Like mark said, no way in hell. All of the makers will most likely send out a few press beaters, some 6s, some 8s, (except for Acura of course, where every RL WILL be the same) with varying options and varying packages. Its just the way it works. Much like with the hi-fi world, there's only so much use you can get out of a magazine review anyway. For example, Stereophile says Audioquest's DBS system (the "electric dielectric") doesnt do a thing, and The Absolute Sound says its a huge break through for cable design.
Its the same with cars. Some may think the M45 Sport is too harsh, and for others, just right. You really have to drive it yourself.
I've got a '04 LS430 with the Blackberry 7520 and am pleased with it. Only real issue is I haven't figured out how to download the phone book into the car but otherwise am pleased. Given that I have an address book with over 1,400 addresses and car only holds 500 it may not be that big an issue. It would be nice to download specific addresses one at a time and I am checking with RIM and Nextel to see if that can be done.
Would prefer to be able to dial from the car when moving but like the Nav, Lexus only allows inputs when not in motion. You can however dial from the device when moving and once the connection is made it switches from the phone to the car to continue the call. Getting it synched was easy, just took one try using the instructions in the owners manual for the Nav system and it worked fine.
Sure like just sitting down, starting the car and having the phone connection made with my device in the holster on my hip.
Well Automobile stated in this month's issue to tune in to next months issue to see how the GS430 stacks up against the V8 "Blue Bloods". Meaning they'll no doubt compared the GS430 to the E500, A6 4.2 and 545i. They might even include the M45 and STS V8. I'm sure Car and Driver is doing one right now for publication in either the May or June issues. Ditto for R&T.
"Ultimately my sedan is required to get me to work EVERYDAY, without fail."
Me also. That's why I left Japan Inc. My three previous Japanese vehicles were in the shop without fail once every few months for this that or the other thing, forcing me to rent a car to get to work.
The BMW has been in the shop 5 times in 3 years for normal service, and I get a loaner to boot.
One of the guys I work with has an Acura, OK, two of them do -- one says his has been very unreliable in the "nit" department (power window motors, fans, comfort stuff.) The other guy says the thing is a rock but has to be taken into the body shop a lot as it appears that it rusts easily almost as if it was not undercoated.
Go figure.
My current Audi, on the other hand has provided, from my perspective, nuttin' but love in the reliability department.
My wife's TT has been trouble free on the "big stuff" -- but seems to have little problems crop up all the time. My wife said to me this morning "I haven't been to the dealer for about 10 days, I need to have my built in phone microphone replaced (again.)" Moreover, lamps burn out with annoying regularity on the thing and the battery in the key fob drains every few weeks. My key fob battery, as I recall is the original (31 months old). Again, go figure.
The Japanese cars, however, appear to have so many folks rave about their reliability. I swear, I used to think that the people that went on about the reliability of their Japanese cars HAD to be plants -- the reliability stories were just too, too, perfect.
Now, however, I read the Automobile (April 2005) article called "Lost Its Luster" and, well, gulp, even the German market itself seems to acknowledge that German cars have really slipped in terms of their reliability (although there is some evidence that they may be on the rebound.)
What are we to make of all this? My wife is frustrated, yet loves her car; her co-workers that have Camrys and Lexus and Honda's and even Plymouth's go well beyond 100,000 miles and usually end up replacing their cars out of boredom rather than any technical "need" (like the car is costing so much to maintain).
Cars, generally, MUST be getting more reliable -- one of my arguments for a preference for German (and perhaps more broadly European cars in general) is "no boring cars." The few Lexus' I have rented and or test driven over the years always seemed to totally isolate me from the experience of driving.
Well, I cannot speak for a NEW GS, but I can attest to the feel of the M35x -- and the odd thing is here is the order of cars I drove back-to-back-to-back: pulled in the Infiniti dealer in my own 2003 stick shift equipped allroad, test drove both a G35x and an M35x, back into my allroad, then test drove a maxed out 2005 BMW 330xi and then drove my allroad out of the BMW dealership.
I was struck how the M35x and the 330xi had a solid feel that made them almost indistinguishable from each other -- and both of these cars (mine has 44,000 miles on it) felt somewhat tighter than my allroad, but the main point is the M35x felt "almost Teutonic!" Enough so, that it is a contender to be on the list titled: "No Boring Cars." Styling is subjective -- the M35x seems to be the [imaginary] offspring of an Infiniti G35x and a Cadillac CTS -- if you like that kind of edgy and somewhat modernistic yet vaguely derivative look, you'll not find the M35x objectionable. If you like the big butt BMW and Acura RL look, you may be less pleased; and, finally, if you like the big mouth new Audi look, you'll probably not like either the BMW, the Cadillac,or the Inifiniti.
To each his own.
I hope this does not start a "did too, did not" argument, er, contradictory line of ping pong -- beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My preference is leaning toward tolerating all these manufacturer's styling impressions coupled with just a tinge of revulsion for the Chris Bangle "big butt look" started by the BMW 7 and somewhat evident in the 5 and the RL. One more time, to each his / her own.
Interesting thoughts. For what its worth, Acura's are built well, but they've never come close to Lexus in terms of "this is how a car SHOULD be screwed together". Nothing near as many as Audi's major fiasco's, but Acura has one big one: the '01-'03 TL\CL automatic transmition recall. As you said, you might expect a few "nits" from a Japanese car, but transmition failure is not what I'd call a "nit."
Personally, Acura has never interested me much. Interior quality used to be barely better than Honda (though their quality in '04+ is excellent) and while the Legend was pretty nice, it was still V6 and FWD, and was quickly surpassed by the mighty LS400. That early spark of interesting car though with the Legend was quickly squashed by Honda conservative mediocrity, Vigor, RL, TL, CL, etc. etc. Acura is certainly more well known, but its cars were largely no better than Infiniti's in those days.
In '03, Acura and Infiniti left their respective boring 2nd and 3rd tier behind Lexus positions and went in different directions. I like Infiniti's choice more than Acura's. They seem to be finally living up to the mission of the original Q45, Lexus quality, BMW fun. Honda seems to want more excitement for Acura as well, the problem is "old school" Honda thinking keeps getting in the way. 4-way passanger seat? Fine. 3-channel ABS? Good enough. Bland, derivative styling? Who buys a car based on how it LOOKS? As Nissan\Infiniti keep gaining, I think a large part of their new strength will come at the expense of Honda\Acura who move too slow and are too scared to take chances.
I read that Automobile article, it was definitely interesting. It was not an article you would see in C&D or Motortrend.
One think I find kind of strange mark, the TT is certainly German enough, but it doesnt even handle all that well. Way too much understeer. Also, its AWD system (haldex) is more Volvo than Audi. Wouldnt she find an S2000, or better yet, an Elise, A LOT more entertaining to drive?
HMMMMMMMMMM! The first thing I noticed on the new RL was the rear end. Kept looking at it and looking at it on all the pictures on all the websites. The Spy sites etc... Nobody could even get a brochure on the car until it was almost "Show Time" in the dealerships around Oct.14th. (There were a few that got out...and I was envious.) Finally saw the car in Houston while visiting our daughter. My wife and I drove over to the nearest Acura dealer. I stood for a long time checking out the rear end that day. Checked it from every angle. I have to admit. She still has it after 37 years. Thats right. A great looking rear end!
Wow-great information! Thank you! I wonder how the current price of current GS will be affected by larger engine coming out next year. I am also curious to see the new body style of the y07 ES...I hope Lexus designs something that doesn't look like a Toyota......
I would expect the ES redesign to be even more luxurious, since the new Avalon is pretty close to the current ES in terms of luxury levels. The interior of both it and the LS redesign should really show the world how its done.
I've had 5 Audi Quattros going back to 1992 and I still have a 2004 S4. I just got a new Infiniti G34x AWD in July 2004 and I had to break my lease early since I was so dissatisfied; the quality of the interior materials was so much beneath what I was used to and the service was unreliable. I put a lot of time and research into my comparison shopping for a replacement. My Dad has a new Lexus ES300 and it's very much a luxury oriented big Camry. The A6 4.2 was my clear 1st choice, especially as it just won an international sedan of the year award (see www.audicanada.ca) and it's engine also just won a "top ten engines" award. It's far ahead of the others in terms of responsiveness, fun to drive factor, and torque and Audi's Quattro system remains superior to all the newcomers (despite the high tech descriptions in manuals) in snow. The only dealer that would offer me substantial help in breaking my Infiniti lease was at Acura and I got a deal too good to turn down for the RL. I just got it last week and I'm very happy with it; fit an finish ahead of Lexus, not quite up to Audi though and while performance average (in these days of 340 bhp Chryslers), I can very much enjoy it for a few years (after which I'm getting another A6!)
