Luxury Performance Sedans

lexusguy

What is your opinion on my original point though, about how Audi went from soft and warm to cold and hard? Which A6 interior do you like better?

dan339g

Although it pains me, I must agree with your assessment that the A6 interior has taken a turn towards the sterile. This is not to say it is of poor quality or inferior materials, but clearly the emphasis has become focused more on function over form. I don't perceive the new interior as luxurious or stylish as the previous model, despite it's appearance of being more driver oriented. There is little dispute that historically they have been the gold standard for interior design, but this change is consistent with the way they have positioned this vehicle more towards the "sport" end of the spectrum in this segment.

bdr127

But I will not spend another 1,500 words trying to convince someone, anyone, who hasn't seen them in person but has seen the pictures posted here and has concluded the Audi interiors are cheap. Why not?

Well put....

These are perhaps the same people who criticize a car's performance or handling or comfort without even seeing (let alone driving) the car.

bdr127

One little thing I wanted to add about interiors.....

I don't know if anyone else agrees with this sentiment, but I really dislike driving with a steering wheel that has a mix of materials -- in particular, leather and wood. It looks okay, for the most part, but when it actually comes to driving, the difference in texture between one section and the next can really get distracting. I suppose that when I'm making a turn, I like to feel one steady texture all the way around.... no surprises.

Don't know if I made my point very clear.... but anyone know what I'm saying?

merc1

I'm not sure if it just because I was so in love with the previous A6 or that you're right, but I agree here.

The new A6's interior looks cluttered, like they were going for a mini-A8 look, but didn't have the room. The problem is that the climate controls, vents and nav screen are all bunched together and don't look like anything. It pure function, but no form imo. That flat, plain plastic behind the screen also looks very, very plain to me. The old A6 does look better to me.

M

garyh1

I really dislike driving with a steering wheel that has a mix of materials -- in particular, leather and wood. It looks okay, for the most part, but when it actually comes to driving, the difference in texture between one section and the next can really get distracting.

I know what you mean, and I totally agree. it's the thing I like the least about the interior of my Lexus LS. It seems like pure style over function.

merc1

Gasp! Thats exactly what it is, form (and a tacky one at that) over function, imo. Most of Lexus' supporters talk like a luxury car isn't complete with a gaudy wooden steering wheel, and regularly knock the Germans for not having them standard. :confuse: Thank goodness Audi came to their senses and got rid of that truly awful wooden steering wheel on the 2005 A8 W12.


I would have thought most Lexus owners would fall in love with such a steering wheel.

M

merc1

Purely a prestige thing I guess.
It's a good thing for MB that most of its customer base probably doesn't read the magazine comparos.
I haven't read a MB sedan rave in quite a long time.
Does anybody recall a MB sedan coming in at least second in any comparo over the last 5 years?
Yet I wouldn't hesitate for even one second if someone offered me a test drive in an E or an S.

Well the E did win a C&D comparo back in 2003 and it did finish higher than the new 5-Series and A6 in the last C&D comparo. Raves? See the new S-Class or any the E-Class when it first appeared. Magazines are looking for the best when it comes to sport, something Mercedes isn't really trying to do with a car like the E-Class or until recently the C-Class. Magazine comparos aren't going to make or break sales for any brand because the 5-Series, going by the magzines isn't the benchmark it once was, yet it has never been more popular. Come on now, please to imply that Mercedes buyers don't read magazines comparos any less than Lexus, Audi, Jaguar or BMW buyers do - as the reason why Mercedes is still able to sell cars...is a little far fetched. If that was the case, only BMW and now Infiniti would be able to sell anything, because Lexus, Audi, Acura, and poor old Jaguar aren't winning anything either. Its all BMW and Infiniti. These comparos have very little to with who buys what. All of these brands have scored a win here and there with either this class or the full size class (well except Jaguar).

M

markcincinnati

Speaking of Audis and BMWs here only:

I would argue that for a lot of folks their opinion of the interior can be hugely influenced by the color scheme (what Audi used to call atmospheres).

