DODGE RAM DIESEL vs V10 FOR TOWING
Has anyone figured out the cost break even point
for the Cummins diesel vs the V10? I plan to tow a
10,000 lb 5th wheel about 100,000 to 150,000 miles
over the next 10 years. My thought is the V10 will
tow as well as the diesel and it will take at least
100,000 miles to recover the extra cost of the
diesel. If I'm wrong about this I will stand
corrected. Also what about the cost of maintaining
each choice?
for the Cummins diesel vs the V10? I plan to tow a
10,000 lb 5th wheel about 100,000 to 150,000 miles
over the next 10 years. My thought is the V10 will
tow as well as the diesel and it will take at least
100,000 miles to recover the extra cost of the
diesel. If I'm wrong about this I will stand
corrected. Also what about the cost of maintaining
each choice?
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Comments
-powerisfun
Anyone else have any words of wisdom for me?
KenD
Wildman
Sorry, apparenly everybody does not know that a PS is faster than a cummins, anyway not around here.
markcord
I don't believe I said it would out-run a V10, besides you can't go any faster than I can, some about a computer limit on speed. I don't belive the V10 is the only one that can smoke the tires, ours starts about 20 feet on the line, and keeps smokin if you don't lift. You need to know these same engines put out over 600 hp and 800 ft lbs of toque in real trucks. The V10 (Dodge) is a good engine, better the the Ford powerwise, but it is not the Viper engine. The PS in not a bad engine, but it is a medium duty engine. Talk to some of the ford mecs who work on the PS, most say if you get 80K on the injector pump, you have done good. Mileage... 17 city, 23 hiway, not bad for 6,860 pound pickup.
Wildman
The range can be a HUGE factor, depending on where you travel. If you go to isolated areas with that big trailer, the diesel will probably give you over 100 miles more range. In my part of the woods, nearly every service station not supplies diesel these days, too.
As far as accelleration, Wildman could have put it simpler, the newer Cummins has PLENTY of get up and go. The old ones were a little sluggish. But the new ones take off the line plenty fast to blow by anyone that isn't peeling out (really comfortable for passengers and tough to avoid "Exhibition of Speed" tickets). Highway passing accelleration is great too (I'm guessing better than the v-10 when towing the trailer, although I could be wrong). So how fast do you NEED to accellerate in a pickup anyway.
powerisfun,
your comment about the diesel being worse for the environment is WRONG. First, the much higher efficiency of the diesel greatly reduces CO2 and Ozone emmissions. Secondly, the soot produced by diesels is heavy and falls to the ground quickly, where natural enzymes and other forces in nature quickly break it down to a benign state in the soil. Sure, it is more visible in the air, but that shows that the soot particles are large and heavy, and once they fall out of the air, you are no-longer breathing it. Sure, the diesels are louder and put out that soot, but when you are driving one, you are not exposed to it. Get out of the truck at McDonalds instead of using the drive-through (which you can't go through with a trailer anyway).
As for short range driving. I always hear people say the diesel is not good for short range driving. I understand all the engineering reasons for this theory. But in reality, I have seen no specific problems with standard everyday driving.
lvstang,
Your buddy's tranny/front end problems sound bad, but I have been around lots of Ram/Cummins, and have not seen any of these problems. Our old '89 Ram/Cummins did have crummy brakes, but no other problems. My dad's '97 Ram/Cummins (over 50,000 miles) has had no problems. Just goes to show that there are lemons out there, no matter how good the product is. But if someone is overly concerned by the tranny, wait until early 2000 when the Cummins is coupled with a new Allison tranny (if rumors are correct).
I do have to say, however, that you are just plain WRONG about the noise of the diesel noise in the Cummins. I have done plenty of driving in a '97 Ram/Cummins. Have had NO problem talking or listening to music (although, really I mainly listen to news radio). You have to remember that the Ram has very good insulation that muffles the engine noise to a subtle background rumble. Just enought to let you monitor the engine with your ears and give you the constant confidence that all is well under the hood. I can't see how you could have any experience in one of the current Ram/Cummins if you say that the noise is so bad you can't converse or listen to music. The older models were definitely worse (I had an '89).
