Luxury Performance Sedans

lovemyclk

As is true in the NFL, it can be difficult to stay in 1st-place! Competition brings out the best in winning companies and each in the LPS thread is feverishly extending the virtues of their marques. It is when one strays too far from core competencies that problems arise.

Also, as is true in the NFL, lousy ownership/management will doom the success of a franchise/company. BMW took a calculated risk for a German engineering-centric company with the Bangle designs. Luckily for them, it has worked out. Still working out the kinks with iDrive, but I understand and admire their motives.

The RS4 is a beast, but awfully tight for me. The M3 works better because, as a coupe, the B-pillar is further back on the body and my side-to-side visibility is improved. Can't wait to see the new V8 M3! Guessing it will remain RWD vs. the AWD of the Audi.

WRT Infiniti, they should be proud of their recent efforts. Still need to determine what they want to do with the Q45.

dewey

The rational buyer might see more "value" in the Seiko - more options such as multi-time zone chronograph, etc., where the Rolex simply tells time When the smoke clears, both will show you the time.

I still wear my father's 1965 Seiko 5Actus! Lifetime watches are not a Swiss concept!

As I said previously if a non-luxury marque can manufacture a car that drives like a BMW 3 or 5 series, I would become a non-BMW owner right now!

Luxury in itself does nothing for me!

markcincinnati

What's a Q45?

hpowders

I thought I said that!

tayl0rd

Maybe the 9 of us could be put on a sitcom with Bob Newhart as our therapist because we all definitely need one.


Hey! Speak for yourself, buddy! I'm not crazy. The rest of the world is! :P

tayl0rd

Proclaiming the 2006 GS as a '5 killer" has to be one of the stupidest statements made all year by an auto executive.
Lexus should be embarrassed.

That was almost to be expected. They said the exact same thing when the last generation GS was released which turned out to be a dismal failure in that regard. And it looks like Lexus history is poised to repeat itself, mainly because of the iron-fisted stability system. :sick:

hpowders

At least the folks at Infiniti "get it!"

I always chuckle when I see that Lexus GS supposedly going pretty fast down SF's twisty, treacherous Lombard Street.
Only they don't really show the car going down.

dewey

I thought I said that!

Wow what a small world! So you own a 1965 Seiko 5Actus too!

Hmmm and all this time I thought I was so unique!

hpowders

Nope. Just the part about gladly giving up my BMW if I could find a $28,000 car that handles as well.
Check out post # 5222.
Been there. Done that.

lovemyclk

Believe it is really a Buick

lovemyclk

A rational interpretation of value is a good thing also! I also have an old stainless steel Seiko my dad wore along with his wonderful old Hamilton Bombay given to him when he graduated from George Washington Univ. Engraved to him by his Dad in 1937. Both have sentimental value to me that can't be measured in dollars.

Even if a Honda, for example, built such a car as you describe, I may not want to "defect", as I have developed a certain respect for the brand identity BMW has earned over the years. Certainly would not turn down such a car, as I admire well-engineered cars at all price levels

drtravel

C & D in their January 2006 issue lists the "10 Best Cars". The best small sedan is the BMW 3-Series but in the category we all love not one LPS mentioned in this group made the list! Can you say Chrysler 300? So whether you own an LPS Acura, Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Lexus or MB - it's not one of the 10 Best!! Stop me before I slit my wrists........

hpowders

I hope I am not to late!
I do believe C & D is usually a little off the wall when it comes time for their car of the year candidates.
I think they purposely try to be provocative.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

markcincinnati

I assumed the Infiniti M would be on the list the way C&D seemed to praise the car throughout the year.

:confuse:

hpowders

I have just about given up trying to figure out the auto mags.
A few months ago, the BMW 545 won in every driveability category against the M45 yet the M45 won the comparo.
I view the mags as time-killing entertainment.
For serious points of view, I listen to the folks posting here.

jjacura

Sorry folks don't have time to read and respond..just wanted to get my post in..(The Dr. may be counting) "Good night Mrs Kalabash wherever you are. "

hpowders

Down here they are playing some of the real holiday classics, one of which happens to be Jimmy Durante's great rendition of "Frosty The Snowman."

