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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    Holy Cow! Did you all just feel the Earth move a little? Did Hpowders just slightly back off on some BMW 545 hyperbole? :D

    Yankin' your chain again... ;)

    (I at least expected a, "But those German engineering Jedi-Masters of the Blue and White Propellor order are able to get these outstanding numbers in an awe-inspiring V8!")

    Actually, the Earth moved twice today. In the Luxury Marques forum, Merc1 had something slightly-better-than-neutral to say about the upcoming 2007 LS styling!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    No. Wishful thinking. I am as stubborn in my point of view as Merc1 except that I am about 88% less articulate.

    The new LS must be quite a looker for Merc1 to say something positive.
    I can hardly wait to see one.
    I sort of like the look of the new GS-almost got one.
    Saw 3 recently after not seeing any for about 6 months.

    By the way folks, next time at the PO, ask for the "1950's sporty cars" stamps.
    Quite a nice trip down memory lane for some of us.

    The 1952 Nash Healey with the top down. Sigh....
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,075
    I call those statistics an absolutely virtuoso performance for a V-8 and really shows the incredible genius of the engineers at BMW.

    i don't intend to start up a debate or anything about this, because that's pretty good numbers for the size and output in the 545 ... but not really "incredible genius," as my '03 Lincoln LS V8 consistently returns ~22 mpg in mixed, and often spirited, driving. I just can't call the guys at Ford "geniuses." ;)

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • drtraveldrtravel Posts: 395
    Here's a summary of the major auto magazines comparison tests

    Car & Driver (May 2005)
    1. M45 Sport
    2. RL
    3. GS 430
    4. E350
    5. A6 4.2
    6. 530i
    7. STS V-8
    8. S-Type 4.2

    Motor Trend (March 2005)
    1. M35
    2. RL
    3. 530i Sport
    4. A6 3.2
    5. STS V-6
    6. S-Type 3.0

    Motor Trend (November 2005)
    1. 545i
    2. M45 Sport
    3. E500
    4. STS V-8

    Road & Track (July 2005)
    1. M45 Sport
    2. 545i
    3. GS 430

    Just trying to stir up the pot.
  • drtraveldrtravel Posts: 395
    Consumer Reports
    1. M35x
    2. A6 3.2
    3. STS V-6
    4. RL
    5. GS 300 AWD
    Placed the E320 and 530i between the M35 and A6

    1. RL
    2. A6 3.2
    3. M35x
    4. 530xi
    5. GS 300 AWD

    Speed Magazine
    1. 300C SRT-8
    2. CTS
    3. 545i 6MT
    4. GS 430
    5. A6 4.2
    6. M45 Sport

    Automobile Magazine
    1. A6 4.2
    2. GS 430
    3. E500
    Also included 545i, M45, RL, STS and S-Type (not sure about their order)
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Well, gas mileage is one of those things where its hard to reach generalizations with anecdotal evidence. Even with the exact same car model, people have reported pretty different real world mileages. Most likely the differences are due to terrain, atmosphere conditions, kind of fuel, driving style, and differences in car condition.

    The CR data is anecdotal as well, but it was probably done on similar courses and with similar driving styles. In any case, I really doubt that the real world mpg difference between a 550i (19 mpg) and an M45 is more than 1 mpg (18 mpg).

    At 15,000 miles per year and $3.00 per gallon, that's a difference of $130 per year.

    I really don't think anyone shopping in this class is going to quibble about that, especially when the difference between a comparably equipped M45 and 550i is $9000 to $10,000.

    Even though the 550i makes more power, it has a mpg advantage because it weighs less and has an extra gear.

    The M45 could use some weight loss and a 6 speed auto.
  • I was a newbie to both Infiniti and BMW, and test-drove and extensively evaluated both the M35x and the 530xi. To me the choice was pretty clear at the end -- the BMW 530xi won hands down for lots of reasons, including the manual transmission availability, the way it drives, the looks, the fuel efficiency, etc.