I test-drove the Acura RL, GS300 AWD and M35x in the last several weeks, and would like to offer my views to a least partially reciprocate all the great info on this list.
The reasons why I would not buy the GS: - Not enough headroom in the driver seat when I have the seatback almost upright, the way I like it. I am 6'0" and the sales guys blamed it on my "long torso build." He offered a custom-ordered car with no sunroom, but I would like to have a sunroom. (I have been suffering the same headroom problem with my current Volvo S70 for almost 8 years, so I am definitely looking for a car with more space.) - Not enough headroom in the rear seat (my son is 2" taller than me, so if I have problems fitting in, he will even more). - It is difficult to get in and out from the rear seat since the opening near the threshold is not wide enough to get the foot out w/o tilting; ugly scuffing of the lower door panel is inevitable. - Not enough engine horsepower for its class. Acceleration is adequate but unimpressive for a $50k sports sedan. - Driver's position is too much to the left side because of the hefty middle part under the center console (transmission housing?). One feels crammed against the B-pillar and the top part of the A-pillar feels too close to the head. (I wonder what the safety test results will be like; probably like on the E320 in which the dummy's head actually went out of the left window.) - The brake pedal is to the left of the steering wheel's axis. This is a safety concern because in panic mode one may accidentally step on the gas not the brake pedal. (This has been reported against various other makes, such as the Jeep. This is also an issue I have with the BMW and my current Mercedes ML.) - A wooden steering wheel. Not only do I find this distasteful and overdone from the aesthetic point of view (to each their own, though!), but it also is a safety concern because of a slim and slippery grip. I understand a car without one can be ordered but I am not willing to wait 5-6 months for custom delivery. I would not consider wrapping the steering wheel in an after-market leather case only to obscure this expensive wood option. - A relatively small trunk with a small opening. It is too narrow betwen the rear wheel wells. - A relatively short service interval of 5k miles. I would like to see 10k+ miles with synthetic oil, as in the ML.
On the GS plus side: - Frugality with fuel, although even at the high and rising premium gas prices, the annual savings are at the order of 1% of the price of the car compared to the RL and the M with average driving. - Overall Lexus-brand reliability, although there were some scary posts on this forum about leaky headlights, etc. On JD Power's site, Lexus is generally given 5 stars for quality with Acura at 3 stars and Infiniti at 2.
But, unfortunately the GS is out for me.
My impressions of the M35x compared to the RL: - The M generally offers all the same options, except for the rear mechanical sunshade that is only available with the expensive Premium package (and I do not need a rear DVD that comes with it). M's options over the RL are: -- Backup camera with car path tracing that changes as you turn the steering wheel--really neat. (Wish the woman who backed up into my Volvo at the grocery store's parking lot today had one of those on her G20!) -- Lane departure warning that activates above 45mph (may not work perfectly, as I read on this list, but at least it is there) - Much tighter turning radius (great for U-turns in the city). It appears to be even tighter than my ML, which I find very maneuverable. - Thicker steering wheel with a great grip that (unlike in the RL) does not obscure the gauge cluster in its top position when I adjust the driver's seat to my preferred position.
Apart from these above safety attributes, the M also has: - Front bucket seats with a firmer sports upholstery and great lateral support - Climate controlled seats, incl. cooling and at least 4-stage heating. (However, I read that the heating is with hot air not electricity, which would explain why some people observed it to be slow. If indeed there is no electric heat that would defeat the whole purpose, since IMO the seats should get warmer well before the engine does.) - More adjustments to the driver's seat - 14-speaker Bose, incl. 2 speakers in each front seat. (The multichannel Bose is somewhat overrated, as is the the Mark L. system on the GS, in the standard stereo mode. The stereo Bose in my ML sounds clearer and has deeper bass, actually. Try Peter White's "Talkin' Bout Love" piece from his "Confidential" CD for your tests.) - Larger NAV display that also plays DVDs in park mode - Better acceleration due to the higher low-rpm torque - More effective brakes with less fade. (Compared to the G35x that I also test-drove, the brakes are less grabby and easier to modulate.) - Appears to have more room in the rear seat.
The items of concern on the M were: - Stiffer ride. Have been suffering this on the Volvo GLT, esp. with its tires inflated to a full-load 36 psi per spec. On the tested M, the display showed 31-32 psi; the tires are 5mm lower profile and 1" larger diameter than on the RL. Did not check the treadwear number; hope at is at least 340 as on the GS. - Noisier engine; perhaps the exhaust note is tuned to be more sporty. Actually, online mags report a similar level of noise at full throttle (within 1dB) but about 6dB higher for the M at idle than for the RL. - Unclear service interval. (Oil change recommended every 3,750 miles, except if synthetic is used as the dealer claimed; I have this under verification on the M discussion thread). - Somewhat high fuel consumption reported on average by users online.
In terms of the overall safety, I cannot compare the 2006 M to the 2005 RL because neither the NHTSA nor the IIHS have tested the M yet. I can only speculate that, as a bigger cousin of the G35x, the M will have similar ratings, being all Good, except for the driver side dummy touching the steering wheel through the airbag in one test (Acceptable). Yes, I have seen a post arguing all these tests are antiquated and irrelevant, but IMO this is the best we have available.
Excellent review. My only concern with the M35 is the quality of the interior materials. I didn't feel they were up to the same high quality of the Lexus. Just wondering about long term durability. I'm only 5'-8" and the back seat of the GS is cramped - the M35 had plenty of room.
Thats really to be expected. No Infiniti in the history of the company has ever matched a Lexus when it comes to interior materials quality. The M is more for people interested in handling than the quality of the woodgrain.
While that may be true, the interior of the current M is superb in fit, finish, texture, and quality. The woven headliner is superb, the plastics appropriately "soft touch". I personally like the "matte" rosewood, and find the aluminum accents tastefully done. The leather is soft and aromatic (one might quibble about the Infiniti logo in the seat, but that's a small matter when you're sitting!) Other nice touches like the padding on the centre and door armrests and dual flip-down sunvisors add to the ambience. I think that it will easily age as well as current Lexus interiors -- but only time will tell . . .
Re: interior materials. I found the M35 interior to be a pleasant surprise. After the G35 (including the improved 2005 model), this was an area of concern.
The seats in the M are comfortable and supportive. There is plenty of head and leg room for tall people - more so than is the Lexus GS. Infiniti may have taken a few styling cues from Audi - as noticed by others, the head liner and materials covering the pillars are of high quality, as are the softly retractable grab handles. While sitting in the Lexus GS, I noticed the hard, molded plastic grab handles, very close to the drivers head (at least for tall drivers).
The woodgrain issue is a matter of personal taste. Infiniti went with a matte-appearance rather than the lacquered look - hard to say how it will wear over time. The shiny aluminum (?) in the Audi is prone to scratching, if you’re not careful, but the wood looks great. As there are Eddie Bauer and LL Bean editions of certain vehicles, perhaps eventually we’ll see someone offer the Ethan Allen interior.
There has been so much written about the difficulty in using some of the new auto interfaces, that it appears Infiniti tried to address this by also providing dedicated buttons for many functions - apparently too many for some people. There are a lot of buttons, but they are large and clearly labeled. Lexus hides some of the buttons by putting them in a pop-open door near the drivers left knee.
Several people have mentioned the short service interval for the M. At Audi and BMW, service is included - and they’d rather you not come too often. At Infiniti, you pay - and they’d prefer you come back as often as possible. I don’t know why Audi/BMW can have 10K mile service intervals, and Infiniti suggests 3,750. At least they provide a fleet of G35 loaner cars (as opposed to the Mitsubishi Mirage provided by my Audi dealer via Enterprise).