To keep this post on point:
You would think the Infiniti M would be every car mags'. car of the year with all the adulation showered upon it.

jjacura

hpowders Jimmy Durante huh....ha..you are older than I thought. was tempted to mention something about that famous sign off being way before your time. Gotta go...just came on line to pay a bill due...but it's not a car pmt...got this baby pd for.

Yep...the M received a lot of great press. You'll never run into one (huge unmistakable street-light tail lights) but nevertheless a nice car.

hpowders

Because I am an absolute menace to all the pretty nurses here at the BMW Home For The Aged, they let me sit chained to a computer all day forcing me to type these messages with my nose.

cdnpinhead

A couple of years ago I learned that my present car (Lincoln LS) was going to be cut adrift -- it's not discussed here, but six years ago, we thought it was going to be. Oh well. . . It's good for the forseeable future, but in the next 6-30 months, I'll probably pull the lanyard.

I have three requirements for my lux or "near-lux" car: 1) manual transmission, 2) rear-wheel drive, 3) must carry my bicycle inside (really big back seat, fold-down seatbacks or Avant style).

Then I have a few "nice-to-haves": good long-term reliability (100-200K miles), decent fuel mileage & dealers that have a clue regarding sports sedans & proper service.

The only three (lux or near-lux) vehicles on the planet that meet my requirements are the BMW 3, the BMW 5 and the G35 coupe. Given that, I compromised and added the IS250 (no fold-down seat), the A4 Avant (AWD) & the A3 (front-wheel drive) to my matrix. And, IMHO, the long-term reliability of both the BMW & Audi are suspect.

I tend to avoid bells & whistles, but still like some amenities: sport suspension/wheels/tires, upgraded audio & xenons; Homelink is simple & useful. I appreciate being able to select just what I want (German), though the Infiniti premium package covers most of what I want without too much fluff. I looked at the 330, since the upgraded audio & xenons were standard, but the extra dollars beyond that were wasted on me. I guess I don't crave the extra horsepower & much of the rest I care about even less.

Two that meet all my requirements (BMW 3 & G35 coupe) came within $40 of each other (sticker or invoice), set up the way I want. My present car has taught me that extra size and weight (as in the BMW 5) are of little value.

Hmmm . . . I yap a lot about Asian reliability, but the reality is that I could have a 325 for the same price as a G35 (in country). Since I'm more than willing to do the ED thing, the 325 starts to look even better. Plus which, Electric Red is just about the most attractive (to me) colour in the class. And, finally, Shipo has helped me come to grips with the concept that owning a BMW doesn't necessarily cause one to become a poseur and/or lower life form.

More later, as I review the last 3-5 pages of each of the brochures. Those tables are where the action is, for me -- the standard equipment & option packages take awhile to dissect & compare.

jjacura

Yeah the nose thing....well...straight jackets are out in this part of the country...our nurses strap us ...eh, I can still sit up and take nourishment on occasion tho. Good night Chet.

hpowders

Good night David...

merc1

I agree, but the M's success I think is due in part to it being a awesome car with little or no previous experience in the segment. Its also rwd and has a V8 which I think highlights the whole range.

I agree with your take on the RL.

M

jrock65

The numbers in Germany (for October)

Not sure if this is a repost. I got this from another forum.

October sales in Germany:

A6 : 6376
E-Class: 5615
5 Series: 4621
Opel Signum: 1006
CLS : 710
S-Type : 193
Volvo S60: 150
Lexus GS: 137
Peugeot 607: 128
Saab 9-5 : 35
Alfa 166 : 31

docnukem

Do they even have Acura and Infiniti dealerships in Germany?

jrock65

no

docnukem

That is their loss, then. I was surprised to see the GS in the mix.

(Just trying to keep my 4% stake on this board).

markcincinnati

A6. . . . . .6376
E-Class . .5615
5-Series. .4621

Well, this then is consistent with my friend's comments that Audi is on a tear (even in NA if you read their Y-T-Y comparisons -- to themselves, of course.)

Yet, I still maintain that popularity alone is not an indicator of one car being better than another.

I have visited the Audi factory 6 times, 4 of those with the Audi Car Club of NA and 5 of those times we actually had an English speaking tour of the factory and lunch with "Audi Representatives."

Audi, at each one of these events, clearly views BMW as "the competition." During our visits, the Audi reps dismiss Mercedes from a certain point of view in that Audi seems to want to increase the "P" content in LPS and they feel Mercedes vehicles are not as dynamic as BMW's offerings.