My 2003 allroad had the beige brown cricket leather with a beige dash.

My 2005 A6 has amaretto leather and the dash is black.

I look at this combination as being warm and inviting, comfortable like a fine high-back leather chair in a banker's club.

I probably would be depressed and gloomy if the interior (like so many BMW's) would be black, black, black. All grey, too, would probably look good for a nano second then be cold, sterile and too uber modern for me.

My wife's BMW with its teracotta interior and huge glass sunroof is, likewise, inviting.

lexusguy

"or until recently the C-Class"

It doesnt appear that they've really succeeded at that. C&D tested the C350 "sport" with the MT in the November issue, and did not have a lot of nice things to say about it. They implied that if it had been in their big entry-lux sport comparo, it would've placed 4th or 5th. The last line is what really killed it though, "We were hoping for the poor man's C55, but what we got is the poor man's Benz".

merc1

Well considering their previous efforts I disagree that the test was as bleak as you make it sound. The biggest thing they harped about was the C350 looking like a C230, and a little too much understeer, hardly the loser you make it out to be. All the traditional Benz things - ride, quality, solidity are there, if not the sportiest sedan around.

The actual quote was: "We were awaiting a poor man's C55, and we got what appears to be a poor man's Benz"

You took out the word "appears", big difference LG. I took that as meaning they got what looks like a C230, but isn't. Or in short its more capable than it looks.

A pleasing manual-transmission Benz that doesn't look as special as it should.

Doesn't sound all bad to me, hardly a penalty box. Some of the editors on the side had some good things to say also. It wasn't all bad by any stretch.

C350 Sport

M

rich545

I also happen to find that light wood Audi uses to be pretty horrible, but love the A8 interior with darker wood. My wife's steering wheel is both wood and leather and I don't mind it. It certainly is somewhat Lexus-like though, and I do prefer the full leather wrapped wheel in my car. In general, I think the only thing I don't like about the new Audi interiors is their steering wheels. I just think the center part is too large and looks somewhat like an American car. On another note, I wonder if so many people would have a problem with the screens for MMI, iDrive and COMMAND if they all had the ability to be hidden like they can be in the A8. I thought that was kind of neat how it has the wood covering. Like everything else though, I guess this debate on interiors is a personal preference thing. I like the new Audi interiors better than the previous generation, but others here don't. Go figure.

dewey

I am not one who usually boasts about Acuras but here is some interesting news from Honda:

According to today's Wall Street Journal Honda already has developed a rear-wheel-drive prototype and is weighing the possibility of launching it as the next-generation Acura RL .

With TL torque steer I hope Honda will consider at least a AWD version . A RWD TL would be very interesting.

lexusguy

I like the A8's covered screen a lot. The SC430 has a similar wood cover, and in that car they've managed to make a covered touch screen, which I dont think anyone else has done. The pop up screen in the G35 is nice, but I think the one that Volvo uses is a little too far back in the top of the dash.

Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I just dont find anything particularly luxurious or elegant about a big LCD screen. I'd rather not have to see it if I'm not using it. It would definitely be nice if the LS had something like the SC.

msu79gt82

According to today's Wall Street Journal Honda already has developed a rear-wheel-drive prototype and is weighing the possibility of launching it as the next-generation Acura RL .

What do reports about the next gen-RL appearing so soon after the major RL redesign mean? :confuse: The second-gen RL has only been out one year

lexusguy

I noticed the same bit of info at the end of C&Ds news report about Honda's prototype HCCI hybrid four cylinder engine.

