Nissan Titan vs. Ford F150

triat

but most didn't believe 27 years ago that new little Honda Accord & later a Toyota Camry would even sell. Let alone Japanese companies do so well in the U.S., on the big 3's own turf.

I think Nissan will sell as many Titans as they can make. Right now this is a drop in the bucket to Ford, but I don't think Ford's millions mean success & quality. I admire quality over numbers. Nissan already expanding their production confirms I am not the only one.

Nissan listened to potential customers and got so much right in just a matter of months! The big 3 should feel lucky Toyota didn't go after them head on at first, & that Nissan waited this long. Nissan has become innovative the last few years.

I don't think it's Nissan's fault the big 3 left the market wanting when the big 3 had a monopoly on the market for decades? No matter whether Nissan sells only a 100,000 or 150,000 - the Titan is a success.

Judging by all the adjustments Nissan has made with Titan, I'm pretty confident they'll work out some of the options snafu's later. Unfortunately higher manufacturing costs are directly proportionate to more options availability.

bowke28

the initial estimates were 100k PER YEAR...not for '04. since the '04 model year is short, they will target 60k. the goal for 2005 is 100k, and 150k for 2006. the long term goal is to be the #3 light pickup manufacturer. overtaking ford and GM is not possible.

dustyk

>>>...Nissan will sell as many Titans as they can make. Right now this is a drop in the bucket to Ford...<<<

Not really. Most Asian nameplates make a lot more off of each sale compared to Dodge, Ford, and GM. And that's from the time of manufacture to the time of sale. Chrysler, Ford and GM are constantly discounting product because of competition and to keep moving units. They have much larger manufacturing facilities and have a much higher break even point.

Toyota and Nissan won't have this problem with trucks. They have intelligently geared production to a realistic projected market share. Their business success is not based on the assumption of market share, but on margins.

Regards,
Dusty

triat

aggiemph1

I may not be a businessman, but it would seem to me that Nissan with less volume and two brand new factories (one for new v8 engine and one for titan/armada production) to pay for, as well as the expense of training all those new to the auto manufacturing industry Mississippians and Tennesseens would DECREASE Nissans Margins, especially when you take into account that Nissan is undercutting Ford on MSRP. Ford has the economies of scale on their side for controlling unit prices thanks to their volume.

What is dragging Ford down is trying to keep up with GM, whose apparent new corporate goal is to sell as many vehicles as it takes to pay their pension fund. Ford will lose any incentive battle w/ GM especially since the new f150 is more expensive. Without the artificial demand GM is placing on the market with their heavy incentives, I think that the new f150 would be a runaway financial success for Ford. With the market as it is however I think Ford would be doing good just to match 2003's net profit.

In my opintion the Titan is an excellent truck, but it won't hurt Ford like GM can.

tbeecher

As a buyer who was 105% sure that I was going to buy a Ram 1500 Hemi.. I met this Nissan Salesperson who said, "just come drive the Titan"..

I now have a Radiant Silver CC LE in my driveway. This is not a truck in like an F-150 or Ram or Silverado. If you just drive this thing with an open mind you will discover a truly great cruising vessel. This is a vessel that will attract the non-typical truck crowd. I think that there are plenty of geeks like me who want a truck but don't really want a 'truck'..

ANT14

Sidenote:

" since the new f150 is more expensive. "

Actually, Ford has already stated they have balanced out the higher cost of the new F-150 and it's yielding the same profits as the previous versions. Mainly because of some cost restruction, supplier cost reductions, as well as 60% of the new F-150 being sold are the higher (more expensive) trim versions.

aggiemph1

I hadn't heard that. That statement was based on early articles I read about the new f150 that said it was $500-$800 more expensive per model. do you think that ford will be able to maintain that 60% higher trim versions when the heritage model is discontinued? and did they go back and get better prices from their suppliers after getting the numbers back from their initial sales?

dustyk

>>>...but it would seem to me that Nissan with less volume and two brand new factories (one for new v8 engine and one for titan/armada production) to pay for, as well as the expense of training all those new to the auto manufacturing industry Mississippians and Tennesseens would DECREASE Nissans Margins, especially when you take into account that Nissan is undercutting Ford on MSRP.<<<

You're right, Ford does have the economy of scale on their side, but at predictably far less margin. It could very well be that Nissan makes as much profit on one Titan as Ford does on four F150s.

