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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Sheep. The E60 is being bought by sheep that have never even heard of the car magazines. They are not enthusiasts. They have no eye for design; no sense for ergonomics and know nothing of human user interfaces

    Who are you to tell other people what they like? Are you really that condescending? Just because you don't like something, that doesn't mean that other people are "wrong" or not as good as you (because they aren't as much of an enthusiast as you). How pretentious.... yuck.
  • drtraveldrtravel Posts: 395
    Yes, I have a PhD in Automotive Sociology, I teach graduate courses at Harvard on the Global Social Effects of Banglization, and am a Nobel Prize Laureate in BMW Buying.

    Great answer...LOL. I was afraid you were going to tell us that your are a priest at a Banglican Church and consider anyone with any negative feelings towards BMW a heretic and subject to a jihad.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    When you answer the sheepman, you are playing right into him
    As I said, they are strictly "hit and run."
    They don't have the courage or the intellect to stick around and debate.
    I knew we wouldn't hear from him again.
    He fits the pattern.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    All your rather crude attempts at satire can't change reality.
    When you wake up to face the new day, the Bangle 5 series is one of the greatest automotive success stories of the past 2 years. You cannot dispute this; hence the desperate and rather unsuccessful attempt at "humor."

    The E39 already had incredible handling, but was boring and uninspiring to look at.
    The 3's and 5's pretty much looked the same.

    I wrote to BMW back in 2002, that it would be nice if they could come up with a 5 series design which is more distinctive than the 3. A lot of times I mistook the 5 for the 3. I got a form letter "thank you" in return, but I would like to think my input times probably hundreds of others distressed by the boring and tired E39 had some effect on the re-styling. Maybe. Maybe not.

    Anyhow, thank you, BMW for listening and hiring the right man for the job, the incomparable Chris Bangle.

    For he shall reign forever and ever.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    That is one helluva of an endorsement for VW/Audi.

    AUDI/VW the safest cars in the industry!

    Safety is among the top concerns for many buyers.

    I hope Audi marketing will try to outdo Volvo with the "safety message". VW/Audi will be able to back up their safety message with a third party endorsement from the Insurance Institute!

    The next VW/Audi ads should show real surviving accident survivors standing beside their crushed Audis and Volkswagens ! That may be called "maninpulative fear marketing" but I would call it "effective marketing"!

    Here is my question to the CR reliability preachers who inhabit this forum:

    Would you forgo a bit of reliability for the sake of safety?

    I know I would!!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Good. Now somebody out there may actually decide to purchase one of their vehicles.
    Nobody I know.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Good. Now somebody out there may actually decide to purchase one of their vehicles.
    Nobody I know.

    That is because you are a daredevil by nature who only knows fellow Evel Knievels that attend Bangle fan clubs! ;)
  • There have been at least a half dozen posters in recent days who were obviously replying to another post, but they hadn't used the "reply" button. Anyone seeking the context of the original posting to make sense of the response, then must search through to find the original posting. It would be very helpful if everyone used the "reply" button. Thanks.
  • . . .will never agree on certain things. These blogs are certainly proof of that.

    My thoughts remain, these cars remain (and continue to become) more alike as each MY passes. If you love the Bangle look or the Trout Mouth look or the "Art and Science" look you might remain in denial of this.

    But these cars offer content and performance that continues to move "towards the [same] sun." Some got there two years ago, some last year, some two years from now. . .then they will, once again, "reload" and we can debate and debate and hopefully have civilized arguments until we fill all of cyberspace.

    Even if you don't care for Audis for whatever reason (and it will almost assuredly be subjective), you gotta at least appreciate their marketing:

    Have You Got It? Clicky Here (four minutes long)

    Well if that doesn't work here is the RAW URL:
  • designman,

    As a BIG fan of my new 2006 530xi (my first BMW) and a supporter of hpowders' wild and fanatical praise for a car we both love -- I can look you SQUARE in your Internet-accessible eye and tell you that I ABSOLUTELY bought the 5-series because of its feline, aggressive and incredible looks!! I also liked it because of Manual Transmission and outstanding fuel economy (that's why I went with the 530 and not the 545).