Re: ride quality. I found the M to be firm, yet compliant and comfortable. It felt more planted to the road than the Audi A6 (non-sport), and steering was more accurate. No doubt, there is a fair amount of engine noise which may get annoying on a long road trip.
I wish Infiniti had made more of an effort to distinguish the look of this vehicle; it simply looks too much like the G35. Watching them come and go at the dealer, you really have to look hard to tell them apart. The Audi A6 has a more impressive presence (the Lexus GS and RL also have somewhat generic overall exteriors).
I took a couple weekends to test drive the GS300 RWD (almost everything except Levinson), M35x (Journey and Tech) and M45 Sport (Journey and Tech). I am someone who is “into” cars, my wife (more like the average person) is someone who is NOT “into” cars. Here are my (and my wife’s) impressions.
Exterior:
M: I really like the aggressive, yet classy front end treatment of the M. The profile is okay, but not emotive. The rear end is pretty bland, except the very large tail-lights. My wife just said the car “looks okay.”
GS: The GS has the best looking profile in this class. It flows well and looks luxurious. The rear is just okay. What I don’t like is the front. The front is not aggressive looking at all, the bulge on the headlights gives it a bug-eyed look, and the separate headlights are too “cluttered” looking. My wife agreed that the profile looked good, but really hated the rear end, saying that it looks like a Civic but bigger. Personally, I don’t see the resemblance to a Civic’s butt. She also harped on the grill of the GS for some reason.
Interior design:
M: The M tries to do something different, and overall the effect is pretty good. I like the large, colorful screen. There is the right amount of wood in the car, and I got used to the matte finish after a while. However, although the orange lighting makes the car more sporty, it is not a personal favorite of mine. Orange reminds me of some of the computer screens from the 80’s.
GS: Lexus took the safe route, giving the GS a generic, yet familiar center stack design. The glossy wood looks good. I really like the machined finish of the instrument clusters, as well as the white lighting.
My wife did not like the “font” on the buttons on either car. (???)
Interior materials:
Very good materials on both. I felt and rubbed the materials on both cars, and I could not tell that those inside the GS were any better, contrary to what some others have reported. If anything, the thin strip of “aluminum” around the screen in the GS felt somewhat tacky. The leather seats in the GS were definitely softer, and the leather in the M was somewhat between the “soft” leather in the GS and the “hard” leather in the German cars. Matter of personal preference here, but I prefer softer leather.
One thing, I hate the feel of wood steering wheels, as in the GS. It looks good, but even regular old vinyl feels better in your hands.
Ergonomics:
Although overall ergonomics in both cars are pretty good, I would say that the GS edges the M in this regard. The buttons on the GS are more conveniently reachable, and I love the 10 way power adjusts on the passenger seat. I hate the fact that the front portion of the passenger seat cushion in the M cannot be adjusted separately. My wife likes to have the seat high, and felt that the front portion of the seat sloped too far down relative to the rear portion.
Room:
The M was just more spacious than the GS in basically every dimension. I was surprised by how cramped the GS felt. Even my wife (5’4) noticed this. There was a guy about 6’2 there, and he was saying how much he liked the GS, but just could not fit in it. The trunk on both cars is not that great, but the opening on the GS is just horrendous. A box of normal size won’t be able to fit through that opening.
Stereo:
The 5.1 Bose in the M was really nice, even with a regular CD playing. Unfortunately, the GS wasn’t equipped with Levinson, and the regular setup was really disappointing. The speakers just crackled and could not handle some low bass coming from an FM station. This was confirmed from a friend of mine who bought the 2006 GS300 without Levinson, and he said the stereo is pretty weak.
Acceleration:
The M35x, even with all that additional weight, just felt more powerful and faster than the GS300 RWD. The M35x did have that trademark VQ growl (coming mostly from the exhaust I think), which may get tiring after a while, depending on your preferences. The GS300 felt more sluggish than I anticipated. Even my wife said that she had to “push the pedal down further” to get the car to go, and it didn’t seem any faster than her 2004 Accord EX V6 auto.
The M45 was simply smooth and POWERFUL.
Handling and ride:
The GS300 was typical Lexus smooth. The road-feel and handling were pretty good, although I felt that the handling was too light and too boosted. Even though the M wasn’t as smooth as the GS, I was surprised to find how well the M35x and M45 Sport soaked up road irregularities, contrary to the reports of others. The handling of the M was very precise and “German” in feel, and there was definitely less body roll than the GS. Some people have said that the handling edge of the M won’t be apparent other than on a track, but I felt that it was definitely apparent in normal driving.
Are you sure it wasnt just bad FM reception? Normally the words "bass" and "radio" shouldnt appear in the same sentence, as analog broadcast isnt really capable of transmitting any. If the standard system is really capable of being undone by lowly FM, thats really disheartening. Lexus standard systems are usually very good, so it would have to mean that they purposely made it as bad as possible kind of like Ford does to get you to pony up for the good one.
I have test-driven several 2006 GS300s with RWD and am in agreement with most of your conclusions.
Exterior - Did not care for the vertical bars in the upper front grill section and the "chicken wire" (a la IS300)in the lower section. Side profile is very nice!
Interior/Room - Very good fit-and-finish with excellent materials. Definitely had a cramped feeling when sitting in the driver's seat. Others call it "cozy." At 12.7 cu.ft., trunk space is very small. Wheel well intrusions make it seem even smaller.
Stereo - Standard system sounded very good, but the Mark Levenson is noticeably better.
Acceleration - Adequate, but disappointing considering the advertised 245hp. Torque is actually 10 lb-ft less than the ES330. Can not understand why Lexus didn't use the 3.5-liter/280hp V6 in the new Avalon.
Handling & Ride - Suspension was set up just right for my taste.... sporty, but not bone-jarring under bad road conditions. Steering was very light, however, with too much assistance (boost). Have always favored the heavier, tighter Euro feel that BMWs best exemplify.
It was definitely some bass from an FM station that made the standard speakers flutter and crackle. Absolutely could not handle it at all. The salesman had to sheepishly turn down the bass setting, then it was okay.
My friend who just got the GS300 said that the standard system is pretty weak too. It's not that the sound is that bad, it just doesn't have much oomph at all, and struggles with low frequencies.
I'd been waiting for you to file a driving report on these cars...but you didn't say which one you want!!!! Though I think I've known all the time....its the M35.
I'm reading a lot of bad things about the GS regarding interior room and the trunk. I too have checked the car out and it is a lot smaller than it looked at the auto shows and in print. Much smaller.
I'm thinking about buying the M35. I wanted to get a Graphite exterior (darker silver) with Wheat (beige)/Rosewood interior. Unfortunately this combination is not readily available. It seems that Graphite exterior is generally matched with a black/rosewood interior in the M35. It is sometimes matched with the gray/aluminum interior but only in the M35 sport version.
I'm afraid to get the black interior because of the heat - live in Southern California, although the dealer says with the cooling seats this shouldn't be a problem. The gray interior is better although I would prefer the wood trim in lieu of the aluminum trim.
Anyone have any thoughts about the heat issue with the black interior and the rosewood versus aluminum trim. I'm not sure what other luxury brands do with regards to wood versus aluminum trim. It seems that every silver car has a black interior. Is an aluminum finish preferred over wood trim in sport sedans?
Well, I may as well add my opinion..I looked at and drove both cars..we now own a 99 Lexus GS300//maybe best we ever had..also own an 02 SC430..love that car..came with problems..1st one delivrered in Wash, DC area..but is nice now..anyhow, the Infiniti wins hands down when it comes to room..no question..nice car...but...but does not in my opinion have the good looks the Lexus enjoys..does not have the "feel" I felt in driving the Lexus.its something you cant really explain, its just there..Infinita is definitely more Germanic..harder seats, harder materials on door pull, mostly did not like that big knob in center of dash..we are ready to buy, but dealers think this is WWII and cars are scarce..but not so, in a few months they will get off their high horse and discount in order to move the cars..right now they are trying to get list price, but ...but..I am a solid buyer and am not going to pay list price..I emailed 5 dealers and one has offered me $1500 off MSRP..I intend to buky within 5 or 6 weeks..am now at our winter home and we return to our roots on April 20, if I have not gotten a deal of a minimum of $2500 off by then, I think it will be available at that time.My wife and I have in our lifetime owned many many cars, including a few exotics...I am 79 and think we know more that the guys that are hawking their wares today, I dont mind the other guy making a profit, buy hey, making $8000 on a $50,000 car...on me..is too much..give me a break.but I will buy early at $2500 off, and more off if we have to wait later..if we buyers all refused to pay list price,,that would change in a hurry..it costs money to floor plan those cars
Yeah, I think it would be the M35. But seat comfort (both front seats) is a big issue for me, and I really don't like the fact that you can't raise the front portion of the passenger seat on the M by itself. Come on Infiniti, ALL Lexuses, including the "lowly" ES and upcoming IS will have 10 way power front seats, not to mention memory. I don't need memory, but I hope they make the seat 10 way for the 2007 model. The driver seat is comfy, btw.
