Chevy Uplander/Pontiac Montana SV6/Saturn Relay/Buick Terraza

alpha01

By the time the GM crossminis are available, the new Honda Odyssey will offer side impact protection for all rows, likely standard.

~alpha

jchan2

did another minivan comparison test. Pretty interesting stuff, especially the part where the Odyssey beat out the new Freestar, Quest and the cheaper Sedona.

alpha01

But thats basically been the way its going... CR posted very similar ratings, only switching the Sedona and Freestar.

~alpha

ateixeira

Yeah, Siennas tend to sell loaded. The funny thing is that the no-haggle dealer I'm familiar with charges a higher margin (more $ above invoice) for the high-end models than it does for the base models. That's where the demand is, apparently.

Let me check today...yep.

Base models are $600 over invoice, but get up to the AWD and Ltd models and they are a whopping $2300 over invoice! Much higher margins there for the dealers.

Interestingly the same dealer sells Chevys. Prices for a Venture range from $22,033 to $26,982. For the Sienna they go from $22,724 to $36,207.

So the difference appears to be on the high-end, not the entry level models.

-juice

spartanmann

After the Freestar's showing in the test, it will be very amusing to see how the Uplander fares in next year's test. On the bright side, with only three redesigned models and the toprated Sienna included, the worst it can finish is fourth.

rctennis3811

While I think these vans will rate ahead of the Sedona and Freestar, I doubt that they will get near the Sienna or Odyssey. Just too many features missing...

jchan2

the Uplander will rate over the Freestar and Sedona, and come in just under the Quest, Odyssey and Sienna. Hey, at least it's 4th place!

samnoe

The new GM vans will be very competitive, especially with the US models.

Chrysler was, and is still, the best selling minivan, and for years they didn't have good safety ratings, reliability, side airbags and curtain air bags, they had underpowered engines (especially the 2.4L and 3.3L) and 4-speed trannies, and more. But most people don't care about these things too much. If it has a very smooth ride and responsive handling, a nice interior with a lot of features, is quiet, and offers storage space, then it's a good van. Of course it must have at least a fair safety rating.

Now GM will have all these and more. The current GM minivans always drove a little more sporty than others, due to the narrow design and other factors, like weight, and more. I read it in many articles (for one example click here
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/- - 37526
and see the steering/handling/braking rating). And they have a comfy ride as well.

Now they will improve everything, and include an ultra quiet cabin, with a beautiful interior (IMO it's the most beautiful design than any other minivan, included the Freestar and Sienna), although we can't guarantee the quality of materials, but the appearance is gorgeous for a minivan - nice, clean, and easy to understand.

200 horses is not on par with others, but the Freestar does not have more (although they have more lb-ft of torque), and Chrysler still have the 3.3L with just 180 hp, so this new 3.5 should be adequate for most people. It's also older, bug free and proven. And they also have a very smooth transmission.

Now the van will be much safer than the outgoing model, due to a redesigned front-end, and will now offer stability control (which is still not available on the Chrysler/Dodge minivans), and the biggest plus, it will have the advantage of AWD, which only Toyota offers right now on minivans. Many people will choose these safety features over side curtain airbags.

Add in the new storage and cup holders, good features like the overhead rail system, and the new audio (don't remember the name) where you can download your music files, and you got an excellent van for most people.

So, it doesn't include a hideaway third row seat or second row? Not everybody needs it this way, at least the seats (especially the rear) will be much more comfy than Ford & Chrysler, and you can still fold flat all seats if you want.

The only thing GM shoot themselves in the foot is, dropping the 8-passenger seating. Thousands of people bought GM van for this only reason. I can't see why they're dropping them, and send all those customers to Toyota Sienna.

alpha01

"Many people will choose these safety features over side curtain airbags."

The minivan segment is increasingly safety conscious. As time passes and the IIHS scares the bejesus (sp?) out of more consumers with the ultra-dramatic (though fundamentally valid) side impact test, more and more people are going to want side curtains for themselves and the little ones.

Not offering side curtains in a 2005 model is a glaring oversight, especially when GM offers the feature on its own low-end cars, such as the ION, and the Cobalt, which will ostensibly be next to Rebate and the Uplander in showrooms, respectively.