Outside the truck, or with the windows down, I will admit, now that is a different story. Not a big deal to me, though.
from ford power strokes to Dodge Cummins, and they could not have been happier. The conditions in Honduras are extremely tough on vehicles and I was told the Fords were junk before 100K while the Dodges were just like new after 250K. We rode all over the country in one of those trucks and it was a joy to ride in.
San Pedro Sula is in a valley surrounded by mountains, Kinda like Phoenix, and in the morning the skies are clear but by mid afternoon there is a black haze over the entire city and you can't even see the mountains. This is because almost every truck or car in Honduras is a diesel. The black diesel dust is everywhere, and you can't sit down without getting it on you. So the agrument that diesels don't pollute doesn't hold water.
I still like that Cummins though. Uhh, Uhh, Uhh.
You people who are talking about acceleration between V-10 and diesel, what does it matter out of all the 3/4 ton trucks I have owned I have never wanted to drag race one of them no matter how hard you try 75% of the vehicles out there will out accelerate a nearly 6000# truck.
Thanks
Ozone & carbon monoxide (which turn into the brown smog familiar to those in Los Angeles and other polluted cities) are the biggest pollutants from all cars (gas & diesel). But cars are generally a small portion of the pollution, especially in third world cities where automobiles per capita are way less than in the US. In general, the poorer the nation, the less cars per capita, the more polluted. Industrial pollution (petroleum electricity generating facilities, refineries, steel plants, etc.), domestic heating, trash burning, . . . are the biggest contributors to air pollution.
So don't start blaming diesels for being bigger polluters without the facts, especially when, in fact, they are probably polluting less due to their greater efficiency. They certainly pump out less ozone and carbon monoxide. Oh, and by the way, third world countries have never been known for their well-tuned cars (most I saw in Honduras looked like diesels because they were pumping out so much smoke).
richinks,
I don't understand where you were coming from with the following statement related to the efficiency difference, "But that is one advantage that doesn't matter on the flat." It seems to me the difference on the flat between loaded/towing gas (about 9 MPG) and Diesel (+15 MPG), is rather significant (roughly 2/3 increase in mileage). Oh well, if you guys don't want to listen to someone (lariat1) who has had both the diesel and V-10, and is unquestionably happier with the diesel, go ahead.
Also, gas pollution does not leave a heavy black oily film on everything like diesel does.
By the way, I'm still leaning toward the diesel.
I have to admit, the PS is quieter when idling, but when you accelerate, they get much noiser inside the cab. I have driven several PSs since we got the 99 Quad Cab, just to be sure we did not make a mistake. I don't know if the PS gets quieter when towing (no dealer will let me test tow their trucks) or not, but ours does. Even though the measurements of the Ford HDs are bigger than the Dodge, I could reach around and open the rear slider from the drivers seat with the belt on, in the extended cab. Cannot even get close to reaching the rear window in ours, thats why we have a power slider. After driving the PS and getting back into ours, it was like getting into a rocket ship. Hey, Dodge should be paying me for this.
Wildman
Laramie, I bet your boat weights more than most 5th wheels, but I sure hope it has less wind resistance or you really have a hard tow and poor performance in the water(G).
Rich
I do know a fair amount about pollution (kinda my major in college - Environmental Studies). If you have VERY heavy concentrations of 'smokers' (diesel, coal, wood, and yes, even gasoline burners (especially the poorly tuned cars and oil burners down there); cleaners, processors, etc.) you will get oily buildup. I'm just saying, I wouldn't start blaming the pollution in places like that on diesel autos, especially the relatively very efficient and clean burning engines like Powerstrokes and Cummins. At any rate, the mountains and lack of trade winds compound the pollution problem.
Hey, I just don't want you to feel guilty with that new Cummins.
Funniest thing I saw in San Pedro Sula was a group of us in a mini-van taxi going from the airport to some suburb southwest of the airport and we passed a firetruck on its way to a fire. I guess the "manana" attitude prevails, even in emergencies. I was there on my Honeymoon last year (Guanaja Island), just one week before Hurricane Mitch ripped through the place.
Rich,
I guess Dodge and GM are trying to hand over the entire 3/4 & 1-ton market to Ford. You can't even order a GM 2500 until March, and will have to wait until nearly the new year for ordering a Dodge. Economy is just too good, I guess. Maybe we could keep Slick Willy for a 3rd term (he he he, just kiddin').