BTW, the last time I drove an E320 was a couple years ago. I want to check out the E350.
I hope you are right about the price dropping -- in the last couple of days, two dealers have offered $2,100 off MSRP of a M35x w/ tech, journey and rear deck lid spoiler, list at $50,240 - minus $2,100. Now, if, as you predict, the price drops -- another few hundred or even a thou, WOW!
Of course, the current residual of 60% for 36 months and 59% for 39 months should translate into a very nice lease payment -- now if I could just get a money factor that would "hold still!"
"Is an aluminum finish preferred over wood trim in sport sedans?"
Aluminum is considered more "sporty", but having wood in the car doesn't make the car any less sporty in reality. It's really just a personal preference. I like wood and the "warmth" it provides.
Had the pleasure of test driving 4 cars yesterday - Acura RL, Audi A6, Lexus GS300 and Infiniti M35. As I live in a small town in a hilly area of the country that gets a lot of snow I was just looking at AWD alternatives. All of the cars drove well and would appear to be good choices although I have to say that my personal preferences seem to be the Lexus and Infiniti. The Lexus was the most fun to drive but it seems significantly more expensive than the Infiniti which was also fun but had a little more road noise and didn't accelerate as smoothly. I thought the interior finish between the two was comparable in quality - really liked the way Infiniti actually had wood that looked like wood. (the Acura was a little small and seemed engineered more towards performance than I preferred and the Audi's interior seemed plain.)
Each of the cars seemed to have variations on how their AWD works. It would be very helpful if someone could explain the differences or point me in the direction of something that could explain what the differences mean. Thanks
"I like wood and the "warmth" it provides." - jrock65
I bet you do pal. LOL. Sorry, I had to. But I also prefer the wood grain over the aluminum. The aluminum reminds me of a SubZero Fridge or stainless steel countertops.
I'm not sure if I'm quite sold on the 'matte' look though. I thought I liked it better than 'traditional' laquered, but does anyone know how it holds up? Is it susceptible to scratching, pitting, fading, etc., moreso than laquered??? I know the laquered stuff is good for a long time with minimal care. Any feedback on the durability of the matte wood?
Also - did anyone feel that the vents above the dash were a tad too high up? Just curious.
Curious impressions. Most (including the pros) seem to think that the Lexus is the LEAST fun to drive, and its also much slower to 60 than the Infiniti, and apparently the RL as well, as Lexus claimed 6.9 seconds seems to be a bit "optimistic".
As for the AWD systems, the Audi uses a mechanical, torsen fixed torque split setup. Quattro was revolutionary...20 years ago, but today its heavy and lacks in features compared to its fancy electronic competition. Quattro isn't particularly beneficial to dry road handling, and Audi's tend to understeer because of it.
Acura calls theirs "Super-Handling AWD". Its a very advanced system that can not shift torque from 70/30 front to 30/70 rear, and can also move torque to the left or right side of the car, and accelerate the outer wheel to combat understeer. Note: SH-AWD is the only new technology of the group, and supposedly some cars have problems.
The M35 uses Nissan's ATTESA system, also featured in G35x and the JDM Skyline GT-R. Its a performance oriented system that ordinarily moves 100% of the power to the rear wheels, unless wheelspin is detected. A "snow" button can lock in an Audi style 50\50 split.
The GS300 AWD has the most mysterious system of the group, mostly because there's not really any detailed information about it. It works using the same VSC stability system as the RX330 does, but in regards to torque ratios and things like that, I have no idea.
"No Infiniti in the history of the company has ever matched a Lexus when it comes to interior materials quality."
Historically, this has been true. However, the new 2006 M IMO has excellent fit and finish. In addition, it offers rosewood wood grain withe every interior,m whereas the GS300 offers only the black walnut with the silver-toned exterior finishes. IMO, the black walnut looks like plastic-I would much prefer the lighter wood...all is subjective.
" too have checked the car out and it is a lot smaller than it looked at the auto shows and in print. Much smaller."
At my local dealership here in Atlanta, they had a 2005 GS300 parked right next to the 2006. In looking at the car from both the front and back, there seems to be a big difference in the width of the car-the 2006 appears to be much narrower.
Appreciate the insights on the various vehicles. It sounds like more test drives may be in order - thinking back it may be that the fun during the test drive in the GS300 was because the road had the most hills and curves and we could play with what the car could do.
Do you (or anyone else) have an opinion as to which of the systems would handle best in heavy snow?
I prefer the rosewood to the aluminum. One particular M45 Sport that I drove had the aluminum trim and it made the interior look very cold and uninviting.
I completely agree with you! First, I do think that the M35 has more to offer and is less expensive than the Lexus, however there is a certain intangible feel to a Lexus that I can't seem to get passed. As a result, I am still undecided. Second, I refuse to pay list price. Through Costco's car buying program, Infiniti dealerships are offering deals at $2,500 above invoice. This is very tempting! Not sure if Lexus is doing the same, but I have not heard of anyone even coming close to this kind of deal on a Lexus. I plan to wait at least three months to purchase and will see where prices stand at that point. Good luck!
As far as weight is concerned, AWD, when added to a RWD or FWD car usually adds over 150 pounds (sometimes more) onto a car's weight. When the car is not available without AWD it is difficult to determine what the car might weigh if it did not have AWD; but, after years of reading about the various AWD systems the weight factor that is oft repeated is ~ 150 pounds. Check the M35 vs the M35x for some indication of this.
In the Audis case, quattro actually can be said to improve the understeering behavior of the A6's chassis. The Audi's engine faces north south and is ahead of the front axle -- the weight distribution of the Audi A6 (C5) which could be had either with or without quattro was worse (that is the front end was even heavier as a %) without quattro. So, despite the current fact that the A6 (C6) can only be had with quattro, suffice it to say the Audis understeering behavior would be even worse if it were FWD. For the record, Audi is starting down the road toward better balance by announcing its intention to move the engine back, perhaps ultimately going to an E W orientation, who knows. Audis quattro system IS mechanical, but it is instantaneous in its actuation and does not rely on putting the brakes on to a wheel that is "misbehaving" (although ESP, which is standard, does have this as one of its capabilities).
All the rave today is to proclaim rearward biased AWD. The Audi, currently, starts out with its torque split 50-50, the Acura is FWD biased and the Infiniti is RWD biased to the extreme even though it can move torque to the front end when needed. Acura's system IS new and SH-AWD can shift the torque on the rear wheels from side to side to improve cornering. This torque shift can be as much as 5%, which under the right circumstances can be all the difference.
Other systems and electronics that the others are equipped with do provide some of the same benefits of SH-AWD, the stability program's capabilities leap to mind. However, the Acura has both SH-AWD and a stability program. Now, if the Acura would shift to a RWD biased AWD, that would probably have the car magazine writers tongues all awag.
Generally I agree with each and every point, including the mystery that is the Lexus AWD system. But the suggestion that the quattro system is significantly heavier than other's is a bit overstated. Further, although the torsen system lacks the left right torque shift capabilities of SH-AWD, it has been demonstrated to be a very effective technology for improving the sporting nature of Audis for 25 years and continues to do so today. The very fact that Audi is a legitimate player in the Premium Performance Luxury Sedan market is in large measure due to the preeminence of quattro in the market.
I also grant that now that "everybody" is rushing to have an AWD sport luxury premium car, that Audi is no longer the "leader of the pack" -- but I would still argue that Audi is "a" leader "in" the pack. Worthy of being in the class.
