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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Good. The only big seller you seem to be lacking is the 5.
    I hear the 2006 models have been programmed for automatic time adjustments for DST and ST.
    I should have waited.
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Posts: 123
    Not true.

    Rear Wheel bias, performance AWD cars can throttle steer just fine. In fact, with ATESSA, an AWD car IS a RWD car above ~25 mph. This discussion kind of reminds me of the late 80's, when ABS was just coming onto the scene. Many performance enthusiasts were convinced it was needlessly complex and an expert driver could modulate brakes just as well as ABS. That is, until Car and Driver and others ran a series of race results showing the results of ABS equipped cars versus non-ABS cars. Now, every car has ABS.

    Again, people knocking AWD have never had a performance AWD equipped car.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
    I don't recall knocking it per se myself. I do recall stating preference for RWD though.

    You tell me, sdiver: I've done a little time pushing an S4 Avant around fairly hard; was I experiencing performance AWD? My reading tells me "yes", but a Porsche AWD has never been under my butt. If that's performance AWD, I liked it. I still would rather have the power going just to the rear, but I did like it; enough to be looking at owning it come May. OTOH, if I could find a compact RWD wagon, that's what I'd take.

    Maybe I'm stubborn...
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I just read the first test of the Zephyr, where Edmunds literally gushed over the car, with the kind of sentiment normally reserved for cars like the 3 series. They talk about the Ford Duratec like its one of the worlds greatest engines, and yet have complained about the exact same engine in other Ford's for its general crudeness. They then go on to talk about the "agressive" pricing at around $36K loaded. Agressive vs. who?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251

    I do not disagree with your post!

    MB is renowned for its ride/luxury. And I may am very impressed with the MB3320CDI(I have a weakness for torquey diesels).

    But I think MB during the Juergen Schremp reign was a disaster!

    Cost cutting with lower quality in the luxry market is a death knell. And I first noticed this during 1998 when I sat in a ML320!

    I just hope Zetsche will focus on the important things that made MB great and will continue making MB great!

    What great things? MB's heritage is not only based on ride and luxury. But also quality, durability and reliability!

    I have family members with new Benzes and they are a far cry from those three qualities that I mentioned above. In fact those three qualities are intact in my wife's 83 MB300D.

    Hopefully the new CEO Zetsche will redeem MB from Schremp's blunders!
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Posts: 123
    Again, wale, a RWD preference is not my point, everyone is entitled to their informed opinion of course. It's the people knocking all AWD systems as FWD disguised or as something that does not belong on performance cars that are spreading provably false information. I thought the 959 removed all doubt in '86.... :confuse:
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    That small $54K super wagon ain’t enough evidence? Yep, take a liking for 911 Turbo. That should trip the family circuit breakers! Drive that baby and you’ll forget about this AWD/RWD nitpicking but quick.

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The nice thing about the AWD turbo is its actually drivable by regular people. The GT2 is a nightmare that is definitely for experts only.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Where I live is actually a good case study really because on one road (Ogden Ave.) we have Lexus, Audi, BMW and Mercedes all right next to each other.

    Naperville/Aurora or Downers Grove/Westmont area?

    I think the 5-Series is close to the E in sales because it is somewhat newer and with the 525i it starts out cheaper than the E-Class. Even with all those models (M5 included) the E still has it beat in variants.

  • I happen to be one of those people who support the M as I happen to own one and is very satisfied. I wouldn't call the interior of the 5 god-aweful ugly, but I didn't particularly care for it. That was the main reason I chose the M over the 5. And I don't stick that in the face of every BMW buyer. But this comment by you is a bit condescending and disingenuous:

    M owners, try to enjoy your car without trying to make people who buy something else feel like they made a bad choice -- that's not the best way to feel good about something.

    when comments like this are being made by BMW owners:

    Can the taillights of the Infiniti M be any more obnoxious? Reason enough not to buy!

    It goes both ways.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Well you can always civilize the GT2. Just throw 210 lbs on the front end. You get the manlier RWD, the manlier badge, still have more power than a rank-and-file 911 Turbo, and come out looking like an expert. Shhhh, I won’t tell.

    I guess you can also get a Z06 and save 120 grand, AND it’s made in the US.

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    First I found it kind of silly that some forum members would put so much emphasis on Consumers' Reports stats as a way to justify spending premium prices on LPS.

    But this sales stats bashing makes the Consumers Report followers look rational.