Fundamentally, based on the participation in this forum, this seems to ring true.

Yet, I, for one, am more surprised that Mercedes outsold BMW. My friend told me he believed that the market in order (at this time) was Audi, BMW and Mercedes.

Hmm. . .the North American sales are 1/3 of BMW's -- is it "unintended acceleration," a still lousy dealership reputation or what?

drtravel

..(The Dr. may be counting)

I just found it odd that none of the LPS we all love are considered one of the "10 Bests". My M was sad last night at being left out but I cheered it up this morning by saying that neither of it's neighbors (Acura, Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Lexus and M-B) were invited either. So we are both recuperating just fine - at least I am until my next lease payment is due.

PS Who is Jimmy Durante? Don't remember him from my yuppy childhood.

docnukem

Maybe the echoes of unintended acceleration.

Here in MI, many of the Audi dealerships are in a conglomeration of various brands/badges. The Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, and (usually) the MB dealerships are (in contrast) freestanding by themselves. I wonder if this creates a perceptual/identity problem.

As an aside, how long after the "unintended acceleration" myth did the 4000 and 5000 cars change to the 80, 90, and (I think) 100?

Also (as an aside), as Audi has gone from 4 digits (e.g. 4000) to 2 digits (80 and 90) to 1 digit (4, 6, 8), what comes next?

dewey

PS Who is Jimmy Durante? Don't remember him from my yuppy childhood.

Durante narrated the 1960s holiday TV cartoon Frosty the Snowman.

drtravel

In their December lease factors (residuals and money factors) it seems that BMW is pushing two year leases for many of their vehicles. They raised the residuals on many 24 month leases so that the 24 month lease payment is about the same as the 36 month lease payment. No other residuals were increased so it is doubtful that their resale values actually increased - just another marketing incentive. Also noticed that they are advertising 24 month leases on the BMWUSA web site. Their "December to Remember" deal... oops wrong brand.

They are pushing certain vehicles by offering subsidizing money factors. At the top of their list are the 530xiT Wagon, the X5 3.0i and X5 4.4i - all with .0010 MF. Next up is the 530i and 530xi with a .0014 MF, the 325/330Ci Coupes at .0015 MF and then the 525i and 525xi with a .0016 MF.

Wonder how their lease deals are in Deutschland.

docnukem

I can also picture his face (scnozz and all), but I am having a tough time recalling what movies he starred in. The voice is pretty unmistakable (although Rod Serling holds the title of most recognizable).

Edit: Now I recall one....It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World.

drtravel

Yep...the M received a lot of great press. You'll never run into one (huge unmistakable street-light tail lights) but nevertheless a nice car.

I like the added safety of those big lights... plus the fact that you are looking at my tail lights and not vice versa!

What is a little weird is that I still rarely see another M on the road.

drtravel

Until this forum is a read only. Come on posters, let's step it up - I need something to read for the next 24 hours!

hpowders

Nobody special. Just one of the greatest entertainers of all time...
Don't miss his Frosty The Snowman from your all holiday music, all the time station.
He had a variety show on TV in the early 1960's.
He also did the TV variety show circuit: Dean Martin, etc;

hpowders

Audi sells well in Germany but not in the USA is probably the same reason I see all these Michigan folks out here driving GM vehicles.
"Local Pride."

markcincinnati

That doesn't explain the success, relatively, of all the German and non German brands in the US.

Now, however, if in Germany there were 25% more Audi dealerships that would at least be "a clue." Conversely, if in the US there are "X%" more BMW or Mercedes dealerships than Audi, etc, that too could be telling.

Here in Cincinnati, there are two Audi, BMW and Mercedes dealerships (2 of each to be clear.) The largest BMW in the state is here, he sells 1300 cars annually (BMW+Mini). The ONE Audi store that I frequent sells ONLY Audis and says they sell 600 per year. Of course I don't know how many of the 1300 at the BMW store are minis to make a fair comparison -- and, I don't know what the new vs used (and my Audi dealer says about 50 NEW Audis per month, for all I know the BMW store numbers are New+Used+Mini (new and used) -- I would assume the BMW store sells perhaps 900 BMW's per year, but I could be wrong.)

The Audi dealer I frequent moved about one year ago and their sales, so they claim, have jumped from 30 per month to 50 per month (and they moved out of the Porsche dual dealership at the same time.)