"In related news, the story also said that Honda is considering developing a series of rear-wheel-drive cars and may launch one as the next-generation Acura RL in the U.S." I say, its about time. A SH-AWD car developed from a FE\RWD platform with proper weight distribution could have superb handling.

wale_bate1

Means that Honda doesn't breast its cards as well as Toyota...

tayl0rd

The next thing you know they'll be talking about offering a V8! And everybody knows they don't need that to be competitive! :P

rich545

After seeing how Audi does it, even in the A6 with a flat screen on the dash rather than the extra hump that I have for it in my BMW I'd have to say I wouldn't mind it if BMW would figure out a way to make the screen less obvious. I don't mind the screen much, but if I could hide it when I don't need it I'd be all for that (particularly if it's behind a nice wood panel). Currently I can only turn the screen off. It's intersting that Audi chose not to cover it in the A6 (trying to keep costs down maybe?). I would definitely say that BMW seems to make the screens the most pronounced of any that I've seen.

dan339g

"My 2005 A6 has amaretto leather and the dash is black".

What color is your exterior? I find the amaretto very attactive, but I'm leaning towards "Atlas Gray" for the exterior color, and am not sure how a brown interior goes with a gray exterior. My alternative would be the platinum interior to go with the Gray, but I fear it would look a bit sterile. Keep in mind this from a guy who wears white shirts to work because he has no "color sense" :-)

Thanks.

liferules

I thought I had heard my salesman tell me that the A8's had experienced some problems with the MMI covers breaking down with all the repetitive movement.... maybe that's why they went with the permanent position of the MMI for the A6. I agree, though, I'd like to hide the MMI at times.

proe

Well, I think that is for new NSX. I do not think Honda will ever have RWD except S2000 and NSX. Again, it is like company's decision not to have a V8 in their line up ever.

lexusguy

I wouldnt be so sure about that. I'm pretty sure they are developing a V-10 for the NSX to compete directly against the LF-A. I dont see a car with a Honda badge getting RWD any time soon, but I think there's a good chance for cars like the TL and RL. They know that the TL can never truly compete with the G35 and IS350, because its FWD and they arent. Infiniti and Lexus could easily make 400hp G45s and IS500s, where as the TL is already at the very limit of what FWD can handle. Any more power, and the torque steer will become unmanagable.

bdr127

Infiniti and Lexus could easily make 400hp G45s and IS500s, where as the TL is already at the very limit of what FWD can handle. Any more power, and the torque steer will become unmanagable.

Not that Pontiac/Chevy belongs on this board, but has anyone driven the Grand Prix GXP or Impala SS with the 300+ hp 5.3L engine with FWD? I'd imagine the torque steer would be unbearable.....

jjacura

"Means that Honda doesn't breast its cards as well as Toyota..."

Wale...is that to mean Honda folk "Aren't holding their cards close enough to their vests?"
Shucks we'll just have to tune them in to how we in the West play poker!!

markcincinnati

I have the very dark pearl green color they call Cambridge Green Pearl.

I have seen the car with Black/Amaretto, Silver/Amaretto and my color.

I think it would probably look OK with the Oyster Grey or whatever they call it. I have had the gray interiors and black interiors and ecru interiors and find the more colorful interiors (including Amaretto) to be my preference. Grey, or gray, looks good, don't get me wrong -- it is just somewhat sterile and black is confining.

The red in the TT's was pretty nice as is the Camel in the A8's -- the Amaretto (why does it cost $1000?) is my current fave. It would look good with silver or black or oyster OR Atlas Grey (but that is what Audi has already chosen, or so it seems.)

I think it would look striking, FWIW. :shades:

lexusguy

The Pontiac has an interesting physics band-aid where the front tires are much wider than the rears to help deal with some of the torque steer. From what I've read, its still very present, as is excessive understeer. The Saab 93 Viggen is still the reigning torque steer champion though.

merc1

Yeah interiors are a tricky thing. You simply can't please everyone with interior design I don't think. I too don't like light colored wook either, which MB is also guilty of. Then again I don't like wood so dark to the point of which it looks like plastic. Burl Walnut and soemthing called Zebrano looks good to me, also this new matte style wood in cars like the CLS500 and Infiniti M are just about perfect to my eye. It looks and more importantly feels like real wood.

