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Comments
Toyota Motor Corp., the world's largest seller of gasoline-electric autos, raised the starting price of the Prius
hybrid car 2.1 percent for the 2007 model and will add a new version to help boost sales.
The increase is $450, to $22,175, the company's Torrance, California-based U.S. sales unit said in a statement today. The new Touring Edition begins at $23,070 and has larger wheels and a stiffer suspension. The 2007 models go on sale this month.
This is positive for the Prius, indicating the TCH hasn't cut that much into its sales.
Someone asked me too ... "Let us know when you have some fresh views on the Prius to share" Well this is a fresh view and some new information. Might I challenge all posters to provide information rather than bickering and personal snipes.
cheers,
MidCow
Maybe someone can offer him some solutions.
YMMV,
MidCow
http://toyota.jp/prius/grade/touring/
Seat-height adjustment and tilt/telescope steering wheel will not appear until the 2008(possibly 2009USA) model Prius(if they do ever happen).
The 2007 Prius is a 2006 carry over with new numeric option packages, standard side and side curtain SRS, and the addition of the touring package for the USA which has been available in Japan and Europe since 2004.
YMMV,
MidCow
Add a 6-speed manual and I am a Prius owner! Maybe even one anyway if gas goes to $5.00 per gallon.
So you'll be an owner in a few months - the way gas prices are rising?
There will never be a true manual (6-speed or otherwise) Prius or any other HSD powertrain Toyota. I suspect that you knew that though before you made the comment about becoming a Prius owner.
"There will never be a true manual (6-speed or otherwise) Prius or any other HSD powertrain Toyota."
Actually if you think about it from a fuctional engineering design perspective the currrent HSD system has the following elements:
MG1 - Input/output
MG2 - Input/output
MG3 - Input/output( optional in some cases with AWD)
ICE - Input
Drive Wheels - Output
The HSD is not the only solution to connect theses inputs/outputs together, it is just the current solution.
There is absolutely no reason why another solution could not be implemented, a solution that connected used a 6-speed manual transmission instead of a "planetary ring and aun gear transmission" or the Toyota coined term "Power Split System"
YTMV, T=transmission
MidCow
Yes, it is. IMO if Toyota were to replace the PSD with a 6-speed transmission then they would come up with a new TLA to describe it. (TLA = three letter acronym)
MG1 - Input/output
MG2 - Input/output
MG3 - Input/output( optional in some cases with AWD)
ICE - Input
Drive Wheels - Output
The HSD is not the only solution to connect theses inputs/outputs together, it is just the current solution. "
From a functional engineering design perspective, the Prius' HSD THSII is designed to minimize emissions and maximize MPG while still giving an acceptable level of performance. This is accomplished by tying MG1, MG2 and the ICE together with the PSD, and letting the computer adjust the various RPM's (and even direction of travel) of those devices to do just that. That's basically the transmission in the car. All electronic. No moving parts. No clutch to wear out. No transmission gears to shift. No dogs to get bent.
"There is absolutely no reason why another solution could not be implemented, a solution that connected used a 6-speed manual transmission instead of a "planetary ring and aun gear transmission" or the Toyota coined term "Power Split System"
Could you perhaps give an example of how you would incorporate a manual transmission into the setup, while maintaining the low emissions and high MPG nature of the car(s)?
"From a functional engineering design perspective, the Prius' HSD THSII is designed to minimize emissions and maximize MPG while still giving an acceptable level of performance. " Actually this isn't exactly true.
First emissions has absolutely nothing to do with the transmission. The engine Atkinson cycle does shift the torque curve to a lower rpm. The acceptable level of performance is again a relative measure and has nothing to do with the transmission. It is a frugal combination of a small ICE engine augmented with electric power.
Devsienna also asked:
"Could you perhaps give an example of how you would incorporate a manual transmission into the setup, while maintaining the low emissions and high MPG nature of the car(s)? "
Simple, if emissions is important retain the same ICE engine set-up ( this means diesel is out even though it would be more fuel efficient).
However instead of The Planetary Sun gear transmsission ( or as Toyota likes to call it trying to fool people into meaning something they invented special, PSD ( Power Split Device)) use a maunal 6- speed transmission. MG1 and MG2 would still function equivalently activated electonically ( example solenoid or electric clutch or even better completely DBW). traction battey is still charge by regeneration, plus you have the advantage of elilimating double energy conversion during highway crusiing with traction battery is charged to upper threshold.
Just one quick example; again the HSD is just one of many, many solutions.