As to the capital investment of Nissan, its a good point IF Nissan floated for capital the way Chrysler, Ford and GM usually do it. But expansion of Asian nameplates in North America has so far been done with non-financed capital expenditures, meaning Toyota, Nissan, Honda have paid (mostly) cash for any expansion. So they start new production by applying their margins -- ergo profits -- directly to the bottom line.

You are also correct about squeezing suppliers, something that Chrysler, Ford and GM have become very good at. They also expect a higher defect rate when they do that. History of the Asian nameplates in the US indicates that they are far more careful in this respect than the native nameplates since they have also been far more intelligent in realizing it costs far more to fix a problem than to design reliability in to the product in the first place.

Regards,
Dusty

aggiemph1

Dusty,

I just wanted to say thanks for the thoughtful reply. Where do you get your information about auto industry business practices? I am assuming you work/worked in the field for a while.

nvbanker

I'm aware of the topic of this thread, but I wonder if nobody thinks the Titan is going to make a hit on the Silverado, and why that doesn't seem to come up? How many Tundra sales will be disintermediated with the Titan introduction? And what about Dodge? Personally, I think their exterior appearance is tops, but hate the rubbermaid (typical Dodge) interior look and materials, and that would be a deal breaker. Are they going to suffer sales to the Titan? Or are there only 2 trucks on the market now, the F-150 & the Titan? Why would Ford take all the damage from this new competitor?

dustyk

I worked for GM in the '60s. I was a field representative for Buick, then went to Rochester Products Div. working for a fuel systems design team. I did automotive repair for private companies and I later worked in fleet management.

Best regards,
Dusty

dustyk

I'm not sure anyone actually suggested that Ford would take "all the damage" from Titan competition, at least that I can remember. Now being that the title of this thread is "Titan vs. F150," please don't be surprized if some over-zealous Nissan type wouldn't be attracted to it, or for that matter, some over-zealous Ford person here to protect "the name."

The entry of the Titan will serve more to put Chrysler, Ford and GM on notice that resting on brand name laurels and loyal name-loving customers will not secure market share.

Regards,
Dusty

nvbanker

I'm never surprised, Dusty!

bmwdoug

Well, hmmm, do we have Zealots? Hey, if the Titan is a better truck, it is a better truck, no matter the number of Titans on the road. Is is a better truck, I don't know. I have not learned enough about it or the competition to make that decision. But, again, if it turns out to be better then the competition, then the sales numbers are irrelevant!

BMW has about 1 to 3 % of the total automotive market, yet their cars are considered to be the best by most publications. Same with Mercedez, Lexus, etc... And, look at the computer world. Apple's Macintosh has about 5 % of the market, but is considered by many publications and users to be the best, most elegant computer system on the market. So, numbers mean nothing, it is what the Truck can do.

dustyk

I absolutely agree that sales has nothing to do with what defines a good product. But the issue here has been cluttered with the talk of brand loyalsts, some who are the prisoners of their own mind.

If the Titan is a good product, it is because of intelligent engineering, attention to detail and careful execution. Not just because its a Nissan.

I would hate to see the promise of the Titan be sadly overwhelmed by the Chevrolet-like attitude of owner superiority. And if the Titan fulfills the initial promise, I think the good folks who designed and built the Titan will proudly feel the same way.

Dusty

triat

is because for years Ford F150 "is the best selling truck"(how many hundreds of times have we seen this advertised?). The entire FoMoCo is depending on this new F150 to stop the bleeding. Both the F150 & Titan came out at the same time(same design & model year cycle). The Ram has been out 2 years, the C1500 longer..

And finally there's the Goliath on home turf vs. David who is not only little, he's just an upstart. As pointed out several times, while in this story David will not bring Goliath down, he is giving old Goliath a lesson in his own game. It's nice to see underdogs succeed....

Now I'm heading downtown for the raising of the Star! Happy New Years!!

rsholland

One of the things working against Ford, in terms of costs, is the fact that the full-size pickups share so little between the various models.

It used to be that a Ford Bronco, F-150, F-250 & F-350 shared many of the same body parts,; such as fenders, doors, hoods, grilles, dashboards, etc. Not so anymore: The new F-150 shares very little with the Super Duty models, the Expedition, or the Excursion. All those "different" parts costs in terms of engineering, manufacture and inventory. GM, Dodge, Toyota and Nissan do not have this problem.

I thought Ford was stupid to take this approach several years ago. Today I'm convinced of it. If the new F-150 and Super Duty shared the same body parts, as does the Dodge Ram et al, the F-150's MSRP could be much lower.