M

merc1

I had posted a thought about Honda/Acura doing that before in the 2006 TL thread. I'm betting Honda will do one rwd platform for the next TL and RL and a V8. We all know Honda isn't going to do a sedan platform for just one car. The V8 will be shared with their trucks and the next NSX, unless they plan on making that NSX V10 an option on the RL. Wouldn't that rock the luxury-sports sedan establishment.

M

jjacura

A V10....Woooooaaaah!!!! What was Lexusguy talking about earlier...."One of the few cars where you can go fast enough to get arrested on the on-ramp!"...this one might get you arrested leaving the dealers driveway! :P

lexusguy

Somewhat ironic that Honda and Toyota are introducing V-10 engines...as the era of V-10 powered F1 cars is over.

merc1

I don't see Toyota doing a V10. Since F1 is changing to V8s I think Toyota will do a V8 because they'd always said that their Lexus sports car would mimic what was going on in F1. Now Honda I'm not sure about. They still might do a V10 in order to have some type of advantage over all the usual V8 suspects from Ferrari and Ford, and to match Lambo. Anything can change though because I suspect the next NSX is like 3-4 years off?

M

merc1

Well V10s are going out in F1, but most U.S. buyers don't know anything about F1 and V10s are coming into fashion in the real market with the M5, Gallardo, and upcoming Audi S8. The Audi S6/RS6 will likely have a V10 also. I was surprised that Mercedes' new AMG V8 wasn't a V10, then again they'll likely turbocharge it well beyond the stock 503hp anyway. An AMG V10 has been rumored for like 10 years! I like V10s myself, more power (or at least potential) than a V8 without the added complexity/size/weight etc. of the end-all V12.

M

lexusguy

Toyota already confirmed a V-10 for the LF-A, its definitely going to happen.

merc1

Oh really I must have missed that. So the car and the engine have been given the green light for production or is it just that the concept has a V10?

M

lexusguy

The car and engine have the green light, and Toyota has been testing prototypes at the Nurburgring for awhile. Nobody knows when it will actually go on sale, though. One thing is for sure, nobody brings a one off, barely drivable concept to the Nordschleife.

tayl0rd

One thing is for sure, nobody brings a one off, barely drivable concept to the Nordschleife.

Didn't Chrysler test the ME 4-12 there?

lexusguy

The ME four twelve was not a concept car. It was a prototype, with real production parts in it, and supposedly blasted from 0-60 in under 3 seconds, and pulled a 10.6 second 1\4 mile at 136mph. Autoweek even got a chance to drive one. Apparently the fact that it trounced the SLR McLaren did not make Stuttgart pleased, and they put a hold on the 4-12 until they could get the SLR to go faster. The big Benz couldnt go fast enough, so the previous administration killed Chrysler's plans for production. Now that Dieter is in charge, and the M-B\McLaren relationship is over, there are rumors that the ME 4-12 may live to see the light of day after all.

tayl0rd

I sure hope so! Not that I'll ever be able to afford one, but there are enough NFL athletes and rich bankers around here that there's a chance I could see one on the freeway. I saw a nice maroon Murcielago (sp?) a couple of weeks ago.

dewey

I'm betting Honda will do one rwd platform for the next TL and RL and a V8

Based on the article below, Honda has decided not to pursue a V8:

As reported by Detroit News Sept. 14, 2005:

Honda Motor Co. has decided not to build an eight-cylinder engine because high fuel prices are pushing buyers to more efficient motors. The company will focus instead on expanding diesel and gasoline-electric engine output.

"It's not the time to make a V-8," Honda Chief Executive Takeo Fukui said. "We need to focus on diesels and hybrids first."

Refer to the bottom paragraph of this link:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0509/14/C04-314096.htm

tayl0rd

That doesn't make much sense considering diesel costs more than premium these days.

dewey

Based on my understanding the refinery capacity that has been struck by hurricanes had a bigger impact on diesel prices than gasoline prices.