OTOH, it could simply be US customer perceptions of Audis vs BMWs vs Mercedes vs Volkswagens, etc.

Cincinnati (Zinzinnati) is a German town (SMSA is about 1.5+ million -- i.e., a big town or a small city, but hardly a big city.) I hardly ever see a GS, I see lots of BMW's, Acuras and quite a number of A6's (this model and last.) I can't speak to Mercedes success in Cincinnati, but it seems that this is a town that loves BMW's most of all -- although it would appear that in the segment Audi is certainly in the top 5.

garyh1

I have to ask an obvious question but for which I don't have an answer:

How does the pricing of Audi, MB and BMW comparably equipped cars compare in Germany? Could this be part of the explanation?

jjacura

Can't help but think "Jimmy" were he alive today, would have scoffed at LPS cars choosing instead to drive a used Excaliber with an elongated front end to house his Schnozzola.
He would always end his TV variety show with "Its Time to Say Goodnight" but I'll always remember...the infamous..."Inka-Dinka-Doo".

"Adinka-Doo...Adinka-Do...Adinka-Do" to you too!

dewey

Durante the greatest entertainer of all-time??

That would make a great debate! We should set up a Durante Forum and discuss this further. In fact maybe not!

jimbres

Hmm. . .the North American sales are 1/3 of BMW's -- is it "unintended acceleration," a still lousy dealership reputation or what?

I can say on the basis of my spectacularly disastrous ownership experiences (a '78 VW Rabbit & an '80 Audi 5000) that VW/Audi's wretched quality control must have had a great deal to do with how the car-buying public perceives the brand. I was so badly burned by these 2 cars that I couldn't bring myself to buy anything German for over 15 years.

I never believed that Audis were prone to "unintended acceleration - as far as I know, the government never succeeded in replicating this under controlled conditions - but even now - nearly 20 years after I got rid of the 5000 - I still refrain from suggesting to my wife that she test-drive an A6 in her appparently endless search for the perfect LPS.

lexusguy

I know a guy through work with a '04 Audi A8. The entire engine had to be replaced, apparently. Considering Audis are not really any cheaper than BMW anymore, and just about everybody offers AWD these days, I dont see that much of a reason to consider one.

hpowders

I do believe Durante would have been able to offer a more effective "what a revoltin' development THIS is!" than William Bendix as Chester A Riley.

jjacura

"I like the added safety of those big lights... plus the fact that you are looking at my tail lights and not vice versa!"

Thats the only time I would recognize the M. because when it is behind me (Again, a very nice car) but take a long look at that front end and tell me how it stands out from the G35 plus the fact that when it is behind me, it fades to a blur in the rear view mirror too quickly.:P (Just joshing ya..To be honest Dr. my cars rarely break 8 mph over the speed limit as I have placed a high value on driving and consider it a privilege as well as a pleasure.)

armen6

How were they?

drtravel

Just joshing ya..To be honest Dr. my cars rarely break 8 mph over the speed limit

I don't mind being the bangle butt of some jokes... got to keep things lite around here. Sometimes I have actually confused a G35 with a M from the front angled view also (of course my 80/200 vision probably doesn't help). Need to do a double take but then again don't most car companies share a family resemblance. Maybe Infiniti went a little overboard here.

The only time I can actually exceed the speed limit in SoCal is during the 35.6 minutes a week the freeways are not in stop-n-go rush hour traffic. Then if I'm not doing at least 75 MPH some Toyota Corolla will be 3 inches from my large tail lights "gesturing" towards me. For the other 10,044.4 minutes a week when we are going 15-20 MPH I get a perverted joy about being next to someone with a ga zillion horsepower. I wonder what that Corolla driver feels?

drtravel

For November:

E-series 3,884
GS 2,619
M 1,982
STS 1,931
A6 1,625
RL 1,298

Forgot the 5-series number but I'm sure hpowers will be happy to share them!

For the period March-November sales were

5-series 39,214
E 38,770
GS 27,577
STS 26,381
M 21,122
A6 13,834
RL 13,511

qbrozen

5-series sedans for Nov = 4182
+ 307 530xi wagons
+ 696 M5s

so 5185 if you include everything.

jjacura

I liked Bill Bendix in The Babe Ruth Story...1948, but would agree with you about Durante's ability to pull off a heavy line.