Bob

bowke28

the super duty (f250 and up) fords have made more money for ford since the redesign than they have spent in products. its their actual cash cow. ford sells more super duty pickups now than they do f150s. and there is a HUGE profit margin in each one.

rsholland

Then make the F-150s look exactly like the Super Duty models, and save all the extra costs associated with two completely different cabs&#151;double engineering and design costs&#151;double parts inventory&#151;and double everything else that's associated with having two completely different cabs.

I'm convinced that if the F-150 shared the same cab and front end styling as the Super Duties, the F-150's MSRP would be lower because it would be cheaper to produce. I also bet the profit-laden Super Duties would be even more profitable because of they too would be less expensive to manufacture.

Bob

bowke28

its a good point, but the ford trucks are not like the dodge and chevy trucks. they actually use a different size truck, and it would be way too big for 1/2 ton buyers.

ford has almost monopolized the 3/4 and 1 ton market with the bigger truck. but at this stage, the 1/2 ton buyers wouldnt go for a 1/2 ton thats as big as the f2/350s...just TOO big.

along the same lines, chevy and dodge use the same frame and cab whether its a 1/2 or 1 ton. thats why they have lost so mush heavy duty market share.

aggiemph1

I think Chevy has lost so much HD market share b/c of the the abysmal performance of their diesel engine prior to the introduction of the duramax. HD buyers, IMO, make their decisions based on powertrain and the 7.3 and the cummins in the dodge just outclassed the chevy's.

Also, I was under the impression that Chevy used two frames, one for the 1500 and the other for the 2500/3500 series, but kept the dimensions of the truck and the styling the same throughout the model lineup.

dustyk

>>along the same lines, chevy and dodge use the same frame and cab whether its a 1/2 or 1 ton. thats why they have lost so mush heavy duty market share.<<

That is not true. On both the Dodge and GM pick ups the 1/2-ton frame is different from the 3/4 and one-ton frames.

I have to agree with Bob. For years all three manufacturers used the same basic platform to build 1/2 through one-ton PUs. In reality it is the Superduty version that has grown out of proportion. If Ford made a one-ton version of the current F150 the truck would only be higher and turning radius MIGHT suffer. But the two versions would be pretty much the same.

For Ford the situation is even more complicated. They are really making three truck series at this moment: the "new" F150, the "old" F150, and the SuperDuty. Maybe there is some marketing strategy behind this (I doubt it), but unless Ford has completely amortised the tooling for the old F150 series, it doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to produce three different series. Forget about tooling and manufacturing, just look at the cost of maintaining an inventory supply chain of spare parts!

Dusty

obyone

"On both the Dodge and GM pick ups the 1/2-ton frame is different from the 3/4 and one-ton frames"

Actually the 3/4 and 1 ton frames are the same but differ from the half ton. The 2500HD is actually a SRW 1ton.

rsholland

and you have 3 full-size truck platforms. Hopefully the Expedition will morph into an off-shoot of the new F-150, and share as many body and interior parts as possible.

I also agree that the Super Duties are "over-sized," and not "right-sized." The Dodge and GM 3/4 & 1 on trucks are more than large enough to get the job done. Just because the customer wants the largest pickup on the planet doesn't mean they're correct.

Witness the 3/4 ton Suburban vs the Excursion: In every comparison test between these two trucks, the Suburban has won hands down. Every test that I've read has stated or implied that the Suburban is right-sized and that the Excursion is too big.

Keep in mind with 3/4 & 1 ton trucks GVWs are pretty much all the same. That being the case, the largest -- those with heaviest curb weights -- will have lowest payload ratings. This year Dodge and GM join Ford with a 9900 GVW single rear wheel 1-ton. I bet the Ford is the heaviest, and with the lowest payload rating.

Bob

bowke28

actually, the ford has the highest payload, highest towing, and most passenger space in the 3/4 and 1 ton segments. it also has the only fully boxed frame in the segment.

also, the ford diesels are rated the most reliable out of the diesel competitors. even the highly touted cummins is having quality issues now.

landru2

"Just because the customer wants the largest pickup on the planet doesn't mean they're correct."

Lucky we have people that can step in and set the wretched masses straight. ;^)

bowke28

im thankful also for the people to tell the silent majority what to think.

rsholland

different strokes for different folks.

Bob

dustyk

>>>actually, the ford has the highest payload, highest towing, and most passenger space in the 3/4 and 1 ton segments. it also has the only fully boxed frame in the segment. <<<

No, that's incorrect. The RAM has a fully boxed frame on all weight variants.