I guess the diesel price premium will go down or become a discount to gasolin in the future when refinery capacity recovers?

cdnpinhead

Diesel fuel demand is less a function of cost than is gasoline. When the prices go up markedly, the trucks & locomotives continue using as much as ever, while automobile consumption often drops, at least for awhile.

Even at a 5% premium, diesel cars deliver sufficiently better fuel mileage to more than make up the difference. I just got back from England, where I drove a rented diesel Citroen minivan (oh boy) over 1200 miles in ten days & averaged a little under 39.5 mpg, going 75-80 on the motorways for well over half of that (at $6.72/U.S. gal, BTW).

markcincinnati

>>>> MEMO: How LPS Cars Could Save the World from Running out of Fuel

LPS cars IN THE US have typically NOT been diesels (and yes there are some noteworthy exceptions, but I am meaning to keep my remarks "general" or typical -- that is, the spirit of what I will be posting is accurate.)

I was lucky enough to attend Audi's winter wonderland driving school in Seefeld, Austria over the course of four different years (always in January). My most recent visit was in 2002 when I was treated to a "top o' the line" Audi A4 quattro sport 2.5T to drive for three days along with 39 other English speaking folks.

Background#1:

On hand were versions of the A4 with gasoline engines and the one noted with a diesel. Only the Audi S4 was more powerful than the 2.5T diesel powered car. Of course the reason was the torque that diesels produce -- and turbo diesels coupled with 6 speed manuals seem especially quick. Much quicker than even the top o' the line A4 V6 (even though the V6 did have a few more ponies than the diesel, the torque and when it was available was far more potent than any A4 gasoline fuel-based car save the S4.)

Background#2:

A Saturday TV show on Spike TV (part of the Spike TV "PowerBloc") sometimes features technology, accessories and other things that are automotive related -- one recent Saturday, the host of the show got on the Internet and ordered a "bio diesel" manufacturing kit, set it up, went to Burger King and got some number of gallons of spent vegetable cooking oil, dumped the cooking oil into the contraption and some time later, ta da, 20 gallons of pure bio-diesel (at a cost of ~ $.70 per gallon for the home brew.)

The host then dumped this 20 gallons of bio-d into a Dodge with a big-honking-diesel engine and took it to the track and onto the street for a "real world" test.

Long story short: the bio-diesel was "imperceptibly" different than petro-diesel. Performance and mileage were "the same" with BugerKing Diesel and with the stuff on sale at the local filling station.

The point?

The basic ingredients of bio-diesel can be grown (corn, soybeans, etc.) and re-grown and re-grown and they are, therefore, "renewable." There is, in theory at least, an unlimited supply of bio-diesel for the making. And, the vehicles equipped with an engine such as the Audi 2.5T diesel are performers in every positive sense of the word and, by extrapolation, would be great in LPS cars.

Hybrids, at this point, are a good concept but the economics -- yet -- don't make sense. Moreover, the ecological impact makes little sense -- at this juncture.

Now, for those who would poo-poo the idea (when is the last time you saw "poo-poo" in print?) of diesel, fine. No problem.

According to the Rand Corporation's August 2005 study on "known petroleum resources in the United states," we have "proven" oil reserves in Colorado and Wyoming that at 2005 consumption levels that could satisfy (sustain) all (100%) of our current consumption for 100 years without ANY imports period.

Or, put another way, the oil that is NOW known in this geography is triple the proven reserves of our suppliers in the middle east. Triple, three times as much -- in fact the Rand Study proclaims that fully 25% of our petroleum consumption for 400 years can be satisfied by the "known" oil in these states mentioned above.

Moreover, the economic impact would be hundreds of thousands of "new" jobs that would be created to extract this primordial goop and these states, noted above, are IN FAVOR of building the requisite plants to extract and distill this "known and proven" raw goop into useable, consumable, burn-able fuel.

Note: it will take about 20 - 30 years to ramp up to that level of "extraction and refinement." But, in the mean time we have other sources of "fuel" including the bio-diesel mentioned above.