~alpha

spartanmann

Smaller, underpowered engines, carryover styling, no hideaway seating, missing top line safety features. Exactly who will be buying this van instead of the Sienna, new Odyssey, and the 05 DC van? Basically GM employees and relatives. They've even extended the program to allow employees to transfer their discount to anyone not affiliated with GM. Fortunately there are a lot of these people out there. Expect the sales to remain exactly the same as the current model. The same thing that happened to the Freestar despite big rebates.

jchan2

I'd rather get a Sienna or 05 Odyssey instead of the Uplander, mainly for the hide-away third row seats and the big Navigation System Screen.

rctennis3811

"But most people don't care about these things too much. If it has a very smooth ride and responsive handling, a nice interior with a lot of features, is quiet, and offers storage space, then it's a good van. Of course it must have at least a fair safety rating."

Times have changed - people want those things in a minivan these days.

"Now they will improve everything, and include an ultra quiet cabin"

The only midvan with a quieter interior than the competition will be the Terraza. QuietTuning is EXCLUSIVE to Buick only.

"It's also older, bug free and proven. And they also have a very smooth transmission."

While they are very similar and trace back to the same roots, the 3.8L is THE reliable GM pushrod engine. You can't yet prove that with the 3.5L as it's still new.

"Now the van will be much safer than the outgoing model, due to a redesigned front-end, and will now offer stability control (which is still not available on the Chrysler/Dodge minivans), and the biggest plus, it will have the advantage of AWD, which only Toyota offers right now on minivans. Many people will choose these safety features over side curtain airbags."

Smoking crack!?! I think people will choose side-curtain airbags over that...

"So, it doesn't include a hideaway third row seat or second row? Not everybody needs it this way, at least the seats (especially the rear) will be much more comfy than Ford & Chrysler, and you can still fold flat all seats if you want."

Have you sat in the GM vans or the Freestar and Grand Caravan!?! I have...I know - I'm lucky. They're about the same you know, but the Sienna does have comfier seats.

...looks like someones having trouble...

montanafan

Side Curtain Air Bags will be a lower level consideration factor of a minority of purchasers, not a be-all-end-all item. They will be a post purchase justification for a larger amount of buyers.

alpha01

IMO, you're way off on the SAC thing. The recent IIHS test sparked VERY heated discussions on the sedans threads, and are very well publicized, from the WSJ to USA Today.

Lack of side curtains is going to be a major issue, with every other newly designed minivan offering them.

~alpha

rctennis3811

alpha's right...

spartanmann

Failure to offer the hideaway seats, side curtain air bags, etc.. is a fatal flaw. Apologists say "not everyone want that". Well not everyone wants air conditioning, power steering, power locks, and a FM radio. Yet that is all standard equipment and is the minimum that is expected by minivan buyers. When you don't even offer as an option, what the competition has as standard equipment, you are doomed to the rebate game and rental fleet sales. GM knows this. The only question is why they are bothering to do it.

dan165

Side impact air bags are available / standard on the current vans and the new one also. The curtains would be nice but I don't think they are as high on the list of must haves that some people are making them out to be. Most of the vans I see are lower end base models anyway.

The current vans comparatively drive extremely well as is. Beefed up tires and brakes can only make things better. From what I hear the hide away seats have a down side in that the cabin noise is higher with them so there is a bit of a trade off and the fold flat seats seem good.

I'm not in the market at all but I do rent vans for work so I have tried a few different ones and the GM ones drive as good as the best in my opinion.

Styling wise, the Buick seems to be the winner for sure but that's the only one I saw at the auto show so..

alpha01

"Most of the vans I see are lower end base models anyway."

Right you are. Meanwhile, Toyota and Honda are making wads of cash on Sienna XLEs and Ody EX-Ls because consumers are willing to pay for refinement, comfort, and convenience levels more befitting of Lexuses and Acuras.

These new vans represent improvement over the current offerings. But so what? They will likely not make a difference to anyone who would have otherwise bought a Sienna or Odyssey. Even DCX has its Caravan faithful. I think buyers of these vans will be cross-shopping Sedonas and Freestars, or not cross-shopping because they are GM employees/die-hards.

~alpha

dan165

Don't know if they are making wads of cash on vans but you are right, they are taking the top end of the market with their product and they are surely making money. The volume on the lower end will continue to be Chrysler and GM I'm sure. GM is second to Chrysler in Canada for van volume sales, not sure about the U.S.