>>>the ford diesels are rated the most reliable out of the diesel competitors. even the highly touted cummins is having quality issues now.<<<

Come on, now. Are you kidding me? Where and who has rated the Ford diesel more reliable than the Cummins?

Dusty

aggiemph1

I have heard nobody suggest the new 6.0 Liter PowerStroke is reliable, in fact they were having quite a few problems with it upon its introduction. The old 7.3 is highly reliable as far as my experience, just as reliable as the cummins in my opinion. I think they are both good, solid engines.

nvbanker

I do find it interesting how Ford is considered so dumb for having multiple truck lines, platforms and engines - and yet, they are the undisputed Truck king, whether you like them or not. They sell the most. The F-250 has been extremely successful and profitable for the company, some may say genius on their part.

dustyk

Let's return to:

>>>actually, the ford has the highest payload, highest towing...in the 3/4 and 1 ton segments.<<<

Well, it not quite that simple. Upon further investigation the Dodge leads in towing:

Dodge 16,400
Chevrolet 15,900
SuperDuty 13,900

Its hard to figure who leads in payload:

Chevrolet 5543
Dodge 5110
Ford ????

Ford doesn't list payload or GVWR on their website. The maximum Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) is 20,000 on the Superduty series (that's with the V10, by the way). Maximum towing is listed as 13,900. 13,900 from 20,000 is 6100. Somewhere in there is the weight of the vehicle. Whatever that is it sure doesn't look like Ford leads anybody in payload either.

Dusty

nvbanker

I was the first to wonder why when Ford introduced a new truck they continued to sell the old one side by side with the new one for many months, then finally phasing the old one out. Seemed wierd to me. I guess from what I've read, they build both trucks on the same line for a while, until they can get enough parts for the new one going to convert the line over completely to the new model. Seems to work economically, and the public still buys them. Traditionalists like the "value priced" old model, but still a brand new truck. If they're not going to sell it for 20 years, it works great for them.

rsholland

Those figures you are quoting I believe are for dual-rear wheel 1-tons, of which each brand has different max GVWs. I'm curious&#151;and to add a control factor here&#151;I'd like to see the payload rating (which is what I was talking about, not towing but payload), of the single-rear-wheel 1-tons from Ford, Dodge & GM with the 9900 pound GVW.

If they all have the same 9900 pound GVW, then the model with the lightest curb weight will have the highest payload, since payload equals GVW minus curb weight. If Ford makes the heaviest vehicle here (because it's the largest), then it will have the lightest GVW.

Bob

rsholland

I tried to find the the 9900 GVW comparison here at Edmunds, but it looks like not all models are available in that configuration, so I did a HD 3/4 ton comparison.

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessio- - - nid=10OMZCcBcyWmOxvXIGsbR5Dgx4iZNoICppCheWNG2Z3v83ZKvbhF!-1105064- - - 615?basestyleid=100301517&styleid=100275406&styleid=10028- - - 8437&styleid=100274817&refid=&maxvehicles=5&op=3&- amp;- amp;- amp;tab=specs

The F-250 has the lightest payload but best towing. You'll note that the lightest trucks (Chevy & GMC) have the highest payloads, which is what I was saying.

Bob

ANT14

Wow, I've been away for just 2 days for the 1st... Didn't think this topic would have gotten this popular to return to 30+ posts...

"I hadn't heard that. That statement was based on early articles I read about the new f150 that said it was $500-$800 more expensive per model. do you think that ford will be able to maintain that 60% higher trim versions when the heritage model is discontinued? and did they go back and get better prices from their suppliers after getting the numbers back from their initial sales?"

Yes correct, but Ford stated weeks ago they returned to their supplier's, and were able to offset those costs, and make up for it.

"You're right, Ford does have the economy of scale on their side, but at predictably far less margin. It could very well be that Nissan makes as much profit on one Titan as Ford does on four F150s."

Initial investment for the Titan will require a long time to recoupe, over the Ford has had lower development costs because it's something they have specialized over for numerous years.

"I'm aware of the topic of this thread, but I wonder if nobody thinks the Titan is going to make a hit on the Silverado, and why that doesn't seem to come up?"

Industry analysts have stated that the Titan will steal sales away from the Ram and Tundra, rarely a Silverado or F-150 since they have the most loyal consumer base.