The car gods at C&D and R&T and Motor Trend seem to really fawn over both the Acura RL and the new M's from Infiniti -- less so the Lexus for only 1 reason, according to C&D the new Lexus is perfect in every way, but it lacks "passion" (it is somewhat less appealing from their driver's perspective). They can say nothing bad about the Lexus, don't get me wrong, they just don't find it "involving or engaging" when they're behind the wheel.
If someone gave me one of these cars, free of charge (thank you Opra if you're reading this) and I was unable to trade it in or sell it for 50,000 miles, I would be quite pleased to have any of these dandy new AWD Premium Sport Sedans. If, under the conditions of "free," I was given a choice, I would probably take the Audi A6 with a 4.2 engine (remember in my fantasy it is 100% free).
In the real world, however, with a new 5 series BMW in the wings and these three fine Japanese cars now competing for my dollars, the Infiniti -- TODAY -- would win my vote. Why?
Almost a BMW insofar as the way that it handles or so say the Car Magazine writers; almost an Audi in terms of the interior -- so says ME. More power, more content, better warranty, more bang for the buck. The lease on an Infiniti M35x for 39 months including tax and for 15,000 miles per year that has a sticker of $50,240 is $677 with no up front money.
My allroad is $790/mo (same deal essentially and the MSRP was under $50K) -- and a new A6 3.2 similarly equipped and priced (if that is even possible) has a lease number that begins with an "8!" Now, time will tell if the new 5 series AWD can be both a match in content and competitive in price -- hence my qualifier, TODAY. Moreover, it is also possible that Audi Financial will "get aggressive" and meet or beat the global competition (remember there is a V6 STS AWD buzzing about soon, too.)
So I'll take anyone of them for free and thank you very much. They are in many ways comparable cars -- today the Acura and the Infiniti seem to be bearing down hard on the Germans, see they just flashed their lights, as if to say "move over."
Audi and BMW will counter, of that I am certain -- it will be soon, but that may mean a couple of years in the car biz.
Hope these thoughts, opinions and observations are helpful or at the very least interesting.
I know that to most people it may not be an issue, as the front part only slopes down somewhat when you have the seat as high as possible. With the seat at a normal height, the angle is fine.
And perhaps the extra power of the 430 will win them over -- my interests for my own purchase remain exclusively in the AWD camp, so I will certainly read the review, but even if they say "GS300 Passion Lost" and "GS430 Passion Found" it won't be on my radar. Only Audi, thus far, in this league, seems to be putting V8's and AWD together (footnote, I guess you could add Mercedes, but then the price point jumps to the breathtakingly expensive zone.)
Ditto the STS V8 AWD ($62,000+ -- too bad the STS can't be "option unbundled" -- it might be a contender, too, then.)
"Only Audi, thus far, in this league, seems to be putting V8's and AWD together."
Considering that the A6 4.2 is, at most, 3/10ths of a second faster than the M35x to 60mph, and that it's fuel economy is worse by at least 1mpg overall (naturally), why the preference for the V8?
Funny thing is, the Audi V8 is quieter than the M's. Is that where the extra $6k-$9k is going?
If you have had an Audi V8 equipped car in the last 8 to 10 years, especially the generation that started in the then new to the US A8, you would know, or might know that the Audi V8 at full throttle makes the sweeeeeeetest of sounds.
And, remember, I was in my imaginary world where Opra or somebody had offered me a free Premium Performance Luxury car of my choice -- despite my desire NOT to have a gas guzzler, well, if Opra were to offer me a $59,000 Audi A6 with all the trimmings, I figured why not go for the big dog with great sounding engine, I could afford the $3 buck/gallon gas if my basic car was a gimmie.
When not the beneficiary of Opra's largesse, I would certainly take the 280 HP 270 lb ft of torque engine in the Infiniti any day.
If you want to grin, tho, take either an S4, A6 or A8 for a test drive -- and when the coast is clear, floor it -- the grin-o-meter will go to eleven!
I'm surprised that you didn't see my post where I talked about doing just that (flooring the V8 A6 and the S4 six speed.)
I had the S4 at 110mph with the salesman gripping the armrest and the "oh sh*t" handles for dear life!
I liked the V8 A6, but for the money, I think I'd go for the M35x. If it were the Oprah-car-giveaway scenario, then I might opt for the V8 A6.
Let me ask you this: Assuming you could get the lowest stated prices listed on this site for both cars: The M35x w/ Premium Pkg for $51,000 ? OR The A6 4.2 fully loaded for $56,000 ?
If Opra is not involved, I guess I would have to go with the M35x -- but, and this is not to bring up old subjects -- the premium package is goofy.
I would pay for heated rear seats. I have no need for rear seat DVD. I'm not sure I would have passengers who would feel that I had chinzted out on them if they did not have a reclining back seat. And, I have had a rear sunshade in two Audis and I would pay for that.
The Premium package is, in my estimation, leaving money on the table (for Infiniti). Let me buy the options onesey twosey, even if they cost a bit more when not bundled.
For a short moment of time, I actually thought I would consider the new Cadillac STS AWD, but then I found out it was not offered except with a bunch of other stuff that raised the price to over $62,000. I love toys and gadgets and stuff, probably more than the next guy -- but when you take a $40,000 car or even a $48,000 car and force a bunch of options on the buyer to get to the point of being able to order the AWD option for an additional $1900 -- well I'm not your customer.
I understand packages, I am not against them -- but unless something is a prerequisite and there is a good reason for it, don't make me buy a rear seat DVD player to get a $300 sunshade.
So, I'm not interested in the Prem Pak but of the choices you offered assuming no Opra, well -- the Infiniti wins again.
Comments
It would be interesting to see every magazine use the same group of cars and all use the identical test criteria.
Its the same with cars. Some may think the M45 Sport is too harsh, and for others, just right. You really have to drive it yourself.
Would prefer to be able to dial from the car when moving but like the Nav, Lexus only allows inputs when not in motion. You can however dial from the device when moving and once the connection is made it switches from the phone to the car to continue the call. Getting it synched was easy, just took one try using the instructions in the owners manual for the Nav system and it worked fine.
Sure like just sitting down, starting the car and having the phone connection made with my device in the holster on my hip.
M
Me also. That's why I left Japan Inc. My three previous Japanese vehicles were in the shop without fail once every few months for this that or the other thing, forcing me to rent a car to get to work.
The BMW has been in the shop 5 times in 3 years for normal service, and I get a loaner to boot.
Go figure.
My current Audi, on the other hand has provided, from my perspective, nuttin' but love in the reliability department.
My wife's TT has been trouble free on the "big stuff" -- but seems to have little problems crop up all the time. My wife said to me this morning "I haven't been to the dealer for about 10 days, I need to have my built in phone microphone replaced (again.)" Moreover, lamps burn out with annoying regularity on the thing and the battery in the key fob drains every few weeks. My key fob battery, as I recall is the original (31 months old). Again, go figure.
The Japanese cars, however, appear to have so many folks rave about their reliability. I swear, I used to think that the people that went on about the reliability of their Japanese cars HAD to be plants -- the reliability stories were just too, too, perfect.
Now, however, I read the Automobile (April 2005) article called "Lost Its Luster" and, well, gulp, even the German market itself seems to acknowledge that German cars have really slipped in terms of their reliability (although there is some evidence that they may be on the rebound.)
What are we to make of all this? My wife is frustrated, yet loves her car; her co-workers that have Camrys and Lexus and Honda's and even Plymouth's go well beyond 100,000 miles and usually end up replacing their cars out of boredom rather than any technical "need" (like the car is costing so much to maintain).
Cars, generally, MUST be getting more reliable -- one of my arguments for a preference for German (and perhaps more broadly European cars in general) is "no boring cars." The few Lexus' I have rented and or test driven over the years always seemed to totally isolate me from the experience of driving.
Well, I cannot speak for a NEW GS, but I can attest to the feel of the M35x -- and the odd thing is here is the order of cars I drove back-to-back-to-back: pulled in the Infiniti dealer in my own 2003 stick shift equipped allroad, test drove both a G35x and an M35x, back into my allroad, then test drove a maxed out 2005 BMW 330xi and then drove my allroad out of the BMW dealership.