    Also, the new iDrive in the 2006 5's is much easier to use and you get used to it very quickly (like most new technologies).
  • jo2jo2 Posts: 41
    Hello Everyone,

    Thanks to all the fantastic comments. The overwhelming consensus as I can tell seems to be for the M45 - and for me I am assuming that translates to the M35 as well.

    I will drive both back to back on the same day and make my decision. FYI - I am now leaning towards the M35. I like the M45 but gas mileage is such an issue right now, especially since my wife drives an X5 which costs 78 dollars to fill every time we hit the gas station.

    Thanks again!

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Some of those comparison tests between the BMW5 and Infiniti M are BOGUS!


    1)C&D----- a M45 against a 530i. Is that a fair comparison when a 545i would have been appropriate?

    2)Did not the MT comparison include the 530i with the dated 225HP 3.0l engine? Such a comparison is quite useless since a updated 3.0l was introduced within a month of that test! Why use the outdated engine?
  • I STRONGLY support both turnbowm and hpowders on their positive take on iDrive. Most people who blast iDrive have either never really used it themselves or have an older version. It is just NOT a problem or issue any more.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    1) Some comparos do comparisons based on engine, some comparos do comparisons based on price (hence M45 v. 530i, and Edmunds Sonata V6 vs. Accord I4 and Camry I4). I personally like to see comparos based on engine, but I wouldn't say that comparos based on price points are necessarily unfair, because most consumers do car shopping based on price.

    2) These comparos are always done months before issue, meaning that the 255hp version would not have been available to the magazine for a while. "Waiting" for something new from a specific manufacturer could be a never-ending game, since different cars are constantly getting updates at different times.
  • jo2, I did not see an overwhelming consensus in the responses, but you need to drive each of these cars yourself to decide.

    For the record, I was a first-time LPS buyer a few months ago when I was comparing the M35x to the 530xi. I was not prejudiced against one or the other, if anything I have always been biased towards favoring Japanese brands for value and reliability.

    FOR ME (emphasis to avoid implying that everyone should agree with me), the BMW 530xi won hands down over the M35x for the following reasons:

    1. Manual transmission available on the 530xi.

    2. External looks that make my heart race every time I walk up to the car. The M looks too round and bulky from the side, too tall and narrow from the back, and I can't stand the gaping fish-mouth in the front. All my friends who see the car salivate over it. All personal opinions, of course.

    3. Fuel efficiency that kicks butt over the M35x. After three months and 4000 miles on the 530xi, I consistently get just over 30 mpg in sixth gear on the highway. I just did a one-day 425 mile round-trip to NY from Boston and was able to do it all on one tank of gas, averaging approx. 28 MPG (computer and manually calculated). I know that people who buy LPSes don't always care about fuel efficiency, but I do and it was an important factor for me.

    4. Handling and driveability that I guess BMW is well-known for.

    5. Simple spartan interior. I did not love the BMW interior as much as I hated the look of the cluttered, over-bearing, claustrophobic M35x interior -- what's the deal with the console canted towards the ceiling anyway? Just like my buddy's Nissan Quest -- and he hates that too!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    In the R & T comparo, they admitted that for performance, the 545 came in first.
    They downgraded the 545 on subjective elements like exterior and interior styling.
    And that's how the M45 won.
    Very scientific.

    At least Motor Trend got it right.
  • Right on!

    I never for one second considered any industry or magazine reviews when choosing the 530xi over the M35x. What some independent reviewer thinks, and whether the car does 0-60 in 5 or 7 seconds is totally irrelevant to me.

    I agree with an earlier post that said that the greatest value of a review is that it makes people who chose the winning car feel that they made the right choice. Who doesn't like external validation for a choice they made?
  • Right on again, hpowders! You're on a roll today!

    How anyone can believe a ranking that relies on total strangers to evaluate looks and styling is alien to me!