"For Ford the situation is even more complicated. They are really making three truck series at this moment: the "new" F150, the "old" F150, and the SuperDuty. Maybe there is some marketing strategy behind this"

Considering the factories they are produced at, it's really no different than building 3 different vehicles altogether, as they really are. For the F-150, selling 80K units is profittable enough to sustain it. So having 3 different ones, selling up to 900K...imagine the profits.

"Where and who has rated the Ford diesel more reliable than the Cummins?"

Independent testing facilities have concluded that the 6.0L Pwerstroke Diesel by Navistar in the F-series is the most reliable. Even Ward's Automotive had awarded them a 10Best engine award. The initial batch of engines were shipped with faulty components, so the issues that arose on them where from Navistars suppliers which they later rectified.

"I was the first to wonder why when Ford introduced a new truck they continued to sell the old one side by side with the new one for many months, then finally phasing the old one out."

There's different factories producing the new F-150. You can't shut all of them, tool up, and ramp up production of the new ones. You would have about 2 months of non-production, and that certainly would be an issue. Therefore, each factories will come online onto the new F-150, a few months after the resent one. One by one, till all start producing the new one.

txoilman

Since the title of this post is titan vs. f150, I'll say simply that the titan will never be more than a niche player in a high volume market because it appeals to the folks who just want something different (quirky in this case) than a conventional truck. As butt-ugly as this thing is new, I can't imagine what appeal it will have a few years down the road. Ugliness is not like fine wine - it does not mellow and improve with age. I think I'll call my broker tomorrow and buy some Ford stock.

aggiemph1

lol

tbeecher

If this guy wastes his money on brokers and can't have a open discussion we don't need to respond to him..

dustyk

>>>Independent testing facilities have concluded that the 6.0L Pwerstroke Diesel by Navistar in the F-series is the most reliable. Even Ward's Automotive had awarded them a 10Best engine award.<<<

Can you give me more information on this, please?

thanks,
Dusty

aggiemph1

You're right of course, but I figured the Nissan salespeople on this board couldn't resist (with all due respect)

txoilman

Just because I call a spade a spade (in this case an ugly truck an ugly truck)?? I fondly remember many beautiful vehicles produced the past 20-30 years by GM, Ford and Chrysler, and have seen pictures of some even before that - the 1949 Cadillac comes to mind. Aside from the usual aspects of reliability, longevity, thoughtful design, and low cost operation that someone should expect from owning a vehicle, an attractive body and 'cockpit' is a major factor in many people's decision to purchase one vehicle over another. Individual 'bells and whistles' are nice, but it is how the Total Package looks and is put together that makes people question their loyalty to one brand or another and/or ultimately can make even a Chevy Fan out of a Ford Lover and vice versa.

If you can't face the facts, go over and hide at the Nissan forum

keanec

Face are facts?? Since when is a perception a fact? Are you egotistical enough to think your perception of ugly is a fact?

You use the word UGLY like it is objective. It isn't. You don't use words like IMO or IMHO you state it like your perception is the only perception. IMHO, and many others - the F150, with it's cockpit sized windows and high flat sides, has no style. It is ugly - not quite butt ugly - but ugly and plain none the less. The Titan, imo, has style and character. It probably just isn't for a big bad oilman from the heart of the USA.

Enough breath wasted on you, go hide in your Ford forums where you can preach the gospel according to the texas oilman.

bowke28

in texas and oklahoma, nissan sold more titans than they expected to, and ford sold less f150s than they expected to for the month of december.

hmmm...

looks like TXOILMAN is a reference to his hairstyle and not his socioeconomic position.

;-)

PF_Flyer

Keep it away from getting too personal please. This is only a message board, and is supposed to be enjoyable.

Believe it or not, there are going to be times that you might see something posted here that a) you don't agree with or, b) might not be correct. The proper response at those times is NOT to go after the person who posted them. Make a counter arguement, disagree with the point, OK. You can even choose to use the undocumented IGNORE feature that's been a part of every message board I've ever been involved with and go on with your life! But let's keep this from turning into something where each side is trying to "prove" something about OPINIONS.

Thanks for your cooperation and participation.

PF Flyer
Host
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bowke28

it was just calling to me....

;-)

keanec

Hand slap accepted! Must still be hungover from New Years eve! :-)and it is causing me to be cranky.

txoilman

bowke28

the apology wasnt to you. it was to the hosts for soiling our topic with a response to you.

just so i stay on topic, has anyone driven BOTH the titan and the ford?