Your goals appear to be: (1) low emissions (2) Higher fuel economy and (3) reasonable performance ( the Prius is pretty slow though).
These three goals can be accomplished with many , many solutions.
Are you willing to give up luxury features? if so how many?
radiom, air conditioning, power seats, power windows, moon roof, power steering, remote door locks, seat adjustments, sound insulation.
Are you willing to give up handling and ride comfort?
Are you willing to give up safety features? abs, traction control , vsc, EBF?
YMMV,
MidCow
That has yet to be decided in court. Solomon still holds the patent on the PSD as used in the Toyota hybrids. It could be a BIG payday for the real inventors. Toyota has copied others since it started business. No need to stop now.
I don't think you will ever see a manual shift hybrid from Toyota. They do not bother with small numbers. They are only after mass markets. I am kind of surprised that Honda dropped their HCH with the manual transmission. I think it sold well. Less troublesome than the CVT.
They did it becausethe CVT managed the battery life far better. I owned the manual, and I could easily run the battery down to nothing by using it to it's fullest advantage. With the CVT, which I also drove, you were at the mercy of the CVT and could not utilize the battery down low, which is better for the longer life of the battery.
That's also in part why the MT was slightly better in MPG - because the owners used the battery more, although in theory the CVT should be able to do a better job.
The Prius fuel efficiency advantage over a "normal" drive system is derived from several design "features":
I'm told about 20% comes from regenerative braking.
A lot comes from shutdown of the ICE when not "needed".
The Atkinson cycle improves fuel efficiency a lot as well - though the MGs are needed with this engine tune as the ICE has low power and torque.
The CVT allows the ICE to remain in its' optimum power band as well as its' optimum RPM range for fuel efficiency and low emissions, making use of the atkinson cycle practical. You wouldn't accept driving the car with a manual - it would be too gutless.
As it is, the Prius has adequate power. I didn't find it wanting. It's no sports car, it's a different ride. You drive for economy - that is the thrill not speed and power.
Note that the other available hybrids are also non-manual transmission vehicles. This is a hint that the system needs to control the gear ratio.
Further, regarding the "HSD" system of sun/planet gears, I don't see any better way to start/stop the ICE so often reliably.
"I'm pretty sure ..."
"I'm told ..."
"the Prius has adequate power"
"You drive for economy - that is the thrill not speed and power." too each his own!
" I don't see any better way to start/stop the ICE so often reliably.
Lots of opinion and supposition and that is your opinion and that is fine. My opinn is different.
I myself don't think everything has been invented yet and I continue looking for a better ways.
Drive-on,
MidCow
This confirms what I suspected. You do not understand how an HSD powertrain works. Am I going to explain it to you? Heck no, that would be a complete waste of my time.
I completely understand how the HSD power train works! Go back through the years and read my posts.
Apparently you missed the point of my message, I do not like to drive automatics.
Your opinion may be different but don't imply I don't understand or that explaining to me would be ".. a complete waste of time."
Cheers,
MidCow
It is a fleet management company
http://www.lovelandfyi.com/region-story.asp?ID=6496
District moves to energy-efficient hybrid vehicles
By Amber Baker The Daily Reporter-Herald
The Thompson School District purchased its first hybrid car in 2002 because district officials couldn’t see giving their newly hired energy manager a car that got only nine miles to the gallon — it just “wouldn’t make sense.”
“It was mostly about conservation,” said Ken Scritchfield, buying manager for the district. “We wanted to make a statement to the community that we’re trying to be conservative with our funds.”
Today the school district has replaced three of its other vehicles, mostly trucks and vans, with Honda Civic and Toyota Prius hybrids. They’ve all proven to be very durable, reliable cars, Scritchfield said.
“I’ve been really impressed with them,” he said. “We’ve had no major problems. All aspects of the cars have held up really well. They’re just very well-built cars.”
Hybrids run partly on gas, partly on electricity, Scritchfield explained. The cars run on electricity when the car is idling in traffic, which helps to conserve gasoline. The electric battery doesn’t require any plugging in; the battery cells recharge as the car is running.
The cars have proven to be most cost-effective in terms of gasoline expenses. A 10- or 12-gallon tank gets 45 to 52 miles to the gallon; usually each car requires a fill-up only once a month when driven an average of 30 miles a day, Scritchfield said.
Hybrids are also not overly expensive vehicles, Scritchfield said. A new hybrid runs between $21,000 and $23,000 new, with the added benefit of a 10,000-mile or 10-year warranty on the electrical devices.
