0-30 weight vs 05-30 weight engine oil

hueleglue

I live in PR, hot all year long! is it feasible to use 05-30 vs the recommended 0-30 engine oil?

carboy21

0-30 is good for winter. In hot climates, 10-30 would be ideal.

thecardoc3

First where is PR? What kind of ambient temperature range do you expect? What kind of engine loads are typical for your vehicle? (Towing?, hills?)

Engine oils are tested in Yuma Arizona where it can go over 120f. When a manufacturer selects a viscosity range they take a lot of different factors into consideration. High ambient temperatures do not have a significant impact on the engine oil, but high engine loads do. Cold ambient temperatures are far more important when it comes to start-up requirements.

It's unlikely you can substitute a 0W30, for a 5W30 in North America unless you are very specific about additional approvals for a given product. The typical 0W30 that you are going to find will be the European specification ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 and would be "too thick" for a Toyota. The majority of the 5W30s that you will find in North America are going to meet the majority of Toyota's vehicle line by viscosity, but might not otherwise provide the best protection.

BTW a 0W30 that is ACEA A3/B4 approved would be much thicker than a 10W30, and no that is NOT a misprint.

stever

PR = Puerto Rico.

Why not just use the oil type/weight recommended in the manual? That's all I've ever done and I've lived in AK and NM - there's a 130 degree temp swing there, easy.

carboy21

BTW a 0W30 that is ACEA A3/B4 approved would be much thicker than a 10W30, and no that is NOT a misprint.

Hmmmmmmm ?????

0W - 30 is a thinner oil then 10W - 30.

The "W" stands for winter grade, thus, an engine with a certain operating temperature range has a specific viscosity range requirement also. If you are operating in a very low temp (cold) surroundings, you need a very low viscosity grade, such that you require a 0W-30 than a 10W-30. On the other hand, if you are operating at a "hotter" environment, you require a 10W-30 or higher to maintain sufficient viscosty to lubricate your engine.

carboy21

thecardoc3 said:

First where is PR? What kind of ambient temperature range do you expect? What kind of engine loads are typical for your vehicle? (Towing?, hills?)

Engine oils are tested in Yuma Arizona where it can go over 120f. When a manufacturer selects a viscosity range they take a lot of different factors into consideration. High ambient temperatures do not have a significant impact on the engine oil, but high engine loads do. Cold ambient temperatures are far more important when it comes to start-up requirements.

It's unlikely you can substitute a 0W30, for a 5W30 in North America unless you are very specific about additional approvals for a given product. The typical 0W30 that you are going to find will be the European specification ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 and would be "too thick" for a Toyota. The majority of the 5W30s that you will find in North America are going to meet the majority of Toyota's vehicle line by viscosity, but might not otherwise provide the best protection.

BTW a 0W30 that is ACEA A3/B4 approved would be much thicker than a 10W30, and no that is NOT a misprint.

Re-check your facts

texases

Both oils are 30 weight when warm. Use the recommended oil. PR is not that hot, oils don't care about humidity. 

thecardoc3

So I take it that you think that you can tell how "thick " a given oil is by the SAE viscosity. That's OK, a lot of people haven't really studied this.

An XW30 weight oil that meets the N.A. (North American) standard has to be between 9.3 and 12.5 low shear kinematic (cST) at 100C and simply needs to be greater than 2.9 cP at 150C. By adding the ACEA approval A3/B3, A3/B4 it will have the same low shear kinematic 9.3 to 12.5 cST at 100C but must be greater then 3.5cP at 150C, which is higher than an SAE 40W which has the same greater than 2.9cP as an SAE 30 weight.(N.A.)

The 0W, 5W, and 10W designations are based on cranking and pumping requirements at sub 0 temperatures and are completely separate form the straight weight requirements. That's why GM and Ford approvals make for an engine oil that would meet an SAE 5W30 standard be as thin as if not thinner than a 5W20.

What this means is that some 5W30s are thinner than some 5W20s while some are thicker than 10W40.

carboy21

People in northern USA have harsh winter and when you first crank your engine in the morning, you need a 0W oil and preferably synthetic.

But not so in CA, AZ, TX, FL, PR

thecardoc3

carboy21 said:

People in northern USA have harsh winter and when you first crank your engine in the morning, you need a 0W oil and preferably synthetic. But not so in CA, AZ, TX, FL, PR

What does the word "Synthetic" mean in North America?

carboy21

thecardoc3 said:

carboy21 said:

People in northern USA have harsh winter and when you first crank your engine in the morning, you need a 0W oil and preferably synthetic. But not so in CA, AZ, TX, FL, PR

What does the word "Synthetic" mean in North America?

https://mobiloil.com/en/article/car-maintenance/learn-about-motor-oil-facts/synthetic-oil-vs-conventional-oil

consumerreports.org/cro/news/2015/07/when-should-you-consider-synthetic-oil/index.htm

thecardoc3

That didn't answer the question. What does synthetic mean in NA?

thecardoc3

Here is another way to look at that question. What is the difference between a product that is labeled synthetic in Europe VS one similarly labeled in N.A.?

carboy21

I assume the "synthetic" in USA is a modified dino oil ?
And the one in EU is a engineered artificial oil ?

stever

Aren't all synthetics a modified petro base oil? Mobil One isn't a full synthetic anymore unless you get a specific Mobil One (High Performance iirc). Please don't ask me to define "full" or even "base stock".