    The following logic or should I say illogic:

    Well October sales of my model was more than your model, therefore my model is better than yours!

    If you dont get any pleasure out of driving your car, well then I guess you may at least get some pleasure with the above statement. ;)
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    I happen to be one of those people who support the M as I happen to own one and is very satisfied. I wouldn't call the interior of the 5 god-aweful ugly, but I didn't particularly care for it. That was the main reason I chose the M over the 5.

    Remember that there is now an M5, so you'll have to be more specific. :P

    But this comment by you is a bit condescending and disingenuous:
    M owners, try to enjoy your car without trying to make people who buy something else feel like they made a bad choice -- that's not the best way to feel good about something.

    Every M owner I've ever met just absolutely loves driving their car. They've never made any comments about anyone else buying anything different.... They are just flat-out car lovers and enthusiasts.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    "Every M owner I've ever met just absolutely loves driving their car."

    Remember that there is now an M5, so you'll have to be more specific.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
    Understood. You sidestepped the S4 question, BTW. ;) However, I think some critics have a valid point about the disguising of FWD. Haldex seems a good case in point. A3 3.2Q is on the short list too (because smaller is better, says I), and even with Haldex, it's basically a FWDer with a rear support system for front wheelspin situations. I'd prefer things completely the other way round.
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    Yup, every M and M5 owner I've ever met just absolutely loves driving their car.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    So a A3 quattro should not really be called a quattro since its system does not resemble the awd of its Audi siblings.
  • Dewey -- I need to take a page out of your book of "how to be succinct."

    Consumer Reports does give facts, but I find little compelling in them in terms of the subjects that we discuss here which are rarely factual.

    The monthly sales figures, however, I do find at least "nice to know," but again they do not cause any particular course of action nor do they change or influence any of us, or better said, probably have very little influence upon any of us.

    It is a free forum, mostly -- so post the CR stuff all you want. I find it as useful as if the time of day was posted in the body a post. But I can page through that.

    Sales only give a part of the story. For example, then I'll shut up for a while, Audi came is dead last in sales again this month on this list. But for Audi and Audi of America October 2005 was one of their best months EVER; and, year over year numbers, etc, were "smokin'."

    Perspective is lacking in the numbers -- but I certainly hope they continue to be posted.

    Emotion and subjective ratings are not CR's forte, so repeating their reliability ratings from my perspective would be like marrying someone who's mother died at age 100, as if that would be an indicator of your spouse's potential longevity.

    I loved your October sales of mine prove mine is better than yours, too. You cracked me up.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The TT uses a haldex system as well, rather than the usual Audi torsen system. Still, to 99% of people AWD is AWD, and Audi can call it whatever they want. The Quattro name has 25 years of history behind it, some new name just for the haldex cars would have no history. Not really a smart business decision.
  • drtraveldrtravel Posts: 395
    March thru October 2005 Sales:

    5 = 34,029
    M = 19,151

    Dropped my M off for it's 7.5K service and spoke with the owner. He told me that the 35-40% of his M sales have been the V8 (M45 and M45 Sport) and that was typical of Southern California dealers - their largest market. Now this is a guestimate but that would lead me to believe that probably a third of all Ms sold countrywide may be the V8 variety or approximately 6,380 sold. During this same period BMW sold 5,690 5-series V8 (545, 550, M5). I just wish I could find the actual sales figures for the M45 to stir up the pot a little. I do know that a few months ago when I was tracking M inventories over 40% of their cars in inventory were M45s, so the owners numbers seem legit. Does Infiniti sell more V8s than BMW?
  • I realized after I posted my previous message that it may have offended M owners -- and for that I apologize.

    All I am trying to do is distinguish between praising or denigrating a car VS. praising or denigrating a car's owners or supporters (i.e., human beings)!

    It is OK to say "I can't stand the M interior" or "I hate the way the 5 looks".

    It is offensive and ridiculous to say "I can't imagine why anybody would like the interior of the 5" or "I think people who buy the M are doing so because they cannot afford the 5".

    But then again, we are all susceptible to the frailties of being only human :-)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Well TGFT! Otherwise this thread would be so boring instead of one of the most dynamic and interesting on Edmunds.
  • I can't figure out why anybody would buy one of these LPS cars with an automatic transmission or without AWD.

    -- signed: "Often Wrong, Never Uncertain"

    And here I sits, with an auto trans, but at least AWD.

    Few posters here, apparently, with BMW 5xi's and probably fewer too that have 5xi's with the row your own transmission.