I was struck how the M35x and the 330xi had a solid feel that made them almost indistinguishable from each other -- and both of these cars (mine has 44,000 miles on it) felt somewhat tighter than my allroad, but the main point is the M35x felt "almost Teutonic!" Enough so, that it is a contender to be on the list titled: "No Boring Cars." Styling is subjective -- the M35x seems to be the [imaginary] offspring of an Infiniti G35x and a Cadillac CTS -- if you like that kind of edgy and somewhat modernistic yet vaguely derivative look, you'll not find the M35x objectionable. If you like the big butt BMW and Acura RL look, you may be less pleased; and, finally, if you like the big mouth new Audi look, you'll probably not like either the BMW, the Cadillac,or the Inifiniti.
To each his own.
I hope this does not start a "did too, did not" argument, er, contradictory line of ping pong -- beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My preference is leaning toward tolerating all these manufacturer's styling impressions coupled with just a tinge of revulsion for the Chris Bangle "big butt look" started by the BMW 7 and somewhat evident in the 5 and the RL. One more time, to each his / her own.
Kirk out.
Personally, Acura has never interested me much. Interior quality used to be barely better than Honda (though their quality in '04+ is excellent) and while the Legend was pretty nice, it was still V6 and FWD, and was quickly surpassed by the mighty LS400. That early spark of interesting car though with the Legend was quickly squashed by Honda conservative mediocrity, Vigor, RL, TL, CL, etc. etc. Acura is certainly more well known, but its cars were largely no better than Infiniti's in those days.
In '03, Acura and Infiniti left their respective boring 2nd and 3rd tier behind Lexus positions and went in different directions. I like Infiniti's choice more than Acura's. They seem to be finally living up to the mission of the original Q45, Lexus quality, BMW fun. Honda seems to want more excitement for Acura as well, the problem is "old school" Honda thinking keeps getting in the way. 4-way passanger seat? Fine. 3-channel ABS? Good enough. Bland, derivative styling? Who buys a car based on how it LOOKS? As Nissan\Infiniti keep gaining, I think a large part of their new strength will come at the expense of Honda\Acura who move too slow and are too scared to take chances.
I read that Automobile article, it was definitely interesting. It was not an article you would see in C&D or Motortrend.
One think I find kind of strange mark, the TT is certainly German enough, but it doesnt even handle all that well. Way too much understeer. Also, its AWD system (haldex) is more Volvo than Audi. Wouldnt she find an S2000, or better yet, an Elise, A LOT more entertaining to drive?
The reasons why I would not buy the GS:
- Not enough headroom in the driver seat when I have the seatback almost upright, the way I like it. I am 6'0" and the sales guys blamed it on my "long torso build." He offered a custom-ordered car with no sunroom, but I would like to have a sunroom. (I have been suffering
the same headroom problem with my current Volvo S70 for almost 8 years, so I am definitely looking for a car with more space.)
- Not enough headroom in the rear seat (my son is 2" taller than me, so if I have problems fitting in, he will even more).
- It is difficult to get in and out from the rear seat since the opening near the threshold is not wide enough to get the foot out w/o tilting; ugly scuffing of the lower door panel is inevitable.
- Not enough engine horsepower for its class.
Acceleration is adequate but unimpressive for a $50k sports sedan.
- Driver's position is too much to the left side
because of the hefty middle part under the center console (transmission housing?). One feels crammed against the B-pillar and the top part of the A-pillar feels too close to the head. (I wonder what the safety test results will be like; probably like on the E320 in which the dummy's head actually went out of the left window.)
- The brake pedal is to the left of the steering wheel's axis. This is a safety concern because in panic mode one may accidentally step on the gas not the brake pedal. (This has been reported against various other makes, such as the Jeep. This is also an issue I have with the BMW and my current Mercedes ML.)
- A wooden steering wheel. Not only do I find this distasteful and overdone from the aesthetic point of view (to each their own, though!), but it also is a safety concern because of a slim and slippery grip. I understand a car without one can be ordered but I am not willing to wait 5-6 months for custom delivery. I would not consider wrapping the steering wheel in an after-market leather case only to obscure this expensive wood option.
- A relatively small trunk with a small opening. It is too narrow betwen the rear wheel wells.
- A relatively short service interval of 5k miles. I would like to see 10k+ miles with synthetic oil, as in the ML.
On the GS plus side:
- Frugality with fuel, although even at the high and rising premium gas prices, the annual savings are at the order of 1% of the price of the car compared to the RL and the M with average driving.
- Overall Lexus-brand reliability, although there were some scary posts on this forum about leaky headlights, etc. On JD Power's site, Lexus is generally given 5 stars for quality with Acura at 3 stars and Infiniti at 2.
But, unfortunately the GS is out for me.
My impressions of the M35x compared to the RL:
- The M generally offers all the same options, except for the rear mechanical sunshade that is only available with the expensive Premium package (and I do not need a rear DVD that comes with it). M's options over the RL are:
-- Backup camera with car path tracing that changes as you turn the steering wheel--really neat. (Wish the woman who backed up into my Volvo at the grocery store's parking lot today had one of those on her G20!)
-- Lane departure warning that activates above 45mph (may not work perfectly, as I read on this list, but at least it is there)
- Much tighter turning radius (great for U-turns in the city). It appears to be even tighter than my ML, which I find very maneuverable.
- Thicker steering wheel with a great grip that (unlike in the RL) does not obscure the gauge cluster in its top position when I adjust the driver's seat to my preferred position.
Apart from these above safety attributes, the M also has:
- Front bucket seats with a firmer sports upholstery and great lateral support
- Climate controlled seats, incl. cooling and at least 4-stage heating. (However, I read that the heating is with hot air not electricity, which would explain why some people observed it to be slow. If indeed there is no electric heat that would defeat the whole purpose, since IMO the seats should get warmer well before the engine does.)
- More adjustments to the driver's seat
- 14-speaker Bose, incl. 2 speakers in each front seat. (The multichannel Bose is somewhat overrated, as is the the Mark L. system on the GS, in the standard stereo mode. The stereo Bose in my ML sounds clearer and has deeper bass, actually. Try Peter White's "Talkin' Bout Love" piece from his "Confidential" CD for your tests.)
- Larger NAV display that also plays DVDs in park mode
- Better acceleration due to the higher low-rpm torque
- More effective brakes with less fade. (Compared to the G35x that I also test-drove, the brakes are less grabby and easier to modulate.)
- Appears to have more room in the rear seat.
The items of concern on the M were:
- Stiffer ride. Have been suffering this on the Volvo GLT, esp. with its tires inflated to a full-load 36 psi per spec. On the tested M, the display showed 31-32 psi; the tires are 5mm lower profile and 1" larger diameter than on the RL. Did not check the treadwear number; hope at is at least 340 as on the GS.
- Noisier engine; perhaps the exhaust note is tuned to be more sporty. Actually, online mags report a similar level of noise at full throttle (within 1dB) but about 6dB higher for the M at idle than for the RL.
- Unclear service interval. (Oil change recommended every 3,750 miles, except if synthetic is used as the dealer claimed; I have this under verification on the M discussion thread).
- Somewhat high fuel consumption reported on average by users online.
In terms of the overall safety, I cannot compare the 2006 M to the 2005 RL because neither the NHTSA nor the IIHS have tested the M yet. I can only speculate that, as a bigger cousin of the G35x, the M will have similar ratings, being all Good, except for the driver side dummy touching the steering wheel through the airbag in one test (Acceptable). Yes, I have seen a post arguing all these tests are antiquated and irrelevant, but IMO this is the best we have available.
Hope this is useful.
The seats in the M are comfortable and supportive. There is plenty of head and leg room for tall people - more so than is the Lexus GS. Infiniti may have taken a few styling cues from Audi - as noticed by others, the head liner and materials covering the pillars are of high quality, as are the softly retractable grab handles. While sitting in the Lexus GS, I noticed the hard, molded plastic grab handles, very close to the drivers head (at least for tall drivers).
The woodgrain issue is a matter of personal taste. Infiniti went with a matte-appearance rather than the lacquered look - hard to say how it will wear over time. The shiny aluminum (?) in the Audi is prone to scratching, if you’re not careful, but the wood looks great. As there are Eddie Bauer and LL Bean editions of certain vehicles, perhaps eventually we’ll see someone offer the Ethan Allen interior.