Oil is a good example of one of those subjects where the more you know, the less you know. The tribologists don't agree with each other, much less motorheads.

All the more reason to use the recommended oil in your manual, especially during the warranty.

thecardoc3

carboy21 said:

I assume the "synthetic" in USA is a modified dino oil ?

In N.A. a group III, or a group III+ can be labeled a synthetic, and yes that is dino oil pumped out of the ground.

carboy21 said:

And the one in EU is a engineered artificial oil ?

To be labeled as a synthetic in Europe the product must be made from a Group IV (Polyalphaolefin), Group V (Ester) or Group VI (Polyinternalolefin) which are all man made.

Steve has seen this discussion more times than he wants to remember already, the problem is for every one person that has studied this and is beginning to understand it there are tens of thousands who believe they know all about it but have had no formal training.

There is something that I tell shops and techs when I present the engine oil class. When everyone knows how to choose the correct products for the car they are working on, and only buys those they will easily find the correct products on the parts store shelves. Until that time, the oil companies will continue to sell people what ever they will buy. That is something that is reflected by Valvoline's stance of not having heir products getting the GM dexos approval back in 2011 when it became the requirement, but they have gone back on their position and now have approved products. That BTW puts the emphasis on what Steve wrote "All the more reason to use the recommended oil in your manual, especially during the warranty" and that doesn't mean just the SAE viscosity.

stever

"Synthetic lubricants can be manufactured using chemically modified petroleum components rather than whole crude oil, but can also be synthesized from other raw materials." (Wikipedia)

Don't know, but my guess is that most all synthetics on the shelves are based on "crude oil" as their base stock. You crack the crude, and send some of the ethylene or whatever downstream for further refining or manipulation.

thecardoc3

Isn't it nice that some vehicle manufacturers, and their association (ACEA) use specifications and approvals that take the guess work out of the equation?

stever

I'm just glad that I'm out of warranty so I can buy SuperTech at WallyWorld on sale for $10 for 5 quarts.

I do try to buy the right "weight".

carboy21

Car manufacturers recommend oils not only because it benefits the engine but also because it gives higher MPG to pass the required level.
Like very thin oils like 0W- 20 even in hot states when actually that oil is too thin for high tempretures unless it is synthetic.
Most new engines have very tight tolerances so thicker oil will reduce the MPG due to more friction.
I don't bother about warranty. I do oil changes with thinner oils like 0W-20 in PA winters and 5W-30 in summer.

For summer : amazon.com/gp/product/B003FMGSZQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

For winter : http://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-2208-Special-0W-20/dp/B013JMM0BM/ref=pd_sbs_263_22?ie=UTF8&dpID=51XgSEqnHOL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR129,160_&refRID=1NGXET3AY0SX533ZJA45

Those in hot states would do better using 5W-30 all year round.

thecardoc3

The thinner oil requirements isn't just about fuel economy, there is a lot more to it.

carboy21

thecardoc3 said:

The thinner oil requirements isn't just about fuel economy, there is a lot more to it.

Spell it out. Is it the tighter tolerances in the new engines ?

texases

That, and the use of oil for various engine control functions, like variable timing adjustment on camshafts. They require certain viscosities to work correctly.

thecardoc3

texases said:

That, and the use of oil for various engine control functions, like variable timing adjustment on camshafts. They require certain viscosities to work correctly.

Yep... It also includes systems like displacement on demand and variable valve lift. Then you have to account for engine cooling requirements, especially piston cooling. Then you have the usage of low tension piston rings that can actually hydroplane over top of oil that is too thick. There is a lot more but you should have the idea now.

carboy21

I don't care about all the technicalities.
I use 0W-20 in Pennsylvania winter and 5W-30 in summer. Oil changes done in November and June.

thecardoc3

carboy21 said:

I don't care about all the technicalities.

Hmm, it seemed like you did earlier.

carboy21 said:

I use 0W-20 in Pennsylvania winter and 5W-30 in summer. Oil changes done in November and June.

If you believe that works for you, then do what you want to do. But when it comes to the need for someone to actually following the manufacturers recommendations, other consumers should not be following such advice.

BTW I'm based in Pa. and my career has me traveling all over the eastern US. By simply choosing the correct 5W20 I'm good to go whether I'm headed to Maine or Florida. There is no reason to switch to any other grade.