    So there you have it -- I am not hpowders but I ABSOLUTELY share and commend his enthusiasm for a fantastic car. That does NOT mean that others who choose other cars are wrong -- it just means that we love what we paid for and drive.

    NOT ONE day passes without someone or the other praising the way the 530xi looks.

    And now the ultimate vindication -- M sales drop while 5 series continue to rise. I don't follow that as closely as others on this forum do, but there you have it...
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    A-h-h yes, congrats Freddy m’ man! Enjoy it in good health. So you like the jellicle BMWs aye? As you know, I prefer the pollicle versions. Perhaps some day there will be solidarity amongst us bimmerphiles regarding styling. At least there is one thing we all agree on. When it comes to handling BMWs rule! So do the engines and drivetrains!

    BTW, if hpowders keeps up that manner of Bangle worship, I think we will have to wheel him away in a straightjacket and muzzle. Either that or send him to Guyana with a bucket of Kool-Aid personally laced by Bangle himself.

  • Whenever I travel, I get the cheapest rental car available at the airport. The thought that anyone may be looking down at me because I am driving a Ford Focus just never enters my mind.

    When I rent a car, I also don't worry about what someone else might think. However, I won't rent the cheapest rental car available since many of these are small cars which I don't consider to be safe. Those of us who drive the cars discussed on this board sometimes take safety for granted, since these cars are among the safest around. However, many cars, especially small cars, just aren't that safe.
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    How do you know he is not already in a straitjacket and hunting/pecking the keys with his nose? Maybe the attendants let him peek in his garage every once in a while for his Bangle fix.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Thank you Freddybb for your kind words.
    It has been getting lonely at the top.
    There is always room for one more.

    Merc1 is holding off the marauders on the High End Luxury Marques thread and I am fighting furiously in my never-ending crusade to promote truth, justice and the Bangleized way.

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    As soon as you praise the E60, freddybb, here comes the same feeble, desperate attempts at derogatory humor-reference to the horrible Jim Jones tragedy as if it were some kind of joke-which really shows how insensitive these people are.

    When people can't face the truth that the E60 is one of the few positive stories in the automotive industry, they attempt to shout us down with insulting derogatory humor.

    Very little class on this thread, that's for sure.

    If one of their cars was a success story, I would say congratulations and move on.
    I guess it's not easy dealing with sales failures like the M35/45, Audi 6, Lexus GS, etc;

    Unlike you folks, I show you compassion. I can embrace the losers.
    Brothers: I can feel your pain.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    You make a good point about renting small cars, but when I travel, I only use the car for no more than about 100 miles or so of driving. Usually for a weekend.
    If I were renting for a week, I could see moving up to a larger vehicle.
  • You make a good point about renting small cars, but when I travel, I only use the car for no more than about 100 miles or so of driving. Usually for a weekend. If I were renting for a week, I could see moving up to a larger vehicle.

    I don't want to stay off topic too long, but one of the more common types of accidents is rear-enders and small cars rank among the bottom in being safe in this type of accident. Short trips around town put you most at risk for this type of accident in my opinion.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I will be upgrading next trip!
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    NebrGuy... When we travel I try to get a full sized car and if you plan early enough you can usually get deals. I drove a Grand Prix the last time we were in Phoenix and because we drove up to Sante Fe and back it made for a comfortable enough trip. My brother-in-law goes 260 and I can't imagine trying to watch him relax in a compact car.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Call me wild and fanatical...
    Call me internet accessible too!

    Pardon me for inserting my own lyrics but I am riding such a high knowing that I chose the truly outstanding LPS on this thread.

