

jcat707

"Fact is $30K is reaching into luxo territory."

I agree. I would never spend 30K on a Camry or Accord. I'm sure they are nice but in my opinion you might as well stretch the money out a few more thousand and get an ES330, TL, G35, C-Class, etc. The Fusion is priced nicely. Even when you add options to an SE 4cyl, it doesn't increase the price dramatically like some of its competitors.

snakeweasel

True but when the census bureau gives out the average income it does so using the median not the mean.

akirby

True but when the census bureau gives out the average income it does so using the median not the mean.

Wrong again.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/income04/statemhi.html

The $44,473 figure is the Average Median Household Income for 2002-2004. The note on the bottom of the page says

The 3-year-average median is the sum of 3 inflation-adjusted single-year medians divided by 3

So they only measure the Median household income for each year, then they take the arithemetic mean of those 3 years which they call the Average Median Income.

snakeweasel

Wait, you tell me I am wrong then tell me I am right? How does that work?

FWIW The Census people publish single year, two year moving, and three year moving figures. All based on the Median.

akirby

You're correct that the annual income is the Median income. But the 3 year Average Median income is not the Median income for the 3 year period. It's the Average (arithmetic mean) of the median income for each of the 3 years.

The point is that Average and Median (as commonly used) are 2 different things and the Census Bureau uses both.

Stat class is over. We now return you to the Fusion/Milan discussion.

mfletou1

Interestingly, the price of the loaded Accord is creeping downward a bit. I never had considered a car like this, in part because I'm a GM guy but also because of price. But now I'm finding loaded Accord V6 EX's with leather, sunroof, heated seats, etc, for $24500. Over $1k less than a loaded Impala, for instance. An Accord V6 LX, which wouldn't have the leather, is going for around $22. That's Fusion territory.

mschmal

The Impala is another Cavalier. A car that has served well past its time and not aged gracefully... mostly because it was only mediocre to begin with.

Mark.

scootertrash

The Fusion got a fantastic review in this week's Autoweek magazine. I haven't driven one, but the acceleration figures are pretty impressive.

akirby

And the "owners say" column wasn't bad, either. Especially the 2nd one......

scootertrash

Wow, very cool!
We have a celebrity on our hands!

garandman

How's the Fusion selling? I'm starting to see quite a few of them on the road.

rparis

What did the article say?

mschmal

My dealership can not keep up with 6 cylinder demand. We have yet to have more than 12 Fusions on the lot at once. Milans are about a dozon but again, no V6s.

Mark.

scape2

Actually, you may be thinking of the last generation Impala. The new Gen is pretty good... Someone at my work just bought a Black LT and put some aftermarket tires/wheels on it, with factory spoiler. Looks pretty sharp. Caught my eye along with my whole shops. We are trying to find out who owns it... Imapala with the V8 is a great bargain.. But this is a Fusion/Milan room.. and the Impala is a class larger..

mschmal

You should drive it.

The beauty is only skin deep underneath is the age old chassis and engines of the previous generation ...Every review of the V8 concludes that the engine completely overwhelms the chassis. Can you say Torque Steer?

Not to mention all that weight in front of the front axle destroys what little handeling dynamics there was.

Mark.

navigator89

The Fusion sold 10703 units and the Milan was 3236, just 18 more than the Zephyr.

So combined sales were 17157, up 28% from February. That's good news.

rparis

Sounds good, but it would be interesting to know how the Honda Accord and Camry sold during the same period.

The incentives expire today on the Fusion and Milan-does anyone know if or what the new incentives will be?

navigator89

The Accord and Camry sold way better, almost tripled the Fusion's sales. The Camry sold 38981 units while the Accord sold 29623 units. Even the Sonata sold better, with 17487 units.

alpha01

And they're irrelevant unless against a benchmark. What are Hyundais projections vs. Fords projections for the Fusion? Does it matter that the Sonata outsold the Fusion? What was the percentage of sales to fleets for the Fusion- the Sonata is currently at a worse-than-industry-average 30%, according to a recent article. What about incentives? Are sales a good thing if they are at a high cost to profit?

My point- theres a lot more questions for which which a raw monthly sales figure will not provide answers.

~alpha

backy

Yes, and another question is, what are the per-dealer sales for the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr vs. cars like the Sonata, which have a much smaller dealer network?

alpha01

What do per dealer sales indicate? I argue a better measure would be Days To Turn.... which would speak to the dealers ability to move their volume in a timely manner, management of the supply vs. demand, popularity of the vehicle, etc.

~alpha