    I am willing to bet $1000 that if you put an M35x and a 530xi side-by-side and had a random set of 1000 people evaluate looks and styling, the 530xi would win hands down! Just my personal, non-scientific opinion of course!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The brake lights on the M are utterly tasteless IMNSHO.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Thank you again freddybb for lending a much needed dose of sanity to these proceedings.
    The M is a nice car but to say it drives like the 5 series?
    I've driven both and the only thing the M beats the E60 in is the brakes, IMNSHO.
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    That may be true if they are on the outside looking in (and I do like the look of the 5), but IMHO, put those same 1000 people on the inside and (in addition to getting in the Guiness Book of W.R.) the opposite would be true. While some may not like the cant of the center console, the materials, look, space, and comfort of the M are (again, IMHO) superior.

    (And if you put the money saved in their pockets, you could flip a few on the exterior styling, too) :)
  • drtraveldrtravel Posts: 395
    1. Manual transmission available on the 530xi.

    Interesting that you put this first. An earlier post of yours said the lack of a manny was a deal breaker. At least you based your decision on a fact plus the MPG. The other 3 points, well it looks like hpowders has a soul mate.

    Happy motoring
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Huh? What about dewey and rich545?

    We shall not stand alone against this rising insurgency!

    Lonely are the brave! ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Overwhelming? :confuse:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The proof is in the sales figures which correlate with our point of view. Not yours.
    Fact: A lot more folks are buying/leasing the E60 than the M.

    There's a great new DVD out on all the BMW models from design to manufacturing to testing at the track to future designs with quite a few comments by the great Chris Bangle.
    I suggest you stop in to your nearest BMW dealer and pick one up, assuming you are wearing proper attire. ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Obviously Infiniti's advertising slogan for the M has nothing to do with sales figures.
    What were those October figures?
    5 series: 4880
    M: 2231
    Oh well. Only 119% better for the 5 series.

  • sdiver68sdiver68 Posts: 123
    Warning - The M35 does not get much better mileage in the real world than the M45. The difference is 1-2mpg. Check out the M forum, or real worl MPG forum, or the FX forum wher the FX45 and FX35 get nearly identical MPG..overall. So don't think you are saving gas by cheating yourself out of the V8.

    Nothing like a little dose of reality to get the BMW apologists stirring, huh? Anyone dares to suggest another car may be the equal or better and the screams can be heard for miles. Here they come with their sales figures and new engines to compete with Infiniti.

    And I don't know how old the Infiniti styling haters are, but my generation brought the Japanese car into the mainstream....we appreciate the styling cues of Asia as well as Europe.
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Posts: 123
    M - 2231 conquest sales after 6 months.
    BMW - Early, quiet release of 4.8L engine.

    Infiniti and any other car maker would be thrilled with those sales in this segment for a brand new car with zero nameplate recognition. Heck, Porsche's Cayenne just recently started to build some sales momentum and it has been out how long?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    So if the M is equal or better than the 5 series, why did the 5 beat the M in sales last month by 119%?
    Can you explain that?
    Can ya?
    Can ya?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The Infiniti has zero name plate recognition? After all the trumpets blasting proclaiming the G35 as superior to the 3 series for the last several years?

    Infiniti is a very well-established brand.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371

    It's all about the sales numbers. The fact that the 5 outsold the M by 119% is incontrovertible proof that it is 119% better.

    Just like it's irrefutable that the FX is better than the X5 because it outsells it and the G35 Coupe is better than the 3 series 2 door because it outsells it.

    But with 3 sedan vs. the G sedan, the 3 sedan is about a 250% better car.

  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    And I think the 525 outsells the 545 by a wide margin. It must be better. ;)
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,054
    drive the car they do because they like it, not because someone else does.

    Worse yet, some people drive the car they do because they want to be still driving it in 5 (or 8) years. Imagine!!

    And, to top it off, some people want to pick up the car when it's paid for and never see the dealership again.

    Go figure.
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