LPS cars would be THE BEST place to put these "high zoot" diesel powerplants -- followed by the inevitable trickle down into the "lesser" vehicles in the line of these manufacturers. (Want proof? Lexus is putting the hybrids, the high buck hybrids out in their top o' the line cars first -- more's the pity if you ask me, what a waste of engineering talent -- why not "high zoot" diesel LS400's? Of course the answer is well argued but is at this point illogical.)

Just thought I might stir up some dialog here, folks.

Drive it like you live.

Turbo diesels for me -- would I, if I but could. :confuse:

Always remember: Progeny (or is that ontogeny?) recapitulates phylogeny. :shades:

jjacura

Always remember: Progeny (or is that ontogeny?) recapitulates phylogeny.

I belive that would be ontogeny that more closely aligns with phylogeny but they all relate to the result of a creative effort. except that maybe ontogeny and phylogeny are more closely associated with embryonic development. :shades:

merc1

I didn't see than anywhere about the ME-412 not being approved because of the SLR. Everything I saw stated that managment thought a 400K Chrysler wouldn't sell in enough numbers to make the business case stick. Mercedes already upstaged the SLR with the CLK-DTM AMG. Its a completely better car than the SLR too and Benz still sells it.

M

lexusguy

"The ME 4-12 is not a concept car but a prototype. According to Deutsche Press, around 300 Chrysler ME 4-12 were to be built each year, largely with carbon, aluminum, and other light-weight metals. Road testing was scheduled for late January 2004, with production rumored to start within two years. The car itself was being built in the United States by Metalcrafters, and we have been told that the lead engineer is from Chrysler and the lead suppliers from North America - and that this was the outcome of battles with Stuttgart, which wanted to use European suppliers and engineers. Most off the shelf parts appear to be from Chrysler aside from the engine. The transmission seems to be based on Chrysler, Mercedes, and other designs."

"The rather pricey SLR project can't be beaten so easily by a mere American car, particularly a Chrysler; so prepare to wait a while for ME-412s while Mercedes looks over its blueprints and gets the SLR to go faster. Dieter reportedly got beaten up pretty badly over this, and it may even have been one of the reasons why Wolfgang Bernhard was "de-selected" from the Mercedes-head job. Nothing screams "healthy corporation" like turf wars, right?"

"Eckhard Cordes is leaving, along with Juergen Schrempp; Dieter Zetsche is replacing them. Newspapers report that the ME-412 is one of a number of projects “under active consideration.” In short, it may well be produced after all...along with the Viper-based, Hemi-powered FirePower."

cdnpinhead

It's good to be on the same side of an issue once in awhile.

I've lived in Grand Junction, CO, and Edmonton, AB, so have a basic understanding of oil shale and oil sands. Both, as you pointed out, are available in huge quantities. . .at a price. Besides which, there are a lot of capped natural gas wells around Farmington (NM).

The Arabs aren't in nearly the driver's seat that many think they are. Even they know it -- they're not happy when the prices get too high, and prices are at levels now to renew the interest in Rifle, Vernal & Rangely (oil shale), as well as Ft. McMurray (oil sands). The smart money has already run up many of the relevant stocks, but there's still room to grow.

The system is about to work, and it'll stun the doomsday set. The biodiesel thing could also be a good thing, but I've not yet heard what the break-even is for the truly made-from-scratch stuff -- too many people are waxing poetic about the essentially garbage price for which they can acquire used cooking oil. Time will tell.

All that said, diesels in luxury vehicles are a very good thing. Torque rules, & even though I listen to right-wing radio, I appreciate 40 mpg.

jlbl

"All that said, diesels in luxury vehicles are a very good thing. Torque rules, & … appreciate 40 mpg."

You may add as well that Diesel engines endure much more mileage. This adds up to the resale value of a Diesel car— LPS indeed included—at least here in Europe.

José

merc1

Yikes! Never saw that before. Where is that quote from?

M