There has been so much written about the difficulty in using some of the new auto interfaces, that it appears Infiniti tried to address this by also providing dedicated buttons for many functions - apparently too many for some people. There are a lot of buttons, but they are large and clearly labeled. Lexus hides some of the buttons by putting them in a pop-open door near the drivers left knee.
Several people have mentioned the short service interval for the M. At Audi and BMW, service is included - and they’d rather you not come too often. At Infiniti, you pay - and they’d prefer you come back as often as possible. I don’t know why Audi/BMW can have 10K mile service intervals, and Infiniti suggests 3,750. At least they provide a fleet of G35 loaner cars (as opposed to the Mitsubishi Mirage provided by my Audi dealer via Enterprise).
Re: ride quality. I found the M to be firm, yet compliant and comfortable. It felt more planted to the road than the Audi A6 (non-sport), and steering was more accurate. No doubt, there is a fair amount of engine noise which may get annoying on a long road trip.
I wish Infiniti had made more of an effort to distinguish the look of this vehicle; it simply looks too much like the G35. Watching them come and go at the dealer, you really have to look hard to tell them apart. The Audi A6 has a more impressive presence (the Lexus GS and RL also have somewhat generic overall exteriors).
Exterior:
M: I really like the aggressive, yet classy front end treatment of the M. The profile is okay, but not emotive. The rear end is pretty bland, except the very large tail-lights. My wife just said the car “looks okay.”
GS: The GS has the best looking profile in this class. It flows well and looks luxurious. The rear is just okay. What I don’t like is the front. The front is not aggressive looking at all, the bulge on the headlights gives it a bug-eyed look, and the separate headlights are too “cluttered” looking. My wife agreed that the profile looked good, but really hated the rear end, saying that it looks like a Civic but bigger. Personally, I don’t see the resemblance to a Civic’s butt. She also harped on the grill of the GS for some reason.
Interior design:
M: The M tries to do something different, and overall the effect is pretty good. I like the large, colorful screen. There is the right amount of wood in the car, and I got used to the matte finish after a while. However, although the orange lighting makes the car more sporty, it is not a personal favorite of mine. Orange reminds me of some of the computer screens from the 80’s.
GS: Lexus took the safe route, giving the GS a generic, yet familiar center stack design. The glossy wood looks good. I really like the machined finish of the instrument clusters, as well as the white lighting.
My wife did not like the “font” on the buttons on either car. (???)
Interior materials:
Very good materials on both. I felt and rubbed the materials on both cars, and I could not tell that those inside the GS were any better, contrary to what some others have reported. If anything, the thin strip of “aluminum” around the screen in the GS felt somewhat tacky. The leather seats in the GS were definitely softer, and the leather in the M was somewhat between the “soft” leather in the GS and the “hard” leather in the German cars. Matter of personal preference here, but I prefer softer leather.
One thing, I hate the feel of wood steering wheels, as in the GS. It looks good, but even regular old vinyl feels better in your hands.
Ergonomics:
Although overall ergonomics in both cars are pretty good, I would say that the GS edges the M in this regard. The buttons on the GS are more conveniently reachable, and I love the 10 way power adjusts on the passenger seat. I hate the fact that the front portion of the passenger seat cushion in the M cannot be adjusted separately. My wife likes to have the seat high, and felt that the front portion of the seat sloped too far down relative to the rear portion.
Room:
The M was just more spacious than the GS in basically every dimension. I was surprised by how cramped the GS felt. Even my wife (5’4) noticed this. There was a guy about 6’2 there, and he was saying how much he liked the GS, but just could not fit in it. The trunk on both cars is not that great, but the opening on the GS is just horrendous. A box of normal size won’t be able to fit through that opening.
Stereo:
The 5.1 Bose in the M was really nice, even with a regular CD playing. Unfortunately, the GS wasn’t equipped with Levinson, and the regular setup was really disappointing. The speakers just crackled and could not handle some low bass coming from an FM station. This was confirmed from a friend of mine who bought the 2006 GS300 without Levinson, and he said the stereo is pretty weak.
Acceleration:
The M35x, even with all that additional weight, just felt more powerful and faster than the GS300 RWD. The M35x did have that trademark VQ growl (coming mostly from the exhaust I think), which may get tiring after a while, depending on your preferences. The GS300 felt more sluggish than I anticipated. Even my wife said that she had to “push the pedal down further” to get the car to go, and it didn’t seem any faster than her 2004 Accord EX V6 auto.
The M45 was simply smooth and POWERFUL.
Handling and ride:
The GS300 was typical Lexus smooth. The road-feel and handling were pretty good, although I felt that the handling was too light and too boosted. Even though the M wasn’t as smooth as the GS, I was surprised to find how well the M35x and M45 Sport soaked up road irregularities, contrary to the reports of others. The handling of the M was very precise and “German” in feel, and there was definitely less body roll than the GS. Some people have said that the handling edge of the M won’t be apparent other than on a track, but I felt that it was definitely apparent in normal driving.
Exterior - Did not care for the vertical bars in the upper front grill section and the "chicken wire" (a la IS300)in the lower section. Side profile is very nice!
Interior/Room - Very good fit-and-finish with excellent materials. Definitely had a cramped feeling when sitting in the driver's seat. Others call it "cozy." At 12.7 cu.ft., trunk space is very small. Wheel well intrusions make it seem even smaller.
Stereo - Standard system sounded very good, but the Mark Levenson is noticeably better.
Acceleration - Adequate, but disappointing considering the advertised 245hp. Torque is actually 10 lb-ft less than the ES330. Can not understand why Lexus didn't use the 3.5-liter/280hp V6 in the new Avalon.
Handling & Ride - Suspension was set up just right for my taste.... sporty, but not bone-jarring under bad road conditions. Steering was very light, however, with too much assistance (boost). Have always favored the heavier, tighter Euro feel that BMWs best exemplify.
Martin T.
My friend who just got the GS300 said that the standard system is pretty weak too. It's not that the sound is that bad, it just doesn't have much oomph at all, and struggles with low frequencies.
I'm reading a lot of bad things about the GS regarding interior room and the trunk. I too have checked the car out and it is a lot smaller than it looked at the auto shows and in print. Much smaller.
M
I'm afraid to get the black interior because of the heat - live in Southern California, although the dealer says with the cooling seats this shouldn't be a problem. The gray interior is better although I would prefer the wood trim in lieu of the aluminum trim.
Anyone have any thoughts about the heat issue with the black interior and the rosewood versus aluminum trim. I'm not sure what other luxury brands do with regards to wood versus aluminum trim. It seems that every silver car has a black interior. Is an aluminum finish preferred over wood trim in sport sedans?
Thank you
gs300
BTW, the last time I drove an E320 was a couple years ago. I want to check out the E350.
Of course, the current residual of 60% for 36 months and 59% for 39 months should translate into a very nice lease payment -- now if I could just get a money factor that would "hold still!"
Aluminum is considered more "sporty", but having wood in the car doesn't make the car any less sporty in reality. It's really just a personal preference. I like wood and the "warmth" it provides.
Each of the cars seemed to have variations on how their AWD works. It would be very helpful if someone could explain the differences or point me in the direction of something that could explain what the differences mean. Thanks
I bet you do pal. LOL.
Sorry, I had to. But I also prefer the wood grain over the aluminum. The aluminum reminds me of a SubZero Fridge or stainless steel countertops.
I'm not sure if I'm quite sold on the 'matte' look though. I thought I liked it better than 'traditional' laquered, but does anyone know how it holds up? Is it susceptible to scratching, pitting, fading, etc., moreso than laquered??? I know the laquered stuff is good for a long time with minimal care. Any feedback on the durability of the matte wood?
Also - did anyone feel that the vents above the dash were a tad too high up? Just curious.
The E350 is a change in engine only, and looking at them the other day its more formal than the M35 inside and out, imo.
M
As for the AWD systems, the Audi uses a mechanical, torsen fixed torque split setup. Quattro was revolutionary...20 years ago, but today its heavy and lacks in features compared to its fancy electronic competition. Quattro isn't particularly beneficial to dry road handling, and Audi's tend to understeer because of it.