    The people have voted and freddybb and I have chosen the winner.
    But I will not gloat.
    I will show compassion to my less fortunate posters who had the bad luck to choose the M35/45, A6 and GS.
    Why aren't people buying these vehicles if they are so terrific?
    The E60 is absolutely creaming all of the above in sales.
    The E60 is up 43% in sales from November 2004 to November 2005.
    Please answer instead of calling me names and attempting cruel jokes involving devastating tragedies.

    Oh yeah, designman: I'm sure you can somehow put me into a 9/11/2001 joke.
    That's about your level of humor.
    Shame on you!
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We ALL need to back off the inflammatory comments, okay? It's fine to have some fun, but some of you folks are beyond the pale here. The insults need to stop.

    And while I'm here, let me echo nebraskaguy's recent request that folks use the Reply button. Or if you must be stubborn and not do so, at least identify the post/poster to whom you are responding. A lot of these posts recently have not made a bit of sense because no one can figure out the context.

    Thanks for your cooperation.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    This is what I have been saying.
    Criticize what I am saying about the E60 with some good, hard facts.

    But when designman and docnukem tell me to take some Jim Jones poisoned kool aid or that I am somehow crazy wearing a straight jacket pecking away at the keyboard with my nose, you bring this thread way, way down.
    Debate me over the E60 and if you can't, then don't say anything.
    I can go on plugging away about the E60 for a long, long time and I intend to.

    And finally, I must apologize to all my loyal readers out there anticipating a good, healthy, honest debate.
    I know I have kept my part of the bargain.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    OK. I thought maybe you and I went far enough back in these threads and were friendly enough to engage in banter, understand each other's humor. In any event, it is not my policy to offend. So if I have offended you I feel bad and apologize.

    Norton… woo woo.

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    let's get back on topic, thanks.
  • A rather callous over-generalization, don't you think? BMW e60's not purchased by enthusiasts? You're kidding or flaming... or both.

    And you drive a what...?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Thank you.
    Typing with ones's nose hasn't been easy.
    It's a miracle I've come this far.

    In case you haven't been able to tell, I do favor the E60, but I have driven all cars discussed on this thread, save the A6 and RL, and they are all fine vehicles.
    I didn't drive the RL because I didn't like the idea of a nav. system being shoved down my throat.
    I never got around to the Audi because I was running out of time and had to make a
    decision really fast.
    It really came down to the Infiniti vs the BMW.
    I drove the Infiniti 4 times and each time I just didn't feel right about it.
    The car felt really heavy.
    The Infiniti's brakes beat the BMW's, however. Those are some of the best brakes on any vehicle that's out there. That car will stop on a dime.
    Each time I drove the E60, it was like plunging into a nice warm spa.
    The driveability was just about perfect.
    If one doesn't like Bangle's styling but appreciates a great driver's car, one just has to bite the bullet and go for it.
    It would be a shame to deprive oneself of one of life's great experiences.
    The styling tends to grow on you.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Relax! Some people purposely say outrageously provocative things just to get our goat.
    I call them "hit & runners."
    Do you honestly think he will be back to answer your queries?
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    Yes...You sniffed that one out right away....they come and go quickly and stir things up for a while. I believe it was Pat who named them much earlier on. Trolls....and she warned us about not feeding the trolls.
  • I am only sure of the spirit of what you have been saying -- and I defend your right to say it; but, having said that, it seems you have been telling us how much you like your car.

    For the record, I like your car too -- or at least I can say I like the BMW family of cars overall. The fact that BMW offers a stick shift and AWD certainly puts this LPS car in a category of one as far as I know. This combination of features/content alone makes the 5 series a real contender as far as I am concerned.

    Yet, as the owner of the car that fights and fights hard to be last on the list (in terms of monthly sales in the US) or next to last, I can report to you that I really like my A6 more and more as time passes.

    Perhaps sales mean more than I think, I don't want to get in a sales numbers contest -- I will concede the BMW 5 and the Mercedes E are the sales leaders in units per month here in the US. Based on what I have read, however, this sales dichotomy seems to not be the case in the home market -- if that actually matters.