I don't think these "new" vans are going to compete head on with Toyota and Honda, but not everyone can be at the top end of the market either. I'd bet 70%+ of people buy base or near base vans and there is lots of money to be made there also. Even the majority of the Siennas I see are the base models with plastic wheel covers. GM still charges more for comparable vans than Chrysler so I think they still make a little money with them. Who knows..

spartanmann

The profit is made on high end vehicles regardless of the type. That's why GM makes Cadillac and big luxury SUV's. You are right that most people buy a mid level van in the $25,000 range. However it's that 20 per cent of the market that is willing to spend 10K more for 5K worth of content that is the big profit center. The top luxury models are the Sienna XLE and DC Town and Country Limited. It's hard to imagine this new van cutting into their sales at all. Again - Freestar sales are lower than the Windstar it replaced. Hard to see how GM will avoid the same problem.

rooney55

If GM just gave up the three identical van idea, a lot of problems would be eliminated. Give the luxury and class to Buick, the sport and speed to Pontiac and the value and convenience to Chevrolet. Change the styles, change the engines. You can't have everything you want in one van. Pick your style or get out of the GM van trap!

dan165

Actually, GM should just have a Chevy version and a Buick version with upscale everything and say the 3.6L from the Rendezvous and CTS. There is little point in having 4 versions of essentially the same van in my view. The Pontiac is not even as sporty as the outgoing van in terms of looks and Saturn should get an Opel import van instead so it can really be "different".

spartanmann

You are both right on the money. Of course us lowly customers couldn't possibly know what the car buying public wants. That's why GM has focus groups to help them logically design uncompetitive products.

dan165

What's even more strange about the vans is that GM seems to be doing a reasonable job with it's new cars and the trucks are mostly all good. I don't think these are going to be bad vans but I don't see them as much more than an update of what they have. Expanding to Saturn with them make no sense and the Pontiac version could easily be dropped with no change in sales.

ateixeira

The whole idea of a sporting van is silly, dump the Pontiac one completely. Sell just two - a basic one and a luxurious one. That's more than enough, IMO.

Dan beat me to it.

Let Saturn sell a version of the Opel Zafira van. GM even builds one for Subaru to sell in Japan!

-juice

jchan2

Subaru calls the Opel Zafira the Subaru Traviq.

dan165

I don't understand why the Opel didn't come instead. My guess is, they wanted something at Saturn ASAP and modifying the Opel would take too long. Hopefully they will bring some Opels over for Saturn, seems to make a lot of sense to me and their cars would sell better I think. I'm sure Springhill could build them to keep the UAW happy also.

vanman1

Any pictures of the SWB 05 Uplander or Montana out there? I wasn't liking the 2005 look as much so we recently picked up a 04 Montana. So far we love it though I would have preferred the 3.5.

montanafan

There is no longer any Short Wheelbase Montana available in the USA (2004 was last year for them, stopped production month or so ago). Both the 2005 Montana or the 2005 Montana SV6 are only Extended Lengths. Not sure if Chevrolet has a Shorty 2005 Venture, but they will not have a 2005 Uplander in the Short Wheelbase.

swb

I spoke to a customer support person at Chevrolet several weeks ago and he indicated that the Uplander would be available in the short version in US. He read me the dimensions off a data sheet. Can anyone confirm this?

theo2709

The SWB versions will be sold only in Canada.

montanafan

Very surprising that Customer Support would have advance specs available to a future vehicle, the Uplander.

First you must understand that GM is building TWO different 2005 Vans. The current vans will be built as 2005s until September. They will only be available as Long Wheelbase in the USA. The Regular Length will be available in Canada. Come September, GM will statrt building the new generation SRVs as 2005s also. Everything I have read only indicates a Long Wheelbase models in the new generation which includes the Uplander.

rctennis3811

What are SRVs?

jchan2

SRV stands for Sport Recreation Vehicle, I guess.

dan165

I'm surprised they would stop making the SWB for the US market. Probably 1/4 of the GM vans I see are SWB and probably 1/3 of the DC vans. Seems like a big chunk of the market to give up. Some people don't need or want the full size vans.