Acura calls theirs "Super-Handling AWD". Its a very advanced system that can not shift torque from 70/30 front to 30/70 rear, and can also move torque to the left or right side of the car, and accelerate the outer wheel to combat understeer. Note: SH-AWD is the only new technology of the group, and supposedly some cars have problems.
The M35 uses Nissan's ATTESA system, also featured in G35x and the JDM Skyline GT-R. Its a performance oriented system that ordinarily moves 100% of the power to the rear wheels, unless wheelspin is detected. A "snow" button can lock in an Audi style 50\50 split.
The GS300 AWD has the most mysterious system of the group, mostly because there's not really any detailed information about it. It works using the same VSC stability system as the RX330 does, but in regards to torque ratios and things like that, I have no idea.
I assume you meant it CAN shift torque from 70/30 front to 30/70 rear?
I do not understand why this is so. Can it really cost much extra to have this adjustability on the passenger seat as well as the Driver's?
- Ray
For whom immediate comfort AND long term adjustability are both (driver) seat issues . . .
Historically, this has been true. However, the new 2006 M IMO has excellent fit and finish. In addition, it offers rosewood wood grain withe every interior,m whereas the GS300 offers only the black walnut with the silver-toned exterior finishes. IMO, the black walnut looks like plastic-I would much prefer the lighter wood...all is subjective.
At my local dealership here in Atlanta, they had a 2005 GS300 parked right next to the 2006. In looking at the car from both the front and back, there seems to be a big difference in the width of the car-the 2006 appears to be much narrower.
Do you (or anyone else) have an opinion as to which of the systems would handle best in heavy snow?
In the Audis case, quattro actually can be said to improve the understeering behavior of the A6's chassis. The Audi's engine faces north south and is ahead of the front axle -- the weight distribution of the Audi A6 (C5) which could be had either with or without quattro was worse (that is the front end was even heavier as a %) without quattro. So, despite the current fact that the A6 (C6) can only be had with quattro, suffice it to say the Audis understeering behavior would be even worse if it were FWD. For the record, Audi is starting down the road toward better balance by announcing its intention to move the engine back, perhaps ultimately going to an E W orientation, who knows. Audis quattro system IS mechanical, but it is instantaneous in its actuation and does not rely on putting the brakes on to a wheel that is "misbehaving" (although ESP, which is standard, does have this as one of its capabilities).
All the rave today is to proclaim rearward biased AWD. The Audi, currently, starts out with its torque split 50-50, the Acura is FWD biased and the Infiniti is RWD biased to the extreme even though it can move torque to the front end when needed. Acura's system IS new and SH-AWD can shift the torque on the rear wheels from side to side to improve cornering. This torque shift can be as much as 5%, which under the right circumstances can be all the difference.
Other systems and electronics that the others are equipped with do provide some of the same benefits of SH-AWD, the stability program's capabilities leap to mind. However, the Acura has both SH-AWD and a stability program. Now, if the Acura would shift to a RWD biased AWD, that would probably have the car magazine writers tongues all awag.
Generally I agree with each and every point, including the mystery that is the Lexus AWD system. But the suggestion that the quattro system is significantly heavier than other's is a bit overstated. Further, although the torsen system lacks the left right torque shift capabilities of SH-AWD, it has been demonstrated to be a very effective technology for improving the sporting nature of Audis for 25 years and continues to do so today. The very fact that Audi is a legitimate player in the Premium Performance Luxury Sedan market is in large measure due to the preeminence of quattro in the market.
I also grant that now that "everybody" is rushing to have an AWD sport luxury premium car, that Audi is no longer the "leader of the pack" -- but I would still argue that Audi is "a" leader "in" the pack. Worthy of being in the class.
The car gods at C&D and R&T and Motor Trend seem to really fawn over both the Acura RL and the new M's from Infiniti -- less so the Lexus for only 1 reason, according to C&D the new Lexus is perfect in every way, but it lacks "passion" (it is somewhat less appealing from their driver's perspective). They can say nothing bad about the Lexus, don't get me wrong, they just don't find it "involving or engaging" when they're behind the wheel.
If someone gave me one of these cars, free of charge (thank you Opra if you're reading this) and I was unable to trade it in or sell it for 50,000 miles, I would be quite pleased to have any of these dandy new AWD Premium Sport Sedans. If, under the conditions of "free," I was given a choice, I would probably take the Audi A6 with a 4.2 engine (remember in my fantasy it is 100% free).
In the real world, however, with a new 5 series BMW in the wings and these three fine Japanese cars now competing for my dollars, the Infiniti -- TODAY -- would win my vote. Why?
Almost a BMW insofar as the way that it handles or so say the Car Magazine writers; almost an Audi in terms of the interior -- so says ME. More power, more content, better warranty, more bang for the buck. The lease on an Infiniti M35x for 39 months including tax and for 15,000 miles per year that has a sticker of $50,240 is $677 with no up front money.
My allroad is $790/mo (same deal essentially and the MSRP was under $50K) -- and a new A6 3.2 similarly equipped and priced (if that is even possible) has a lease number that begins with an "8!" Now, time will tell if the new 5 series AWD can be both a match in content and competitive in price -- hence my qualifier, TODAY. Moreover, it is also possible that Audi Financial will "get aggressive" and meet or beat the global competition (remember there is a V6 STS AWD buzzing about soon, too.)
So I'll take anyone of them for free and thank you very much. They are in many ways comparable cars -- today the Acura and the Infiniti seem to be bearing down hard on the Germans, see they just flashed their lights, as if to say "move over."
Audi and BMW will counter, of that I am certain -- it will be soon, but that may mean a couple of years in the car biz.
Hope these thoughts, opinions and observations are helpful or at the very least interesting.
Next month they will test the GS 430.
Ditto the STS V8 AWD ($62,000+ -- too bad the STS can't be "option unbundled" -- it might be a contender, too, then.)
Considering that the A6 4.2 is, at most, 3/10ths of a second faster than the M35x to 60mph, and that it's fuel economy is worse by at least 1mpg overall (naturally), why the preference for the V8?
Funny thing is, the Audi V8 is quieter than the M's. Is that where the extra $6k-$9k is going?
And, remember, I was in my imaginary world where Opra or somebody had offered me a free Premium Performance Luxury car of my choice -- despite my desire NOT to have a gas guzzler, well, if Opra were to offer me a $59,000 Audi A6 with all the trimmings, I figured why not go for the big dog with great sounding engine, I could afford the $3 buck/gallon gas if my basic car was a gimmie.
When not the beneficiary of Opra's largesse, I would certainly take the 280 HP 270 lb ft of torque engine in the Infiniti any day.
If you want to grin, tho, take either an S4, A6 or A8 for a test drive -- and when the coast is clear, floor it -- the grin-o-meter will go to eleven!
I had the S4 at 110mph with the salesman gripping the armrest and the "oh sh*t" handles for dear life!
I liked the V8 A6, but for the money, I think I'd go for the M35x. If it were the Oprah-car-giveaway scenario, then I might opt for the V8 A6.
Let me ask you this:
Assuming you could get the lowest stated prices listed on this site for both cars:
The M35x w/ Premium Pkg for $51,000 ?
OR
The A6 4.2 fully loaded for $56,000 ?
I would pay for heated rear seats. I have no need for rear seat DVD. I'm not sure I would have passengers who would feel that I had chinzted out on them if they did not have a reclining back seat. And, I have had a rear sunshade in two Audis and I would pay for that.
The Premium package is, in my estimation, leaving money on the table (for Infiniti). Let me buy the options onesey twosey, even if they cost a bit more when not bundled.
For a short moment of time, I actually thought I would consider the new Cadillac STS AWD, but then I found out it was not offered except with a bunch of other stuff that raised the price to over $62,000. I love toys and gadgets and stuff, probably more than the next guy -- but when you take a $40,000 car or even a $48,000 car and force a bunch of options on the buyer to get to the point of being able to order the AWD option for an additional $1900 -- well I'm not your customer.
I understand packages, I am not against them -- but unless something is a prerequisite and there is a good reason for it, don't make me buy a rear seat DVD player to get a $300 sunshade.
So, I'm not interested in the Prem Pak but of the choices you offered assuming no Opra, well -- the Infiniti wins again.
What a revoltin' development.