    Indeed, Audi is having its best year ever -- and it is comparing its current records to its previous records. Audi is on a roll.

    Likewise, the majority of the LPS comparison articles AND stand alone articles proclaim(ed) the Infiniti M as the new winna and champeen. We German car fans may not like this much, but for the moment the M is according to many the King of the Hill.

    Then you have the World Car of the Year award -- which did go Audi's A6. Heck, I am not certain that influences my thinking, it never did before.

    Now, today you have the Insurance Institute's safety awards and it seems that 3 Audis and 1 VW made the grade. The A6 made the grade with a "silver" rating. No BMW, this time, was so selected.

    Of course, knowing Audi they will not capitalize on the positive press such recognition should/could/ought-to generate. BMW keeps selling its cars based on the car -- Audi, and most of the other guys, seem to sell the price of entry rather than the product. BMW, to its credit, sells the car's virtues.

    But, I, as usual, digress.

    While the highest zoot BMW 5 series cars are outstanding performers with little competition (today), most of us are buying our A6's, RL's, M's, E's, STS's, and 5's with 6 cylinder engines (and two wheel drive, I'd bet given the choice.)

    So, sales figures while impressive and important are not in and of themselves proof of superiority.

    The BMW 5 and the Infiniti M's are very much alike. And, to my ear, butt and head the A6's and the M35x's are also VERY similar.

    After driving the STS, 5, A6 M, E and some other lesser cars (and after reading to excess the reviews from both sides of the Atlantic), I could only conclude that the M, the 5 and the A6 are three very closely matched cars based on content and performance.

    Further, after an admittedly unfair but not unlikely comparison that I personally participated in, the STS when equipped to the maximum with "sport" options, when compared with the 5 at the base level (530) -- gulp, is superior.

    Some may love the appearance of the 5 or the STS or the RL or the M "more" than the Lexus or the A6 -- that is certain to happen but proves nothing.

    I am hoping that we can return to talking about these cars subtle differences (for there are few substantial differences beyond the 5's combo of AWD and stick, which most folks probably eschew.)

    Please understand that it is difficult to believe that the styling alone (Mr. B's influence) is sufficient to declare the 5 is superior.

    If I subscribed to the notion that the auto magazine reviews were the oracle of all oracles, I would have to believe that the M is the best except when the A6 is declared the best by the contrarian Automobile magazine. Most magazines praise the 5, highly, but they also, this year, have said the 5's 15 minutes have passed.

    Next year, the 5 may, once again, rise to the top and the M's the RL's and the World Car may be toads.

    Today, the 5 has received virtually no wins, if any. It has not been awarded any major "global" awards, is not on the list of the most safe cars to be in during an accident, apparently CR has returned it to simply average status (but this means nadda to me) and it, in the US, outsells (usually) all the other guys.

    Yet, most of us would agree that the 5 is a fantastic performer. Some folks thinks it is the best. My guess is most folks who really are into this stuff think the 5 has some stiff competition, even if they remain convinced it is clearly superior.

    Once again, I conclude saying this is a great time to be in the market for one of these cars -- they are quite similar, styling notwithstanding, very similar in fact.

    Of course, I am often wrong, just never uncertain. :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The information you provide in paragraph #21 is irrelevant.
    Who cares that the 5 has received "virtually no wins, if any" and none your other measures of "success." I certainly don't!

    What it has won is the admiration of the majority of the LPS buying/leasing public who are spending the bucks.
    They and I certainly don't care about any of those things you mentioned.
    They are voting with their pocketbook and that is the biggest "win."

    When you purchase an LPS, it is the P that is the most important letter.
    BMW's have never been about plush interiors or breathtaking styling.
    People who constantly criticize the interiors as dismal or sparse are TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT!
    You want an interior. Get a Lexus!
    What BMW's have always been about is providing some of the most pleasurable, exciting, responsive driving experiences in this price-range on the planet.

    And that is why BMW has some of the most fiercely loyal customers on the planet.
    I am proud to consider myself one of them.
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