“They’ve just been really good vehicles. I’ve been really surprised.” Scritchfield said.
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Gary, we have gone over this ground before, and we are both too stubborn to give ground, but allow me to make my points AGAIN please.
1. First of all - Toyota was SMART to target the "greenies" in Hollywood to "UNOFICIALLY PROMOTE" the Prius when it was new, the Generation 1 Prius, back in 2000. This was a good way to get "free pub" for the California region, which Toyota marketers properly deemed a good starting point. That's just good marketing.
2. I have said this before and posted this on many forums, and so far I have NOT BEEN WRONG. There has yet to be one human in the USA who has admitted or said to anyone that "I bought a Prius ONLY because Sandra Bullock/Leo Decaprio/Insert Hollywood Star Here bought one. That might be nice to complain about if you are opposed to Hollywood types, but the REALITY is that NO ONE makes a decision on what car to buy based on what famous person owns that car. At least not a person with half a brain. If you want to say that you THINK people bought the car ONLY because an actor bought one, then SAY IT all you want - but that does not make it true.
3. The Prius does not need famous backers to have a waiting list. It can stand on it's own as a high mileage, highly reliable, well-built car. There are more than 600,000 of them on the roads of the world, and the overwhelming response of the owners is POSITIVE. Sure, there have been some problems, as with ANY high technology car. But that percentage is so low as to be almost negligible considering the total number of owners. There are VASTLY HIGHER NUMBERS of owners who are 100% pleased with the car than there are complainers and you know that is true.
4. Toyota never paid one actor one single dollar for an endorsement, at least to my knowledge. The stars promoted the car as a great, new, green, cool option of a car which had never before hit the USA in a 5-passenger family sedan. It was then and is now a fantastic use of available technology to achieve extremely high MPG from a comfortable, roomy, midsize sedan.
So your point that Toyota "sold out to Hollywood" is totally bogus.
Hybrids: The Great Battery Debate #513 of 514 Prius battery replaced at 88k miles by gagrice Sep 18, 2006 (11:29 pm
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef2b471/513
MidCow
Who knows since this was an annonymous ad in a newspaper I believe.
Whatever occured it's supposition for the rest of us.
It is in the disclosure on a car that sold on eBay. I know you are not a fan of eBay Motors. It is very popular. With current listings topping 39k and sales in the thousands per month. It is probably one of the best ways to get your vehicle noticed all over the world. Most of the listings are from dealers. Maybe your dealership uses eBay.
88k battery failure
Toyota customer service. I have a 06 Prius and HH Limited. My Prius has the newest version of the software and hardware: I wanted that in both cars. They are not interchange able. The Prius system is the most advanced one. And there is a difference between the to systems. I was told the next generation Highland will have the system in the Prius. I was also told that the HH will have an update coming out this winter but it will not have the same type features as the Prius version. I believe HH has a ver 4.2 and the Prius had a ver 5. I have not looked at this info since early June so I could be wrong on the exact version but they are deffinetly different. But like I said the hardware is not compatible to just install the dvd for the change.
Occasionall on the Energy Monitor Screen the battery instead of displaying blue stripes, it displays green stripes all the way to the top of the battery. Again, this happens only very occasionally. Can anyone give mw some info of what this means?
At any rate, drums are fine for rear wheels. Only 10-20% of braking is done by the rear wheels (unless you are backing up, but you don't do that at speed). 10% is the usually accepted figure. The only advantage to rear discs is they could be less prone to locking. With built in antilock this shouldn't be an issue.
If posed to the typical 40-55 mph commuter would you pay extra for disks on the back? The answer would likely be, 'No, why?' I've driven 500,000 miles over the last 20 yrs or so and never even considered the need for rear disks.
Other markets have differing 'needs' which may or may not be valid. By my experiences in my driving they offer no added value to a vehicle.
I'd rather have 4-wheel disc brakes and NOT pay extra for them--which is what I did.
BUT....
It give you worse handle becuase ther is less tire contact with the road. However, many Prius owners falsley thing it imporves handling. The sidewalls have less flex and the ride is apparently stiffer, but it deos not handle better. However, higher inflation pressures reduce rolling resistance slightly and typically provide a slight improvement in steering response and cornering stability.
If over inflated too much it can accelrate tire wear wirht the center tread wearing out first.
Now some links to back what I am saying:
http://cars.cartalk.com/content/advice/tirepressure.html
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=1
http://www.viamagazine.com/top_stories/safety/tirepressure96.asp
cruis'n and roll'n and shift'n :shades:
MidCow