    Buyer's remorse? Well. . .maybe just a little. But, truth be told, I have been able to test drive the 530xi automatic (Step-lag-tronic) and the transmission, at least, is about the same as my A6 3.2 automatic (Tip-lag-tronic).

    When I drove the 530xi automatic, I came away thinking, "nice car," but not enough to make me switch from the Audi (this time.) The dilemma, of course, is with 31 months to go on my Audi lease, I wouldn't be in the market for about 26 months and the local BMW dealer says he will only customer order the 5xis with automatics -- none will be available for "stock" therefore no stick test drives. My luck, too, BMW will cave in just like Audi and Mercedes and basically withdraw the manual from the US market. :cry:

    I drive my wife's 2005 3.0 X3 manual whenever possible and "I can't imagine why anyone would get one of these machines with the automatic."

    I am in a minority probably a single digit minority.

    Why bother getting one without a stick -- unless like me, you have no choice.

    If anyone is offended by most of the comments made by most of us here, I would suggest taking a deep breath. A lot of us agree on a lot of things, a lot of us disagree on many things too.

    We all know that there is very little objective going on here -- but the dialog is engaging and almost always entertaining.

    Now go out and get a sport suspension equipped, AWD, manual transmission LPS car and apologize to the rest of us.

    Sarcasm is so hard in these blogs: :shades:
  • I have an Audi 2.7T [6-spd. man.] and while I know that a 540 handles better, I am so pleased to not see another A6 on the road every time I go driving. Call me an elitist, but the last thing I want is to drive up in a car that is as common as Corollas or Civics.

    Here in Houston, BMW's are the "Chevrolets" of this decade. They are everywhere. This in spite of the hideous "bangled" design. Yes, I know . . . forgive me, as I'm stepping on toes here, going out on a judgement "limb" but, as I have an advanced degree in design, I think I'm entitled :O)
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    Well, I would say that if 40% of the M inventory is V8's then they definitely sell more V8's than BMW. Only about 16% of 5 series buyers buy 545/550s and a tiny percent buy M5's. I guess I'm not sure what the point of the question is though. I can say though that around where I live I see a lot more M35x's than M45's. I am surprised that Infiniti makes and sells so many V8's. I would think most buyers in this market would want V6's, but I guess I'm wrong.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The dealer may choose not to have 530xi MTs in inventory because of low general demand, but I dont think BMW will take them away from the US market. Remember, BMW is the company that caved to the US market and is offering a MT in the M5. Europe doesnt get one. I think BMW customers are the people most likely to want a MT in their cars.
  • I generally agree with this, but I also wonder, in part, if this just isn't wishful thinking on "our" part.

    True, the S4 (alone) Audi does still offer the MT, but a quick look at the inventory here at the Cincinnati dealers will find few manual transmissions. OK, OK, there are one or two TT's that have the manuals -- but TT sales are in the basement, and will remain so until the new body style, I would imagine.

    Does the A6 3.2 quattro come with a stick (option) in Europe? Anyone? Anyone?

    Is the lack of manuals in luxury PERFORMANCE cars due to the customers or has this just been forced upon us by a generation or two of auto only youngsters?

    I took my allroad 6spd manual to the car wash and the kid couldn't pull it into the wash bay -- the smell of cooking clutch filled the air, until I personally rescued this young man.

    As nicely as possible I questioned his manhood. I am a bad person. I know. :(
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    One other thing I'd add is that the M is cheaper than the 5, and that would come into play here as well. Let's leave the M5 out of the discussion because it's way more expensive than the M, but if you liked the 5 and M roughly equally, and you could get the M with a V8 for the same price as the 530 wouldn't you go with the V8 equipped car? I know not everyone would, but I sure would. No offense to anyone that does like it, but I don't happen to like the M as much as the 5 so what I'm saying wouldn't apply to me. But there are a lot of people that seem torn with the decision between the two.
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    Rich....I was trying to follow your preference because you stated you would go for the V-8 in the M if it was priced the same as the 530 ...and then stated but you personally don't like the M so it wouldn't apply to you and it almost sounded like you were a used car guy pitching a theory you really don't believe in. :confuse: you really do like BMW best ....Don't you?? ;)
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    No, I said if you liked the cars roughly the same it would make sense to choose the car with the V8 if it cost the sameas a V6 equipped car. At least, I think that's what I said. It's what I meant. Oh, you can be rest assured, I like BMW best (but I must admit that Audi is creeping into the mix!).
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