Hey everybody dont get me wrong the V-10 is a great engine, I just didnt like it for towing for a long distance like I do up here in Alaska I have to tow at least 350 mile to get my boat to the ocean and diesel is at every service station up here so for me the diesel is the way to go, if I lived somewhere that diesel was not so easy to come by I would own a V-10 in a heartbeat.
Anyway, back from travel and liesure. How about those gas and diesel pickups?
kcram
Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
It sounds like you have the proverbial "truck from hell" in terms of specific equipment combination. DC knew they were going to end 2000 VERY early, and probably didn't order enough supplies for the short 2000 run. The dealer allocation "excuse" may also be valid for the same reason - short model year = less trucks for small dealers.
By any chance, did you order from a 5-Star dealer?
kcram
Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
Six speed diesels have been cancelled for 2000 - obviously, since the 6 speeds will all get the new upgraded Cummins in January. Osborne, you will be getting a very rare truck - a 2000 Cummins six-speed - hold on to it as long as you can
Not to upset anybody, but when I ordered my Ram narkly 4 years ago, I sat down and signed the papers on Saturday, Feb 17, 1996. Monday was Presidents Day, the factory took the order that Tuesday, and the truck was produced just 8 weeks later. The awful part was the 3-1/2 week train ride from Lago Alberto, Mexico to Ramsey, New Jersey. It was (and is) a 5-star dealer, and thios was a truck that I know they wouldn't have trouble selling - while I was waiting for mine, a similar one came in as part of their regular stock order, and they were advertising it in their Sunday newspaper ad - it was gone in days.
kcram
Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
It was actually in the works as recently as this past summer, but the deal fell apart just before the 2000s began production. In its place, Cummins has reprogrammed their engine computer to "momentarily detune" during shifts, so beginning in January with the 2001 models, the Ram with Cummins and automatci will be rated at 235hp and 460 lb-ft, up from 215/420, and matching the rating for the 5 speed manual. The 6 speed manual will get the new 245/505 rating.
When the heavy duty Ram is redesigned in 2002, they are rumored to get a version of a new automatic, codenamed Brute, which had initially been in development for the Viper. It's a 5 speed automatic with Chrysler's AutoStick feature, and if it can handle Viper output, then the V10 and Cummins in the Ram should be no problem.
kcram
Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
The way I see it, the Cummins is the ONLY way to go with your driving and ownership profile. I've seen plenty of Cummins with HUGE 5th wheels out there. The Cummins engine shouldn't be the limiting factor. The auto tranny might possibly be a limiting factor. Seems like a 3500 Cummins Dually would handle any 5th wheel, if you even need that much truck.
The 2500 Rams have been downgraded since last year, my Y2K Ram is only rated at 16,000 GCWR, not 20,000 like last year. I have a Cummins, 5spd, 3.54's, QC, SB, 4x4, Dana 80 (R), and a Dana 60 (F). I have been in contaact with Mopar to find out why Y2K 2500's are different from 1999. Everything you write makes terrific sense and that is why I bought my truck because it had a 20,000 GCWR last year. Not that the new rating would keep me from hooking a rather large load behind my truck, but I would sure like to know why, I was floored when I got my truck home and read the new stats...........Bill
That is exactly what I thought when purchasing my Y2K Ram, it also has both camper and towing packages. The last years catalog rates my Ram 4x4
at 13,700 Tow and 20,000 GCWR, the only way it would change the ratings is if the truck was destined for California, and the last time I checked I was (5) states away from California. I have not got a reply back from Chrysler yet, hopefully soon.........Bill
Going back to sjh3, is there anything to what he was saying about the V-10 towing more than the Cummins? That was the first time I have ever heard anything about that. I know what I would rather have for heavy use. Seems to me that the Cummins has plenty to work with just about any 5th wheel. Besides, can't you do aftermarket upgrades to help with heavy hauling/towing (i.e. airbags for suspension, etc).
My Owners Manual and my window sticker both stste the same thing, and for some reason it changes because of the 3.54's and the Quad Cab. All other 4x4's (regular cabs and 3500) it makes no difference what Gear Ratio is installed, according to the manual. Regardless of the manual if I need to haul something large I still will, because my components are still the same as the 1 ton, Dana 80, Dana 60, and NV4500HD tranny.
GWMoore,
Dodge does not make a single wheel 3500
(1 ton), that is why I bought a 2500 Cummins, so I thought....................Bill