I am also surprised there is a 2005 carry over of the old vans. I would have thought production of the "new" vans would be ramping up soon.

alpha01

Considering the "new" vans are barely "new", I dont think it matters much. People who buy these vans arent looking for top-notch performance, safety, utility, quality, etc. They're just looking for "good" vehicles, which no dobut these vans will be. But- for the rest of us- its 2004/2005, and "good" is no longer enough. My bet is that these vans will sell well with the GM loyal, those on a budget, and those holding GM cards (which is indeed different than GM loyal).

~alpha

dan165

Well, not everyone can afford $40K Siennas and Oyds. GM should be able to sell these at a good price as the added costs of the new interior, the 3.5L and upgraded tires/brakes can't be much.

alpha01

It comes down to a features tradeoff. Vans like the Ford Freestar are priced very similarly to the Sienna/Ody at MSRP and have similar features. BUT after you factor in the $4000 rebate, you can get a lot more bang for your buck features wise in the Freestar. That said, a basic Sienna 8 passenger CE with side curtains options package is less than $25,000, and since its been on the market a year, can be had closer to invoice in most areas.

~alpha

ateixeira

I've seen Sienna CEs for $22k, LEs for $24k, at a local no-haggle dealer. Toyota offers anything from stripped to loaded. Oddly the loaded ones are in higher demand and command a bigger amount above invoice.

BTW, GM's acronym for these is CSV - crossover sport van. But all these labels are pretty silly, really.

-juice

swb

I spoke to Chevrolet Customer Support again today and they indicated from their documentation that the 2005 Uplander and Montana srv6 will be built with a regular and extended wheelbase in US. They also said the Saturn Relay and Buick Terrazo(sp) look to be available only in the extended length. I hope their right because I can't fit an extended length van in my garage. Planned start of production date is supposed to be Sept. 27.

montanafan

Chevrolet Customer Assistance is incorrect about at least the Montana SV6. Pontiac as recently as this month, in a product info update I was shown, has stated that the SV6 will be offered only in Extended Wheelbase with seven-passenger seating in both FWD and AWD. Again that should mean at least the USA.

Chevrolet's web site dosen't mention two lengths.

 Also, everything I have read talks about one seating configuration, 7 passenger with fold flat third row with convenience center. This seating configuration is not currently available with the regular wheelbase models because the lack of space behind the third row. That would also have to be the case for the next generation.

dan165

Lots of people like SWB vans for many reasons. GM would be stupid to get rid of them. They should at least have the Chevy version available in the U.S. Pontiac and Chevy will have SWB in Canada for sure.

Alpha, I was actually talking C$, sorry. Stripped Siennas go for C$32K here but most on the lot seem to be in the C$35-40K slot. I see well equipped Chevy Ventures EWB with alloys advertised for $26K and change.

ateixeira

Ah, that explains it! :-)

-juice

vanman1

Longer wheel base won't fit in my garage (due to the stairs going down to the basement) which is one of the reasons we looked at the GM vans. If they didn't have them we would have bought a Chrysler van.

I don't suspect I am alone with this issue. GM should make SWB for both the US and Canada or they will loose market share. I also see more and more new developments that have houses with very small garages compared to the older homes. SWB vans may even be a growth segment.

jchan2

That's where the European Micro-Vans fit in, if they ever come here.

dan165

Ya, that Zaffira or something that is sold in Europe would make a great Saturn van. Lots of small garages these days in the burbs. Land is getting expensive and houses are getting squeezed!

jchan2

lots are getting smaller. I live on .8 of an acre in a twelve year old house. The brand new houses in town only have about a quarter of an acre, some even less! Plus the builders are charging more for less house. In my area, a house with no brick and a small two car garage goes for around $300,000. Those microvans would really help with the tight garages. I can only fit my Odyssey since I have an extra deep two car garage.

dan165

Yep.. the houses in the Toronto area seem to be about 10 ft. apart these days. Small lots squished together with tiny garages and big price tags. Average house price is around $275K these days, ouch. Most of the new ones are $300K+ here also.

jchan2

can be bought in my area in the lower $200K range. Nice houses are in the upper $200K range and lower $300K range.

vanman1

Our house is 15 years old and only short fits because there is a stairway at the back of the garage going to the basement. Montana just fits with about 2 inches to spare. I think the Dodge would have been fine also.